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  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,033
    Kyleran said:
    svann said:
    Many people think anything without twitch combat is boring.  They can go somewhere else.
    Why is it when someone criticizes this mmos combat it instantly means they want DMC5 twitch combat? Personally I want something innovative, meaningful and fun. Either something new or somewhere between super slow and fast twitch combat. Something that transcends having to auto-attack and press 1-9 in a specific order.

     I want a combat system that requires me to actually block, adapt to different attacks, dismember or incapacitate a specific limb. Wearing plate armor? How about using fire element in some way to heat that armor up and injury them by making it feel like they are wearing an oven.  Someone has a shield? Why not be able to focus on their lower legs or parry their shield bashes without relying on an artificial dice roll.  Just come up with something new. It can even be slower, just a lot more dynamic instead static and boring.
    Yep. It is the same whack a mole combat that has been done for 20 years. I am glad that they are making this project for those few fans left to play it but the vast vast majority of older mmorpg players have moved on. A long time ago. 
    This project is niche within a niche genre. 
    Regression therapy.  
    You realize your statement is like saying "golf is the same hit the small white ball" gameplay, or "tennis is the same hit the ball back and forth across the net" or how about, "skiing, silly, just sliding down hills on two pieces of wood", none of which have changed in 100 years, how could anyone want to still do any of them?

    Video games are weird, people only commit a short amount of time to any one of them, even though like any sport it could take a lifetime to master just one....

    Wait Kyle, you can't compare games to sports. OK, my father played contract bridge for over 50 years, was some sort of grand master at it, and some people even played chess, horseshoes, bocci,  and heck, shuffleboard.

    I don't recall Dad complaining about the boring gameplay and asking to have dice throwing or bats added in to make it more interesting. Golf could have probably used some tackling though....

    ;)



    But there have been changes made. Poker has Texas holdem. Football created arena football. Golf has minigolf. Skiing branched out to those tiny short skiis and snowboards. Video games also don't require the law of physics to dictate the possibilities as real life sports.

    You can still keep the foundation of mmos like trinity, open world and thousands of players to interact with while changing the actual gameplay. This has been proven when you have MMOFPS, EVE etc. His point is the typical combat wack a mole system that is ubiquitous in the genre can evolve. As technology improves so does the realm of possibilities. All we need is new ideas and innovative developers
    ceratop001
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    edited March 2019
    It would be nice to see a mmorpg without 'catch-up' mechanics implemented every 3 months for once. If you (generalization) want to 'catch-up' there used to be this little thing called a community that would help if you didn't act like a douche or 3 year old thinking the game was all about you.
    svannKumapon
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085
    Xatsh said:

    I am watching Pantheon because it seems to have alot of those elements I want in a mmo. But I am still not sure if VR can pull of a polished full AAA quality game that will stand up in this day and age.

    I do not think Pantheon will be a massive success in todays standard where that = millions of players. I feel it will either pull 150-200kish subs if it is really really good, maby 50k-100k if it is ok to good, or it will just fail and die in weeks if it is bad. I am putting money in the middle numbers there.
    Errm ... I am quite confused now what exactly would give you the idea that Pantheon will be an AAA game ?!? They certainly dont have the funding necessary for that.

    And an AAA game cannot work if you dont have hundreds of thousands, better millions of players.

    Vanguard was an AAA game. An unfinished one, sure, but it was one. Had it managed two hundred thousands of players, it would have been financed. Of course its state was nowhere near good enough back then to keep that number of players.

    Pantheon however will be an indie game, at least at release. If the optimism of some people is true and we'll get sustained numbers of players in the hundreds of thousands, then yes it can be turned into an AAA game in time.

    I dont suspect that happening though. My hope is for something like 25,000 sustained player accounts. Meaning 25,000 players that still keep playing the game two years after game release. That should allow them to pay back their investors, keep their current employee numbers, keep developing the game and start sooner or later new game projects.

    Of course I wont complain if I'm wrong. Of course one can phantasize about them starting small and then growing, like some MMORPGs managed to do, such as WoW and LotRO and EVE. But yeah, those are pipe dreams.

    Sovrath
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085
    For the record, as apparently I havent said it often enough just yet - there really is absolutely nothing that will convince me to twitch combat. Certainly not the absurd idea it would be "modern".

    I dont give a frak about how bored you are with combat that requires thinking, as EQ has it and especially VG had it. Because twitch based combat bores *ME* to tears, so any game having it simply wont get me as customer, ever.

    I want a game like VG, in which I played a class for years and still came up with new strategies to play it and still tried to improve the macros I used to play it, because these classes are just so deep and complex and well thought out that you have a lot of ways to vary your strategies and its really hard to see whats the optimum. THAT is fun to me.

    Not a game that hilariously tries to make me play as fast as a teenager, while I'm at 40+ and never even liked twitch combat games in the first place, even when I was a teenager, let alone ever tried to be good at such games.

    So if twitch based combat is what you want, could you pretty please just move on to games that already have that anyway, of which there is no lack of choices for sure, instead of trying to pollute one of the few games that still arent already like that ? Pantheons combat so far looks trivialized enough already, though I hope thats mostly because of their limited resources and wont stay this way in the long run.

    Amathe
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member RarePosts: 620
    Albatroes said:
    It would be nice to see a mmorpg without 'catch-up' mechanics implemented every 3 months for once. If you (generalization) want to 'catch-up' there used to be this little thing called a community that would help if you didn't act like a douche or 3 year old thinking the game was all about you.
    This is why so many older MMORPGs are offering classic or progression servers.
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member RarePosts: 620
    edited March 2019

    *skip*

    I dont suspect that happening though. My hope is for something like 25,000 sustained player accounts. Meaning 25,000 players that still keep playing the game two years after game release. That should allow them to pay back their investors, keep their current employee numbers, keep developing the game and start sooner or later new game projects.

    Of course I wont complain if I'm wrong. Of course one can phantasize about them starting small and then growing, like some MMORPGs managed to do, such as WoW and LotRO and EVE. But yeah, those are pipe dreams.

    I think many of us will be disappointed. There're only two roads I see. Either the numbers are more like a couple thousand active subscribers, or they attempt to mimic the success of other mainstream MMORPGs by adding things like instancing, cross-server group finders, dungeon finders, every class soloable, zero death penalty, widely available fast travel (to facilitate faster grouping) and so on. Most of these things are quality of life improvements. And the bigger story is they're friendlier to new players.

    Which is more likely? I've never seen Brad intentionally do a small MMORPG, so I think the latter road is more likely. They'll probably capitulate first on things like dungeon finders and instances and easier soloing, but eventually, as the months and years tick by, it'll resemble every other MMORPG out there--in terms of a focus on convenience and soloing. If they're smart, they'll do it with more obscure changes to the system. However, players aren't dumb, and they'll soon figure it out anyway. A lot of players who were initally supporting it will not support it anymore, but the hope by then is most of the players will be mainstreamers. Unfortunately, the latter road won't make Pantheon a big success. It'll merely allow it to continue on with more than a handful of players.

    Sorry to be a party pooper. I'm like the rest of you. I've discovered being realistic about it causes some people to assume I'm just another imposter from WoW. Not true. Wouold someone who played project 1999 off/on for a couple year --and still gets urges to play again--lie to you? I'm here because I enjoyed classic Everquest and would likely enjoy Vanguard too. I don't like the quality of life features in the newer MMO's. I think interdependence is a good thing because I believe it enchances the community and social aspects. I don't believe widespread soloing (or instances or guild hubs) are compatbile with strong community. In fact, I don't believe they belong in a Massively Multiplayer game. All they do, along with a slew of other features, is make it more like a lobby or moba game. Some players believe that's sufficient for strong community, and that merely the possibility of it being MASSIVELY is the sole requirement, but I'm not one of them.

    Emulated servers like Project 1999 or SWG, and very small MMO's like Wurm Online is all we got and will ever have. The good news is there're many dozens of them, but the bad news is it's hard to find them and you'll never have the benefits of AAA budgeting, or hundres of thousands of players.

    It's not all bad news. I do forecast at least several months of relatively good gaming in Pantheon. But as the first couple years pass, it'll have so steadily eroded its core features it'll no longer acceptably resemble the game you wanted to play. And keep in mind much of this erosion will happen in beta. So the staunchest loyalists will leave long before it's live.

    Maybe someday there'll be an emulator for Pantheon. Chances are, there'll be a Vanguard emulator available when it launches. Ironically, the bulk of the loyalist faction will probably be playing there. Once again, it's shown the emulator community has more love and truthfulness than commercial business will ever have in its wildest dreams.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • TokkenTokken Member EpicPosts: 3,547
    "Ashes of Creation..... Gimmick"

    One person's idea of GIMMICK, is another person's idea of INNOVATION. 


    Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004!  Make PvE GREAT Again!

  • MargaretavilleMargaretaville Member UncommonPosts: 72
    edited April 2019
    Well, we'll know as soon as the advertising machine cranks up.

    If they hit this site with a marketing blitz featuring skimpily clad women with oversized swords and  boobs, we'll know exactly what kind of a game this will be...…...

  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,142
    Kyleran said:

    Wait Kyle, you can't compare games to sports. OK, my father played contract bridge for over 50 years, was some sort of grand master at it, and some people even played chess, horseshoes, bocci,  and heck, shuffleboard.

    I don't recall Dad complaining about the boring gameplay and asking to have dice throwing or bats added in to make it more interesting. Golf could have probably used some tackling though....

    ;)
    If I would describe contract bridge I would call it a Coop 2v2 PvP randomized puzzle game where you have to make deductions based on limited information and choose options based on probability and after every hand your performance gets rated. If it wasn't for the fact that you played against people the game would never have stayed popular.

    Golf on the other hand is a walking simulator...
    Mendel
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    Shaigh said:
    Kyleran said:

    Wait Kyle, you can't compare games to sports. OK, my father played contract bridge for over 50 years, was some sort of grand master at it, and some people even played chess, horseshoes, bocci,  and heck, shuffleboard.

    I don't recall Dad complaining about the boring gameplay and asking to have dice throwing or bats added in to make it more interesting. Golf could have probably used some tackling though....

    ;)
    If I would describe contract bridge I would call it a Coop 2v2 PvP randomized puzzle game where you have to make deductions based on limited information and choose options based on probability and after every hand your performance gets rated. If it wasn't for the fact that you played against people the game would never have stayed popular.

    Golf on the other hand is a walking simulator...
    Love the Bridge description.  Right on, sir and/or madam!



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

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