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What Ever Happened To The F2P Cash Shop?

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  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,138
    AlBQuirky said:
    The thing about this is I recall the Facebook games of yore. Talk about milking money. You do 2 to 3 activities then get to wait while your "activity bar" fills back up, usually a matter of days. OR, go spend a buck or two and get an insta-fill. Since those activities may take from 5 to 10 minutes, you get to buy those refills 6 times an hour, all at a buck or two a piece. Because of this experience, ALL cash shops feel the same to me.

    Face it, companies want your money. They will do anything and everything to get it. I prefer subs because that puts a cap on what they get, making them work harder to retain their players. Unfortunately, that's a win for the consumer and we all know businesses dislike that scenario :)
    The problem here, is that is was not a win for anyone.

    To use your facebook example, F2P games and Sub games use the same mechanics, they will put in artificial time sinks designed to slow you down, so you can't do too much too soon and complete the game too quickly. Both Systems apply this method.

    So, regardless if you are paying a sub or using an item mall, you still end up with a system where you do some activities and then you need to wait for your activity bar to fill back up, because both systems need to slow down how fast you can complete content to make you spend the most amount of time doing.

    The difference between a F2P game and a Sub, is the F2P game, the time sinks are designed to get you to spend money to bypass them, the Sub game the time sinks are designed to directly slow down your progress to keep you paying the sub.

    Explain to me how that is a win for anyone?

    In reality, The players lose in both cases due to artificial time sinks needing to be put in both systems.

    Just with the Sub, the company loses because the mechanic pisses people off and they quit.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,283
    edited April 2019
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    The thing about this is I recall the Facebook games of yore. Talk about milking money. You do 2 to 3 activities then get to wait while your "activity bar" fills back up, usually a matter of days. OR, go spend a buck or two and get an insta-fill. Since those activities may take from 5 to 10 minutes, you get to buy those refills 6 times an hour, all at a buck or two a piece. Because of this experience, ALL cash shops feel the same to me.

    Face it, companies want your money. They will do anything and everything to get it. I prefer subs because that puts a cap on what they get, making them work harder to retain their players. Unfortunately, that's a win for the consumer and we all know businesses dislike that scenario :)
    The problem here, is that is was not a win for anyone.

    To use your facebook example, F2P games and Sub games use the same mechanics, they will put in artificial time sinks designed to slow you down, so you can't do too much too soon and complete the game too quickly. Both Systems apply this method.

    So, regardless if you are paying a sub or using an item mall, you still end up with a system where you do some activities and then you need to wait for your activity bar to fill back up, because both systems need to slow down how fast you can complete content to make you spend the most amount of time doing.

    The difference between a F2P game and a Sub, is the F2P game, the time sinks are designed to get you to spend money to bypass them, the Sub game the time sinks are designed to directly slow down your progress to keep you paying the sub.

    Explain to me how that is a win for anyone?

    In reality, The players lose in both cases due to artificial time sinks needing to be put in both systems.

    Just with the Sub, the company loses because the mechanic pisses people off and they quit.
    Which is the lesser evil?

    $15 vs ???  >:)
    GdemamiAlBQuirky

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    You actually lose a lot more than just the time sinks implemented differently in the two cases. Take for example two successful eastern mmorpgs, BDO and FFXIV. One requires you to spend a subscription to play. The other requires you to pay to:
    • Have a functional UI,
    • Get play utility like collecting loot
    • Inventory spaces
    • A way to not look like a hobo
    • Pay your way to end game upgrades
    • Repay everything for each alt you make all over again
    • and more (a bit in a hurry but I'm sure you can write more differences)
    A subscription is always the bargain deal. F2P cash shop is all about milking as much as possible before you lose interest and move to the next F2P cash shop.
    GdemamiScotAlBQuirkyWargfoot
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,577
    Xasapis said:
    You actually lose a lot more than just the time sinks implemented differently in the two cases. Take for example two successful eastern mmorpgs, BDO and FFXIV. One requires you to spend a subscription to play. The other requires you to pay to:
    • Have a functional UI,
    • Get play utility like collecting loot
    • Inventory spaces
    • A way to not look like a hobo
    • Pay your way to end game upgrades
    • Repay everything for each alt you make all over again
    • and more (a bit in a hurry but I'm sure you can write more differences)
    A subscription is always the bargain deal. F2P cash shop is all about milking as much as possible before you lose interest and move to the next F2P cash shop.
    but it depends on the player...I am playing BDO right now...i haven't spent any money on it yet, and I may or may not, but it is purely my call....FFXIV you ahve no choice... the root of the argument for many of us is choice.
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,311
    Xasapis said:
    You actually lose a lot more than just the time sinks implemented differently in the two cases. Take for example two successful eastern mmorpgs, BDO and FFXIV. One requires you to spend a subscription to play. The other requires you to pay to:
    • Have a functional UI,
    • Get play utility like collecting loot
    • Inventory spaces
    • A way to not look like a hobo
    • Pay your way to end game upgrades
    • Repay everything for each alt you make all over again
    • and more (a bit in a hurry but I'm sure you can write more differences)
    A subscription is always the bargain deal. F2P cash shop is all about milking as much as possible before you lose interest and move to the next F2P cash shop.
    but it depends on the player...I am playing BDO right now...i haven't spent any money on it yet, and I may or may not, but it is purely my call....FFXIV you ahve no choice... the root of the argument for many of us is choice.
    The choice to play a lesser version of the game... that's some choice.
    GdemamiKyleranWargfootNildenAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,207
    i stopped coming here and posting almost entirely...but yes i remember the cash shop debates of 2009. 

    image

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,071
    gervaise1 said:
    Adults should - key word should - be able to see through persuasive (or should that be deceptive marketing). The same can be said about gambling and slot machines but a whole host of places seem to disagree.

    When it comes to children in particular though there is clearly enough evidence to persuade lawmakers in multiple countries that some control is needed.

    So you are entirely correct they clearly can go into your wallet, presumably by messing with your head. 
    ...oh, we almost forgot about the children!

    eh...you can do better, I think...
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    Wargfoot said:
    ikcin said:
    The biggest advantage of F2P is the reach. 15 USD per month is a small sum in US, Japan, Canada, Australia and Western EU. In Eastern EU, Russia, Turkey and China, it is not so small, but affordable, in India, East Asia and Latin America 15 USD is expensive. But with F2P everyone pays as much as he can. So you have a global market. Even Blizzard was selling WoW in China for example with huge discounts, actually it was very close to F2P there.
    So people who cannot afford $15 per month are the money tree the game developers are shaking?
    They need players to make money from players. So every publisher will gladly take your time, if you do not have enough money. Also it is a question of scale. To take 5 bucks from 20 million people is much better than to take 15 bucks from 2 millions. F2P gives you a scale, reach to much bigger audience. The problem are many of the actual selling practices. F2P is a great idea for the MMOs, that the aggressive marketing is destroying.
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    edited April 2019
    AlBQuirky said:
    But what he said is true. Subscription games often put in "time sinks" to slow players down, so they'd be playing and paying longer. Items that had a slim chance of dropping, seemingly long spawn timers, hell levels that seemed to take forever to get through. Subscriptions are not a perfect solution, but much more preferable to cash shops for me.

    The argument I literally laugh out loud at is, "Subs make me feel like I have to log in." If you don't even want to play a sub game, cancel your sub and move on. How often do you use your subscription based phone? How about your subscription based cable/satellite TV? How often does subscription based Netflix MAKE you watch something? No, ONLY games get to force people to play...
    So you will quit Netflix/cable TV if you do not like one show?
    Post edited by ikcin on
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,032
    edited April 2019
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood Said: It had also been proven that F2P games had a much higher return rate than sub games.

    --------------------------------------------

    I don't doubt this; however, I do have a question about it.

    Do we have a triple AAA title out there that is FTP and delivers the quality of content of the subscription triple AAA titles of the past?

    While I'm sure the FTP is generating a ton of money, and may in fact be keeping the doors open on failing sub-based titles - is the huge cash influx resulting in new, high quality content?

    It seems to me that a subscription implies 'more content coming soon'.  Good story telling and all that sort of thing.  FTP seems to be more about 'more shop items coming soon' - do FTP games (with cash shop, no sub) get the high quality content of the past?

    I ask this because IMHO, I think there is room out there for a $25.00 per month sub provided it is high quality with frequent updates - an absolutely no cash shop.  I think people are willing to pay for a high end experience.
    I am not exactly sure how to gauge this question, and to the best of what I could figure out, neither does any of the Data collection agencies that I frequent.

    Keep in mind, this is a hard question, as "AAA titles of the past" typically only provided new content in the form of expansions, which were a box fee and a sub fee to access, and currently a lot of F2P MMO's also use expansions for direct content updates.

    There are outliers, but as far as I can tell, not enough to really get a hard metric on this kind of question.
    I appreciate this response.
    I'm actually enjoying the cash shop on Elite Dangerous, which surprises me a little bit.
    It isn't pay-to-win though.

    I *think* if my current buying holds pace I'd probably be about in the same territory as a $15 per month sub.  Maybe a little bit more.
    ED still not P2W? That's good considering how long it has been out, I usually give a cash shop that starts as non-P2W a year before it goes P2W.

    AIBQuirky hits the nail on the head about that old "Subs mean I have to log on" nonsense, does anyone say that about Netflix or Sky? But somehow in subscription games it is an issue?
    GdemamiAlBQuirky

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,032
    edited April 2019
    Xasapis said:
    You actually lose a lot more than just the time sinks implemented differently in the two cases. Take for example two successful eastern mmorpgs, BDO and FFXIV. One requires you to spend a subscription to play. The other requires you to pay to:
    • Have a functional UI,
    • Get play utility like collecting loot
    • Inventory spaces
    • A way to not look like a hobo
    • Pay your way to end game upgrades
    • Repay everything for each alt you make all over again
    • and more (a bit in a hurry but I'm sure you can write more differences)
    A subscription is always the bargain deal. F2P cash shop is all about milking as much as possible before you lose interest and move to the next F2P cash shop.
    Paying not to look like a hobo in BDO, it is like a shaming initiation by Pearl Abyss to force you to buy an outfit. It just goes to prove they will always think of new ideas to get you to part with cash. And on my other theme here of 'its not just whales that pay' you can see how some of the elements above are 'encouraging' all players to pay.
    GdemamiAlBQuirky

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,158
    Robokapp said:
    i stopped coming here and posting almost entirely...but yes i remember the cash shop debates of 2009. 
    Good to see you again! The debates haven't changed much, but the games' monetization have, moving to about 90% F2P and 99% with cash shops (I'm sure there's one MMO without a cash shop out there...) :)

    PS: How is your game coming along? Sorry, but I haven't been following it.
    Scot

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • WarEnsembleWarEnsemble Member UncommonPosts: 252
    Truthfully, as much as I detest paying a sub for a game, if I was single without kids I would resub to EQ1 and raid 24/7 just like I used to without consideration.
    Scot
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited April 2019
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    The thing about this is I recall the Facebook games of yore. Talk about milking money. You do 2 to 3 activities then get to wait while your "activity bar" fills back up, usually a matter of days. OR, go spend a buck or two and get an insta-fill. Since those activities may take from 5 to 10 minutes, you get to buy those refills 6 times an hour, all at a buck or two a piece. Because of this experience, ALL cash shops feel the same to me.

    Face it, companies want your money. They will do anything and everything to get it. I prefer subs because that puts a cap on what they get, making them work harder to retain their players. Unfortunately, that's a win for the consumer and we all know businesses dislike that scenario :)
    The problem here, is that is was not a win for anyone.

    To use your facebook example, F2P games and Sub games use the same mechanics, they will put in artificial time sinks designed to slow you down, so you can't do too much too soon and complete the game too quickly. Both Systems apply this method.

    So, regardless if you are paying a sub or using an item mall, you still end up with a system where you do some activities and then you need to wait for your activity bar to fill back up, because both systems need to slow down how fast you can complete content to make you spend the most amount of time doing.

    The difference between a F2P game and a Sub, is the F2P game, the time sinks are designed to get you to spend money to bypass them, the Sub game the time sinks are designed to directly slow down your progress to keep you paying the sub.

    Explain to me how that is a win for anyone?

    In reality, The players lose in both cases due to artificial time sinks needing to be put in both systems.

    Just with the Sub, the company loses because the mechanic pisses people off and they quit.
    I would say that, faced with the option of: "I need to play more of the gameplay I enjoy to get that item" is much better than "I need to wait 3 days to continue the gameplay I enjoy".

    Activity bars that halt the gamer's progress completely, thereby eliminating any benefit to continue playing until the timer has expired, are much worse.


    Take that formula, mix it into a sub-based game, and it's the absolute worst.  See WoW's time-gating via daily/weekly quests for an example.  It's one of the main criticisms of BfA and, indeed, of Legion.
    GdemamiScotUngood

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,166
    ikcin said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    But what he said is true. Subscription games often put in "time sinks" to slow players down, so they'd be playing and paying longer. Items that had a slim chance of dropping, seemingly long spawn timers, hell levels that seemed to take forever to get through. Subscriptions are not a perfect solution, but much more preferable to cash shops for me.

    The argument I literally laugh out loud at is, "Subs make me feel like I have to log in." If you don't even want to play a sub game, cancel your sub and move on. How often do you use your subscription based phone? How about your subscription based cable/satellite TV? How often does subscription based Netflix MAKE you watch something? No, ONLY games get to force people to play...
    So you will quit Netflix/cable TV if you do not like one show?
    Funny story, I'm considering cancelling my monthly sub to cable TV as most of my viewing these days is on Netflix/Prime.

    Just need to figure out what the best source for Network programming and news might be.

    I'm basically doing so because there are cheaper yet acceptable alternatives these days which is similar to what went down in the MMO space.

    My son has already gone the no cable TV route at his home, watches everything over the internet.



    paulythebikcinScotTorval

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,166
    edited April 2019
    Scot said:
    Xasapis said:
    You actually lose a lot more than just the time sinks implemented differently in the two cases. Take for example two successful eastern mmorpgs, BDO and FFXIV. One requires you to spend a subscription to play. The other requires you to pay to:
    • Have a functional UI,
    • Get play utility like collecting loot
    • Inventory spaces
    • A way to not look like a hobo
    • Pay your way to end game upgrades
    • Repay everything for each alt you make all over again
    • and more (a bit in a hurry but I'm sure you can write more differences)
    A subscription is always the bargain deal. F2P cash shop is all about milking as much as possible before you lose interest and move to the next F2P cash shop.
    Paying not to look like a hobo in BDO, it is like a shaming initiation by Pearl Abyss to force you to buy an outfit. It just goes to prove they will always think of new ideas to get you to part with cash. And on my other theme here of 'its not just whales that pay' you can see how some of the elements above are 'encouraging' all players to pay.
    Playing POE currently and it definitely dresses the player in rags, if not downright silly looking gear like my current helm which looks like I'm wearing an oversized thimble or bell. (Stats are awesome though)

    I joked with my friend when we first started his character appeared to be wearing a big white diaper, fortunately at least that's  gone now.

    Hey,  I know they need to make money, but these cosmetics are expensive,  can easily cost $20 to $40 to outfit one's avatar with just one outfit, and some bundles range up to near $500.

    They even lock the gear to the character and sell a stone or something to remove it, hopefully to be applied to another avatar I think.

    People call POE one of the better cash shop models, but I disagree.   While I am easily able to ignore the cosmetics, being a classic horder I almost immediately felt the need to buy $20 bucks of storage space, and only a month or so in find myself contemplating further purchases. (If they offered backpack space expansion it would be an immediate buy)

    Its actually fairly insidious as there appears to be no way to earn or trade for these items in game,  you have to buy them in the cash shop or go without.

    GdemamiTorvalAlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,940
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    Xasapis said:
    You actually lose a lot more than just the time sinks implemented differently in the two cases. Take for example two successful eastern mmorpgs, BDO and FFXIV. One requires you to spend a subscription to play. The other requires you to pay to:
    • Have a functional UI,
    • Get play utility like collecting loot
    • Inventory spaces
    • A way to not look like a hobo
    • Pay your way to end game upgrades
    • Repay everything for each alt you make all over again
    • and more (a bit in a hurry but I'm sure you can write more differences)
    A subscription is always the bargain deal. F2P cash shop is all about milking as much as possible before you lose interest and move to the next F2P cash shop.
    Paying not to look like a hobo in BDO, it is like a shaming initiation by Pearl Abyss to force you to buy an outfit. It just goes to prove they will always think of new ideas to get you to part with cash. And on my other theme here of 'its not just whales that pay' you can see how some of the elements above are 'encouraging' all players to pay.
    Playing POE currently and it definitely dresses the player in rags, if not downright silly looking gear like my current helm which looks like I'm wearing an oversized thimble or bell. (Stats are awesome though)

    I joked with my friend when we first started his character appeared to be wearing a big white diaper, fortunately at least that's  gone now.

    Hey,  I know they need to make money, but these cosmetics are expensive,  can easily cost $20 to $40 to outfit one's avatar with just one outfit, and some bundles range up to near $500.

    They even lock the gear to the character and sell a stone or something to remove it, hopefully to be applied to another avatar I think.

    People call POE one of the better cash shop models, but I disagree.   While I am easily able to ignore the cosmetics, being a classic horder I almost immediately felt the need to buy $20 bucks of storage space, and only a month or so in find myself contemplating further purchases. (If they offered backpack space expansion it would be an immediate buy)

    Its actually fairly insidious as there appears to be no way to earn or trade for these items in game,  you have to buy them in the cash shop or go without.

    Yo bro, they don't lock the gear to the character. You just haven't used the interface appropriately. With PoE as with most things in gaming, just wait for a sale. I usually buy packs, you can get a decent pack for $30 that comes with a full cosmetic kit and then like 300 spending points. 

    You can be like me, if a character doesn't hit 90, then they don't get to purchase new cosmetics. 

    The only possibly controversial thing in PoE is the stash space, the rest you don't really need. It is still the best monetization out there. They have sales every day, so i only buy cosmetic items on sale :). I wish i could gift you MTX but i can't. They also give away free loot boxes from time to time. 
    Scot
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 257
    ikcin said:
    Wargfoot said:
    ikcin said:
    The biggest advantage of F2P is the reach. 15 USD per month is a small sum in US, Japan, Canada, Australia and Western EU. In Eastern EU, Russia, Turkey and China, it is not so small, but affordable, in India, East Asia and Latin America 15 USD is expensive. But with F2P everyone pays as much as he can. So you have a global market. Even Blizzard was selling WoW in China for example with huge discounts, actually it was very close to F2P there.
    So people who cannot afford $15 per month are the money tree the game developers are shaking?
    They need players to make money from players. So every publisher will gladly take your time, if you do not have enough money. Also it is a question of scale. To take 5 bucks from 20 million people is much better than to take 15 bucks from 2 millions. F2P gives you a scale, reach to much bigger audience. The problem are many of the actual selling practices. F2P is a great idea for the MMOs, that the aggressive marketing is destroying.
    I don't mind if other people want free to play titles anymore than I mind people going to McDonald's.... as long as I can get still get a real hamburger somewhere.
    GdemamiScotAlBQuirky
  • paulythebpaulytheb Member UncommonPosts: 363
    Kyleran said:
    ikcin said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    But what he said is true. Subscription games often put in "time sinks" to slow players down, so they'd be playing and paying longer. Items that had a slim chance of dropping, seemingly long spawn timers, hell levels that seemed to take forever to get through. Subscriptions are not a perfect solution, but much more preferable to cash shops for me.

    The argument I literally laugh out loud at is, "Subs make me feel like I have to log in." If you don't even want to play a sub game, cancel your sub and move on. How often do you use your subscription based phone? How about your subscription based cable/satellite TV? How often does subscription based Netflix MAKE you watch something? No, ONLY games get to force people to play...
    So you will quit Netflix/cable TV if you do not like one show?
    Funny story, I'm considering cancelling my monthly sub to cable TV as most of my viewing these days is on Netflix/Prime.

    Just need to figure out what the best source for Network programming and news might be.

    I'm basically doing so because there are cheaper yet acceptable alternatives these days which is similar to what went down in the MMO space.

    My son has already gone the no cable TV route at his home, watches everything over the internet.



    Depending on where you live, the over the air stations have really improved in the last 20 years I had cable. I get like 50 channels over the air, some are crap, but there is a Sci Fi channel that plays really old 50's stuff and some 80's B movies and the like. Then there is H&I channel that has 5 hours of Star Trek 6 nights a week. All the classic series from TOS and TNG to Enterprise.

    There are channels that show the old sitcoms, westerns, police dramas.

    I was really surprised when I cut the cord what was available for free. Better shows than cable, and all the stuff I missed when I was working all the time and raising a family that I can now watch.

    If there is something I REALLY want to see on cable now, like a sporting event, I go to the bar and watch it.

    I'll NEVER go back to cable.
    AlBQuirky

    ( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)

    An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.

  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    Kyleran said:
    ikcin said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    But what he said is true. Subscription games often put in "time sinks" to slow players down, so they'd be playing and paying longer. Items that had a slim chance of dropping, seemingly long spawn timers, hell levels that seemed to take forever to get through. Subscriptions are not a perfect solution, but much more preferable to cash shops for me.

    The argument I literally laugh out loud at is, "Subs make me feel like I have to log in." If you don't even want to play a sub game, cancel your sub and move on. How often do you use your subscription based phone? How about your subscription based cable/satellite TV? How often does subscription based Netflix MAKE you watch something? No, ONLY games get to force people to play...
    So you will quit Netflix/cable TV if you do not like one show?
    Funny story, I'm considering cancelling my monthly sub to cable TV as most of my viewing these days is on Netflix/Prime.

    Just need to figure out what the best source for Network programming and news might be.

    I'm basically doing so because there are cheaper yet acceptable alternatives these days which is similar to what went down in the MMO space.

    My son has already gone the no cable TV route at his home, watches everything over the internet.
    The games are not so different. At the same time there are particular moments, that explains the attitude of the players. The common MMORPG is a complex product for daily usage similar to multiple shows or a channel. Also it is a product with infinite usage. And almost every game is kind of fun at the beginning, while you learn how to play. 

    The comparison with Netflix or cable TV is not very accurate. As, after the show ends, it is over Also, if you do not like one, could choose another in the same package. While the MMORPG does not give you such a choice. Yes, you could choose PvE or PvP - the WoW deal, but why will you progress, if you will never compete? Or why will you compete, if you could progress instead? With the TV shows the things are much simpler. But above all they end. After the end of the episode or the season, you can say - this is not for me. While in the games there is always the hope that the next update, or maybe the next part of the map, will fix the disappointment. Also the TV shows are not based on progression, and you do not compete. If you stop paying the fee, you will lose programs that you do not like anyway. If you stop paying for a game, you will lose the whole progress you made, also you will be noncompetitive in some fictional case, when the game is fixed with upcoming update. That is why the money paid for the game engage you. They are not like a ticket for entertainment, but like kind of investment into your character. And more you pay, more engaged you feel. That causes the whales into F2P games to pay more. And often the players who invest only time, to play more.
    Gdemami
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,179
    Cash shops answer the question, "do most people want to play games in which they earn rewards, or just have things?" Answer seems to be just have things.
    ScotGdemamiAlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,032
    edited April 2019
    Amathe said:
    Cash shops answer the question, "do most people want to play games in which they earn rewards, or just have things?" Answer seems to be just have things.
    A reflection on our society look at how many plaudits Olympic athletes get but only when the Olympics is on. Who is getting the media attention all year round, celebrities, and you can be a celebrity purely by being attractive and having a big arse. Just 'having things' beats working for it you are given a choice, a failing of human nature.

    In gaming the only answer is to remove 'just having/buying' things, hence why subscription is so good. In such games you won't get players complaining about the reward system, they game for that sense of achievement. But once systems are brought in to buy and bypass the earning, people give up doing it the "hard" way. Of course it never was the 'hard way' until those systems where introduced. 
    Gdemami

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  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,179
    Scot said:

     But once systems are brought in to buy and bypass the earning, people give up doing it the "hard" way. 
    Kind of reminds me of the ethos of the Iron Islands in Game of Thrones. Did you buy that necklace, or did you pay the iron price?
    ikcinScotGdemami

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    Amathe said:
    Cash shops answer the question, "do most people want to play games in which they earn rewards, or just have things?" Answer seems to be just have things.
    Oh, in most F2P games you get rewards constantly - you log in - here is your reward, you play 5 min, a new reward, common, one hour gameplay needs another reward, and etc. You do not exactly earn them, as you do not really compete, but you definitely get a lot of rewards. Or the BDO gambling system, it is amazing, but the casino always win.
    Scot
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,071
    Amathe said:
    Kind of reminds me of the ethos of the Iron Islands in Game of Thrones. Did you buy that necklace, or did you pay the iron price?
    ....it is more a reminder that some people can't make valid analogies, and probably have difficulties distinguishing the difference between reality and fantasy/fiction.
    Iselin
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