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A reminder about crowdfunding

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Comments

  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 2,560
    Hrimnir said:
    Kyleran said:
    Hrimnir said:
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    Intentionally being obtuse?
    No.  I just don't understand why people get so worked up over what people do with their own money.

    It takes away people's agency.  You're basically saying (not you specifically) that people are incapable of assessing the risk, determining the value of their purchase, etc and so forth, and that some external entity (usually government) needs to make sure these people aren't "taken advantage" of.

    Now, i'm all for laws about having to be transparent and not literally try to swindle people, but as long as the company isn't hiding something intentionally for that purpose, then its frankly none of anyone's business what two independent parties choose to do with each other.

    Now, this is a different issue with children (which is a separate argument as to what defines a child in the sense of personal agency) and that would be under the purview of the government to regulate.

    Anyways, i'm ranting so i'll shutup now.
    In today's society, nothing occurs in a vacuum.

    You pay more for health insurance today (assuming you're from the U.S.) because an overwhelming number of Americans refuse to exercise and eat processed sugar 22 hours out of every day.  Your damn right I feel strongly they should put down the donut and pick up the dumbbell, because preventative care is vastly cheaper than treating type 2 diabetes.


    Consumer activity influences the market we all participate in.  As many here mention whenever we discuss these kinds of things: if people weren't buying in, companies wouldn't be pursuing these goals.
    I %100 agree with everything you say. The point that I am typing this while eating a huge piece of cake doesn't matter :D
    KyleranMadFrenchieKumapon
    Currently playing: Witcher 3 (Xbox One X), TemTem

    Currently Reading: Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive Book 3)

    Currently Writing: Champions of Legend Book 1 (2nd Draft)


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,894
    Hrimnir said:
    Kyleran said:
    Hrimnir said:
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    Intentionally being obtuse?
    No.  I just don't understand why people get so worked up over what people do with their own money.

    It takes away people's agency.  You're basically saying (not you specifically) that people are incapable of assessing the risk, determining the value of their purchase, etc and so forth, and that some external entity (usually government) needs to make sure these people aren't "taken advantage" of.

    Now, i'm all for laws about having to be transparent and not literally try to swindle people, but as long as the company isn't hiding something intentionally for that purpose, then its frankly none of anyone's business what two independent parties choose to do with each other.

    Now, this is a different issue with children (which is a separate argument as to what defines a child in the sense of personal agency) and that would be under the purview of the government to regulate.

    Anyways, i'm ranting so i'll shutup now.
    In today's society, nothing occurs in a vacuum.

    You pay more for health insurance today (assuming you're from the U.S.) because an overwhelming number of Americans refuse to exercise and eat processed sugar 22 hours out of every day.  Your damn right I feel strongly they should put down the donut and pick up the dumbbell, because preventative care is vastly cheaper than treating type 2 diabetes.


    Consumer activity influences the market we all participate in.  As many here mention whenever we discuss these kinds of things: if people weren't buying in, companies wouldn't be pursuing these goals.
    Keeping in mind the big food industry actively promotes high carb, processed sugar foods, just look at the shelves of any grocery store.

    So perhaps they also share part of the blame?
    Gdemami

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 2,560
    edited May 2019
    Kyleran said:
    Hrimnir said:
    Kyleran said:
    Hrimnir said:
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    Intentionally being obtuse?
    No.  I just don't understand why people get so worked up over what people do with their own money.

    It takes away people's agency.  You're basically saying (not you specifically) that people are incapable of assessing the risk, determining the value of their purchase, etc and so forth, and that some external entity (usually government) needs to make sure these people aren't "taken advantage" of.

    Now, i'm all for laws about having to be transparent and not literally try to swindle people, but as long as the company isn't hiding something intentionally for that purpose, then its frankly none of anyone's business what two independent parties choose to do with each other.

    Now, this is a different issue with children (which is a separate argument as to what defines a child in the sense of personal agency) and that would be under the purview of the government to regulate.

    Anyways, i'm ranting so i'll shutup now.
    In today's society, nothing occurs in a vacuum.

    You pay more for health insurance today (assuming you're from the U.S.) because an overwhelming number of Americans refuse to exercise and eat processed sugar 22 hours out of every day.  Your damn right I feel strongly they should put down the donut and pick up the dumbbell, because preventative care is vastly cheaper than treating type 2 diabetes.


    Consumer activity influences the market we all participate in.  As many here mention whenever we discuss these kinds of things: if people weren't buying in, companies wouldn't be pursuing these goals.
    Keeping in mind the big food industry actively promotes high carb, processed sugar foods, just look at the shelves of any grocery store.

    So perhaps they also share part of the blame?
    I would say so. The FCC recently just spoke about how internet should be up to the internet provider how its distrubed. Going so far as to say that you may compare it to a grocery story where you may get coupons or BOGO sales. 

    This is the reason why I believe Google Stadia won't work. They are going to turn up the fire slowly on us when it comes to internet prices
    Gdemami
    Currently playing: Witcher 3 (Xbox One X), TemTem

    Currently Reading: Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive Book 3)

    Currently Writing: Champions of Legend Book 1 (2nd Draft)


  • aummoidaummoid Member UncommonPosts: 82
    Hrimnir said:
    Kyleran said:
    Hrimnir said:
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    Intentionally being obtuse?
    Now, i'm all for laws about having to be transparent and not literally try to swindle people, but as long as the company isn't hiding something intentionally for that purpose, then its frankly none of anyone's business what two independent parties choose to do with each other.
    Just think of how much money companies could save if they just replaced their entire regulatory structure with the boilerplate "Although our company may end up swindling people, that is not our intent. So it's frankly none of your business what we choose to do with our customers/employees/shareholders."
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited May 2019
    Kyleran said:
    Hrimnir said:
    Kyleran said:
    Hrimnir said:
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    Intentionally being obtuse?
    No.  I just don't understand why people get so worked up over what people do with their own money.

    It takes away people's agency.  You're basically saying (not you specifically) that people are incapable of assessing the risk, determining the value of their purchase, etc and so forth, and that some external entity (usually government) needs to make sure these people aren't "taken advantage" of.

    Now, i'm all for laws about having to be transparent and not literally try to swindle people, but as long as the company isn't hiding something intentionally for that purpose, then its frankly none of anyone's business what two independent parties choose to do with each other.

    Now, this is a different issue with children (which is a separate argument as to what defines a child in the sense of personal agency) and that would be under the purview of the government to regulate.

    Anyways, i'm ranting so i'll shutup now.
    In today's society, nothing occurs in a vacuum.

    You pay more for health insurance today (assuming you're from the U.S.) because an overwhelming number of Americans refuse to exercise and eat processed sugar 22 hours out of every day.  Your damn right I feel strongly they should put down the donut and pick up the dumbbell, because preventative care is vastly cheaper than treating type 2 diabetes.


    Consumer activity influences the market we all participate in.  As many here mention whenever we discuss these kinds of things: if people weren't buying in, companies wouldn't be pursuing these goals.
    Keeping in mind the big food industry actively promotes high carb, processed sugar foods, just look at the shelves of any grocery store.

    So perhaps they also share part of the blame?
    Absolutely.  But why do they make these items?  Because they sell well.  That sounds familiar, right?

    Life is far more complex today than it was in the past.  Consumers don't have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate every product, product agreement, or business entity they encounter on a daily basis.  To leave consumers to the mercy of such a deluge of unknowns is as good as giving the okay to exploit said consumers.

    EDIT- if you think you keep a good handle on the things you encounter every day as a consumer to ensure you aren't getting screwed, answer this: the last time you purchased gas, did you confirm the pump had the certification markings indicating it had been inspected properly and within the required timeframe?  Do you even know what the "required timeframe" is?  Do you even know what those inspectors are testing the pump for?
    Gdemami

    image
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 971



    Life is far more complex today than it was in the past.  Consumers don't have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate every product, product agreement, or business entity they encounter on a daily basis.  To leave consumers to the mercy of such a deluge of unknowns is as good as giving the okay to exploit said consumers.

    Life is more complex today than in the past?  In no time in the history of the world have people been more protected by law and legislation from scammers and hucksters and bad purchases, nor had easy and instantaneous access to all the information in the world.

    There has never been an easier time to live both physically and mentally, or a time where dummies have been more protected and insolated from the consequences of their own bad decisions.  The fact we are talking about how video games get funded so we have more bullshit to fill our ample free time in a care free way like even most aristocrats in history haven't.

    Every standard that tracks quality of life and improvement of life is consistent.  Social mobility, choice of profession, etc, all are consistent and show life has never been better and easier for the average person in industrialized countries including the second world, and is markedly improved and improving for the third world.  

    What exact period of history and region did the average consumer have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate anything?  Never mind bullshit hobby financing options for games?
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited May 2019
    blamo2000 said:



    Life is far more complex today than it was in the past.  Consumers don't have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate every product, product agreement, or business entity they encounter on a daily basis.  To leave consumers to the mercy of such a deluge of unknowns is as good as giving the okay to exploit said consumers.

    Life is more complex today than in the past?  In no time in the history of the world have people been more protected by law and legislation from scammers and hucksters and bad purchases, nor had easy and instantaneous access to all the information in the world.

    There has never been an easier time to live both physically and mentally, or a time where dummies have been more protected and insolated from the consequences of their own bad decisions.  The fact we are talking about how video games get funded so we have more bullshit to fill our ample free time in a care free way like even most aristocrats in history haven't.

    Every standard that tracks quality of life and improvement of life is consistent.  Social mobility, choice of profession, etc, all are consistent and show life has never been better and easier for the average person in industrialized countries including the second world, and is markedly improved and improving for the third world.  

    What exact period of history and region did the average consumer have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate anything?  Never mind bullshit hobby financing options for games?
    Where did I say quality of life was lower?


    If you don't think testing gas quality or coding programs that connect users over thousands of miles via the internet, is more complex than inspecting animals/animal meat for visible signs of illness/rot or crops for signs of rot, I don't know what to tell you.  If you don't notice the exponential increase in companies and "agreements" with companies made by consumers on the daily compared to the past, I don't know what to tell you.

    You're arguing a complete red herring.
    Gdemami

    image
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,040
    blamo2000 said:



    Life is far more complex today than it was in the past.  Consumers don't have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate every product, product agreement, or business entity they encounter on a daily basis.  To leave consumers to the mercy of such a deluge of unknowns is as good as giving the okay to exploit said consumers.

    Life is more complex today than in the past?  In no time in the history of the world have people been more protected by law and legislation from scammers and hucksters and bad purchases, nor had easy and instantaneous access to all the information in the world.

    There has never been an easier time to live both physically and mentally, or a time where dummies have been more protected and insolated from the consequences of their own bad decisions.  The fact we are talking about how video games get funded so we have more bullshit to fill our ample free time in a care free way like even most aristocrats in history haven't.

    Every standard that tracks quality of life and improvement of life is consistent.  Social mobility, choice of profession, etc, all are consistent and show life has never been better and easier for the average person in industrialized countries including the second world, and is markedly improved and improving for the third world.  

    What exact period of history and region did the average consumer have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate anything?  Never mind bullshit hobby financing options for games?
    Where did I say quality of life was lower?


    If you don't think testing gas quality or coding programs that connect users over thousands of miles via the internet, is more complex than inspecting animals/animal meat for visible signs of illness/rot or crops for signs of rot, I don't know what to tell you.  If you don't notice the exponential increase in companies and "agreements" with companies made by consumers on the daily compared to the past, I don't know what to tell you.

    You're arguing a complete red herring.
    Back in the day you didn’t even have a red herring, everything was in black and white. Easier I tell you!

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    MadFrenchieKyleran
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • jonp200jonp200 Member UncommonPosts: 455
    We can vote with our dollars.  I funded both of Larian Studios recent Divinity games and got more than I asked for including updates post launch.  Wasteland 2 was another successful funding.  Underworld Ascendant by contrast was a huge disappointment; surprising given the history of those working on the game. Will I look at System Shock 2?  No way.  

    Efforts like Star Citizen and COE are examples of game in development ruining this channel but there are really no consequences for them failing to deliver on their original pitch.  Development runs over; that's a given but there is a difference between overruns and simply looking for more cash to sustain operations. 

    Star Citizen (CIG)  has essentially run out of the money crowd-funded (Which is incredible) and needs ongoing revenue to continue working on the game.  I doubt we'll ever see anything from COE although they continue to sell vapor.

    For me, it's risk/reward.  I have had a few good experiences funding a game but the majority have not ended well so I'm out. No more Kickstarter for this guy.

    Seaspite
    Playing ESO on my X-Box


  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    lahnmir said:
    blamo2000 said:



    Life is far more complex today than it was in the past.  Consumers don't have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate every product, product agreement, or business entity they encounter on a daily basis.  To leave consumers to the mercy of such a deluge of unknowns is as good as giving the okay to exploit said consumers.

    Life is more complex today than in the past?  In no time in the history of the world have people been more protected by law and legislation from scammers and hucksters and bad purchases, nor had easy and instantaneous access to all the information in the world.

    There has never been an easier time to live both physically and mentally, or a time where dummies have been more protected and insolated from the consequences of their own bad decisions.  The fact we are talking about how video games get funded so we have more bullshit to fill our ample free time in a care free way like even most aristocrats in history haven't.

    Every standard that tracks quality of life and improvement of life is consistent.  Social mobility, choice of profession, etc, all are consistent and show life has never been better and easier for the average person in industrialized countries including the second world, and is markedly improved and improving for the third world.  

    What exact period of history and region did the average consumer have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate anything?  Never mind bullshit hobby financing options for games?
    Where did I say quality of life was lower?


    If you don't think testing gas quality or coding programs that connect users over thousands of miles via the internet, is more complex than inspecting animals/animal meat for visible signs of illness/rot or crops for signs of rot, I don't know what to tell you.  If you don't notice the exponential increase in companies and "agreements" with companies made by consumers on the daily compared to the past, I don't know what to tell you.

    You're arguing a complete red herring.
    Back in the day you didn’t even have a red herring, everything was in black and white. Easier I tell you!

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    And you couldn't even get a herring at all if you didn't live on the coast!
    lahnmir

    image
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,030
    blamo2000 said:



    Life is far more complex today than it was in the past.  Consumers don't have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate every product, product agreement, or business entity they encounter on a daily basis.  To leave consumers to the mercy of such a deluge of unknowns is as good as giving the okay to exploit said consumers.

    Life is more complex today than in the past?  In no time in the history of the world have people been more protected by law and legislation from scammers and hucksters and bad purchases, nor had easy and instantaneous access to all the information in the world.

    There has never been an easier time to live both physically and mentally, or a time where dummies have been more protected and insolated from the consequences of their own bad decisions.  The fact we are talking about how video games get funded so we have more bullshit to fill our ample free time in a care free way like even most aristocrats in history haven't.

    Every standard that tracks quality of life and improvement of life is consistent.  Social mobility, choice of profession, etc, all are consistent and show life has never been better and easier for the average person in industrialized countries including the second world, and is markedly improved and improving for the third world.  

    What exact period of history and region did the average consumer have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate anything?  Never mind bullshit hobby financing options for games?
    Very good assessment of life today. 
    Unfortunately it's ALSO a time where money and paychecks don't keep up with necessities at least for the middle class here in the west. I have a saying among my middle class hard working friends.... "their is no such thing as enough money". 

    Their is also a lack of well paying jobs and full time work for the hard working less educated people trying to get by.  3 jobs, yet can't afford an apartment.

    Sorry, got off topic
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 971
    blamo2000 said:



    Life is far more complex today than it was in the past.  Consumers don't have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate every product, product agreement, or business entity they encounter on a daily basis.  To leave consumers to the mercy of such a deluge of unknowns is as good as giving the okay to exploit said consumers.

    Life is more complex today than in the past?  In no time in the history of the world have people been more protected by law and legislation from scammers and hucksters and bad purchases, nor had easy and instantaneous access to all the information in the world.

    There has never been an easier time to live both physically and mentally, or a time where dummies have been more protected and insolated from the consequences of their own bad decisions.  The fact we are talking about how video games get funded so we have more bullshit to fill our ample free time in a care free way like even most aristocrats in history haven't.

    Every standard that tracks quality of life and improvement of life is consistent.  Social mobility, choice of profession, etc, all are consistent and show life has never been better and easier for the average person in industrialized countries including the second world, and is markedly improved and improving for the third world.  

    What exact period of history and region did the average consumer have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate anything?  Never mind bullshit hobby financing options for games?
    Where did I say quality of life was lower?


    If you don't think testing gas quality or coding programs that connect users over thousands of miles via the internet, is more complex than inspecting animals/animal meat for visible signs of illness/rot or crops for signs of rot, I don't know what to tell you.  If you don't notice the exponential increase in companies and "agreements" with companies made by consumers on the daily compared to the past, I don't know what to tell you.

    You're arguing a complete red herring.
    How does gas quality or coding programs that connect users over thousands of miles via the internet make my life more complex?  I'm not even sure twitter is a more complex system than the USPS 100 years ago.  From a systems perspective I think Senge would agree with me.

    What is needed to be known to survive is now far more negligible than it has ever been in history.

    You can move the goal-post and call it a red herring but tell me how exactly I need to know more today about gas quality than, say, in the 20s, 50s, or 80s when knowing more about gas would actually impact me because I would most likely have to fix my own vehicle?  AT the least that knowledge would be more valuable and applicable, unlike know where it is completely unnecessary for me to know.

    If you are saying there is more knowledge needed for specific specialties I agree.  And as we discover more and more knowledge there will be more and more specialties, and I will need to know less and less to get by life outside of my specialty.  And I will have more and more easily available instant access to all the free information on all subjects that aren't censored.  

    What is my proof?  Almost no one dies today because they don't know about gas quality or coding programs or basically anything.  If an EMP went off over the earth billions of people would die from actual lack of knowledge.  If some sort of EMP went off that brought just the US back to 50s technologies we'd still have millions and millions of people die.  Who wouldn't die in either situation?  People in Jungle tribes in Africa, South America, and Asia that know absolutely nothing about gas quality and coding programs.  

    I assert that life is infinitely less complex now than it has ever been and the amount of knowledge or even cooperation with others needed to survive and live comfortably has never been less or less of a burden for the average person. 
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,211
    In marketing its legal to misrepresent, you just need to make sure you include a disclaimer.
    Gdemami

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,202
    edited May 2019
    Hrimnir said:
    Kyleran said:
    Hrimnir said:
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    Intentionally being obtuse?
    No.  I just don't understand why people get so worked up over what people do with their own money.

    It takes away people's agency.  You're basically saying (not you specifically) that people are incapable of assessing the risk, determining the value of their purchase, etc and so forth, and that some external entity (usually government) needs to make sure these people aren't "taken advantage" of.

    Now, i'm all for laws about having to be transparent and not literally try to swindle people, but as long as the company isn't hiding something intentionally for that purpose, then its frankly none of anyone's business what two independent parties choose to do with each other.

    Now, this is a different issue with children (which is a separate argument as to what defines a child in the sense of personal agency) and that would be under the purview of the government to regulate.

    Anyways, i'm ranting so i'll shutup now.
    In today's society, nothing occurs in a vacuum.

    You pay more for health insurance today (assuming you're from the U.S.) because an overwhelming number of Americans refuse to exercise and eat processed sugar 22 hours out of every day.  Your damn right I feel strongly they should put down the donut and pick up the dumbbell, because preventative care is vastly cheaper than treating type 2 diabetes.


    Consumer activity influences the market we all participate in.  As many here mention whenever we discuss these kinds of things: if people weren't buying in, companies wouldn't be pursuing these goals.
    You seem to be implying that other people donating to the kickstarter will have a negative impact on you.  What impact exactly are you fearful of?  Specify please.

    And if you arent really sure what that is, then you dont really know if it might not be a positive impact.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    svann said:
    Hrimnir said:
    Kyleran said:
    Hrimnir said:
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    Intentionally being obtuse?
    No.  I just don't understand why people get so worked up over what people do with their own money.

    It takes away people's agency.  You're basically saying (not you specifically) that people are incapable of assessing the risk, determining the value of their purchase, etc and so forth, and that some external entity (usually government) needs to make sure these people aren't "taken advantage" of.

    Now, i'm all for laws about having to be transparent and not literally try to swindle people, but as long as the company isn't hiding something intentionally for that purpose, then its frankly none of anyone's business what two independent parties choose to do with each other.

    Now, this is a different issue with children (which is a separate argument as to what defines a child in the sense of personal agency) and that would be under the purview of the government to regulate.

    Anyways, i'm ranting so i'll shutup now.
    In today's society, nothing occurs in a vacuum.

    You pay more for health insurance today (assuming you're from the U.S.) because an overwhelming number of Americans refuse to exercise and eat processed sugar 22 hours out of every day.  Your damn right I feel strongly they should put down the donut and pick up the dumbbell, because preventative care is vastly cheaper than treating type 2 diabetes.


    Consumer activity influences the market we all participate in.  As many here mention whenever we discuss these kinds of things: if people weren't buying in, companies wouldn't be pursuing these goals.
    You seem to be implying that other people donating to the kickstarter will have a negative impact on you.  What impact exactly are you fearful of?  Specify please.

    And if you arent really sure what that is, then you dont really know if it might not be a positive impact.
    The entire conversation started on the premise that these purchases aren't made in a vacuum.  Folks throwing millions at crowdfunding encourage more crowdfunding attempts by devs.  Those of us who see crowdfunding as a piss poor replacement would obviously be affected by more and more dev studios using it.
    KyleranGdemami

    image
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited May 2019
    blamo2000 said:
    blamo2000 said:



    Life is far more complex today than it was in the past.  Consumers don't have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate every product, product agreement, or business entity they encounter on a daily basis.  To leave consumers to the mercy of such a deluge of unknowns is as good as giving the okay to exploit said consumers.

    Life is more complex today than in the past?  In no time in the history of the world have people been more protected by law and legislation from scammers and hucksters and bad purchases, nor had easy and instantaneous access to all the information in the world.

    There has never been an easier time to live both physically and mentally, or a time where dummies have been more protected and insolated from the consequences of their own bad decisions.  The fact we are talking about how video games get funded so we have more bullshit to fill our ample free time in a care free way like even most aristocrats in history haven't.

    Every standard that tracks quality of life and improvement of life is consistent.  Social mobility, choice of profession, etc, all are consistent and show life has never been better and easier for the average person in industrialized countries including the second world, and is markedly improved and improving for the third world.  

    What exact period of history and region did the average consumer have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate anything?  Never mind bullshit hobby financing options for games?
    Where did I say quality of life was lower?


    If you don't think testing gas quality or coding programs that connect users over thousands of miles via the internet, is more complex than inspecting animals/animal meat for visible signs of illness/rot or crops for signs of rot, I don't know what to tell you.  If you don't notice the exponential increase in companies and "agreements" with companies made by consumers on the daily compared to the past, I don't know what to tell you.

    You're arguing a complete red herring.
    How does gas quality or coding programs that connect users over thousands of miles via the internet make my life more complex?  I'm not even sure twitter is a more complex system than the USPS 100 years ago.  From a systems perspective I think Senge would agree with me.

    What is needed to be known to survive is now far more negligible than it has ever been in history.

    You can move the goal-post and call it a red herring but tell me how exactly I need to know more today about gas quality than, say, in the 20s, 50s, or 80s when knowing more about gas would actually impact me because I would most likely have to fix my own vehicle?  AT the least that knowledge would be more valuable and applicable, unlike know where it is completely unnecessary for me to know.

    If you are saying there is more knowledge needed for specific specialties I agree.  And as we discover more and more knowledge there will be more and more specialties, and I will need to know less and less to get by life outside of my specialty.  And I will have more and more easily available instant access to all the free information on all subjects that aren't censored.  

    What is my proof?  Almost no one dies today because they don't know about gas quality or coding programs or basically anything.  If an EMP went off over the earth billions of people would die from actual lack of knowledge.  If some sort of EMP went off that brought just the US back to 50s technologies we'd still have millions and millions of people die.  Who wouldn't die in either situation?  People in Jungle tribes in Africa, South America, and Asia that know absolutely nothing about gas quality and coding programs.  

    I assert that life is infinitely less complex now than it has ever been and the amount of knowledge or even cooperation with others needed to survive and live comfortably has never been less or less of a burden for the average person. 
    You miss the point again.

    You don't die, but if the gas pumps weren't inspected, you'd likely regularly get fucked by inaccuracies (accidental or intentional) in the pump's measurements of the amount of fuel you pump.  Guess why that's super rare?  Because these pumps are inspected.


    Same with meat processing.  You don't live in constant fear of salmonella or e. coli in no small part due to the fact that the government enforces safety standards.  How would you spot e. coli in your meat, even with Google on your side?  Don't worry, I'll wait.


    Your argument has continued to be a red herring, either out of ignorance of my actual point or an intentional misrepresentation of it.
    Gdemami

    image
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 971
    edited May 2019

    You miss the point again.

    You don't die, but if the gas pumps weren't inspected, you'd likely regularly get fucked by inaccuracies (accidental or intentional) in the pump's measurements of the amount of fuel you pump.  Guess why that's super rare?  Because these pumps are inspected.


    Same with meat processing.  You don't live in constant fear of salmonella or e. coli in no small part due to the fact that the government enforces safety standards.  How would you spot e. coli in your meat, even with Google on your side?  Don't worry, I'll wait.


    Your argument has continued to be a red herring, either out of ignorance of my actual point or an intentional misrepresentation of it.
    Again, tell me another time or region where my safety and very life required less knowledge on my part?

    Stop moving the goal-post and telling me my replies are red herrings.  This is a direct quote from you-

    "Life is far more complex today than it was in the past.  Consumers don't have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate every product, product agreement, or business entity they encounter on a daily basis.  To leave consumers to the mercy of such a deluge of unknowns is as good as giving the okay to exploit said consumers."

    All I am asking is for you to tell me another time and region where that statement is actually correct.  Where life was actually less complex.  When consumers had less expertise, time, and resources than they do today to investigate products, product agreements, or business entities.  

    Just give me answers instead of saying me daring to question this assertment is a red herring.  From my understanding red herring is an attempt to distract from a relevant and important issue.  You said X.  I am specifically saying X is absurdly false and asking for examples so i can betetr udnerstand, and you are calling it a red herring.  Its like how all the kids just like to throw out the term strawman without actually knowing what it means or when it doesn't apply.  

    Maybe you're right and I'm wrong - but if you refuse to articulate or give examples we will never know.  
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,202
    edited May 2019
    svann said:
    Hrimnir said:
    Kyleran said:
    Hrimnir said:
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    Intentionally being obtuse?
    No.  I just don't understand why people get so worked up over what people do with their own money.

    It takes away people's agency.  You're basically saying (not you specifically) that people are incapable of assessing the risk, determining the value of their purchase, etc and so forth, and that some external entity (usually government) needs to make sure these people aren't "taken advantage" of.

    Now, i'm all for laws about having to be transparent and not literally try to swindle people, but as long as the company isn't hiding something intentionally for that purpose, then its frankly none of anyone's business what two independent parties choose to do with each other.

    Now, this is a different issue with children (which is a separate argument as to what defines a child in the sense of personal agency) and that would be under the purview of the government to regulate.

    Anyways, i'm ranting so i'll shutup now.
    In today's society, nothing occurs in a vacuum.

    You pay more for health insurance today (assuming you're from the U.S.) because an overwhelming number of Americans refuse to exercise and eat processed sugar 22 hours out of every day.  Your damn right I feel strongly they should put down the donut and pick up the dumbbell, because preventative care is vastly cheaper than treating type 2 diabetes.


    Consumer activity influences the market we all participate in.  As many here mention whenever we discuss these kinds of things: if people weren't buying in, companies wouldn't be pursuing these goals.
    You seem to be implying that other people donating to the kickstarter will have a negative impact on you.  What impact exactly are you fearful of?  Specify please.

    And if you arent really sure what that is, then you dont really know if it might not be a positive impact.
    The entire conversation started on the premise that these purchases aren't made in a vacuum.  Folks throwing millions at crowdfunding encourage more crowdfunding attempts by devs.  Those of us who see crowdfunding as a piss poor replacement would obviously be affected by more and more dev studios using it.
    So your fear is that crowd funded titles will take something away from all the good(?!) titles coming from normal funding.  I dont see it.   These titles are crowd funded because they couldnt get normal funding.  They arent taking anything way from the pool of normally funded titles. 
    Post edited by svann on
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited May 2019
    blamo2000 said:

    You miss the point again.

    You don't die, but if the gas pumps weren't inspected, you'd likely regularly get fucked by inaccuracies (accidental or intentional) in the pump's measurements of the amount of fuel you pump.  Guess why that's super rare?  Because these pumps are inspected.


    Same with meat processing.  You don't live in constant fear of salmonella or e. coli in no small part due to the fact that the government enforces safety standards.  How would you spot e. coli in your meat, even with Google on your side?  Don't worry, I'll wait.


    Your argument has continued to be a red herring, either out of ignorance of my actual point or an intentional misrepresentation of it.
    Again, tell me another time or region where my safety and very life required less knowledge on my part?

    Stop moving the goal-post and telling me my replies are red herrings.  This is a direct quote from you-

    "Life is far more complex today than it was in the past.  Consumers don't have the expertise, time, or resources to properly investigate every product, product agreement, or business entity they encounter on a daily basis.  To leave consumers to the mercy of such a deluge of unknowns is as good as giving the okay to exploit said consumers."

    All I am asking is for you to tell me another time and region where that statement is actually correct.  Where life was actually less complex.  When consumers had less expertise, time, and resources than they do today to investigate products, product agreements, or business entities.  

    Just give me answers instead of saying me daring to question this assertment is a red herring.  From my understanding red herring is an attempt to distract from a relevant and important issue.  You said X.  I am specifically saying X is absurdly false and asking for examples so i can betetr udnerstand, and you are calling it a red herring.  Its like how all the kids just like to throw out the term strawman without actually knowing what it means or when it doesn't apply.  

    Maybe you're right and I'm wrong - but if you refuse to articulate or give examples we will never know.  
    Literally the part you quoted has zero to do with life or death situations, which I've not ever talked about. The only person trying to change the discussion is you, via making if about a general quality of life and claiming the internet fixes all consumer woes, when I never discussed such (thus, red herring).  How many EULAs did the average person agree to in the 50s?  How many ToSs?  How many times did they use a software product at all?  Hell, how many would even have the word "algorithm" in their vocabulary?  Checking food for signs of rot requires far less information and knowledge than trying to deduce whether a video games algorithm is attempting to push you to the shop via matchmaking.  And these complex software products permeate every area of our lives, all with their own agreements and terms.

    I've given you examples.  I've articulated it.  You refuse to accept it.


    If you don't wanna believe me, read on: https://necsi.edu/complexity-rising-from-human-beings-to-human-civilization-a-complexity-profile

    They study it at a bird's eye level, with frequent references to things like global supply markets influencing the price of goods.  We become more interconnected and the products and systems we use daily have become much more complex.  Period.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on
    Gdemami

    image
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 971

    Literally the part you quoted has zero to do with life or death situations, which I've not ever talked about. The only person trying to change the discussion is you, via making if about a general quality of life and claiming the internet fixes all consumer woes, when I never discussed such (thus, red herring).  How many EULAs did the average person agree to in the 50s?  How many ToSs?  How many times did they use a software product at all?  Hell, how many would even have the word "algorithm" in their vocabulary?  Checking food for signs of rot requires far less information and knowledge than trying to deduce whether a video games algorithm is attempting to push you to the shop via matchmaking.  And these complex software products permeate every area of our lives, all with their own agreements and terms.

    I've given you examples.  I've articulated it.  You refuse to accept it.


    If you don't wanna believe me, read on: https://necsi.edu/complexity-rising-from-human-beings-to-human-civilization-a-complexity-profile

    They study it at a bird's eye level, with frequent references to things like global supply markets influencing the price of goods.  We become more interconnected and the products and systems we use daily have become much more complex.  Period.

    So, because life has become so easy and filled with frivolous nonsense that people have so much free time they don’t read or seem to care about all the ToS and EUAs they blindly accept to have access to all their free frivolous crap to fill their mostly carefree and easy lives?

    The horror and utter impossible complexity of modern life.  When I first got into my field it required I do a ton of calculus.  There were formulas we all knew by heart.  Now we have complex systems that do most of my job for us, and even our more advanced decision making is more formulaic and system determined than anything.  Complex systems have made my once extremely complex profession pretty fucking easy.

    I 100% agree knowledge has increased and a lot of systems have become more complex, but they have become easier to manage for people logistically.  And life in the first world for most people has become far less complex, requires less knowledge, trying, and effort.  

    And people don’t have relationships with businesses.  They have transactions.  Relationships denotes you have a say in how the transactions occur.  We don’t.  You cannot negotiate the ToS and EULA.  You accept or do not.  For the vast majority of people what is in the ToS or EULA is irrelevant.  Do you want the product or not?  If you do you accept.  If you don’t you never start the transaction to get to the ToS or EULA.  This is far simpler and far less complex than in the past when there were actual relationships between a business and their customers.  Banks have become homogenized mega-institutes thanks to government regulations in the US that forced most small banks to close “to protect consumers.”  When I was younger choosing a bank was a big deal because they offered different things.  CD rates varied widely between banks.  As did customer service, fees, etc.  Now they are just a homogenous, faceless, mega-corp that are all exactly the same.  

    Your super complex world of today is just an empty, soulless shell devoid of actual relationship between consumers and businesses.  

    And the one way games got funded that actually fostered some sort of actual necessary relationship between developer and player you are against?  Go evil mega-corp publishers?  No thank you.

  • asteldiancaliskanasteldiancaliskan Member UncommonPosts: 58
    svann said:
    Hrimnir said:
    Kyleran said:
    Hrimnir said:
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    Intentionally being obtuse?
    No.  I just don't understand why people get so worked up over what people do with their own money.

    It takes away people's agency.  You're basically saying (not you specifically) that people are incapable of assessing the risk, determining the value of their purchase, etc and so forth, and that some external entity (usually government) needs to make sure these people aren't "taken advantage" of.

    Now, i'm all for laws about having to be transparent and not literally try to swindle people, but as long as the company isn't hiding something intentionally for that purpose, then its frankly none of anyone's business what two independent parties choose to do with each other.

    Now, this is a different issue with children (which is a separate argument as to what defines a child in the sense of personal agency) and that would be under the purview of the government to regulate.

    Anyways, i'm ranting so i'll shutup now.
    In today's society, nothing occurs in a vacuum.

    You pay more for health insurance today (assuming you're from the U.S.) because an overwhelming number of Americans refuse to exercise and eat processed sugar 22 hours out of every day.  Your damn right I feel strongly they should put down the donut and pick up the dumbbell, because preventative care is vastly cheaper than treating type 2 diabetes.


    Consumer activity influences the market we all participate in.  As many here mention whenever we discuss these kinds of things: if people weren't buying in, companies wouldn't be pursuing these goals.
    You seem to be implying that other people donating to the kickstarter will have a negative impact on you.  What impact exactly are you fearful of?  Specify please.

    And if you arent really sure what that is, then you dont really know if it might not be a positive impact.
    The entire conversation started on the premise that these purchases aren't made in a vacuum.  Folks throwing millions at crowdfunding encourage more crowdfunding attempts by devs.  Those of us who see crowdfunding as a piss poor replacement would obviously be affected by more and more dev studios using it.
    True, on the other hand, people only turned to crowd funding in the first place because AAA studios produced the same shit again and again, then turned to f2p crap which small amounts of people then spend excessive cash on which further encourages more of these shit games.

    You are right that how others spend money has an effect, but you can argue crowd funded games is already a consequence of people encouraging the low quality cash grab f2p games. In fact, based on the mmo space for the last decade I would argue crowdfunding has minimal impact on haters of it because the whole reason people fund is because they are the only devs trying to make something interesting to play - since the mainstream market already gave up on that long ago anyway.
    GdemamisvannMadFrenchie
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    svann said:
    Hrimnir said:
    Kyleran said:
    Hrimnir said:
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    Intentionally being obtuse?
    No.  I just don't understand why people get so worked up over what people do with their own money.

    It takes away people's agency.  You're basically saying (not you specifically) that people are incapable of assessing the risk, determining the value of their purchase, etc and so forth, and that some external entity (usually government) needs to make sure these people aren't "taken advantage" of.

    Now, i'm all for laws about having to be transparent and not literally try to swindle people, but as long as the company isn't hiding something intentionally for that purpose, then its frankly none of anyone's business what two independent parties choose to do with each other.

    Now, this is a different issue with children (which is a separate argument as to what defines a child in the sense of personal agency) and that would be under the purview of the government to regulate.

    Anyways, i'm ranting so i'll shutup now.
    In today's society, nothing occurs in a vacuum.

    You pay more for health insurance today (assuming you're from the U.S.) because an overwhelming number of Americans refuse to exercise and eat processed sugar 22 hours out of every day.  Your damn right I feel strongly they should put down the donut and pick up the dumbbell, because preventative care is vastly cheaper than treating type 2 diabetes.


    Consumer activity influences the market we all participate in.  As many here mention whenever we discuss these kinds of things: if people weren't buying in, companies wouldn't be pursuing these goals.
    You seem to be implying that other people donating to the kickstarter will have a negative impact on you.  What impact exactly are you fearful of?  Specify please.

    And if you arent really sure what that is, then you dont really know if it might not be a positive impact.
    The entire conversation started on the premise that these purchases aren't made in a vacuum.  Folks throwing millions at crowdfunding encourage more crowdfunding attempts by devs.  Those of us who see crowdfunding as a piss poor replacement would obviously be affected by more and more dev studios using it.
    True, on the other hand, people only turned to crowd funding in the first place because AAA studios produced the same shit again and again, then turned to f2p crap which small amounts of people then spend excessive cash on which further encourages more of these shit games.

    You are right that how others spend money has an effect, but you can argue crowd funded games is already a consequence of people encouraging the low quality cash grab f2p games. In fact, based on the mmo space for the last decade I would argue crowdfunding has minimal impact on haters of it because the whole reason people fund is because they are the only devs trying to make something interesting to play - since the mainstream market already gave up on that long ago anyway.
    I don't disagree.  Publisher's were pushing the edge, but crowdfunding (at least in the realm of MMORPGs) has shown itself to be far more misleading to consumers than the traditional publishers were.  At least the publishers never asked the consumers to fund the project in the first place, then failed to hold their studios to a timeline over and over while taking in more cash through microtransactions ideas.

    MMORPGs and crowdfunding aren't a good fit.
    Gdemami

    image
  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 984
    edited May 2019
    I bought into Fortnite for the STW side of the game, and then the BR happened. I bought into Albion early, and played it a little, but didn't really end up liking it. I bought into Shroud of The Avatar early and.....it never turned out how I liked.

    Shit...now I'm going to go eat some cotton candy ice cream. The brand is by Caveat Emptor.

    Gut Out!
    blueturtle13

    What, me worry?

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,030
    edited May 2019
    blamo2000 said:

    Literally the part you quoted has zero to do with life or death situations, which I've not ever talked about. The only person trying to change the discussion is you, via making if about a general quality of life and claiming the internet fixes all consumer woes, when I never discussed such (thus, red herring).  How many EULAs did the average person agree to in the 50s?  How many ToSs?  How many times did they use a software product at all?  Hell, how many would even have the word "algorithm" in their vocabulary?  Checking food for signs of rot requires far less information and knowledge than trying to deduce whether a video games algorithm is attempting to push you to the shop via matchmaking.  And these complex software products permeate every area of our lives, all with their own agreements and terms.

    I've given you examples.  I've articulated it.  You refuse to accept it.


    If you don't wanna believe me, read on: https://necsi.edu/complexity-rising-from-human-beings-to-human-civilization-a-complexity-profile

    They study it at a bird's eye level, with frequent references to things like global supply markets influencing the price of goods.  We become more interconnected and the products and systems we use daily have become much more complex.  Period.

    So, because life has become so easy and filled with frivolous nonsense that people have so much free time they don’t read or seem to care about all the ToS and EUAs they blindly accept to have access to all their free frivolous crap to fill their mostly carefree and easy lives?

    The horror and utter impossible complexity of modern life.  When I first got into my field it required I do a ton of calculus.  There were formulas we all knew by heart.  Now we have complex systems that do most of my job for us, and even our more advanced decision making is more formulaic and system determined than anything.  Complex systems have made my once extremely complex profession pretty fucking easy.

    I 100% agree knowledge has increased and a lot of systems have become more complex, but they have become easier to manage for people logistically.  And life in the first world for most people has become far less complex, requires less knowledge, trying, and effort.  

    And people don’t have relationships with businesses.  They have transactions.  Relationships denotes you have a say in how the transactions occur.  We don’t.  You cannot negotiate the ToS and EULA.  You accept or do not.  For the vast majority of people what is in the ToS or EULA is irrelevant.  Do you want the product or not?  If you do you accept.  If you don’t you never start the transaction to get to the ToS or EULA.  This is far simpler and far less complex than in the past when there were actual relationships between a business and their customers.  Banks have become homogenized mega-institutes thanks to government regulations in the US that forced most small banks to close “to protect consumers.”  When I was younger choosing a bank was a big deal because they offered different things.  CD rates varied widely between banks.  As did customer service, fees, etc.  Now they are just a homogenous, faceless, mega-corp that are all exactly the same.  

    Your super complex world of today is just an empty, soulless shell devoid of actual relationship between consumers and businesses.  

    And the one way games got funded that actually fostered some sort of actual necessary relationship between developer and player you are against?  Go evil mega-corp publishers?  No thank you.

    I'm not taking sides because I only read this side. I have to agree the world is a cold place much unlike it used to be.

    -Prices of items are often equal and kept expensive in stores, almost to the point competitors talk to each other to keep them that way or the manufacture determines when the prices drop.

    -Ever notice no two hardware stores keep the same name brands or the same model number so you cant price compare.

    Home Depot and Lowes are exactly the same, EXACTLY !
    Different name brands, but at the same price.

    Walmart is not your friend.  The only thing cheap are bargain store cheaply made products.  Try buying good quality pot holders?
      


    I'm old, but I have a much older friend that refuses to keep up with the times.

    He still thinks his family bank will do him favorers. He doesn't shop around for loan sales, he doesn't know banks run temporary sales on loans and often gets riped off by putting trust in one bank. 

    He uses ONE car dealership time after time, thinking their his friend, he starts off his conversations with "we buy all our cars here".... He thinks that works !

    He also ask "can you give me a good price".  Like that works without shopping around.


    GOD love him, he's pure Innocent and believes in people. 
    Gdemami
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,855
    Hrimnir said:
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    I do find people get overly judgy when it comes to games and even more so with MMOs. You can get flamed just for saying you like the direction a game is going. Say you support them with cash and you have a target on your back. I'm really glad I could drop a couple of bones on Pantheon and I have not missed the cash I used to do so. I even considering upping my pledge. 
    Catibrie



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