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Bad first impressions

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,863
    Thane said:
    SlyLoK said:
    I've decided to try ESO on a free to play time, they offered like a week for free.
    But after logging in two times i just could not force myself to play. It's somehow just wrong to me.
    I don't even know what. It's not interesting, like EQ or WoW. Just dull. No sense of power, or adventure : )  And this "no UI" thing that OP mentioned also killed it for me. I can't see my skills, have nowhere to put it. Really? a new player, no bar to to put new skills in? Good job.
    There is a skill bar.. you didn't even play the game did you?

    No, there is not. You have to find it in options and bring it up. You can call me lazy, but what do you call the people in charge of new player experience then? :)  Newcomers having to browse in options to find out how to enable skillbar.. so they could be allowed to start casting spells. They don't know if the skillbar even exists at all. Why, what's the reason?  Just make it visible, like all games do.
    i'm just whining. It's an ok game. Skillbar, obviously, isn't some huge problem here. All the small details is.
    if you don't know that the skillbar existed, you should have read those tutorial messages ^^
    you know, they are your friend, no food.

    and ESO explains alot... all day long. unless you actually switch it off. but that only works in the options, and as you already said, you don't like em :)

    PS: you can also enable name plates in the options, and all sorts of other funny stuff. might be worth to check em out some day
    To the extent that the game has a tutorial at all, it's extremely sparse.  It offered me a handful of tutorial-like tooltips in the few hours that I played, and a lot of those tooltips were wrong.  And that was all it had for a formal tutorial that I could find.  The keybinds page that lets you change your controls was more of a tutorial than the game's actual tutorial was, as that at least tells you what all of the options are.

    Earlier in the thread, someone said that the game has a tutorial, but new players aren't started there or directed to go there anymore.  Having a new player tutorial off hidden in some remote area that a new player isn't likely to find before hitting the level cap is basically equivalent to not having a tutorial.
    Gdemami
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,863
    JudgeUK said:
    The issue with the game has been there since launch. They tried and are still persisting in having a single player UI set up in an mmo.
    All this minimalist approach is ok for frantic button mashing on a controller, but don't limit the full functionality of mmo's main playerbase - pc users - because of the lesser functionality of a super mario input device.
    I know there's a raft of addons, the ownership and update of these vary like the UK weather. These should be optional extras to a game, not something that tries to drag up an mmo from the limitations of a hand held device to the full functionality of a keyboard/mouse set up.

    Other mmo's manage this well, FFXIV for example, and it's about time the developers really acknowledged the pc mmo playerbase. 
    No. The UI is set up for a much wider diverse skill system that gives you and combination of armor and weapons. The fact that you are unable to use the UI in a efficient manner is on you not the game. Here is a phrase "stance dancing": something hardcore players would remeber form some of the more engaging pvp games. 
    There is a theory in UI design that you should make the defaults awful so that everyone will have to go find out how to customize it and then get things working exactly how they want.  That way, they'll end up with everything customized exactly how they want, rather than just going with defaults that are decent enough and not learning how to customize the UI.

    It's not a very popular theory.  Bethesda seems to subscribe to it, though.

    The problem is that long-time fans of the game don't remember what the defaults were, but are looking at the UI as they've customized it to be exactly what they want and thinking everything is good.  People who are new to the game are looking at the defaults and concluding that the game must be a horribly broken mess.
    RidelynnGdemami
  • Prime_DirectivePrime_Directive Member RarePosts: 1,126
    Quizzical said:
    JudgeUK said:
    The issue with the game has been there since launch. They tried and are still persisting in having a single player UI set up in an mmo.
    All this minimalist approach is ok for frantic button mashing on a controller, but don't limit the full functionality of mmo's main playerbase - pc users - because of the lesser functionality of a super mario input device.
    I know there's a raft of addons, the ownership and update of these vary like the UK weather. These should be optional extras to a game, not something that tries to drag up an mmo from the limitations of a hand held device to the full functionality of a keyboard/mouse set up.

    Other mmo's manage this well, FFXIV for example, and it's about time the developers really acknowledged the pc mmo playerbase. 
    No. The UI is set up for a much wider diverse skill system that gives you and combination of armor and weapons. The fact that you are unable to use the UI in a efficient manner is on you not the game. Here is a phrase "stance dancing": something hardcore players would remeber form some of the more engaging pvp games. 
    There is a theory in UI design that you should make the defaults awful so that everyone will have to go find out how to customize it and then get things working exactly how they want.  That way, they'll end up with everything customized exactly how they want, rather than just going with defaults that are decent enough and not learning how to customize the UI.

    It's not a very popular theory.  Bethesda seems to subscribe to it, though.

    The problem is that long-time fans of the game don't remember what the defaults were, but are looking at the UI as they've customized it to be exactly what they want and thinking everything is good.  People who are new to the game are looking at the defaults and concluding that the game must be a horribly broken mess.
    I never faced a ui I can't play. What will happen when people try Spellborn ?? 
    There is a multiverse inside our minds which millions live.
  • mmoloummolou Member UncommonPosts: 198
    Quizzical said:
    JudgeUK said:
    The issue with the game has been there since launch. They tried and are still persisting in having a single player UI set up in an mmo.
    All this minimalist approach is ok for frantic button mashing on a controller, but don't limit the full functionality of mmo's main playerbase - pc users - because of the lesser functionality of a super mario input device.
    I know there's a raft of addons, the ownership and update of these vary like the UK weather. These should be optional extras to a game, not something that tries to drag up an mmo from the limitations of a hand held device to the full functionality of a keyboard/mouse set up.

    Other mmo's manage this well, FFXIV for example, and it's about time the developers really acknowledged the pc mmo playerbase. 
    No. The UI is set up for a much wider diverse skill system that gives you and combination of armor and weapons. The fact that you are unable to use the UI in a efficient manner is on you not the game. Here is a phrase "stance dancing": something hardcore players would remeber form some of the more engaging pvp games. 
    There is a theory in UI design that you should make the defaults awful so that everyone will have to go find out how to customize it and then get things working exactly how they want.  That way, they'll end up with everything customized exactly how they want, rather than just going with defaults that are decent enough and not learning how to customize the UI.

    It's not a very popular theory.  Bethesda seems to subscribe to it, though.

    The problem is that long-time fans of the game don't remember what the defaults were, but are looking at the UI as they've customized it to be exactly what they want and thinking everything is good.  People who are new to the game are looking at the defaults and concluding that the game must be a horribly broken mess.
    I never faced a ui I can't play. What will happen when people try Spellborn ?? 
    The rolling deck Spellborn had was awesome, placing skills so you had what you needed when you needed it was what separated the wheat from the chaff.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,863
    Quizzical said:
    JudgeUK said:
    The issue with the game has been there since launch. They tried and are still persisting in having a single player UI set up in an mmo.
    All this minimalist approach is ok for frantic button mashing on a controller, but don't limit the full functionality of mmo's main playerbase - pc users - because of the lesser functionality of a super mario input device.
    I know there's a raft of addons, the ownership and update of these vary like the UK weather. These should be optional extras to a game, not something that tries to drag up an mmo from the limitations of a hand held device to the full functionality of a keyboard/mouse set up.

    Other mmo's manage this well, FFXIV for example, and it's about time the developers really acknowledged the pc mmo playerbase. 
    No. The UI is set up for a much wider diverse skill system that gives you and combination of armor and weapons. The fact that you are unable to use the UI in a efficient manner is on you not the game. Here is a phrase "stance dancing": something hardcore players would remeber form some of the more engaging pvp games. 
    There is a theory in UI design that you should make the defaults awful so that everyone will have to go find out how to customize it and then get things working exactly how they want.  That way, they'll end up with everything customized exactly how they want, rather than just going with defaults that are decent enough and not learning how to customize the UI.

    It's not a very popular theory.  Bethesda seems to subscribe to it, though.

    The problem is that long-time fans of the game don't remember what the defaults were, but are looking at the UI as they've customized it to be exactly what they want and thinking everything is good.  People who are new to the game are looking at the defaults and concluding that the game must be a horribly broken mess.
    I never faced a ui I can't play. What will happen when people try Spellborn ?? 
    Elder Scrolls Online does a much worse job of introducing new players to how to play the game than any other MMO that I've ever played.  I thought that was remarkable, and so I remarked on it.  The Chronicles of Spellborn was unorthodox, but it didn't just drop players into the world with no explanation and most of what they need hidden by default and see if they can figure it out, the way that ESO does.

    Stupid default UI settings isn't the reason I quit.  Because I use a controller, I'm used to having to spend quite a bit of time right at the start tinkering with settings to get everything how I want.  I'm not one to download every new game that comes along and find some stupid reason to quit five minutes later.

    Rather, the reason I quit was the false advertising.  I don't care to give money to thieves.  If they'll try to scam me right up front, they'll probably try to scam me plenty more times once I get further into a game.  I don't want to fuss with that, and the way to avoid it is to avoid the game (and more generally, Zenimax) entirely.

    ESO is the only game that I've ever demanded a refund for.  Normally if I buy a game and it does what the developers promised, but I just don't like the game, I won't request a refund over that.  I'll quit the game because I don't like it, but they can keep whatever I paid for it.  Even if I could get a refund, it's not worth the hassle, as time is the scarce resource in life, not money.  But when a company is trying to defraud its customers, I want them not to keep my money on general principle.
    Gdemami
  • Prime_DirectivePrime_Directive Member RarePosts: 1,126
    edited May 11
    Quizzical said:
    Quizzical said:
    JudgeUK said:
    The issue with the game has been there since launch. They tried and are still persisting in having a single player UI set up in an mmo.
    All this minimalist approach is ok for frantic button mashing on a controller, but don't limit the full functionality of mmo's main playerbase - pc users - because of the lesser functionality of a super mario input device.
    I know there's a raft of addons, the ownership and update of these vary like the UK weather. These should be optional extras to a game, not something that tries to drag up an mmo from the limitations of a hand held device to the full functionality of a keyboard/mouse set up.

    Other mmo's manage this well, FFXIV for example, and it's about time the developers really acknowledged the pc mmo playerbase. 
    No. The UI is set up for a much wider diverse skill system that gives you and combination of armor and weapons. The fact that you are unable to use the UI in a efficient manner is on you not the game. Here is a phrase "stance dancing": something hardcore players would remeber form some of the more engaging pvp games. 
    There is a theory in UI design that you should make the defaults awful so that everyone will have to go find out how to customize it and then get things working exactly how they want.  That way, they'll end up with everything customized exactly how they want, rather than just going with defaults that are decent enough and not learning how to customize the UI.

    It's not a very popular theory.  Bethesda seems to subscribe to it, though.

    The problem is that long-time fans of the game don't remember what the defaults were, but are looking at the UI as they've customized it to be exactly what they want and thinking everything is good.  People who are new to the game are looking at the defaults and concluding that the game must be a horribly broken mess.
    I never faced a ui I can't play. What will happen when people try Spellborn ?? 
    Elder Scrolls Online does a much worse job of introducing new players to how to play the game than any other MMO that I've ever played.  
    Apparently you haven't logged in , in a while. so instead of using your experience from 4 years ago, play the game now with a new character. My head is getting back to  being very angry so I am trying my best to not get raging. Reading such idiotuic bullshit gives me a headache.

    If antagonizing me is what your pleasure is, then you can go on the fucking block list.
    There is a multiverse inside our minds which millions live.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,863
    Quizzical said:
    Quizzical said:
    JudgeUK said:
    The issue with the game has been there since launch. They tried and are still persisting in having a single player UI set up in an mmo.
    All this minimalist approach is ok for frantic button mashing on a controller, but don't limit the full functionality of mmo's main playerbase - pc users - because of the lesser functionality of a super mario input device.
    I know there's a raft of addons, the ownership and update of these vary like the UK weather. These should be optional extras to a game, not something that tries to drag up an mmo from the limitations of a hand held device to the full functionality of a keyboard/mouse set up.

    Other mmo's manage this well, FFXIV for example, and it's about time the developers really acknowledged the pc mmo playerbase. 
    No. The UI is set up for a much wider diverse skill system that gives you and combination of armor and weapons. The fact that you are unable to use the UI in a efficient manner is on you not the game. Here is a phrase "stance dancing": something hardcore players would remeber form some of the more engaging pvp games. 
    There is a theory in UI design that you should make the defaults awful so that everyone will have to go find out how to customize it and then get things working exactly how they want.  That way, they'll end up with everything customized exactly how they want, rather than just going with defaults that are decent enough and not learning how to customize the UI.

    It's not a very popular theory.  Bethesda seems to subscribe to it, though.

    The problem is that long-time fans of the game don't remember what the defaults were, but are looking at the UI as they've customized it to be exactly what they want and thinking everything is good.  People who are new to the game are looking at the defaults and concluding that the game must be a horribly broken mess.
    I never faced a ui I can't play. What will happen when people try Spellborn ?? 
    Elder Scrolls Online does a much worse job of introducing new players to how to play the game than any other MMO that I've ever played.  
    Apparently you haven't logged in , in a while. so instead of using your experience from 4 years ago, play the game now with a new character. My head is getting back to  being very angry so I am trying my best to not get raging. Reading such idiotuic bullshit gives me a headache.

    If antagonizing me is what your pleasure it, then you can go on the fucking black list.
    Look at the timestamp on creating the thread.  This is as of last August, not four years ago.  That's more than four years after the game launched.  It's conceivable that what I ran into was a temporary bug where the game was just in a non-functional state when I tried it, but more than 200 replies into this thread, no one has claimed that.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,168
    Quizzical said:
    Quizzical said:
    JudgeUK said:
    The issue with the game has been there since launch. They tried and are still persisting in having a single player UI set up in an mmo.
    All this minimalist approach is ok for frantic button mashing on a controller, but don't limit the full functionality of mmo's main playerbase - pc users - because of the lesser functionality of a super mario input device.
    I know there's a raft of addons, the ownership and update of these vary like the UK weather. These should be optional extras to a game, not something that tries to drag up an mmo from the limitations of a hand held device to the full functionality of a keyboard/mouse set up.

    Other mmo's manage this well, FFXIV for example, and it's about time the developers really acknowledged the pc mmo playerbase. 
    No. The UI is set up for a much wider diverse skill system that gives you and combination of armor and weapons. The fact that you are unable to use the UI in a efficient manner is on you not the game. Here is a phrase "stance dancing": something hardcore players would remeber form some of the more engaging pvp games. 
    There is a theory in UI design that you should make the defaults awful so that everyone will have to go find out how to customize it and then get things working exactly how they want.  That way, they'll end up with everything customized exactly how they want, rather than just going with defaults that are decent enough and not learning how to customize the UI.

    It's not a very popular theory.  Bethesda seems to subscribe to it, though.

    The problem is that long-time fans of the game don't remember what the defaults were, but are looking at the UI as they've customized it to be exactly what they want and thinking everything is good.  People who are new to the game are looking at the defaults and concluding that the game must be a horribly broken mess.
    I never faced a ui I can't play. What will happen when people try Spellborn ?? 
    Elder Scrolls Online does a much worse job of introducing new players to how to play the game than any other MMO that I've ever played.  
    Apparently you haven't logged in , in a while. so instead of using your experience from 4 years ago, play the game now with a new character. My head is getting back to  being very angry so I am trying my best to not get raging. Reading such idiotuic bullshit gives me a headache.
    @Quizzical 's post is from August 2018 not 4 years ago. There have - however - been some changes as far as QoL etc. goes so your point is semi-valid. (He can't create a new character though since he got a refund.)
    Quizzical
  • Prime_DirectivePrime_Directive Member RarePosts: 1,126
    gervaise1 said:
    Quizzical said:
    Quizzical said:
    JudgeUK said:
    The issue with the game has been there since launch. They tried and are still persisting in having a single player UI set up in an mmo.
    All this minimalist approach is ok for frantic button mashing on a controller, but don't limit the full functionality of mmo's main playerbase - pc users - because of the lesser functionality of a super mario input device.
    I know there's a raft of addons, the ownership and update of these vary like the UK weather. These should be optional extras to a game, not something that tries to drag up an mmo from the limitations of a hand held device to the full functionality of a keyboard/mouse set up.

    Other mmo's manage this well, FFXIV for example, and it's about time the developers really acknowledged the pc mmo playerbase. 
    No. The UI is set up for a much wider diverse skill system that gives you and combination of armor and weapons. The fact that you are unable to use the UI in a efficient manner is on you not the game. Here is a phrase "stance dancing": something hardcore players would remeber form some of the more engaging pvp games. 
    There is a theory in UI design that you should make the defaults awful so that everyone will have to go find out how to customize it and then get things working exactly how they want.  That way, they'll end up with everything customized exactly how they want, rather than just going with defaults that are decent enough and not learning how to customize the UI.

    It's not a very popular theory.  Bethesda seems to subscribe to it, though.

    The problem is that long-time fans of the game don't remember what the defaults were, but are looking at the UI as they've customized it to be exactly what they want and thinking everything is good.  People who are new to the game are looking at the defaults and concluding that the game must be a horribly broken mess.
    I never faced a ui I can't play. What will happen when people try Spellborn ?? 
    Elder Scrolls Online does a much worse job of introducing new players to how to play the game than any other MMO that I've ever played.  
    Apparently you haven't logged in , in a while. so instead of using your experience from 4 years ago, play the game now with a new character. My head is getting back to  being very angry so I am trying my best to not get raging. Reading such idiotuic bullshit gives me a headache.
    @Quizzical 's post is from August 2018 not 4 years ago. There have - however - been some changes as far as QoL etc. goes so your point is semi-valid. (He can't create a new character though since he got a refund.)
    not my problem, if he isn't even logged in playing he should maybe step back and shhhhhh.
    There is a multiverse inside our minds which millions live.
  • Prime_DirectivePrime_Directive Member RarePosts: 1,126
    edited May 11
    So far on my new character. Free Bear mount , Free costumes , free non combat pet, log in rewards, free potions , 3 free character renames and 3 free racial changes. So sick of reading garbage from people arent even fucking playing. Every game I comment on, I play.
    Arterius
    There is a multiverse inside our minds which millions live.
  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 1,615
    So far on my new character. Free Bear mount , Free costumes , free non combat pet, log in rewards, free potions , 3 free character renames and 3 free racial changes. So sick of reading garbage from people arent even fucking playing. Every game I comment on, I play.
    Semi new player here and I also got some pretty good freebies for buying in. I didn't feel confused by anything. I have been playing on PS4 and only have up to the Morrowwind expansion and I was never confused on how to play the game. The tutorial was pretty seamless for me. I am only lvl 10 so that may change when I get to the end game
    Prime_Directive
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,863
    So far on my new character. Free Bear mount , Free costumes , free non combat pet, log in rewards, free potions , 3 free character renames and 3 free racial changes. So sick of reading garbage from people arent even fucking playing. Every game I comment on, I play.
    I was playing the game when I created the thread.  I'm not the one who bumped a dead thread today.

    It's possible that they've fixed the tutorial problem.  But even if they have, it's still remarkable that a big budget and apparently popular game would be in such a bad state more than four years after launch.

    It would hardly be the only time that a launched game did something that broke it.  The most spectacular example if that that I've seen is that there was a period of about three weeks in which if you tried to launch Elsword on a computer running a fully patched Windows 10, it would blue screen.

    The reason why I actually quit sure doesn't look fixed, though.  Here's the offending page:

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/esoplus

    And the offending quote:

    "Full access to all DLC game packs"

    Have they now decided that that includes all of the game's content?  Or are they still using the hair-splitting excuse that some of the game's DLC is officially a DLC game pack and others is officially something else and so must be purchased separately?  Oh, and a new player probably won't find that out until after he pays for it and doesn't get what he was promised, which was the whole point of wording it that way all along.  That is the fraudulent behavior that led me to quit and demand a refund.
    Gdemami
  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 1,615
    Quizzical said:
    So far on my new character. Free Bear mount , Free costumes , free non combat pet, log in rewards, free potions , 3 free character renames and 3 free racial changes. So sick of reading garbage from people arent even fucking playing. Every game I comment on, I play.
    I was playing the game when I created the thread.  I'm not the one who bumped a dead thread today.

    It's possible that they've fixed the tutorial problem.  But even if they have, it's still remarkable that a big budget and apparently popular game would be in such a bad state more than four years after launch.

    It would hardly be the only time that a launched game did something that broke it.  The most spectacular example if that that I've seen is that there was a period of about three weeks in which if you tried to launch Elsword on a computer running a fully patched Windows 10, it would blue screen.

    The reason why I actually quit sure doesn't look fixed, though.  Here's the offending page:

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/esoplus

    And the offending quote:

    "Full access to all DLC game packs"

    Have they now decided that that includes all of the game's content?  Or are they still using the hair-splitting excuse that some of the game's DLC is officially a DLC game pack and others is officially something else and so must be purchased separately?  Oh, and a new player probably won't find that out until after he pays for it and doesn't get what he was promised, which was the whole point of wording it that way all along.  That is the fraudulent behavior that led me to quit and demand a refund.
    I think from the beginning they said that Morrowind and Summerset where chapters. However, they changed that to when a new chapter releases they will give the old free to ESO plus members. I could be wrong and I am not going to go that far back to look. I do follow a lot of youtubers who mostly cover MMOs and I was never in the dark about what came with the game and what doesn't. I am guessing from the player base most don't mind or are not as confused about it. I mean people voiced there pleasure at Anthem for how they carried out there launch. Can't imagine they wouldn't do the same for ESO
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,863
    Arterius said:
    Quizzical said:
    So far on my new character. Free Bear mount , Free costumes , free non combat pet, log in rewards, free potions , 3 free character renames and 3 free racial changes. So sick of reading garbage from people arent even fucking playing. Every game I comment on, I play.
    I was playing the game when I created the thread.  I'm not the one who bumped a dead thread today.

    It's possible that they've fixed the tutorial problem.  But even if they have, it's still remarkable that a big budget and apparently popular game would be in such a bad state more than four years after launch.

    It would hardly be the only time that a launched game did something that broke it.  The most spectacular example if that that I've seen is that there was a period of about three weeks in which if you tried to launch Elsword on a computer running a fully patched Windows 10, it would blue screen.

    The reason why I actually quit sure doesn't look fixed, though.  Here's the offending page:

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/esoplus

    And the offending quote:

    "Full access to all DLC game packs"

    Have they now decided that that includes all of the game's content?  Or are they still using the hair-splitting excuse that some of the game's DLC is officially a DLC game pack and others is officially something else and so must be purchased separately?  Oh, and a new player probably won't find that out until after he pays for it and doesn't get what he was promised, which was the whole point of wording it that way all along.  That is the fraudulent behavior that led me to quit and demand a refund.
    I think from the beginning they said that Morrowind and Summerset where chapters. However, they changed that to when a new chapter releases they will give the old free to ESO plus members. I could be wrong and I am not going to go that far back to look. I do follow a lot of youtubers who mostly cover MMOs and I was never in the dark about what came with the game and what doesn't. I am guessing from the player base most don't mind or are not as confused about it. I mean people voiced there pleasure at Anthem for how they carried out there launch. Can't imagine they wouldn't do the same for ESO
    When I started, Morrowind was included with ESO Plus and Summerset wasn't, even though both were listed as chapters.  The simplest explanation of this that you could find on their site required cross-referencing three different pages and carefully parsing the fine print in somewhat dubious ways.

    My problem isn't with their business model.  If they said includes all content except for the most recent chapter, I wouldn't have a problem with it.  The problem is that what they give you doesn't match what they're trying very hard to strongly imply that you'll get for your money.  That's fraud, and that's why I don't care to give money to thieves.
  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 1,615
    Quizzical said:
    Arterius said:
    Quizzical said:
    So far on my new character. Free Bear mount , Free costumes , free non combat pet, log in rewards, free potions , 3 free character renames and 3 free racial changes. So sick of reading garbage from people arent even fucking playing. Every game I comment on, I play.
    I was playing the game when I created the thread.  I'm not the one who bumped a dead thread today.

    It's possible that they've fixed the tutorial problem.  But even if they have, it's still remarkable that a big budget and apparently popular game would be in such a bad state more than four years after launch.

    It would hardly be the only time that a launched game did something that broke it.  The most spectacular example if that that I've seen is that there was a period of about three weeks in which if you tried to launch Elsword on a computer running a fully patched Windows 10, it would blue screen.

    The reason why I actually quit sure doesn't look fixed, though.  Here's the offending page:

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/esoplus

    And the offending quote:

    "Full access to all DLC game packs"

    Have they now decided that that includes all of the game's content?  Or are they still using the hair-splitting excuse that some of the game's DLC is officially a DLC game pack and others is officially something else and so must be purchased separately?  Oh, and a new player probably won't find that out until after he pays for it and doesn't get what he was promised, which was the whole point of wording it that way all along.  That is the fraudulent behavior that led me to quit and demand a refund.
    I think from the beginning they said that Morrowind and Summerset where chapters. However, they changed that to when a new chapter releases they will give the old free to ESO plus members. I could be wrong and I am not going to go that far back to look. I do follow a lot of youtubers who mostly cover MMOs and I was never in the dark about what came with the game and what doesn't. I am guessing from the player base most don't mind or are not as confused about it. I mean people voiced there pleasure at Anthem for how they carried out there launch. Can't imagine they wouldn't do the same for ESO
    When I started, Morrowind was included with ESO Plus and Summerset wasn't, even though both were listed as chapters.  The simplest explanation of this that you could find on their site required cross-referencing three different pages and carefully parsing the fine print in somewhat dubious ways.

    My problem isn't with their business model.  If they said includes all content except for the most recent chapter, I wouldn't have a problem with it.  The problem is that what they give you doesn't match what they're trying very hard to strongly imply that you'll get for your money.  That's fraud, and that's why I don't care to give money to thieves.
    I mean they clearly label DLC as one thing though and chapters as another. That to me isn't fraud. If I was a customer buying into ESO with no knowledge I would be happy to get Morrowwind for free since its technically a chapter and not DLC. They have been very clear and vocal on what is DLC and what is a chapter since they announced Morrowwind
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,863
    Arterius said:
    Quizzical said:
    Arterius said:
    Quizzical said:
    So far on my new character. Free Bear mount , Free costumes , free non combat pet, log in rewards, free potions , 3 free character renames and 3 free racial changes. So sick of reading garbage from people arent even fucking playing. Every game I comment on, I play.
    I was playing the game when I created the thread.  I'm not the one who bumped a dead thread today.

    It's possible that they've fixed the tutorial problem.  But even if they have, it's still remarkable that a big budget and apparently popular game would be in such a bad state more than four years after launch.

    It would hardly be the only time that a launched game did something that broke it.  The most spectacular example if that that I've seen is that there was a period of about three weeks in which if you tried to launch Elsword on a computer running a fully patched Windows 10, it would blue screen.

    The reason why I actually quit sure doesn't look fixed, though.  Here's the offending page:

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/esoplus

    And the offending quote:

    "Full access to all DLC game packs"

    Have they now decided that that includes all of the game's content?  Or are they still using the hair-splitting excuse that some of the game's DLC is officially a DLC game pack and others is officially something else and so must be purchased separately?  Oh, and a new player probably won't find that out until after he pays for it and doesn't get what he was promised, which was the whole point of wording it that way all along.  That is the fraudulent behavior that led me to quit and demand a refund.
    I think from the beginning they said that Morrowind and Summerset where chapters. However, they changed that to when a new chapter releases they will give the old free to ESO plus members. I could be wrong and I am not going to go that far back to look. I do follow a lot of youtubers who mostly cover MMOs and I was never in the dark about what came with the game and what doesn't. I am guessing from the player base most don't mind or are not as confused about it. I mean people voiced there pleasure at Anthem for how they carried out there launch. Can't imagine they wouldn't do the same for ESO
    When I started, Morrowind was included with ESO Plus and Summerset wasn't, even though both were listed as chapters.  The simplest explanation of this that you could find on their site required cross-referencing three different pages and carefully parsing the fine print in somewhat dubious ways.

    My problem isn't with their business model.  If they said includes all content except for the most recent chapter, I wouldn't have a problem with it.  The problem is that what they give you doesn't match what they're trying very hard to strongly imply that you'll get for your money.  That's fraud, and that's why I don't care to give money to thieves.
    I mean they clearly label DLC as one thing though and chapters as another. That to me isn't fraud. If I was a customer buying into ESO with no knowledge I would be happy to get Morrowwind for free since its technically a chapter and not DLC. They have been very clear and vocal on what is DLC and what is a chapter since they announced Morrowwind
    By the normal English meaning of the words, a "chapter" is a game pack of downloadable content.  If they want to be so clear and vocal that chapters are sometimes included with ESO Plus and sometimes not, then why can't they put it on their web site?  Indeed, the site is worded the way that it is for the express purpose of trying to convince prospective customers that it includes something that it doesn't.
  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,044
    This still goin? Sure, ES:O IS an acquired taste, but not even I can stretch it like that! 200+ posts!
  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 1,615
    Quizzical said:
    Arterius said:
    Quizzical said:
    Arterius said:
    Quizzical said:
    So far on my new character. Free Bear mount , Free costumes , free non combat pet, log in rewards, free potions , 3 free character renames and 3 free racial changes. So sick of reading garbage from people arent even fucking playing. Every game I comment on, I play.
    I was playing the game when I created the thread.  I'm not the one who bumped a dead thread today.

    It's possible that they've fixed the tutorial problem.  But even if they have, it's still remarkable that a big budget and apparently popular game would be in such a bad state more than four years after launch.

    It would hardly be the only time that a launched game did something that broke it.  The most spectacular example if that that I've seen is that there was a period of about three weeks in which if you tried to launch Elsword on a computer running a fully patched Windows 10, it would blue screen.

    The reason why I actually quit sure doesn't look fixed, though.  Here's the offending page:

    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/esoplus

    And the offending quote:

    "Full access to all DLC game packs"

    Have they now decided that that includes all of the game's content?  Or are they still using the hair-splitting excuse that some of the game's DLC is officially a DLC game pack and others is officially something else and so must be purchased separately?  Oh, and a new player probably won't find that out until after he pays for it and doesn't get what he was promised, which was the whole point of wording it that way all along.  That is the fraudulent behavior that led me to quit and demand a refund.
    I think from the beginning they said that Morrowind and Summerset where chapters. However, they changed that to when a new chapter releases they will give the old free to ESO plus members. I could be wrong and I am not going to go that far back to look. I do follow a lot of youtubers who mostly cover MMOs and I was never in the dark about what came with the game and what doesn't. I am guessing from the player base most don't mind or are not as confused about it. I mean people voiced there pleasure at Anthem for how they carried out there launch. Can't imagine they wouldn't do the same for ESO
    When I started, Morrowind was included with ESO Plus and Summerset wasn't, even though both were listed as chapters.  The simplest explanation of this that you could find on their site required cross-referencing three different pages and carefully parsing the fine print in somewhat dubious ways.

    My problem isn't with their business model.  If they said includes all content except for the most recent chapter, I wouldn't have a problem with it.  The problem is that what they give you doesn't match what they're trying very hard to strongly imply that you'll get for your money.  That's fraud, and that's why I don't care to give money to thieves.
    I mean they clearly label DLC as one thing though and chapters as another. That to me isn't fraud. If I was a customer buying into ESO with no knowledge I would be happy to get Morrowwind for free since its technically a chapter and not DLC. They have been very clear and vocal on what is DLC and what is a chapter since they announced Morrowwind
    By the normal English meaning of the words, a "chapter" is a game pack of downloadable content.  If they want to be so clear and vocal that chapters are sometimes included with ESO Plus and sometimes not, then why can't they put it on their web site?  Indeed, the site is worded the way that it is for the express purpose of trying to convince prospective customers that it includes something that it doesn't.
    I don't think so but I could be wrong. I think it more as a helpful surprise. You buy the main game, enjoy ESO, subscribe, and bang Morrowwind included. That sounds like a bonus.

    FYI I do feel sorry that you feel that they bamboozled you. No one should feel that way. I also understand why you feel the way you do. Just trying to come at this from someone who started around the same time you did on PC and than quit for other reasons.
  • Prime_DirectivePrime_Directive Member RarePosts: 1,126
    edited May 12
    also got free storage container for my little apparent that holds 30 items
    There is a multiverse inside our minds which millions live.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,863
    Gorwe said:
    This still goin? Sure, ES:O IS an acquired taste, but not even I can stretch it like that! 200+ posts!
    This thread has died and been revived several times now.  Game-specific forums don't move very fast, so a thread that has been dead for two months is still reasonably high on the first page.  That makes people think it's reasonable to reply, so they do.
    Gorwe
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,944
    Quizzical said:
    Quizzical said:
    JudgeUK said:
    The issue with the game has been there since launch. They tried and are still persisting in having a single player UI set up in an mmo.
    All this minimalist approach is ok for frantic button mashing on a controller, but don't limit the full functionality of mmo's main playerbase - pc users - because of the lesser functionality of a super mario input device.
    I know there's a raft of addons, the ownership and update of these vary like the UK weather. These should be optional extras to a game, not something that tries to drag up an mmo from the limitations of a hand held device to the full functionality of a keyboard/mouse set up.

    Other mmo's manage this well, FFXIV for example, and it's about time the developers really acknowledged the pc mmo playerbase. 
    No. The UI is set up for a much wider diverse skill system that gives you and combination of armor and weapons. The fact that you are unable to use the UI in a efficient manner is on you not the game. Here is a phrase "stance dancing": something hardcore players would remeber form some of the more engaging pvp games. 
    There is a theory in UI design that you should make the defaults awful so that everyone will have to go find out how to customize it and then get things working exactly how they want.  That way, they'll end up with everything customized exactly how they want, rather than just going with defaults that are decent enough and not learning how to customize the UI.

    It's not a very popular theory.  Bethesda seems to subscribe to it, though.

    The problem is that long-time fans of the game don't remember what the defaults were, but are looking at the UI as they've customized it to be exactly what they want and thinking everything is good.  People who are new to the game are looking at the defaults and concluding that the game must be a horribly broken mess.
    I never faced a ui I can't play. What will happen when people try Spellborn ?? 
    Elder Scrolls Online does a much worse job of introducing new players to how to play the game than any other MMO that I've ever played.  I thought that was remarkable, and so I remarked on it.  The Chronicles of Spellborn was unorthodox, but it didn't just drop players into the world with no explanation and most of what they need hidden by default and see if they can figure it out, the way that ESO does.


    Every character I have ever made in ESO has had the ability to run through the Tutorial area (Cold Harbor).  I just went back like a week ago and made a new character and once again was given the option of starting there or skipping the tutorial area...

    I agree with some of the other stuff you posted about what is included with the sub and not but so far it hasn't been a big bother as I pretty much skip the store.
     
    Octagon7711

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 1,615
    Quizzical said:
    Quizzical said:
    JudgeUK said:
    The issue with the game has been there since launch. They tried and are still persisting in having a single player UI set up in an mmo.
    All this minimalist approach is ok for frantic button mashing on a controller, but don't limit the full functionality of mmo's main playerbase - pc users - because of the lesser functionality of a super mario input device.
    I know there's a raft of addons, the ownership and update of these vary like the UK weather. These should be optional extras to a game, not something that tries to drag up an mmo from the limitations of a hand held device to the full functionality of a keyboard/mouse set up.

    Other mmo's manage this well, FFXIV for example, and it's about time the developers really acknowledged the pc mmo playerbase. 
    No. The UI is set up for a much wider diverse skill system that gives you and combination of armor and weapons. The fact that you are unable to use the UI in a efficient manner is on you not the game. Here is a phrase "stance dancing": something hardcore players would remeber form some of the more engaging pvp games. 
    There is a theory in UI design that you should make the defaults awful so that everyone will have to go find out how to customize it and then get things working exactly how they want.  That way, they'll end up with everything customized exactly how they want, rather than just going with defaults that are decent enough and not learning how to customize the UI.

    It's not a very popular theory.  Bethesda seems to subscribe to it, though.

    The problem is that long-time fans of the game don't remember what the defaults were, but are looking at the UI as they've customized it to be exactly what they want and thinking everything is good.  People who are new to the game are looking at the defaults and concluding that the game must be a horribly broken mess.
    I never faced a ui I can't play. What will happen when people try Spellborn ?? 
    Elder Scrolls Online does a much worse job of introducing new players to how to play the game than any other MMO that I've ever played.  I thought that was remarkable, and so I remarked on it.  The Chronicles of Spellborn was unorthodox, but it didn't just drop players into the world with no explanation and most of what they need hidden by default and see if they can figure it out, the way that ESO does.


    Every character I have ever made in ESO has had the ability to run through the Tutorial area (Cold Harbor).  I just went back like a week ago and made a new character and once again was given the option of starting there or skipping the tutorial area...

    I agree with some of the other stuff you posted about what is included with the sub and not but so far it hasn't been a big bother as I pretty much skip the store.
     
    It's only like that if you have the base game. If you have a chapter, lets say Morrowwind, you start as someone recently captured by slavers. If you want to play the main game you have to head to the main city of whatever faction you belong to. It is a chore but not something a quick google fix can solve.

    Though I do agree there should be some kind of pop up that asks if you want to be directed to the main quest.
  • Moxom914Moxom914 Member UncommonPosts: 699
    play it on PS4. great experience. 
    i may be wrong, but if you sub to WoW, you dont get all the xpacs with it. you still have to pay to continue. i dont play ESO anymore, but its still the best out there.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,863
    Moxom914 said:
    play it on PS4. great experience. 
    i may be wrong, but if you sub to WoW, you dont get all the xpacs with it. you still have to pay to continue. i dont play ESO anymore, but its still the best out there.
    As of last year, the main difference in the business model between ESO and WoW is that in WoW, a subscription alone lets you play all but the latest expansion.  In ESO, you have to buy a box up front, in addition to a subscription that lets you play all but the latest expansion.

    But ESO's business model isn't my main complaint.  Blizzard makes it abundantly clear on their web site that with a subscription alone, you have a level cap of 110.  You have to separately buy Battle for Azeroth to get access to it, along with the increased cap of 120.

    If the ESO Plus page were changed so that instead of saying that ESO Plus gives you "full access to all DLC game packs", it said "full access to all content except for the most recent chapter", I'd be satisfied.  Or even if the main text were the same, but the footnote said, "Does not include access to Summerset" (or whatever the latest chapter is; it was Summerset when I played).  The problem is that it doesn't.  The page is intentionally worded to try to lead you to believe that it gives you something that it doesn't.
    Robsolf
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Guess I never really conflated the chapters and the dlc as being the same thing, because when they introduced them they related the chapters as expansions where the dlc was  smaller in scope. 
    Arterius
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