You actually lose a lot more than just the time sinks implemented differently in the two cases. Take for example two successful eastern mmorpgs, BDO and FFXIV. One requires you to spend a subscription to play. The other requires you to pay to:
Have a functional UI,
Get play utility like collecting loot
Inventory spaces
A way to not look like a hobo
Pay your way to end game upgrades
Repay everything for each alt you make all over again
and more (a bit in a hurry but I'm sure you can write more differences)
A subscription is always the bargain deal. F2P cash shop is all about milking as much as possible before you lose interest and move to the next F2P cash shop.
Paying not to look like a hobo in BDO, it is like a shaming initiation by Pearl Abyss to force you to buy an outfit. It just goes to prove they will always think of new ideas to get you to part with cash. And on my other theme here of 'its not just whales that pay' you can see how some of the elements above are 'encouraging' all players to pay.
Playing POE currently and it definitely dresses the player in rags, if not downright silly looking gear like my current helm which looks like I'm wearing an oversized thimble or bell. (Stats are awesome though)
I joked with my friend when we first started his character appeared to be wearing a big white diaper, fortunately at least that's gone now.
Hey, I know they need to make money, but these cosmetics are expensive, can easily cost $20 to $40 to outfit one's avatar with just one outfit, and some bundles range up to near $500.
They even lock the gear to the character and sell a stone or something to remove it, hopefully to be applied to another avatar I think.
People call POE one of the better cash shop models, but I disagree. While I am easily able to ignore the cosmetics, being a classic horder I almost immediately felt the need to buy $20 bucks of storage space, and only a month or so in find myself contemplating further purchases. (If they offered backpack space expansion it would be an immediate buy)
Its actually fairly insidious as there appears to be no way to earn or trade for these items in game, you have to buy them in the cash shop or go without.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You actually lose a lot more than just the time sinks implemented differently in the two cases. Take for example two successful eastern mmorpgs, BDO and FFXIV. One requires you to spend a subscription to play. The other requires you to pay to:
Have a functional UI,
Get play utility like collecting loot
Inventory spaces
A way to not look like a hobo
Pay your way to end game upgrades
Repay everything for each alt you make all over again
and more (a bit in a hurry but I'm sure you can write more differences)
A subscription is always the bargain deal. F2P cash shop is all about milking as much as possible before you lose interest and move to the next F2P cash shop.
Paying not to look like a hobo in BDO, it is like a shaming initiation by Pearl Abyss to force you to buy an outfit. It just goes to prove they will always think of new ideas to get you to part with cash. And on my other theme here of 'its not just whales that pay' you can see how some of the elements above are 'encouraging' all players to pay.
Playing POE currently and it definitely dresses the player in rags, if not downright silly looking gear like my current helm which looks like I'm wearing an oversized thimble or bell. (Stats are awesome though)
I joked with my friend when we first started his character appeared to be wearing a big white diaper, fortunately at least that's gone now.
Hey, I know they need to make money, but these cosmetics are expensive, can easily cost $20 to $40 to outfit one's avatar with just one outfit, and some bundles range up to near $500.
They even lock the gear to the character and sell a stone or something to remove it, hopefully to be applied to another avatar I think.
People call POE one of the better cash shop models, but I disagree. While I am easily able to ignore the cosmetics, being a classic horder I almost immediately felt the need to buy $20 bucks of storage space, and only a month or so in find myself contemplating further purchases. (If they offered backpack space expansion it would be an immediate buy)
Its actually fairly insidious as there appears to be no way to earn or trade for these items in game, you have to buy them in the cash shop or go without.
Yo bro, they don't lock the gear to the character. You just haven't used the interface appropriately. With PoE as with most things in gaming, just wait for a sale. I usually buy packs, you can get a decent pack for $30 that comes with a full cosmetic kit and then like 300 spending points.
You can be like me, if a character doesn't hit 90, then they don't get to purchase new cosmetics.
The only possibly controversial thing in PoE is the stash space, the rest you don't really need. It is still the best monetization out there. They have sales every day, so i only buy cosmetic items on sale . I wish i could gift you MTX but i can't. They also give away free loot boxes from time to time.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
But what he said is true. Subscription games often put in "time sinks" to slow players down, so they'd be playing and paying longer. Items that had a slim chance of dropping, seemingly long spawn timers, hell levels that seemed to take forever to get through. Subscriptions are not a perfect solution, but much more preferable to cash shops for me.
The argument I literally laugh out loud at is, "Subs make me feel like I have to log in." If you don't even want to play a sub game, cancel your sub and move on. How often do you use your subscription based phone? How about your subscription based cable/satellite TV? How often does subscription based Netflix MAKE you watch something? No, ONLY games get to force people to play...
So you will quit Netflix/cable TV if you do not like one show?
Funny story, I'm considering cancelling my monthly sub to cable TV as most of my viewing these days is on Netflix/Prime.
Just need to figure out what the best source for Network programming and news might be.
I'm basically doing so because there are cheaper yet acceptable alternatives these days which is similar to what went down in the MMO space.
My son has already gone the no cable TV route at his home, watches everything over the internet.
Depending on where you live, the over the air stations have really improved in the last 20 years I had cable. I get like 50 channels over the air, some are crap, but there is a Sci Fi channel that plays really old 50's stuff and some 80's B movies and the like. Then there is H&I channel that has 5 hours of Star Trek 6 nights a week. All the classic series from TOS and TNG to Enterprise.
There are channels that show the old sitcoms, westerns, police dramas.
I was really surprised when I cut the cord what was available for free. Better shows than cable, and all the stuff I missed when I was working all the time and raising a family that I can now watch.
If there is something I REALLY want to see on cable now, like a sporting event, I go to the bar and watch it.
I'll NEVER go back to cable.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
Cash shops answer the question, "do most people want to play games in which they earn rewards, or just have things?" Answer seems to be just have things.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Cash shops answer the question, "do most people want to play games in which they earn rewards, or just have things?" Answer seems to be just have things.
A reflection on our society look at how many plaudits Olympic athletes get but only when the Olympics is on. Who is getting the media attention all year round, celebrities, and you can be a celebrity purely by being attractive and having a big arse. Just 'having things' beats working for it you are given a choice, a failing of human nature.
In gaming the only answer is to remove 'just having/buying' things, hence why subscription is so good. In such games you won't get players complaining about the reward system, they game for that sense of achievement. But once systems are brought in to buy and bypass the earning, people give up doing it the "hard" way. Of course it never was the 'hard way' until those systems where introduced.
Kind of reminds me of the ethos of the Iron Islands in Game of Thrones. Did you buy that necklace, or did you pay the iron price?
....it is more a reminder that some people can't make valid analogies, and probably have difficulties distinguishing the difference between reality and fantasy/fiction.
Kind of reminds me of the ethos of the Iron Islands in Game of Thrones. Did you buy that necklace, or did you pay the iron price?
....it is more a reminder that some people can't make valid analogies, and probably have difficulties distinguishing the difference between reality and fantasy/fiction.
....this post itself being a reminder that you're an Edge Lord who constructs your own little reality with which you judge others.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The thing about this is I recall the Facebook games of yore. Talk about milking money. You do 2 to 3 activities then get to wait while your "activity bar" fills back up, usually a matter of days. OR, go spend a buck or two and get an insta-fill. Since those activities may take from 5 to 10 minutes, you get to buy those refills 6 times an hour, all at a buck or two a piece. Because of this experience, ALL cash shops feel the same to me.
Face it, companies want your money. They will do anything and everything to get it. I prefer subs because that puts a cap on what they get, making them work harder to retain their players. Unfortunately, that's a win for the consumer and we all know businesses dislike that scenario
The problem here, is that is was not a win for anyone.
To use your facebook example, F2P games and Sub games use the same mechanics, they will put in artificial time sinks designed to slow you down, so you can't do too much too soon and complete the game too quickly. Both Systems apply this method.
So, regardless if you are paying a sub or using an item mall, you still end up with a system where you do some activities and then you need to wait for your activity bar to fill back up, because both systems need to slow down how fast you can complete content to make you spend the most amount of time doing.
The difference between a F2P game and a Sub, is the F2P game, the time sinks are designed to get you to spend money to bypass them, the Sub game the time sinks are designed to directly slow down your progress to keep you paying the sub.
Explain to me how that is a win for anyone?
In reality, The players lose in both cases due to artificial time sinks needing to be put in both systems.
Just with the Sub, the company loses because the mechanic pisses people off and they quit.
Which is the lesser evil?
$15 vs ???
A direct answer to this.. the ???
Mainly because it makes it easier for a player to take breaks due to burn out, and allows players to control how much they spend.
Which was hy F2P/Cash Shop games have become the norm.
While I may disagree with some of the antics and asshole moves that some games have done to fleeces their players, Cash Shops have proven to be overall better than a Sub based system.
Personally, I rather B2P games, with no Sub, using Expansions and a Cash Shop to survive, this eliminates the delusion of "Free2Play".
Because I really think that whole "Free2Play" advertisement, is where everything goes wrong.
I could also get behind open ended trail play, with the full understanding that it is just a trial of the game, and that full game is still B2P.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Also we are told the proportion who pay is tiny, so you can under stand my puzzlement that we get so many comments about bad cash shops in F2P games and what people have paid. I have even done so myself a couple of times, anyone can get suckered in. So I recon one or maybe a few payments are far more common than players think, hence the poll. Lets see how many minnows are swimming with the whales.
I doubt it's as small as these studios claim, otherwise the AAAs wouldn't feel the need to go there for their profits (at the risk of alienating their player base).
They know just how addicting video games are, they know parents also don't watch their credit card spending very closely, either (remember publishers target the 15-22 year-old market because they're supported financially by mommy and daddy. And because they're most influenced by toy sales [the Nintendo marketing scheme since the 1990s]).
Disposible income THEY want. Not the struggling student with $100,000 school loans they have to payback on their own.
So that's more like marketing by publishers, so regulators don't go snooping around on backdoor gambling (which IS what loot boxes and cash shops with RNG loot became).
I tested some of these games, and they're SMALL companies (some are resellers of exported games from China or Korea) with almost non-existent customer service even by email. I had a Chinese made game even steal my email address (I use throw away emails for such experiments, so know exactly what game resold the email, too), and sure enough they used it for a WoW account. Blizzard sent numerous warnings until they had enough and told them they were banned from WoW. They got an email address, but they couldn't get into the email account problem to appease Blizzard, either.
Have you ever tried emailing Warframe on issues in the game? If you get a response in 2 WEEKS, you're doing well ... if they don't answer with a troll reply. Tencent owns Digital Extremes now, BTW.
Make darn sure to use disposible emails with those companies.
The video game industry today is exactly the symptom of a disease that once plagued the auto industry. Until consumers had enough of getting lemons and paying for the repairs (screwing customers both ways), and the "lemon laws" were passed to combat the exploitation.
But it will take angry parents to do that, not 15-22 year-olds, though (as they too busy being addicted to those loot boxes even -- they don't pay afterall, right???).
The reason why things are the way they are in gaming today is we simply have many other choices....How many MMOs do they list on this site? More than 600 isn't it? While probably half of those are not very valid, they are still out there.....What if we had over 600 different cable companies in our area and some offered free service and you can pay for what you want?....Wouldn't many people like that?...At lest with cash shops you can choose what you want to buy...Whether it be a mount, a costume, added storage, whatever.....Sub games you basically pay $15 for the right to play the game and that's about it...many of them charge for extras too.
The reason why things are the way they are in gaming today is we simply have many other choices....How many MMOs do they list on this site? More than 600 isn't it? While probably half of those are not very valid, they are still out there.....What if we had over 600 different cable companies in our area and some offered free service and you can pay for what you want?....Wouldn't many people like that?...At lest with cash shops you can choose what you want to buy...Whether it be a mount, a costume, added storage, whatever.....Sub games you basically pay $15 for the right to play the game and that's about it...many of them charge for extras too.
Oversupply has been a big factor for ages, it is just not the only one.
The video game industry today is exactly the symptom of a disease that once plagued the auto industry. Until consumers had enough of getting lemons and paying for the repairs (screwing customers both ways), and the "lemon laws" were passed to combat the exploitation.
But it will take angry parents to do that, not 15-22 year-olds, though (as they too busy being addicted to those loot boxes even -- they don't pay afterall, right???).
The Lemon laws are a fair analogy, once gaming went digital
sometimes we have had to put up with the most appalling half finished games
being launched.
I do put a lot of this at the doorstep of new players, teenagers don't have the
gaming experience we do that things can be done a fairer way. But as children
they are being fed loot box and gambling culture as toys and they would be hard
pressed to find a fair MMORPG even if they were looking for one. So what chance
do they have of realising what a con gaming has become?
Blizzard has been trying to nerf/get rid of the Water Strider. But we all thought it was due to water walking. The Water Strider is in fact a 2 stat mount, it offers fall reduction too (just like the Panderian 1/2 fall damage racial).
That's WHY the mount couldn't be used in PvP zones, either.
Blizzard out of nowhere NOW decides we need equipment slots on our mounts. They operate just like gemming does -- once socketed you can't get it redeemed again as it's destroyed (sweet monetization there, huh?).
They want EVERY toon to have individual slots, no more BoA (account wide benefits). Even more items to buy for your 50 characters PER account (it's gold now. Who knows what it will be PER expansion)?
Back to the Water Strider. The equipment slot system is only 1 slot (for now). The Water Strider has 2 abilities though (one known and one we just found out). Blizzard is trying to slide us the water walking shoes only, meanwhile taking back the fall reduction.
Dirty long-term game they're playing. Taking back what we already had for years, and effectively killing what they wanted dead in WoD. Then making us PAY for the privilege.
Very passive-aggressive behavior from a studio, too.
You can't call Blizzard a liar if they don't mention what a mount really has as abilities, so I can't call them liars. But they sure are short on information.
If you still play WoW, get your mounts out and see if they have another ability like fall reduction or any other undocumented feature. Post about it in that thread. Because THAT is what's going to be removed in the "new" equipment slot scheme.
i stopped coming here and posting almost entirely...but yes i remember the cash shop debates of 2009.
Good to see you again! The debates haven't changed much, but the games' monetization have, moving to about 90% F2P and 99% with cash shops (I'm sure there's one MMO without a cash shop out there...)
PS: How is your game coming along? Sorry, but I haven't been following it.
i don't think you got the right person...to my knowledge i wasnt making a game.
Dang! There goes my memory another notch down the tubes. Sorry for that mix-up, but good to see you anyway
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Blizzard has been trying to nerf/get rid of the Water Strider. But we all thought it was due to water walking. The Water Strider is in fact a 2 stat mount, it offers fall reduction too (just like the Panderian 1/2 fall damage racial).
That's WHY the mount couldn't be used in PvP zones, either.
Blizzard out of nowhere NOW decides we need equipment slots on our mounts. They operate just like gemming does -- once socketed you can't get it redeemed again as it's destroyed (sweet monetization there, huh?).
They want EVERY toon to have individual slots, no more BoA (account wide benefits). Even more items to buy for your 50 characters PER account (it's gold now. Who knows what it will be PER expansion)?
Back to the Water Strider. The equipment slot system is only 1 slot (for now). The Water Strider has 2 abilities though (one known and one we just found out). Blizzard is trying to slide us the water walking shoes only, meanwhile taking back the fall reduction.
Dirty long-term game they're playing. Taking back what we already had for years, and effectively killing what they wanted dead in WoD. Then making us PAY for the privilege.
Very passive-aggressive behavior from a studio, too.
You can't call Blizzard a liar if they don't mention what a mount really has as abilities, so I can't call them liars. But they sure are short on information.
If you still play WoW, get your mounts out and see if they have another ability like fall reduction or any other undocumented feature. Post about it in that thread. Because THAT is what's going to be removed in the "new" equipment slot scheme.
Monetarization changes are never ending on the journey to a GaaS, which in turn I just see as a pit stop in the evolution of worst practise we have seen since cash shops began. It won't stop at GaaS.
For a MMORPG like WoW which started subscription only and set up many systems on the basis of that model, the move to ever more monetarization is going to be quite jarring.
Monetarization changes are never ending on the journey to a GaaS, which in turn I just see as a pit stop in the evolution of worst practise we have seen since cash shops began. It won't stop at GaaS.
For a MMORPG like WoW which started subscription only and set up many systems on the basis of that model, the move to ever more monetarization is going to be quite jarring.
If you haven't followed this, watch the video.
The one link in all of it is Tencent (who's buying up studios). Tencent owned studios have a particular way they moderate forums with weird LONG ban notices on their forums (in Warframe people go nuts seeing bans until 2035. Yesterday, I checked the WoW forums [I've been banned there since the Diablo RMAH mayhem days] and sure enough the SAME ban date scheme is used. It shows 2999 [they hate me, as I don't take BS and told them so]).
It didn't even exist a couple days ago, it does now.
Watch (Belluar is one of the few YouTube game commentators who's "fair", not pro and not anti)...
What happened is they discovered the market would bear a great deal more than they thought possible, so they started to test just how much weight would be tolerated.
Essentially, if they buy it more will come. So they did, and so it has. Classic vicious circle.
So long as consumers support this expansion trend it will continue.
Long ago and far away when MMOs began incorporating cash shops people would often decry no matter how benign it was a slippery slope which once started down there would be no going back.
How right they were, but the analogy implies gamers sliding downhill with little to no control which isn't really accurate.
@TimEisen once wrote there was no monetization "hill" gamers weren't willing to climb, and I think its been proven many willingly embrace the different ways developers have found to separate them from their cash.
Indeed, we've never met a pay-wall we couldn't scale!
A wonderful testament to human nature, but then us humans can be flawed. That's where regulation (both parents and governments) should step in. For gaming I would point the finger at the gambling elements and the age kids get to play even when underage for the games rating.
Not saying that would be a magic bullet, but it would sure help.
Comments
I joked with my friend when we first started his character appeared to be wearing a big white diaper, fortunately at least that's gone now.
Hey, I know they need to make money, but these cosmetics are expensive, can easily cost $20 to $40 to outfit one's avatar with just one outfit, and some bundles range up to near $500.
They even lock the gear to the character and sell a stone or something to remove it, hopefully to be applied to another avatar I think.
People call POE one of the better cash shop models, but I disagree. While I am easily able to ignore the cosmetics, being a classic horder I almost immediately felt the need to buy $20 bucks of storage space, and only a month or so in find myself contemplating further purchases. (If they offered backpack space expansion it would be an immediate buy)
Its actually fairly insidious as there appears to be no way to earn or trade for these items in game, you have to buy them in the cash shop or go without.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You can be like me, if a character doesn't hit 90, then they don't get to purchase new cosmetics.
The only possibly controversial thing in PoE is the stash space, the rest you don't really need. It is still the best monetization out there. They have sales every day, so i only buy cosmetic items on sale
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
There are channels that show the old sitcoms, westerns, police dramas.
I was really surprised when I cut the cord what was available for free. Better shows than cable, and all the stuff I missed when I was working all the time and raising a family that I can now watch.
If there is something I REALLY want to see on cable now, like a sporting event, I go to the bar and watch it.
I'll NEVER go back to cable.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
In gaming the only answer is to remove 'just having/buying' things, hence why subscription is so good. In such games you won't get players complaining about the reward system, they game for that sense of achievement. But once systems are brought in to buy and bypass the earning, people give up doing it the "hard" way. Of course it never was the 'hard way' until those systems where introduced.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Mainly because it makes it easier for a player to take breaks due to burn out, and allows players to control how much they spend.
Which was hy F2P/Cash Shop games have become the norm.
While I may disagree with some of the antics and asshole moves that some games have done to fleeces their players, Cash Shops have proven to be overall better than a Sub based system.
Personally, I rather B2P games, with no Sub, using Expansions and a Cash Shop to survive, this eliminates the delusion of "Free2Play".
Because I really think that whole "Free2Play" advertisement, is where everything goes wrong.
I could also get behind open ended trail play, with the full understanding that it is just a trial of the game, and that full game is still B2P.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
The Lemon laws are a fair analogy, once gaming went digital sometimes we have had to put up with the most appalling half finished games being launched.
I do put a lot of this at the doorstep of new players, teenagers don't have the gaming experience we do that things can be done a fairer way. But as children they are being fed loot box and gambling culture as toys and they would be hard pressed to find a fair MMORPG even if they were looking for one. So what chance do they have of realising what a con gaming has become?
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
For a MMORPG like WoW which started subscription only and set up many systems on the basis of that model, the move to ever more monetarization is going to be quite jarring.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
That being said for GW2, I barely spend any money. So it is actually cheaper(for me) to play a game like GW2.
Not saying that would be a magic bullet, but it would sure help.