So many of the games now have much more involved combat that when you watch a game like Pantheon, where the players just stand there and hit a mob for 10 minutes, then frankly its quite boring.
If you were just clubbing a seal during that 10 minutes, it might be boring (and mean).
But you are busier than it looks. You have to watch aggro. You have to help fellow players in various ways and fight. You have special abilities to use. You have to watch the builder/spender status (and keep your abilities bar up). You have to react to what the mob is doing. And so on.
I'll admit that after years of playing other mmos, looking back on it seems a little slow. But that never bothered me before. Part of the intrigue is the very real possibility of getting killed, unlike so many games today where you pull 10 guys and mow them down like crabgrass.
Also, people like Theocritus are looking at it through a very "modern MMO" lens, where it's all "go go go, fast fast fast, run run run". Where if a fight takes more than a few seconds, it's "too slow and feels grindy". They judge the fun of an encounter by how quickly it's over, and possibly, how rewarding it was.
This is what they, and many other players, particularly those weened on "post-WoW" MMOs, don't understand. They're looking at the situation very differently than those who played and enjoyed those old-school MMOs did.
Watching combat in an old-school MMO seems slow and boring in the same way watching someone play Chess could seem slow and boring to someone unfamiliar with it. All that time staring at a chess board only to move a piece... then waiting some more..-yawn- right? But no.. It's not -yawn-, because anyone familiar with Chess, at all, understands that in those quiet, still moments, people's brains are churning out strategies, planning and thinking ahead, plotting traps for their opponent.
Though not in the same way, and for different reasons, it's similar in old-school MMO combat. During those still moments between attacks, especially in group encounters, there's a lot being considered and managed. Hate management is *critical*. Balanced healing is *critical*, DPS output management is *critical*. Any one player under- or over-does it and things can go South very quickly. And that's before considering the abilities and traits of the given enemy being fought.
Many of the most tense encounters I've had in MMOs was fighting *regular* mobs in FFXI. I remember many encounters like one in Crawler's Nest, in the so-called "Sac Room". A crawler just happened to wander a little too close to us while we were fighting another, and joined in. We were fighting an "Incredibly Tough, with higher defense" mob - or "IT+" for short. The one that linked on was also IT+.
What was already a considerable fight became extremely intense. Our Black Mage went into Crowd Control mode on the add, while also trying to help take down the current fight faster, while trying not to run out of MP. The Tank now had to keep aggro on the current fight, while also provoking the slept one to make sure when it woke up, it immediately targeted them. The White Mage had to manage their MP to last through two consecutive difficult fights, instead of one. If the add woke up and we lost control of it, it was a guaranteed wipe, or darn close to one. We all pulled out all the stops, gave it our best, and ultimately cleared the fight, with no deaths - though we came damn close.
If you think that encounter, or others like it feel "slow" or "boring"... you've never experienced one. It's a rush like no other "modern MMO" has been able to deliver, outside of hard mode dungeon bosses, or raid fights... but definitely not in regular content.
Mind you, even single encounters could get really hairy, very fast, depending on the enemy. Some enemies had special attacks (which were not scripted but selected at random) that could royally screw you up if you weren't prepared to either prevent or recover. Some hit like a truck. Some had a nasty habit of, say, removing your ability to use certain skills (imps out in Aht Urghan comes to mind), putting key group members to sleep... Dropping nasty DOTs on members, and so on. Sometimes a combination of things.
Encounters like that weren't unique or even very rare. No matter how careful, you never knew where a mob might decide to wander, during a fight, during a pull, etc.
Now, I don't know what kind of surprises Brad and co. plan to spring on players during the course of a given fight. I don't know what kind of "gotchas" or "oh shit" moments we might experience... but I hope they're many and I hope they're as intense as situations like my FFXI examples.
But couldn't you have that same feeling of danger without the combat being 30 years old? I get your point, but it doesn't change the fact that it still looks super boring.
What you would lose doing that is part of what made games like EQ fun, which was the conversation. Nowadays it's run, run, run, pew, pew pew. People often don't even talk to one another. I have been on entire dungeon runs and raids in WoW without anyone speaking. Just zoom, zoom, zoom.
Now some folks, perhaps many folks, may like that. But I don't. I miss the old days when I chatted with my group mates as we adventured. Those interactions were some of the best part.
I'm not saying it is impossible to have both. But I see no harm in having ONE game that is not constant run, run, run, pew, pew, pew.
I think for players like us early MMOs were more of a social experience with a much lower emphasis on the actual gameplay.
Today players socialize in so many other ways so when gaming the focus is mostly on the action.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So many of the games now have much more involved combat that when you watch a game like Pantheon, where the players just stand there and hit a mob for 10 minutes, then frankly its quite boring.
If you were just clubbing a seal during that 10 minutes, it might be boring (and mean).
But you are busier than it looks. You have to watch aggro. You have to help fellow players in various ways and fight. You have special abilities to use. You have to watch the builder/spender status (and keep your abilities bar up). You have to react to what the mob is doing. And so on.
I'll admit that after years of playing other mmos, looking back on it seems a little slow. But that never bothered me before. Part of the intrigue is the very real possibility of getting killed, unlike so many games today where you pull 10 guys and mow them down like crabgrass.
Also, people like Theocritus are looking at it through a very "modern MMO" lens, where it's all "go go go, fast fast fast, run run run". Where if a fight takes more than a few seconds, it's "too slow and feels grindy". They judge the fun of an encounter by how quickly it's over, and possibly, how rewarding it was.
This is what they, and many other players, particularly those weened on "post-WoW" MMOs, don't understand. They're looking at the situation very differently than those who played and enjoyed those old-school MMOs did.
Watching combat in an old-school MMO seems slow and boring in the same way watching someone play Chess could seem slow and boring to someone unfamiliar with it. All that time staring at a chess board only to move a piece... then waiting some more..-yawn- right? But no.. It's not -yawn-, because anyone familiar with Chess, at all, understands that in those quiet, still moments, people's brains are churning out strategies, planning and thinking ahead, plotting traps for their opponent.
Though not in the same way, and for different reasons, it's similar in old-school MMO combat. During those still moments between attacks, especially in group encounters, there's a lot being considered and managed. Hate management is *critical*. Balanced healing is *critical*, DPS output management is *critical*. Any one player under- or over-does it and things can go South very quickly. And that's before considering the abilities and traits of the given enemy being fought.
Many of the most tense encounters I've had in MMOs was fighting *regular* mobs in FFXI. I remember many encounters like one in Crawler's Nest, in the so-called "Sac Room". A crawler just happened to wander a little too close to us while we were fighting another, and joined in. We were fighting an "Incredibly Tough, with higher defense" mob - or "IT+" for short. The one that linked on was also IT+.
What was already a considerable fight became extremely intense. Our Black Mage went into Crowd Control mode on the add, while also trying to help take down the current fight faster, while trying not to run out of MP. The Tank now had to keep aggro on the current fight, while also provoking the slept one to make sure when it woke up, it immediately targeted them. The White Mage had to manage their MP to last through two consecutive difficult fights, instead of one. If the add woke up and we lost control of it, it was a guaranteed wipe, or darn close to one. We all pulled out all the stops, gave it our best, and ultimately cleared the fight, with no deaths - though we came damn close.
If you think that encounter, or others like it feel "slow" or "boring"... you've never experienced one. It's a rush like no other "modern MMO" has been able to deliver, outside of hard mode dungeon bosses, or raid fights... but definitely not in regular content.
Mind you, even single encounters could get really hairy, very fast, depending on the enemy. Some enemies had special attacks (which were not scripted but selected at random) that could royally screw you up if you weren't prepared to either prevent or recover. Some hit like a truck. Some had a nasty habit of, say, removing your ability to use certain skills (imps out in Aht Urghan comes to mind), putting key group members to sleep... Dropping nasty DOTs on members, and so on. Sometimes a combination of things.
Encounters like that weren't unique or even very rare. No matter how careful, you never knew where a mob might decide to wander, during a fight, during a pull, etc.
Now, I don't know what kind of surprises Brad and co. plan to spring on players during the course of a given fight. I don't know what kind of "gotchas" or "oh shit" moments we might experience... but I hope they're many and I hope they're as intense as situations like my FFXI examples.
Played FFXI religiously, still think what we've seen so far of Pantheon looks boring as hell. Especially that druid gameplay, holy shit. Cast two spells, sit for two minutes, rinse and repeat.......no thanks.
But couldn't you have that same feeling of danger without the combat being 30 years old? I get your point, but it doesn't change the fact that it still looks super boring.
What you would lose doing that is part of what made games like EQ fun, which was the conversation. Nowadays it's run, run, run, pew, pew pew. People often don't even talk to one another. I have been on entire dungeon runs and raids in WoW without anyone speaking. Just zoom, zoom, zoom.
Now some folks, perhaps many folks, may like that. But I don't. I miss the old days when I chatted with my group mates as we adventured. Those interactions were some of the best part.
I'm not saying it is impossible to have both. But I see no harm in having ONE game that is not constant run, run, run, pew, pew, pew.
I think for players like us early MMOs were more of a social experience with a much lower emphasis on the actual gameplay.
Today players socialize in so many other ways so when gaming the focus is mostly on the action.
I remember playing EQ at launch and the game did feel like a glorified mIRC channel.
EQ combat was designed with with that in mind. You could easily text chat, read a book or watch a film whilst engaged in combat.
It was a frightfully depressing experience playing without friends. Like being alone in a chat room.
Played FFXI religiously, still think what we've seen so far of Pantheon looks boring as hell. Especially that druid gameplay, holy shit. Cast two spells, sit for two minutes, rinse and repeat.......no thanks.
What game do you think is "exciting?" Just wondering where you are on the spectrum.
For example, combat like Devil May Cry is just horrid to me. I prefer something that feels more impactful and slower like Dark Souls or Mount and Blade.
But there are people who like especially fast, lightning yet wispy combat.
As for me, I can do Pantheon combat because I don't look at it as "realistic" but more "game like."
An example is when I play Darkest Dungeon I think of it as a "game" not an immersive realistic experience. I think the same can be said of older games like Everquest which I've been fooling around with.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Vanguard was the game where they really tried to make something unique that was a spiritual successor to EQ1 - but Pantheon they are making something a lot closer to vanilla EQ1
My main hope is that once they have the game running and funding is coming in, they start to expand the game into a more Vanguard like experience.
Right now however the majority of fans seems to be ex-EQ players and they demand a new EQ1. So thats what we'll get.
Being a former EQ1 player for several years, i was curious to see what this was going to be like. I've watched a half dozen or so playthroughs on youtube, and to be honest the game doesn't impress me. Like others here have said, it looks like a slightly better (graphically) EQ1. There was a time I think people would have been ok with that, but I think that time may have passed. So many of the games now have much more involved combat that when you watch a game like Pantheon, where the players just stand there and hit a mob for 10 minutes, then frankly its quite boring.
Really ? THAT is your complaint ? You want the game to be an action game, focused on complex animations instead of a complex rulesystem ? Sorry, but I would have zero interest into that.
Even more so since you just used the super lame "but its modern to make a shallow game" line of argument. YIKES.
I think for players like us early MMOs were more of a social experience with a much lower emphasis on the actual gameplay.
I totally agree there was a major social component.
But "action" nowadays seems to be defined as running, button mashing and circle hopping. I would argue that EQ had plenty of action, if action is defined as 'the challenge to stay alive." It was sooooo easy to die in EQ, and the penalties for dying were severe. That kept my heart in my teeth most of the time, which to me is "action."
Heck, even when I was a new player in the newbie yard, I had to run to the local guards for protection - from newbie mobs! Where else do you see that? And as I ran, I passed the corpses of other players who didn't make it to the guards in time.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Being a former EQ1 player for several years, i was curious to see what this was going to be like. I've watched a half dozen or so playthroughs on youtube, and to be honest the game doesn't impress me. Like others here have said, it looks like a slightly better (graphically) EQ1. There was a time I think people would have been ok with that, but I think that time may have passed. So many of the games now have much more involved combat that when you watch a game like Pantheon, where the players just stand there and hit a mob for 10 minutes, then frankly its quite boring.
Can you watch A FULL VIDEO of someone digging a full garden, doing a crossword puzzle or even something more exciting like playing kickball with their kids ?
A more modern example, a FULL VIDEO of a 20 year old millennial typing on Facebook for two hours ?
No, because you yourself are not doing it... It's a different kind of fun, yet huge amounts of people STILL find this type of fun extremely enjoyable. Even a younger generation.
@Theocritus, what your saying is you don't like mmorpg's anymore (real ones). It also has nothing to do with modern kids, they may or not like them, no different today or yesterday.
Two years ago when I first met my wifes daughters boy friend, he was glued to his cell phone. Now he doesn't even pull it out.
With us that like what Pantheon has to offer are doing is, watching OTHERS PLAYING and putting ourselfs in their shoes..... We then ask ourselfs.... Would we like it too ?
If we watch a Youtube of digging a garden. We don't watch it for two hours straight, but a few minuets.... Then say " I think I'll dig a garden".
Well I agree, I prefer doing but apparently quite a few folks enjoy watching others play games for hours on end, which I would consider much like your two hour garden example.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well I agree, I prefer doing but apparently quite a few folks enjoy watching others play games for hours on end, which I would consider much like your two hour garden example.
I used to love watching a friend/roommate play warcraft II "for hours on end." Also Doom and Doom II.
Once he finished Warcraft II I bought him Warcraft III.
It was very entertaining.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Well I agree, I prefer doing but apparently quite a few folks enjoy watching others play games for hours on end, which I would consider much like your two hour garden example.
That CAN be very fun if the person in question does it in an interesting way.
For example if they are exceptionally skillfull at the game. Theres nothing like a good Playerunknown's Battlegrounds run. Some of these players give you the impression they can actually SMELL their opponents, they're just so good at finding them. Others gun down a whole group of four so fast that none of the victims was able to shoot a single bullet in their direction in retaliation. Awesome. Skill.
Or if somebody has analyzed a game in depth and shows an especially efficient strategy.
Or if somebody is simply entertaining, like if they're funny.
Unfortunately the type of games I actually want to play myself are rare. I certainly dont like the idea to fumble through PUBG because I would stink and I have nowhere near enough time to train for getting good at that game.
I know ppl use to say FFXI looked boring as hell even in high end battles when they watched me, but when you are the one playing, it was far from boring. Every fight made you think, react to random occurrences with the boss, plan ahead of pulls, and utilize resources you had. It had to be done right or you could kill yourself or the whole raid. Your party setup decided what you could do. How much you could heal for, how much you could nuke for. DPS going to hard would kill everyone, because tanks had limited threat generating ability. Healers could run of mp and could not infinite cure bomb an epeening dps.
I mean when you were in a zone where almost every mob links/assist other mobs... And all the mobs are equivalent strength of a whole party of 6 geared players. It is never boring when fighting in that situation.
For me the above is a hell of a lot more fun then playing Dodge the exact same circles and do the same rotation for 10mins on every single encounter. Where tanks generate infinite Threat. Healers never run out of mp. And Dps only care about Big Parser numbers. And anyone outside a dungeon is a walking god that can kill 10 to 20 mobs at once without even remotely being at risk of dying.
I am watching Pantheon because it seems to have alot of those elements I want in a mmo. But I am still not sure if VR can pull of a polished full AAA quality game that will stand up in this day and age.
I do not think Pantheon will be a massive success in todays standard where that = millions of players. I feel it will either pull 150-200kish subs if it is really really good, maby 50k-100k if it is ok to good, or it will just fail and die in weeks if it is bad. I am putting money in the middle numbers there.
I want a solid old style mmo again, one that I can play with a group for a seemingly endless amount of time, with real decisions and consequences. But I will not play a mediocre game, it has to be as good or better then the older games of the same style for me to play it.
<snip, for brevity only> Me and my gut thinks Brad cannot evolve beyond what he already understands and that is his EQ way of thinking.For some a reskinned EQ is good enough,not for me,i EXPECTED this genre to advance a LOT sooner and a LOT better and it has instead gone downhill.
I had hopes that Brad could do something outside of what his previous games reflect. If it's out there, I've not seen anything that Brad is attempting to stretch his personal boundaries. It looks like an upgraded version of EQ1, just more of the same. I hesitate to call that evolutionary. I really had hopes that VR would bring something out of the box to the table.
Maybe the next game, but more realistically, I might have to wait for the game after that before the genre will start to scratch territory that I call 'new'.
It is very much vanilla EQ1+
Vanguard was the game where they really tried to make something unique that was a spiritual successor to EQ1 - but Pantheon they are making something a lot closer to vanilla EQ1
So for anyone looking for innovation and a bunch of new ideas that would push the MMO boundry - this is not the game you are looking for.
I think you may be right about Pantheon, but can you tell us the names of some MMOs that are brimming with innovation and pushing the boundaries. I am not seeing that right now.
Well, in the indie space I recall:
Ashes the MMORPG - besides the marketable (?) BR "testing tool?
OK, they also have their node system which appears to be pretty innovative, though we've not been shown it in action yet.
Crowfall - Persistent on one hand, with player characters existing in their own right, living in special worlds, while all gameplay occurs in time constrained campaigns with varying conditions.
This btw seems very much like POE and its "leagues" without the restart feature, but it wouldn't surprise me to see CF add similar at some point.
CU - all of the "fun" of DAOC's RVR gameplay without the messy and time wasting PVE leveling beforehand.
Perhaps it's more like Planetside on steroids?
COE - C'mon now, they are promising players the sun, moon and stars, served with champagne, but delivered on a beer budget, how can you not be excited?
Can't forget about Star Citizen, not sure about the game but raising over $200M plus in totally free money (with no end in sight) is probably the innovation of the century, even if no one else can replicate it.
The common denominator is that none of them can actually demonstrate a complete game session. The promises may be different, but there's no solid game play to test any promises against. Ideas are cheap; implementation is expensive and may not mesh with the ideas.
That's right! Keep supporting mediocrity and no ingenuity or risk taking ... like this guy and those who agreed with him. lol
Lord knows I still enjoy EQ1. I tried Neverwinter and just can't get into it yet. I'm also starting to play EQ2 again. The reason I'm waiting for Pantheon launch and want to play is because it seems to have what I'm looking for. Things like:
1) Traditional RPG - generally most MMORPGs have this - and not MMOG/RPG hybrid
2) Group-focused
3) I liked/like EQ1 and would like VG, so similarities to them are fine for me
4) I always kind of liked Brad--maybe because I've been a longtime programmer, and I know he at least started out that way
More than anything, I like the way it's. Generally:
1) Aggro management
2) Inventory management
3) Stat managemnet; hitpoints/mana/etc
4) Travel restrictions; and actual danger along the way
5) Actual dangers and pitfalls in the lower levels--it's not handed to you
6) Death penalty you feel
7) Tanking / Healing / Dps ... and the all important / Crowd Control / Support
* Regarding support, utility like invis spells or see invis or water breathing or levitate are wonderful
* Having outside/inside restrictions, and others, is something I think is good
8) Less linear questing or dungeon delving
* Do you feel like you're making your story; is your adventure unique to you?
I think one of the reasons RPGs or MMORPGs can start to feel stale is bcause designers are too cautious about balancing. Being looser with the core design, and taking some chances with spells and skills and class abilities, can free up the players imagination more and make us feel like it's not cookie cutter. I think allowing some imbalance is what creates the magic. The unknown is the magic.
Regarding its group-focus, this is an article I come back to again and again in my mind. I'm always strongly agreeing with it. Not everybody does. Many strongly oppose this attitude. In fact, the article writer later amended his/her thoughts to disagree with them, in response to a large negative response. I of course still agree with the original. For the sake of what I post here, it wouldn't be complete without this article:
Those early games, in all their brutal punishment and so-called 'abuse'
of the players actually gave the players something
that instinctively motivated them to form the foundation of a strong
societal framework within the confines of the game world. In layman's
terms: those rats handing you your ass just outside the Freeport
city gates actually made you actively seek out other players for
protection. You would form groups for adventuring because the world was just to tough without them, and the cost of death was too high.
Later:
So why is it that I say more modern MMO's have gotten it wrong? Because
for the most part, they do not meet any of these basic needs for forming
strong communities. It is not that they lack players, but rather in
their rush to please everyone they have eliminated the one thing
guaranteed to create a strong community. They have eliminated the
challenge of survival. They have eliminated the need to band together in
order to conquer the environment. Sure, you have raids and other such
end game events that have 'mandatory' participation levels, but that no
more means you have a community than having 1500 Facebook friends means
you are well liked.
Again, I so strongly agree, but many strongly disagree. Bare in mind I also like survival games, so maybe it taints my opinions.
But couldn't you have that same feeling of danger without the combat being 30 years old? I get your point, but it doesn't change the fact that it still looks super boring.
What you would lose doing that is part of what made games like EQ fun, which was the conversation. Nowadays it's run, run, run, pew, pew pew. People often don't even talk to one another. I have been on entire dungeon runs and raids in WoW without anyone speaking. Just zoom, zoom, zoom.
Now some folks, perhaps many folks, may like that. But I don't. I miss the old days when I chatted with my group mates as we adventured. Those interactions were some of the best part.
I'm not saying it is impossible to have both. But I see no harm in having ONE game that is not constant run, run, run, pew, pew, pew.
I get that. But I think you are looking at it from an early 2000s perspective. People today have twitter, FB, Discord etc. In the past in game was how most people kept in contact. People have so much online interaction today that in game they just want to sit back and play. The days of people sitting around in game are gone. I too miss those days but the gaming demographic is completely different today than before. Most people who want to chat during gaming will do it in voice chat which doesn't require downtime.
You also said yourself that it's "not clubbing a seal to death for 10 mins" kind of combat. But one that is very complicated that needs your attention on buffs, aggro watching, special abilities , spenders/builders etc. So when will you have time to chat? I think what you're hoping for and the reality of the gaming community in 2020+ when this launches will be different things. The younger demographic which will be the majority of the gaming community want Apex legends and quicker (not necessarily easier) gameplay.
I think it's fine that one game offers this for the golden oldie players like yourself. But how many of those types of gamers are left? Most of the gamers I played with in DAoC and other older mmos either don't play at all anymore, have very limited time or won't even know this mmo exists. So if this game is going to survive it will need more than the few old vets who want their 8 tracks players back.
Have you also considered that you as a 40+ year old gamer might not actually want to sit around chatting with 14-20 year olds? Just something to think about.
Many people think anything without twitch combat is boring. They can go somewhere else.
Why is it when someone criticizes this mmos combat it instantly means they want DMC5 twitch combat? Personally I want something innovative, meaningful and fun. Either something new or somewhere between super slow and fast twitch combat. Something that transcends having to auto-attack and press 1-9 in a specific order.
I want a combat system that requires me to actually block, adapt to different attacks, dismember or incapacitate a specific limb. Wearing plate armor? How about using fire element in some way to heat that armor up and injury them by making it feel like they are wearing an oven. Someone has a shield? Why not be able to focus on their lower legs or parry their shield bashes without relying on an artificial dice roll. Just come up with something new. It can even be slower, just a lot more dynamic instead static and boring.
Many people think anything without twitch combat is boring. They can go somewhere else.
Why is it when someone criticizes this mmos combat it instantly means they want DMC5 twitch combat? Personally I want something innovative, meaningful and fun. Either something new or somewhere between super slow and fast twitch combat. Something that transcends having to auto-attack and press 1-9 in a specific order.
I want a combat system that requires me to actually block, adapt to different attacks, dismember or incapacitate a specific limb. Wearing plate armor? How about using fire element in some way to heat that armor up and injury them by making it feel like they are wearing an oven. Someone has a shield? Why not be able to focus on their lower legs or parry their shield bashes without relying on an artificial dice roll. Just come up with something new. It can even be slower, just a lot more dynamic instead static and boring.
Yep. It is the same whack a mole combat that has been done for 20 years. I am glad that they are making this project for those few fans left to play it but the vast vast majority of older mmorpg players have moved on. A long time ago. This project is niche within a niche genre. Regression therapy.
You realize your statement is like saying "golf is the same hit the small white ball" gameplay, or "tennis is the same hit the ball back and forth across the net" or how about, "skiing, silly, just sliding down hills on two pieces of wood", none of which have changed in 100 years, how could anyone want to still do any of them?
Video games are weird, people only commit a short amount of time to any one of them, even though like any sport it could take a lifetime to master just one....
Wait Kyle, you can't compare games to sports. OK, my father played contract bridge for over 50 years, was some sort of grand master at it, and some people even played chess, horseshoes, bocci, and heck, shuffleboard.
I don't recall Dad complaining about the boring gameplay and asking to have dice throwing or bats added in to make it more interesting. Golf could have probably used some tackling though....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Many people think anything without twitch combat is boring. They can go somewhere else.
Why is it when someone criticizes this mmos combat it instantly means they want DMC5 twitch combat? Personally I want something innovative, meaningful and fun. Either something new or somewhere between super slow and fast twitch combat. Something that transcends having to auto-attack and press 1-9 in a specific order.
I want a combat system that requires me to actually block, adapt to different attacks, dismember or incapacitate a specific limb. Wearing plate armor? How about using fire element in some way to heat that armor up and injury them by making it feel like they are wearing an oven. Someone has a shield? Why not be able to focus on their lower legs or parry their shield bashes without relying on an artificial dice roll. Just come up with something new. It can even be slower, just a lot more dynamic instead static and boring.
Yep. It is the same whack a mole combat that has been done for 20 years. I am glad that they are making this project for those few fans left to play it but the vast vast majority of older mmorpg players have moved on. A long time ago. This project is niche within a niche genre. Regression therapy.
You realize your statement is like saying "golf is the same hit the small white ball" gameplay, or "tennis is the same hit the ball back and forth across the net" or how about, "skiing, silly, just sliding down hills on two pieces of wood", none of which have changed in 100 years, how could anyone want to still do any of them?
Video games are weird, people only commit a short amount of time to any one of them, even though like any sport it could take a lifetime to master just one....
Wait Kyle, you can't compare games to sports. OK, my father played contract bridge for over 50 years, was some sort of grand master at it, and some people even played chess, horseshoes, bocci, and heck, shuffleboard.
I don't recall Dad complaining about the boring gameplay and asking to have dice throwing or bats added in to make it more interesting. Golf could have probably used some tackling though....
It isnt the same thing because interactive entertainment can and has shown the ability to add and evolve. This is not sport. This is a conversation about a virtual world and your ability to engage in it. Nothing at all the same. Mario has shown the way a simple hop and bop game genre can evolve into something much much more while still holding true to the genre it is. Zelda breath of the wild is still a Zelda game compared to the first one but has evolved into a world that stays true to the spirit of adventure while expanding on what they laid down in the past. MMORPGs have not evolved in the same manner as most other genres. That is the issue.
I believe technical and social limitations restrict the "evolution" of the online gaming space, and in particular MMORPGs.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You most certainly can compare real live sports to anything,you know why,because it is real people doing real things.You know who designs video games>>real people,doing real things.
If you are going to use a comparison/analogy it has to be in the same context.Example saying nobody back then complained about not having a bat in a game of Yahtzee would be a dumb analogy,yahtzee is not supposed to have a bat,so why would anyone even ask for it?
However if comparing a TEAM game with a TEAM game in real life,the same analogies come true,it is a team of minds,a team that hopefully works together to conquer a foe,doesn't matter if it is a real foe or a make believe one,the idea is the same.
Anyhow this is about Pantheon,I would hope people have a grasp for a person/developer that has been around 25 years or more,if not,do you pay attention AT ALL?
if anything i thought Brad lacked creativity,everything in his designs seemed too simple ,cut n dry and always followed the exact same formula.Have i seen any gimmicks in his ventures,not that i can think of so i don't expect any now either.I already said what i think comes of this result,same old new skin,this is how Brad works and is not likely to change unless some or a few have a VERY strong influence over the design systems.
You know i have always liked Brad,never had any problems with him at all,i even used to mention i loved VG and i always thought SOE had the best customer service i have ever used.I could have offered tons of great ideas but you know what,ALL devs are the same,nobody cares or listens to gamer's,that can be good or bad.People listen to >>$$$$ and that is a sad reality.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
This is what they, and many other players, particularly those weened on "post-WoW" MMOs, don't understand. They're looking at the situation very differently than those who played and enjoyed those old-school MMOs did.
Watching combat in an old-school MMO seems slow and boring in the same way watching someone play Chess could seem slow and boring to someone unfamiliar with it. All that time staring at a chess board only to move a piece... then waiting some more..-yawn- right? But no.. It's not -yawn-, because anyone familiar with Chess, at all, understands that in those quiet, still moments, people's brains are churning out strategies, planning and thinking ahead, plotting traps for their opponent.
Though not in the same way, and for different reasons, it's similar in old-school MMO combat. During those still moments between attacks, especially in group encounters, there's a lot being considered and managed. Hate management is *critical*. Balanced healing is *critical*, DPS output management is *critical*. Any one player under- or over-does it and things can go South very quickly. And that's before considering the abilities and traits of the given enemy being fought.
Many of the most tense encounters I've had in MMOs was fighting *regular* mobs in FFXI. I remember many encounters like one in Crawler's Nest, in the so-called "Sac Room". A crawler just happened to wander a little too close to us while we were fighting another, and joined in. We were fighting an "Incredibly Tough, with higher defense" mob - or "IT+" for short. The one that linked on was also IT+.
What was already a considerable fight became extremely intense. Our Black Mage went into Crowd Control mode on the add, while also trying to help take down the current fight faster, while trying not to run out of MP. The Tank now had to keep aggro on the current fight, while also provoking the slept one to make sure when it woke up, it immediately targeted them. The White Mage had to manage their MP to last through two consecutive difficult fights, instead of one. If the add woke up and we lost control of it, it was a guaranteed wipe, or darn close to one. We all pulled out all the stops, gave it our best, and ultimately cleared the fight, with no deaths - though we came damn close.
If you think that encounter, or others like it feel "slow" or "boring"... you've never experienced one. It's a rush like no other "modern MMO" has been able to deliver, outside of hard mode dungeon bosses, or raid fights... but definitely not in regular content.
Mind you, even single encounters could get really hairy, very fast, depending on the enemy. Some enemies had special attacks (which were not scripted but selected at random) that could royally screw you up if you weren't prepared to either prevent or recover. Some hit like a truck. Some had a nasty habit of, say, removing your ability to use certain skills (imps out in Aht Urghan comes to mind), putting key group members to sleep... Dropping nasty DOTs on members, and so on. Sometimes a combination of things.
Encounters like that weren't unique or even very rare. No matter how careful, you never knew where a mob might decide to wander, during a fight, during a pull, etc.
Now, I don't know what kind of surprises Brad and co. plan to spring on players during the course of a given fight. I don't know what kind of "gotchas" or "oh shit" moments we might experience... but I hope they're many and I hope they're as intense as situations like my FFXI examples.
Today players socialize in so many other ways so when gaming the focus is mostly on the action.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
But "action" nowadays seems to be defined as running, button mashing and circle hopping. I would argue that EQ had plenty of action, if action is defined as 'the challenge to stay alive." It was sooooo easy to die in EQ, and the penalties for dying were severe. That kept my heart in my teeth most of the time, which to me is "action."
Heck, even when I was a new player in the newbie yard, I had to run to the local guards for protection - from newbie mobs! Where else do you see that? And as I ran, I passed the corpses of other players who didn't make it to the guards in time.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
For example if they are exceptionally skillfull at the game. Theres nothing like a good Playerunknown's Battlegrounds run. Some of these players give you the impression they can actually SMELL their opponents, they're just so good at finding them. Others gun down a whole group of four so fast that none of the victims was able to shoot a single bullet in their direction in retaliation. Awesome. Skill.
It helps sometimes to watch another player solve a puzzle.
And I like to preview games by watching a few vids to see if I might enjoy them.
But otherwise, I would rather watch paint dry than other players gaming.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
You stay sassy!
MMOs are not Games: Where MMO's Go Wrong
Later:
Again, I so strongly agree, but many strongly disagree. Bare in mind I also like survival games, so maybe it taints my opinions.
You also said yourself that it's "not clubbing a seal to death for 10 mins" kind of combat. But one that is very complicated that needs your attention on buffs, aggro watching, special abilities , spenders/builders etc. So when will you have time to chat? I think what you're hoping for and the reality of the gaming community in 2020+ when this launches will be different things. The younger demographic which will be the majority of the gaming community want Apex legends and quicker (not necessarily easier) gameplay.
I think it's fine that one game offers this for the golden oldie players like yourself. But how many of those types of gamers are left? Most of the gamers I played with in DAoC and other older mmos either don't play at all anymore, have very limited time or won't even know this mmo exists. So if this game is going to survive it will need more than the few old vets who want their 8 tracks players back.
Have you also considered that you as a 40+ year old gamer might not actually want to sit around chatting with 14-20 year olds? Just something to think about.
I want a combat system that requires me to actually block, adapt to different attacks, dismember or incapacitate a specific limb. Wearing plate armor? How about using fire element in some way to heat that armor up and injury them by making it feel like they are wearing an oven. Someone has a shield? Why not be able to focus on their lower legs or parry their shield bashes without relying on an artificial dice roll. Just come up with something new. It can even be slower, just a lot more dynamic instead static and boring.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Video games are weird, people only commit a short amount of time to any one of them, even though like any sport it could take a lifetime to master just one....
Wait Kyle, you can't compare games to sports. OK, my father played contract bridge for over 50 years, was some sort of grand master at it, and some people even played chess, horseshoes, bocci, and heck, shuffleboard.
I don't recall Dad complaining about the boring gameplay and asking to have dice throwing or bats added in to make it more interesting. Golf could have probably used some tackling though....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You most certainly can compare real live sports to anything,you know why,because it is real people doing real things.You know who designs video games>>real people,doing real things.
If you are going to use a comparison/analogy it has to be in the same context.Example saying nobody back then complained about not having a bat in a game of Yahtzee would be a dumb analogy,yahtzee is not supposed to have a bat,so why would anyone even ask for it?
However if comparing a TEAM game with a TEAM game in real life,the same analogies come true,it is a team of minds,a team that hopefully works together to conquer a foe,doesn't matter if it is a real foe or a make believe one,the idea is the same.
Anyhow this is about Pantheon,I would hope people have a grasp for a person/developer that has been around 25 years or more,if not,do you pay attention AT ALL?
if anything i thought Brad lacked creativity,everything in his designs seemed too simple ,cut n dry and always followed the exact same formula.Have i seen any gimmicks in his ventures,not that i can think of so i don't expect any now either.I already said what i think comes of this result,same old new skin,this is how Brad works and is not likely to change unless some or a few have a VERY strong influence over the design systems.
You know i have always liked Brad,never had any problems with him at all,i even used to mention i loved VG and i always thought SOE had the best customer service i have ever used.I could have offered tons of great ideas but you know what,ALL devs are the same,nobody cares or listens to gamer's,that can be good or bad.People listen to >>$$$$ and that is a sad reality.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.