F2P was developed as a marketing counter to P2P... not as a counter to subscriptions. The simple premise of F2P is that you can save marketing costs (which can be as high or higher than the total development cost) on the game launch by getting your players to market for you. This has led to the current marketing by social influencer which is commonly used today.
Cash shop vs sub has played out in both F2P and P2P games for a completely different reason. A cash shop (and eventually loot boxes) are about increasing the average revenue per user vs the fixed value from a sub. As games slowly became more about the recurring revenue rather than the box/expansion sales cash shops won out due to the higher average.
The way to get P2P sub based games is to find a lower marketting cost for the sale of boxes/expansions. With that combination, you will see these types of launches and sales.
Well at this point it's kind of moot since many games are AAA prices with F2P gameplay and cash shops anyways.
I like subs but the game can't be shallow themepark. But again I don't believe there is any reason there won't be bait out there for whales in a cashshop for $59.99 game and $20.00 month game.
To me free to play with the cash shop makes more sense than p2p-. if the free-to-play game wants to get my money then they have to give me a good experience first. If I don't like it I don't pay. If I stop liking it I stop paying. If they don't have anything I want I never pay.
Pay-to-play and or subscription games they already have my money at least for the first monthmonth us before I've tried the game or at least tried significant portions of the game.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
For example, when developers intentionally put grinds into the game so that you by the 'half the grind' scroll in the shop. To me, it is obvious that the cash shop would give the studio incentive to make some things suck so that you buy the key that fixes the problem. That is BAD for players.
I have to laugh at people that wince at a $20 sub but then go on to spend 3x that in the cash shop.
...as opposed to case when developers intentionally put grinds into the game so that they bleed you not only for subscription fees but ton of your time on top.
Because that is actually GOOD for players.
/facepalm
At least players were playing and even <gasp> being sociable while grinding.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I'm not sure how you managed to read that into my post.
Shockingly, by reading what you wrote....
I didn't address the topic of adding grind to a paid subscription model. Given that the OP is about FTP I'd have to wonder why that topic would even come up.
You may have read it, but you also read into it.
If you could respond to what is actually written, or perhaps ask for clarification if something is confusing you, that would be great.
But what he said is true. Subscription games often put in "time sinks" to slow players down, so they'd be playing and paying longer. Items that had a slim chance of dropping, seemingly long spawn timers, hell levels that seemed to take forever to get through. Subscriptions are not a perfect solution, but much more preferable to cash shops for me.
The argument I literally laugh out loud at is, "Subs make me feel like I have to log in." If you don't even want to play a sub game, cancel your sub and move on. How often do you use your subscription based phone? How about your subscription based cable/satellite TV? How often does subscription based Netflix MAKE you watch something? No, ONLY games get to force people to play...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I remember the anti-subber period not too many years back. The white knights for F2P would bitch about how sub games were unfair because the no-lifers were always winning since they put in so many more hours than everyone else.
But then they would turn around and defend the F2P model because it wasn't really P2W if they could put in the time to grind out the gear they wanted.
To me free to play with the cash shop makes more sense than p2p-. if the free-to-play game wants to get my money then they have to give me a good experience first. If I don't like it I don't pay. If I stop liking it I stop paying. If they don't have anything I want I never pay.
Pay-to-play and or subscription games they already have my money at least for the first monthmonth us before I've tried the game or at least tried significant portions of the game.
Come now... Most Sub MMOs came with "First 30 days free!" with an initial purchase
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I'm not sure how you managed to read that into my post.
Shockingly, by reading what you wrote....
I didn't address the topic of adding grind to a paid subscription model. Given that the OP is about FTP I'd have to wonder why that topic would even come up.
You may have read it, but you also read into it.
If you could respond to what is actually written, or perhaps ask for clarification if something is confusing you, that would be great.
But what he said is true. Subscription games often put in "time sinks" to slow players down, so they'd be playing and paying longer. Items that had a slim chance of dropping, seemingly long spawn timers, hell levels that seemed to take forever to get through. Subscriptions are not a perfect solution, but much more preferable to cash shops for me.
The argument I literally laugh out loud at is, "Subs make me feel like I have to log in." If you don't even want to play a sub game, cancel your sub and move on. How often do you use your subscription based phone? How about your subscription based cable/satellite TV? How often does subscription based Netflix MAKE you watch something? No, ONLY games get to force people to play...
Clearly games are much more evil than other forms of entertainment.
I've read somewhere they can even go into your wallet and make you spend money in the cash shop....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm not sure how you managed to read that into my post.
Shockingly, by reading what you wrote....
I didn't address the topic of adding grind to a paid subscription model. Given that the OP is about FTP I'd have to wonder why that topic would even come up.
You may have read it, but you also read into it.
If you could respond to what is actually written, or perhaps ask for clarification if something is confusing you, that would be great.
But what he said is true. Subscription games often put in "time sinks" to slow players down, so they'd be playing and paying longer. Items that had a slim chance of dropping, seemingly long spawn timers, hell levels that seemed to take forever to get through. Subscriptions are not a perfect solution, but much more preferable to cash shops for me.
The argument I literally laugh out loud at is, "Subs make me feel like I have to log in." If you don't even want to play a sub game, cancel your sub and move on. How often do you use your subscription based phone? How about your subscription based cable/satellite TV? How often does subscription based Netflix MAKE you watch something? No, ONLY games get to force people to play...
Clearly games are much more evil than other forms of entertainment.
I've read somewhere they can even go into your wallet and make you spend money in the cash shop....
Weird.
Adults should - key word should - be able to see through persuasive (or should that be deceptive marketing). The same can be said about gambling and slot machines but a whole host of places seem to disagree.
When it comes to children in particular though there is clearly enough evidence to persuade lawmakers in multiple countries that some control is needed.
So you are entirely correct they clearly can go into your wallet, presumably by messing with your head.
There I was when the first F2P hit the western market and Im going how stupid does someone have to be to think F2P games are going to be good in the long term. And there is the wave of short sighted penniless gamers arguing with me about how great it was. And some writer on this very site, don't remember who he was, telling everyone F2P games were the future of gaming and the western market was behind the times. everyone wins he says.
Then later when they realized they do have to spend some money to have any chance at having a normal playing experience, the argument was, but I only spend money when I need it, Im in control. Okay buddy whatever you say.
Then the same group realizes they are spending WAY more then they ever would have on a sub game that gave you everything, and they still don't have anything close to everything on the "one" character they can afford to spend money on.
And now guess what, I don't hear them defending F2P games anymore.
I hate to say it.. but when I was playing GW2, I used to get a bit of a joy hearing people cry about the price of things in the cash shop, when, spending a pitiful $20 a paycheck I never had an issue buying what I wanted.
In the endm, if I am having fun playing a game, I want to spend money on it to support it, and a cash shop is a neat way for me to do just that, without feeling obligated to pay a sub. If one month, I am off contract, and need to live on the savings, ok.. I don't spend.. next month, I am back on contract, and I might splurge and spend a c-note, in many ways I am in complete control.
If I don't like the game, for whatever reasons, I don't spend money on it.. I also stop playing it and try to find a game I will enjoy.. and F2P, well.. allows me to play a game for a bit and make that decision, sometimes, I might make an account, make a character, log in .. and get distracted by something else.. like a Walking Dead marathon leading up to Spoiler, which kills ALL my free time, and not go back to the game for a month, so a "free trial" does not work for someone like me.
In the end.. whoever said F2P was the future of games.. they were in fact right.
The thing with me, is that now, an initial buy price for me is a hindrance for me to even play a game.
If Elite Dangerous was F2P, there is a good chance that i would have tried it. Perhaps, i would have gotten addicted to it and then spent money.
So you can afford a $1000 gaming rig (on the low end), a $50 per month internet connection, and any gaming peripherals (gaming joystick, etc) but the deal breaker, after blowing upwards of $2000.00 (easy to do with gaming rigs) is the price of the game?
If you like the FTP model that's fine - you need no justification past that point.
Some of the cost analysis from the FTP crowd is a bit sketchy, IMHO.
Well gaming rigs and accessories are never free. So it is a sunk cost. What is not a sunk cost are the games.
Hence, everything after gaming rigs is a new species. Not only is it a new species, playing games has a time component too.
Hence, i can only play a few games with my limited time and after the sunk cost that is a gaming rig, i choose wisely what i play and thus what i even try.
Therefore, non-ftp is a factor for me including all the other issues that decide what i choose to play. The overall money i spent on a rig is irrelevant.
Even if i made 500k a year, id still be wary of buying games because i hate to buy stuff and not use it.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
The thing about this is I recall the Facebook games of yore. Talk about milking money. You do 2 to 3 activities then get to wait while your "activity bar" fills back up, usually a matter of days. OR, go spend a buck or two and get an insta-fill. Since those activities may take from 5 to 10 minutes, you get to buy those refills 6 times an hour, all at a buck or two a piece. Because of this experience, ALL cash shops feel the same to me.
Face it, companies want your money. They will do anything and everything to get it. I prefer subs because that puts a cap on what they get, making them work harder to retain their players. Unfortunately, that's a win for the consumer and we all know businesses dislike that scenario
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The thing about this is I recall the Facebook games of yore. Talk about milking money. You do 2 to 3 activities then get to wait while your "activity bar" fills back up, usually a matter of days. OR, go spend a buck or two and get an insta-fill. Since those activities may take from 5 to 10 minutes, you get to buy those refills 6 times an hour, all at a buck or two a piece. Because of this experience, ALL cash shops feel the same to me.
Face it, companies want your money. They will do anything and everything to get it. I prefer subs because that puts a cap on what they get, making them work harder to retain their players. Unfortunately, that's a win for the consumer and we all know businesses dislike that scenario
These Companies have gone from providing a pleasurable experience for a fair price into straight up exploitation.
Yes, I mean you Todd!
I'm sick of it, and i don't see an end to it any time soon. At this point I can't wait for TESVI.......well, yeah, I can actually.
The thing about this is I recall the Facebook games of yore. Talk about milking money. You do 2 to 3 activities then get to wait while your "activity bar" fills back up, usually a matter of days. OR, go spend a buck or two and get an insta-fill. Since those activities may take from 5 to 10 minutes, you get to buy those refills 6 times an hour, all at a buck or two a piece. Because of this experience, ALL cash shops feel the same to me.
Face it, companies want your money. They will do anything and everything to get it. I prefer subs because that puts a cap on what they get, making them work harder to retain their players. Unfortunately, that's a win for the consumer and we all know businesses dislike that scenario
The problem here, is that is was not a win for anyone.
To use your facebook example, F2P games and Sub games use the same mechanics, they will put in artificial time sinks designed to slow you down, so you can't do too much too soon and complete the game too quickly. Both Systems apply this method.
So, regardless if you are paying a sub or using an item mall, you still end up with a system where you do some activities and then you need to wait for your activity bar to fill back up, because both systems need to slow down how fast you can complete content to make you spend the most amount of time doing.
The difference between a F2P game and a Sub, is the F2P game, the time sinks are designed to get you to spend money to bypass them, the Sub game the time sinks are designed to directly slow down your progress to keep you paying the sub.
Explain to me how that is a win for anyone?
In reality, The players lose in both cases due to artificial time sinks needing to be put in both systems.
Just with the Sub, the company loses because the mechanic pisses people off and they quit.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The thing about this is I recall the Facebook games of yore. Talk about milking money. You do 2 to 3 activities then get to wait while your "activity bar" fills back up, usually a matter of days. OR, go spend a buck or two and get an insta-fill. Since those activities may take from 5 to 10 minutes, you get to buy those refills 6 times an hour, all at a buck or two a piece. Because of this experience, ALL cash shops feel the same to me.
Face it, companies want your money. They will do anything and everything to get it. I prefer subs because that puts a cap on what they get, making them work harder to retain their players. Unfortunately, that's a win for the consumer and we all know businesses dislike that scenario
The problem here, is that is was not a win for anyone.
To use your facebook example, F2P games and Sub games use the same mechanics, they will put in artificial time sinks designed to slow you down, so you can't do too much too soon and complete the game too quickly. Both Systems apply this method.
So, regardless if you are paying a sub or using an item mall, you still end up with a system where you do some activities and then you need to wait for your activity bar to fill back up, because both systems need to slow down how fast you can complete content to make you spend the most amount of time doing.
The difference between a F2P game and a Sub, is the F2P game, the time sinks are designed to get you to spend money to bypass them, the Sub game the time sinks are designed to directly slow down your progress to keep you paying the sub.
Explain to me how that is a win for anyone?
In reality, The players lose in both cases due to artificial time sinks needing to be put in both systems.
Just with the Sub, the company loses because the mechanic pisses people off and they quit.
You actually lose a lot more than just the time sinks implemented differently in the two cases. Take for example two successful eastern mmorpgs, BDO and FFXIV. One requires you to spend a subscription to play. The other requires you to pay to:
Have a functional UI,
Get play utility like collecting loot
Inventory spaces
A way to not look like a hobo
Pay your way to end game upgrades
Repay everything for each alt you make all over again
and more (a bit in a hurry but I'm sure you can write more differences)
A subscription is always the bargain deal. F2P cash shop is all about milking as much as possible before you lose interest and move to the next F2P cash shop.
You actually lose a lot more than just the time sinks implemented differently in the two cases. Take for example two successful eastern mmorpgs, BDO and FFXIV. One requires you to spend a subscription to play. The other requires you to pay to:
Have a functional UI,
Get play utility like collecting loot
Inventory spaces
A way to not look like a hobo
Pay your way to end game upgrades
Repay everything for each alt you make all over again
and more (a bit in a hurry but I'm sure you can write more differences)
A subscription is always the bargain deal. F2P cash shop is all about milking as much as possible before you lose interest and move to the next F2P cash shop.
but it depends on the player...I am playing BDO right now...i haven't spent any money on it yet, and I may or may not, but it is purely my call....FFXIV you ahve no choice... the root of the argument for many of us is choice.
You actually lose a lot more than just the time sinks implemented differently in the two cases. Take for example two successful eastern mmorpgs, BDO and FFXIV. One requires you to spend a subscription to play. The other requires you to pay to:
Have a functional UI,
Get play utility like collecting loot
Inventory spaces
A way to not look like a hobo
Pay your way to end game upgrades
Repay everything for each alt you make all over again
and more (a bit in a hurry but I'm sure you can write more differences)
A subscription is always the bargain deal. F2P cash shop is all about milking as much as possible before you lose interest and move to the next F2P cash shop.
but it depends on the player...I am playing BDO right now...i haven't spent any money on it yet, and I may or may not, but it is purely my call....FFXIV you ahve no choice... the root of the argument for many of us is choice.
The choice to play a lesser version of the game... that's some choice.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
gervaise1 said: Adults should - key word should - be able to see through persuasive (or should that be deceptive marketing). The same can be said about gambling and slot machines but a whole host of places seem to disagree.
When it comes to children in particular though there is clearly enough evidence to persuade lawmakers in multiple countries that some control is needed.
So you are entirely correct they clearly can go into your wallet, presumably by messing with your head.
Ungood Said: It had also been proven that F2P games had a much higher return rate than sub games.
--------------------------------------------
I don't doubt this; however, I do have a question about it.
Do we have a triple AAA title out there that is FTP and delivers the quality of content of the subscription triple AAA titles of the past?
While I'm sure the FTP is generating a ton of money, and may in fact be keeping the doors open on failing sub-based titles - is the huge cash influx resulting in new, high quality content?
It seems to me that a subscription implies 'more content coming soon'. Good story telling and all that sort of thing. FTP seems to be more about 'more shop items coming soon' - do FTP games (with cash shop, no sub) get the high quality content of the past?
I ask this because IMHO, I think there is room out there for a $25.00 per month sub provided it is high quality with frequent updates - an absolutely no cash shop. I think people are willing to pay for a high end experience.
I am not exactly sure how to gauge this question, and to the best of what I could figure out, neither does any of the Data collection agencies that I frequent.
Keep in mind, this is a hard question, as "AAA titles of the past" typically only provided new content in the form of expansions, which were a box fee and a sub fee to access, and currently a lot of F2P MMO's also use expansions for direct content updates.
There are outliers, but as far as I can tell, not enough to really get a hard metric on this kind of question.
I appreciate this response. I'm actually enjoying the cash shop on Elite Dangerous, which surprises me a little bit. It isn't pay-to-win though.
I *think* if my current buying holds pace I'd probably be about in the same territory as a $15 per month sub. Maybe a little bit more.
ED still not P2W? That's good considering how long it has been out, I usually give a cash shop that starts as non-P2W a year before it goes P2W.
AIBQuirky hits the nail on the head about that old "Subs mean I have to log on" nonsense, does anyone say that about Netflix or Sky? But somehow in subscription games it is an issue?
You actually lose a lot more than just the time sinks implemented differently in the two cases. Take for example two successful eastern mmorpgs, BDO and FFXIV. One requires you to spend a subscription to play. The other requires you to pay to:
Have a functional UI,
Get play utility like collecting loot
Inventory spaces
A way to not look like a hobo
Pay your way to end game upgrades
Repay everything for each alt you make all over again
and more (a bit in a hurry but I'm sure you can write more differences)
A subscription is always the bargain deal. F2P cash shop is all about milking as much as possible before you lose interest and move to the next F2P cash shop.
Paying not to look like a hobo in BDO, it is like a shaming initiation by Pearl Abyss to force you to buy an outfit. It just goes to prove they will always think of new ideas to get you to part with cash. And on my other theme here of 'its not just whales that pay' you can see how some of the elements above are 'encouraging' all players to pay.
i stopped coming here and posting almost entirely...but yes i remember the cash shop debates of 2009.
Good to see you again! The debates haven't changed much, but the games' monetization have, moving to about 90% F2P and 99% with cash shops (I'm sure there's one MMO without a cash shop out there...)
PS: How is your game coming along? Sorry, but I haven't been following it.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Truthfully, as much as I detest paying a sub for a game, if I was single without kids I would resub to EQ1 and raid 24/7 just like I used to without consideration.
The thing about this is I recall the Facebook games of yore. Talk about milking money. You do 2 to 3 activities then get to wait while your "activity bar" fills back up, usually a matter of days. OR, go spend a buck or two and get an insta-fill. Since those activities may take from 5 to 10 minutes, you get to buy those refills 6 times an hour, all at a buck or two a piece. Because of this experience, ALL cash shops feel the same to me.
Face it, companies want your money. They will do anything and everything to get it. I prefer subs because that puts a cap on what they get, making them work harder to retain their players. Unfortunately, that's a win for the consumer and we all know businesses dislike that scenario
The problem here, is that is was not a win for anyone.
To use your facebook example, F2P games and Sub games use the same mechanics, they will put in artificial time sinks designed to slow you down, so you can't do too much too soon and complete the game too quickly. Both Systems apply this method.
So, regardless if you are paying a sub or using an item mall, you still end up with a system where you do some activities and then you need to wait for your activity bar to fill back up, because both systems need to slow down how fast you can complete content to make you spend the most amount of time doing.
The difference between a F2P game and a Sub, is the F2P game, the time sinks are designed to get you to spend money to bypass them, the Sub game the time sinks are designed to directly slow down your progress to keep you paying the sub.
Explain to me how that is a win for anyone?
In reality, The players lose in both cases due to artificial time sinks needing to be put in both systems.
Just with the Sub, the company loses because the mechanic pisses people off and they quit.
I would say that, faced with the option of: "I need to play more of the gameplay I enjoy to get that item" is much better than "I need to wait 3 days to continue the gameplay I enjoy".
Activity bars that halt the gamer's progress completely, thereby eliminating any benefit to continue playing until the timer has expired, are much worse.
Take that formula, mix it into a sub-based game, and it's the absolute worst. See WoW's time-gating via daily/weekly quests for an example. It's one of the main criticisms of BfA and, indeed, of Legion.
But what he said is true. Subscription games often put in "time sinks" to slow players down, so they'd be playing and paying longer. Items that had a slim chance of dropping, seemingly long spawn timers, hell levels that seemed to take forever to get through. Subscriptions are not a perfect solution, but much more preferable to cash shops for me.
The argument I literally laugh out loud at is, "Subs make me feel like I have to log in." If you don't even want to play a sub game, cancel your sub and move on. How often do you use your subscription based phone? How about your subscription based cable/satellite TV? How often does subscription based Netflix MAKE you watch something? No, ONLY games get to force people to play...
So you will quit Netflix/cable TV if you do not like one show?
Funny story, I'm considering cancelling my monthly sub to cable TV as most of my viewing these days is on Netflix/Prime.
Just need to figure out what the best source for Network programming and news might be.
I'm basically doing so because there are cheaper yet acceptable alternatives these days which is similar to what went down in the MMO space.
My son has already gone the no cable TV route at his home, watches everything over the internet.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Cash shop vs sub has played out in both F2P and P2P games for a completely different reason. A cash shop (and eventually loot boxes) are about increasing the average revenue per user vs the fixed value from a sub. As games slowly became more about the recurring revenue rather than the box/expansion sales cash shops won out due to the higher average.
The way to get P2P sub based games is to find a lower marketting cost for the sale of boxes/expansions. With that combination, you will see these types of launches and sales.
I like subs but the game can't be shallow themepark. But again I don't believe there is any reason there won't be bait out there for whales in a cashshop for $59.99 game and $20.00 month game.
Pay-to-play and or subscription games they already have my money at least for the first monthmonth us before I've tried the game or at least tried significant portions of the game.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The argument I literally laugh out loud at is, "Subs make me feel like I have to log in." If you don't even want to play a sub game, cancel your sub and move on. How often do you use your subscription based phone? How about your subscription based cable/satellite TV? How often does subscription based Netflix MAKE you watch something? No, ONLY games get to force people to play...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
But then they would turn around and defend the F2P model because it wasn't really P2W if they could put in the time to grind out the gear they wanted.
WTF????
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I've read somewhere they can even go into your wallet and make you spend money in the cash shop....
Weird.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
When it comes to children in particular though there is clearly enough evidence to persuade lawmakers in multiple countries that some control is needed.
So you are entirely correct they clearly can go into your wallet, presumably by messing with your head.
Hence, everything after gaming rigs is a new species. Not only is it a new species, playing games has a time component too.
Hence, i can only play a few games with my limited time and after the sunk cost that is a gaming rig, i choose wisely what i play and thus what i even try.
Therefore, non-ftp is a factor for me including all the other issues that decide what i choose to play. The overall money i spent on a rig is irrelevant.
Even if i made 500k a year, id still be wary of buying games because i hate to buy stuff and not use it.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Face it, companies want your money. They will do anything and everything to get it. I prefer subs because that puts a cap on what they get, making them work harder to retain their players. Unfortunately, that's a win for the consumer and we all know businesses dislike that scenario
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Yes, I mean you Todd!
I'm sick of it, and i don't see an end to it any time soon. At this point I can't wait for TESVI.......well, yeah, I can actually.
To use your facebook example, F2P games and Sub games use the same mechanics, they will put in artificial time sinks designed to slow you down, so you can't do too much too soon and complete the game too quickly. Both Systems apply this method.
So, regardless if you are paying a sub or using an item mall, you still end up with a system where you do some activities and then you need to wait for your activity bar to fill back up, because both systems need to slow down how fast you can complete content to make you spend the most amount of time doing.
The difference between a F2P game and a Sub, is the F2P game, the time sinks are designed to get you to spend money to bypass them, the Sub game the time sinks are designed to directly slow down your progress to keep you paying the sub.
Explain to me how that is a win for anyone?
In reality, The players lose in both cases due to artificial time sinks needing to be put in both systems.
Just with the Sub, the company loses because the mechanic pisses people off and they quit.
$15 vs ???
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
- Have a functional UI,
- Get play utility like collecting loot
- Inventory spaces
- A way to not look like a hobo
- Pay your way to end game upgrades
- Repay everything for each alt you make all over again
- and more (a bit in a hurry but I'm sure you can write more differences)
A subscription is always the bargain deal. F2P cash shop is all about milking as much as possible before you lose interest and move to the next F2P cash shop.“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
eh...you can do better, I think...
AIBQuirky hits the nail on the head about that old "Subs mean I have to log on" nonsense, does anyone say that about Netflix or Sky? But somehow in subscription games it is an issue?
PS: How is your game coming along? Sorry, but I haven't been following it.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Activity bars that halt the gamer's progress completely, thereby eliminating any benefit to continue playing until the timer has expired, are much worse.
Take that formula, mix it into a sub-based game, and it's the absolute worst. See WoW's time-gating via daily/weekly quests for an example. It's one of the main criticisms of BfA and, indeed, of Legion.
Just need to figure out what the best source for Network programming and news might be.
I'm basically doing so because there are cheaper yet acceptable alternatives these days which is similar to what went down in the MMO space.
My son has already gone the no cable TV route at his home, watches everything over the internet.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon