Some Crafters Should Be Better Than Others

Amathe · March 2019

In my opinion a player crafter ought to be able to cultivate some type of skill, to where they become able to make items that are qualitatively better than the average version of that item. That way crafters can earn a reputation in the community for their fine wares. In the few games I have played where this is true, I remember seeking out those crafters to try and buy from them.

What do you think?

alkarionlog · March 2019

Amathe said:

In my opinion a player crafter ought to be able to cultivate some type of skill, to where they become able to make items that are qualitatively better than the average version of that item. That way crafters can earn a reputation in the community for their fine wares. In the few games I have played where this is true, I remember seeking out those crafters to try and buy from them.

What do you think?

you still have the problem of the cap, eventually everyone would get on that lvl so you would not search for the crafter and yes the item, there is also teh whole problem with CS selling booster to help you do such cultivation faster, there is also some who would just make a crafter alt to supply his main, or in big guilds, some players would keep then to supply his whole guild with on cost items.

I think in the end of the day shadownbane aproach this teh right way, npcs craft things, you jsut supply then with mats, you could choose what suffix and prefix the item would have, so only thing you would worry about was the sieges

AlBQuirky · March 2019

I'd like to see that, somewhere, somehow. But as @alkarionlog pointed out, the current systems don't support that. Skill caps alone bugger it all up.

It'd be awesome, though, to work on a weight-adjusting bag until you had the best one out there, or armor pieces that outshone others, or weapons that had that extra "UMPH!" to them

Sovrath · March 2019

alkarionlog said:

Amathe said:

In my opinion a player crafter ought to be able to cultivate some type of skill, to where they become able to make items that are qualitatively better than the average version of that item. That way crafters can earn a reputation in the community for their fine wares. In the few games I have played where this is true, I remember seeking out those crafters to try and buy from them.

What do you think?

you still have the problem of the cap, eventually everyone would get on that lvl so you would not search for the crafter and yes the item, there is also teh whole problem with CS selling booster to help you do such cultivation faster, there is also some who would just make a crafter alt to supply his main, or in big guilds, some players would keep then to supply his whole guild with on cost items.

I think in the end of the day shadownbane aproach this teh right way, npcs craft things, you jsut supply then with mats, you could choose what suffix and prefix the item would have, so only thing you would worry about was the sieges

If the system had other elements to it a "cap" wouldn't be the end all and be all.

Maybe there is no "cap" at all other than the level of items that you can make. Maybe it's all skill based with a variety of mini-games and in the moment decisions that go into creating an item.

Perhaps a small amount of rng to help determine quality.

ChildoftheShadows · March 2019

If crafters had control over style it would allow real life taste and talent to set them apart from the rest.

anemo · March 2019

I think that games where a crafter have to spend a pool of skill points with combat skill is a start, if a poor start. Since if this is the only thing the game does, the crafter is a drain on the party, and you'll only have crafter alts.

Crafter skills should also come with simple combat effects like "crafted gear has a passive 5% stat bonus", "for the next 3 hits stats from crafted armor is +80% bonused", and maybe something like "the next 3 enemy attacks don't use stats from their weapon slot". So it turns into something like a Warrior that gives up their stun ability, to get something else related to their crafting. Or a rogue that gives up stealth, to be able craft/use bombs.

Crafted and raid gear should have distinctions. Raid gear should offer really cool build changing abilities, like being the only way to add lifesteal to normal attack. While crafted gear, with a good bit of time put into it should have better stats (devs don't necessarily need to even disrupt the raid rat race by putting a stage of the crafting process in dungeons).

Vermillion_Raventhal · March 2019

ChildoftheShadows said:

If crafters had control over style it would allow real life taste and talent to set them apart from the rest.

Yep style of unique materials like SWG can separate things.

iixviiiix · March 2019

To have this work , you need something like 1 person / character that can't be use by other people.

Lokero · March 2019

Sovrath said:

alkarionlog said:

Amathe said:

In my opinion a player crafter ought to be able to cultivate some type of skill, to where they become able to make items that are qualitatively better than the average version of that item. That way crafters can earn a reputation in the community for their fine wares. In the few games I have played where this is true, I remember seeking out those crafters to try and buy from them.

What do you think?

you still have the problem of the cap, eventually everyone would get on that lvl so you would not search for the crafter and yes the item, there is also teh whole problem with CS selling booster to help you do such cultivation faster, there is also some who would just make a crafter alt to supply his main, or in big guilds, some players would keep then to supply his whole guild with on cost items.

I think in the end of the day shadownbane aproach this teh right way, npcs craft things, you jsut supply then with mats, you could choose what suffix and prefix the item would have, so only thing you would worry about was the sieges

Maybe there is no "cap" at all other than the level of items that you can make. Maybe it's all skill based with a variety of mini-games and in the moment decisions that go into creating an item.

That makes me think of Puzzle Pirates

I'm not advocating turning things into puzzle games, but that game had so many cool features to make player skill/actions matter.

ChildoftheShadows said:

If crafters had control over style it would allow real life taste and talent to set them apart from the rest.

I think most people interested in crafting would prefer a more unique-to-the-crafter system, but we all know that's a development nightmare, and that's why we end up with the lame, useless crafting we have in most MMOs.

The problem we see in the mini-games systems, to date, is that they really don't raise anyone above anyone else. EQ2, FF14, etc., all ended up having those mini-games that were so simple anyone could do them anyway. All they really did was make the crafting more tedious, rather than create any type of (player)skill-based crafting.

I definitely prefer more interactive, personalized crafted items. But, it has to actually matter. If it's just a tedious whack-a-mole, and everyone can max it and make everything anyway, then it's just a wasted system.

AlBQuirky · March 2019

ChildoftheShadows said:

If crafters had control over style it would allow real life taste and talent to set them apart from the rest.

I like the idea, but it cuts into the games' cash shop "cosmetics"

Sovrath · March 2019

ChildoftheShadows said:

If crafters had control over style it would allow real life taste and talent to set them apart from the rest.

That's a tough one.

On one hand I completely agree. It "could" be done on a certain level. for example, I seem to remember seeing something about Final Fantasy 14 crafting where a crafter could alter the look of an item by masking/hiding certain pieces. Not sure if I have that correctly but I remember seeing some video about it.

I've mentioned this before but in Neverwinter nights (not the mmo) there was a trainer that allowed you to change various parts of the armor and weapon and then save it. It was very awesome.

Something like that could work. I'm reticent to say "yay" because I can imagine the monstrosities that players would make if they had actual full freedom.

Lokero · March 2019

Sovrath said:

I've mentioned this before but in Neverwinter nights (not the mmo) there was a trainer that allowed you to change various parts of the armor and weapon and then save it. It was very awesome.

Something like that could work. I'm reticent to say "yay" because I can imagine the monstrosities that players would make if they had actual full freedom.

Interesting approach.

But, that would basically just be a crafter-side transmogrification system instead of the current player-side ones we see.

It would certainly allow for more crafter DNA in the item, but it would also have to completely nullify player transmog systems in order to hold it up. I don't know how much people would like that.

rojoArcueid · March 2019

Like some people said the cap would be an issue when everyone gets to that level. However, there is a much bigger problem that goes hand in hand with level cap, and that is the scripted amount of things one can craft.

Everyone has to choose the same materials from the same pool of materials to craft the same items at any level. That is a huge limitation to the crafting system and possibly impossible to fix.

I don't have an exact solution to this old problem, but I think it could be possible to get rid of recipes and expand the pool of resources. Let crafters create something via trial and error and write their own recipes to share/sell to other players.

Let people be more creative and create something out of anything. Quality would be based on the actual material (a wooden stick would break, a steel sword would get dull, etc), but have every object in the game be a crafting resource. This would still be a limitation of the crafting system in a video game but the pool of resources would literally be the entire game. Beyond that i don't think anything is possible. In reality, crafting can only happen with in-game items so a limitation is inevitable.

Amathe · March 2019

I can remember seeking out crafters in Everquest who could make really good bows and quivers that most people could not make. I had to track them down, find a time when they weren't raiding that I could talk to them, and get them the mats (in person) to make what I needed. I remember being in awe of one of those crafters because she was famous on my server.

All of that is gone anymore.

Mendel · March 2019

Amathe said:

In my opinion a player crafter ought to be able to cultivate some type of skill, to where they become able to make items that are qualitatively better than the average version of that item. That way crafters can earn a reputation in the community for their fine wares. In the few games I have played where this is true, I remember seeking out those crafters to try and buy from them.

What do you think?

I don't have a problem with crafted items having substantial differences. What I do have issues with is the propensity for every player to have access to every crafting skill through a single character or across a series of alts. That takes away the basic premise of crafting -- that not everyone has access to the same skills, and promotes the idea of self-sufficiency. In an MMORPG, mechanisms that work against interaction are harmful, in my opinion.

So, let crafts build items from the same patterns with distinguishing abilities/statistics/characteristics in whatever ways the developers can devise. Just don't let the same person do all crafts independently of others.

Mendel · March 2019

ChildoftheShadows said:

If crafters had control over style it would allow real life taste and talent to set them apart from the rest.

It would be nice, yes, but it is a pipe dream. To really do this, the players would have to design the valid 'recipe' and provide the artwork for the item. That would be tremendously expensive for any game developer to even attempt. Players have to work with the developers skills and ideas can implement, not whatever we'd like.

Lokero · March 2019

Amathe said:

I can remember seeking out crafters in Everquest who could make really good bows and quivers that most people could not make. I had to track them down, find a time when they weren't raiding that I could talk to them, and get them the mats (in person) to make what I needed. I remember being in awe of one of those crafters because she was famous on my server.

All of that is gone anymore.

EQ made high-end crafters rare through sheer horrible design. The crafting in EQ was just absolutely horrible to grind through.

It wasn't hard or challenging or anything like that, it was just repetitive click click click click because you had to manually drag and place every single little material from window to window.

Well, you could argue it was also expensive. The problem was that it cost a fortune to level up most of those skills and most of the stuff you made was worth squat and you ended up selling to a merchant.

You didn't have many high-end crafters in EQ, because it simply wasn't worth the effort.

ChildoftheShadows · March 2019

Mendel said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

If crafters had control over style it would allow real life taste and talent to set them apart from the rest.

It would be nice, yes, but it is a pipe dream. To really do this, the players would have to design the valid 'recipe' and provide the artwork for the item. That would be tremendously expensive for any game developer to even attempt. Players have to work with the developers skills and ideas can implement, not whatever we'd like.

It can all be done in game and the only "intervention" the team would need is following up on reports of offensive material. APB:Reloaded does it. Archeage does it. The mechanics are possible. The challenge is assembling it in such a way that allows crafters to be unique and make their mark.

Politicaldad · March 2019

it can and has been done in prior games in one fashion or another, it comes down to what are the Developers/Programmers willing or able to do.
EQ/DAoC/SWG:ED as examples, even when you reach cap in ONE or TWO different crafts there are other crafts you'll suck at or Sub-Skills that you are short on and not able to produce high-end gear because of it that someone else who has Narrowed their skill to be awesome at one thing

Tamanous · March 2019

Amathe said:

In my opinion a player crafter ought to be able to cultivate some type of skill, to where they become able to make items that are qualitatively better than the average version of that item. That way crafters can earn a reputation in the community for their fine wares. In the few games I have played where this is true, I remember seeking out those crafters to try and buy from them.

What do you think?

I think you should play Camelot Unchained.

Amathe · March 2019

Lokero said:

EQ made high-end crafters rare through sheer horrible design. The crafting in EQ was just absolutely horrible to grind through.

EQ was full of things like that. It was 1999, and they didn't have 200 previous games to look at to see how other people did it and how that turned out. So some of their design elements ended up being a hard kick to the jimmies.

That said, I still liked crafting in EQ, through I did not distinguish myself. And I did admire the folks who hung in there somehow and became exceptional at it.

ChildoftheShadows · March 2019

Another method that people don't seem to like is to make the grind horrifically long while each "level" nets a minuscule improvement.

Think about it for a moment. You start crafting and you are capable of crafting any item in the game. Maybe not every item, but every type so no matter what you are always able to craft anything. In real live I can turn a piece of ore into a knife or a sword, but it's probably going to suck. So you can craft some pretty crappy stuff.

As you practice by creating more and more swords, you improve your blacksmithing skills a little, and improve your sword making skills a bit more. If it takes 2 years to max out your sword crafting you'll be the best at it, decent at other blacksmithing and terrible at everything else.

You are now unique

Scot · March 2019

I agree, but I am afraid such design would be against the current design template of MMOs, no casual must feel he is missing out so putting in extra time yields few rewards.

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