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What Ever Happened To The F2P Cash Shop?

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  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,432
    I bought some tabs and cosmetics on PoE because their shop did not invade my gameplay in any way (at least I didn't felt it) while I had so much time having fun in the game. 

    And that's pretty much it. Not a single other F2P got me thinking "I'll give you guys some money". Not because they do not exists, but because PoE was the only one really.

    I would mentioning that Warframe also deserves apreciation. 
    AlBQuirky
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    edited April 15
    Kyleran said:
    When one receives the "Seal of Quality" (the LOL) they know their response is right on target.

    :D
    Yup, a target of quality nonsense post...
    KylerananemoWargfoot
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,432
    Gdemami said:
    Kyleran said:
    When one receives the "Seal of Quality" (the LOL) they know their response is right on target.

    :D
    Yup, a seal of Quality Nonsense...
    We love you too, pal. We love you too.
    ScotWargfoot
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,896
    Gdemami said:
    Kyleran said:
    there was no monetization "hill" gamers weren't willing to climb

    ...apparently there is a hill players weren't willing to climb - subscriptions.

    Which is completely laugh out loud-able since World of Warcraft has had over 100 million players.
    GdemamiScot

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,432
    Nilden said:
    Gdemami said:
    Kyleran said:
    there was no monetization "hill" gamers weren't willing to climb

    ...apparently there is a hill players weren't willing to climb - subscriptions.

    Which is completely laugh out loud-able since World of Warcraft has had over 100 million players.
    Where did you take that number from? Wow's peak was near 12m.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • BladeburaibaBladeburaiba Member UncommonPosts: 80
    Interesting poll, but...it really doesn't say anything we didn't already know.  When people used to say whales carried a game, it doesn't mean whales were the only ones spending.  It meant that the average player was maybe spending 30 dollars a month, but whales were spending 1,000 to 60,000 a month (this is my definition based on leaks from some games)

    So while developers loved anybody spending, one whale being worth 100s, or even 1000s of average customers gets their attention...

    I'm curious if the new ultra successful F2P games carry or buck that trend.  Is the billion dollars that  Fortnite made contributed more by the average player, or the whales?
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,205
    Scot said:
    I have seen a few threads recently, talking about the huge amounts being spent and the play to win aspect of MMOs. The baulk of cash shop games are like this, but I am sure our old timers can remember what used to be said about F2P games, indeed we still get this today:

    "F2P means you play for free, not like subscription!"

    "With subscription you are paying even when you don't go online!"

    "Subscription is unfair anyway as players who put more time in get all the rewards!"

    "It is only a tiny percentage of whales who pay the vast majority pay nothing!"

    ...and here we are today, I had better laugh or I would cry. :)

    Now we have cash shops where you pay every which way; from the pre-order/kickstarter through AAA released-to-soon/early access and ending in the gold club/season pass 'blah blah' lets have some more money. And lets face it, this is not new, I am just pointing out how much worse this situation is than five years ago. 'F2P' MMOs are a never ending stream of innovative ideas to give you reasons to buy more and more...and more.

    Free to Play games are so venal they make a mockery of the name, sure if you want to grind your life away you can accomplish something but never as much as someone paying even a modest amount. Compared to subscriptions they create an unfair playing field, distort gameplay and if you are the sort of person who pays more than £10 a month in a F2P game you are certainly paying more.

    Also we are told the proportion who pay is tiny, so you can under stand my puzzlement that we get so many comments about bad cash shops in F2P games and what people have paid. I have even done so myself a couple of times, anyone can get suckered in. So I recon one or maybe a few payments are far more common than players think, hence the poll. Lets see how many minnows are swimming with the whales.

    Fortnite makes 3 billions per year, LoL about a billion. So F2P works, and both games are not P2W. Obviously it is possible, if you have a good game to sell, people will pay. I think the problem of the MMORPGs is the quality of gameplay - if the best they could offer is grind for grind, well they cannot be F2P. It is ridiculous, but the players may pay for crap, but they will not play crap for free.
    GdemamiVermillion_Raventhal
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    edited April 15
    Nyctelios said:
    Where did you take that number from? Wow's peak was near 12m.
    ...that is a cumulative number of a span over merely a decade of WOW's existence.

    Utterly useless number...
    Nyctelios
  • GruugGruug Member RarePosts: 1,708
    Nyctelios said:
    I bought some tabs and cosmetics on PoE because their shop did not invade my gameplay in any way (at least I didn't felt it) while I had so much time having fun in the game. 

    And that's pretty much it. Not a single other F2P got me thinking "I'll give you guys some money". Not because they do not exists, but because PoE was the only one really.

    I would mentioning that Warframe also deserves apreciation. 
    You do not purchase something from someone just because you "appreciate" them. Gaming companies are not charities. You purchase something from someone because they sell a good and reliable product that you need (or perhaps want). Treating any purchased items as a charitable gift is the wrong sort of thinking. Besides, cash shops are not meant to be charitable. They are meant to take your money.

    GdemamiKylerananemoMendel

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,432
    Gruug said:
    Nyctelios said:
    I bought some tabs and cosmetics on PoE because their shop did not invade my gameplay in any way (at least I didn't felt it) while I had so much time having fun in the game. 

    And that's pretty much it. Not a single other F2P got me thinking "I'll give you guys some money". Not because they do not exists, but because PoE was the only one really.

    I would mentioning that Warframe also deserves apreciation. 
    You do not purchase something from someone just because you "appreciate" them. Gaming companies are not charities. You purchase something from someone because they sell a good and reliable product that you need (or perhaps want). Treating any purchased items as a charitable gift is the wrong sort of thinking. Besides, cash shops are not meant to be charitable. They are meant to take your money.

    I don't? So what did I just did? I bought a skin for a character that I don't play anymore, just to insert money on it in exchange for the experience they provided me for free for so much time.

    But, sorry, I think you know more than me on what I did. So please go on. What sould I do today?
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,714
    I too remember when F2P came on the scene, and we all thought is was a gimmick. Just some passing fad.

    Took our eyes off the ball on that one. 
    AlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,205
    edited April 15
    Gruug said:
    Nyctelios said:
    I bought some tabs and cosmetics on PoE because their shop did not invade my gameplay in any way (at least I didn't felt it) while I had so much time having fun in the game. 

    And that's pretty much it. Not a single other F2P got me thinking "I'll give you guys some money". Not because they do not exists, but because PoE was the only one really.

    I would mentioning that Warframe also deserves apreciation. 
    You do not purchase something from someone just because you "appreciate" them. Gaming companies are not charities. You purchase something from someone because they sell a good and reliable product that you need (or perhaps want). Treating any purchased items as a charitable gift is the wrong sort of thinking. Besides, cash shops are not meant to be charitable. They are meant to take your money.

    So you purchase only good reliable products you need? Well that is possible if you are too rich, too poor, or you live in XIX century before the rise of the consumer society.

    Take L2 private servers as example - there are thousands of them with millions of players combined and most use exactly charity. 
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,896
    Nyctelios said:
    Nilden said:
    Gdemami said:
    Kyleran said:
    there was no monetization "hill" gamers weren't willing to climb

    ...apparently there is a hill players weren't willing to climb - subscriptions.

    Which is completely laugh out loud-able since World of Warcraft has had over 100 million players.
    Where did you take that number from? Wow's peak was near 12m.
    https://www.polygon.com/2014/1/28/5354856/world-of-warcraft-100m-accounts-lifetime

    Scot

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • ErevusErevus Member UncommonPosts: 96
    Gamers nowadays are like a herd, it just takes a bunch of them to panic and the whole community goes berserk. Keep calm, keep your money and change the future, it's really not that hard.
    Scot

    "If men are stronger than women, then why do male characters
     need full plate armor, while women only need a chainmail bikini"


  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,483
    edited April 15
    Gdemami said:
    Nyctelios said:
    Where did you take that number from? Wow's peak was near 12m.
    ...that is a cumulative number of a span over merely a decade of WOW's existence.

    Utterly useless number...
    So true. Its almost as useless as the "hours played this expansion" that they were trying to throw around in Legion. Pointless time gates and grinds (just to reach a time gate) will inflate that number blizz....I mean they were so desperate in bfa that they cut the rep awarded via world quests in half from legion to bfa, but of course the blizzard shills come out of the wood work "This is a different expansion so things will be different obviously!" And dont even get me started on these laughable emissary rewards compared to Legion....
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,896
    All online games, whether F2P, sub only or both, have design elements that have nothing to do with gaming quality. Their raison d'etre is to keep you playing and paying as long as possible.

    The only real difference between them is how they go about trying to manipulate you into paying more. Getting you to grind toward some desirable goal is the common device they all use. They just monetize it differently by either keeping you motivated to hang around (sub) or selling you shortcuts.

    I do prefer sub only online games - yeah I know, they're a dying breed - because of their spending cap (the sub) that serves to keep the competitive playing field (whatever that competition means to you be it PvP, looking the best or whatever) relatively even and you have to actually play the game to achieve whatever your goal is.

    Cash shop convenience undermines the game play and that has always been and continues to be my objection to it. It tilts the playing field in favor of wallet warriors by providing them with shortcuts they can purchase. This also serves to IMO, cheapen the achievement.

    "Well what about the sub games tilting the playing field in favor of no lifers?" So goes the counterargument. Well I personally see nothing wrong with people having the dedication and know how to play the game more and better than me even if they do it to obsessive levels. It's totally predictable within the the definition of "game" that some will.

    Take Chess Grand Masters for example. They tend to be a quirky and obsessive bunch. But weird as those chess no-lifers may seem to me, I still have something in common with them in that I play the same game of chess on the same board so I have an appreciation for what they accomplish. I play chess too. I just don't do it 24/7 like they do.

    But if you applied the same video game studio mentality to chess you'd end up with something ridiculous like buying extra queens or rezzing pawns... 

    That's what's wrong with F2P cash shops whether outrageously or just mildly P2W. They are a fucking joke that undermines the games just to make a buck.

    Thank god we still have some single player offline games.
    GdemamiAlBQuirkyScot
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,896
    Gdemami said:
    Nyctelios said:
    Where did you take that number from? Wow's peak was near 12m.
    ...that is a cumulative number of a span over merely a decade of WOW's existence.

    Utterly useless number...
    Right because 100 million people willing to pay subscriptions doesn't just debunk your point about subscriptions it annihilates it.
    Gdemami

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,896
    I mean you can go on about how players are not willing to climb the subscription hill in your fantasy world. In reallity the entire MMORPG genre maintained itself on subscriptions and box sales from Ultima Online and the decade following it's release. Where not only did the MMORPG genre survive but thrived with games like WoW. Completely on subscriptions and box sales and expansions.

    What's utterly useless here is your retarded fantasy that players were not willing to climb that subscription hill, when we have mountains of evidence otherwise.
    KyleranGdemamiAlBQuirkyScot

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Amathe said:
    I too remember when F2P came on the scene, and we all thought is was a gimmick. Just some passing fad.

    Took our eyes off the ball on that one. 
    I dunno if we ALL thought it was a gimmick.. some of us must have loved it for it to stay around.
    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,205
    Nilden said:
    I mean you can go on about how players are not willing to climb the subscription hill in your fantasy world. In reallity the entire MMORPG genre maintained itself on subscriptions and box sales from Ultima Online and the decade following it's release. Where not only did the MMORPG genre survive but thrived with games like WoW. Completely on subscriptions and box sales and expansions.

    What's utterly useless here is your retarded fantasy that players were not willing to climb that subscription hill, when we have mountains of evidence otherwise.
    And before that the video games did not even exist. In 80s the salary of a Wall Street broker was lower than that of a common worker in the Ford manufacture. P2P is completely outdated now. And we should not forget how it started. The players actually payed per hour, not per month. That was much more greedy than anything now. Also WoW never been the most popular and played MMO. It was the most profitable. And it was the game that first made the cash shop really popular. 
    Kyleran
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,278
    edited April 15
    Whatever happened to Fay Wray?
    That delicate satin draped frame
    As it clung to her thigh, how I started to cry
    'Cause I wanted to be dressed just the same
    Give yourself over to absolute purchase
    Swim the warm waters of cash shop offers
    Cash shop purchases beyond any measure
    Pixel daydreams to treasure forever
    Can't you just see it. Whoa ho ho!
    Don't dream it, just buy it
    Don't dream it, just buy it


    (with apologies to Richard O'Brien, Rocky Horror Picture Shop)
    AlBQuirkyTorvalScot
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,931
    ikcin said:
    Scot said:
    I have seen a few threads recently, talking about the huge amounts being spent and the play to win aspect of MMOs. The baulk of cash shop games are like this, but I am sure our old timers can remember what used to be said about F2P games, indeed we still get this today:

    "F2P means you play for free, not like subscription!"

    "With subscription you are paying even when you don't go online!"

    "Subscription is unfair anyway as players who put more time in get all the rewards!"

    "It is only a tiny percentage of whales who pay the vast majority pay nothing!"

    ...and here we are today, I had better laugh or I would cry. :)

    Now we have cash shops where you pay every which way; from the pre-order/kickstarter through AAA released-to-soon/early access and ending in the gold club/season pass 'blah blah' lets have some more money. And lets face it, this is not new, I am just pointing out how much worse this situation is than five years ago. 'F2P' MMOs are a never ending stream of innovative ideas to give you reasons to buy more and more...and more.

    Free to Play games are so venal they make a mockery of the name, sure if you want to grind your life away you can accomplish something but never as much as someone paying even a modest amount. Compared to subscriptions they create an unfair playing field, distort gameplay and if you are the sort of person who pays more than £10 a month in a F2P game you are certainly paying more.

    Also we are told the proportion who pay is tiny, so you can under stand my puzzlement that we get so many comments about bad cash shops in F2P games and what people have paid. I have even done so myself a couple of times, anyone can get suckered in. So I recon one or maybe a few payments are far more common than players think, hence the poll. Lets see how many minnows are swimming with the whales.

    Fortnite makes 3 billions per year, LoL about a billion. So F2P works, and both games are not P2W. Obviously it is possible, if you have a good game to sell, people will pay. I think the problem of the MMORPGs is the quality of gameplay - if the best they could offer is grind for grind, well they cannot be F2P. It is ridiculous, but the players may pay for crap, but they will not play crap for free.
    Most people here wouldn't see it like that because they are the audience.  Trying to get the average gamer to play MMORPG used to be like pulling teeth. That's one reason the genre never grew as it could have been. 

    WoW was a huge step in playability but the money monster locked us in and never really expanded much beyond that.  

    ikcin
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,408
    Erevus said:
    Gamers nowadays are like a herd, it just takes a bunch of them to panic and the whole community goes berserk. Keep calm, keep your money and change the future, it's really not that hard.
    That's the trouble. That "herd" doesn't care that I neither spend nor play the games. Nor do the publishers as they purchase their third yacht. I've been waiting (nothing else I can do) for the genre to get at least similar to what I enjoyed when I first came to it.

    I, and anyone else, have zero control. If players enjoy what MMOs are today, they're in luck. If not, too bad, so sad. Single player games do just fine for me :)
    IselinScot

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • LuidenLuiden Member UncommonPosts: 261
    The reason why F2P became so large is generational.  When Millennials started to become the core gaming audience developers adjusted their models to reflect what Millennials would like.  Think about some of the stereotypical similarities.

    1.  Wanting something for free. F2P
    2.  Why play/work at the game, I should be able to just get things.  B2W/Cash shops
    3.  I should get a trophy just for booting up my computer.  Constant in-game rewards, sometimes just for logging in.

    The point being game companies just catered to their audience and took them to the bank at the same time.  If Gen-X was still the core gamers they would have still taken us to the bank with the subscription model by raising the prices.  We paid 15 dollars a month 15 years ago, that price point would probably be something like 35 dollars a month today if that model was still in place.

    And to be honest, I would pay 35 dollars a month for a great quality MMORPG with no FTP or cash shop in the game.  I wouldn't blink an eye at that.. from my perspective it's a great deal.  

    The real question is, with Gen Z coming into the core gamer audience.. how will the model change to cater to them?
    AlBQuirkyGdemamiScot
  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,061
    edited April 16
    There I was when the first F2P hit the western market and Im going how stupid does someone have to be to think F2P games are going to be good in the long term.  And there is the wave of short sighted penniless gamers arguing with me about how great it was.  And some writer on this very site, don't remember who he was, telling everyone F2P games were the future of gaming and the western market was behind the times. everyone wins he says.  

    Then later when they realized they do have to spend some money to have any chance at having a normal playing experience, the argument was, but I only spend money when I need it, Im in control.  Okay buddy whatever you say.

    Then the same group realizes they are spending WAY more then they ever would have on a sub game that gave you everything, and they still don't have anything close to everything on the "one" character they can afford to spend money on.

    And now guess what, I don't hear them defending F2P games anymore.
    AlBQuirkyGdemamiScot
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