RPG has a different meaning for MMORPG

Vermillion_Raventhal · March 2019

When you talk about RPG people think levels, quest and gear. This the staple of RPG games for the most part. You play a character who progresses through ranks and story.

MMORPG are not the same. I think MMORPG is a bad name for what we play. Each person's story can be the role they play. If I played a black smith class and my logins are me running a business and crafting/trading with other players, that is my role. My story. I don't need a story or NPC to tell me or quest to guide me each step.

I always believed that developers should facilitate player's stories not tell them their what their story is through quest. Quest should arise from need, knowledge, curiosity or just random chance. If a developer is telling his story it should be again facilitated through a system.

You know, plant a few books in the world that details a ritual for power on a certain day. This ritual instead summons a demon and a world crisis scenario. NPCs standing around to be a quest where to everyone should die. Unless it's a ritual to character development.

Kyleran · March 2019

These days MMORPG seems to mean "Many Microtransactions Onerously Robbing & Pillaging Gamers" or something to this effect.

Sovrath · March 2019

I think it's a bit of both.

I completely agree that it is a "role" that the player plays. Part of how they build their character as well as how they play their character.

I also believe that part of playing that role is the creation and growth of that character.

Amaranthar · March 2019

Sovrath said:

I think it's a bit of both.

I completely agree that it is a "role" that the player plays. Part of how they build their character as well as how they play their character.

I also believe that part of playing that role is the creation and growth of that character.

The big difference is that in a RPG the player character's story is unique in that world (even if it's re-read hundreds of thousand times in other "universes", i.e. individual game worlds.

In an MMORPG, the same basic story is applied to every character, all of the same world, through the level grind quests.

It just seems to be missing something.

Kyleran · March 2019

As to the OP, I believe the strengths MMORPG's offer is the "opportunity" for players to create their own adventure, alone or even better with others.

IMO single player games are better venues for leading players through a well crafted story, certainly some will disagree.

Early MMORPGS were superior at playing to the genre's strengths, whether by intelligent design or as a result of other factors who can say.

For whatever reasons, some gamers don't get along well with others, ruining the experience for many so devs responded by isolating players to prevent their actions from impacting anyone.

Many positives from doing this of course, but I feel reducing player interaction and the ability to impact others gave us more negative consequences which made the genre into a hollow shell of what it could / should have been. (Or still could be)

Palebane · March 2019

Dungeon Masters used to fill that role in the pnp games. The players filled more of that role in the early text-based rpgs also. Ive always hoped companies would one day hire quality people to DM instead of just writers for NPCs. Seems like a very largely untapped staple of the original multiplayer RPG experience, imo. Sure you had modules (books) that gave you the backround, but stories unfolded as they went along. They were organic and alive almost.

FlyByKnight · March 2019

I'm not a complicated gamer, I like big open world games with great stories where I can on occasion bump into random players and say "hey you wanna group up and do this together?" and they can be like "cool" and we go rock out. I could be losing a battle or struggling and some cool person offers some help and I say "hey thanks!". If I see those players enough time I build a little rapport add to friends list, and keep it up.

To me that's what MMO means. Not necessarily sandbox, not necessarily theme park. Shared experience where the above can happen on various scales and good tools to keep track of in-game relationships and party structures.

Role Playing Game can be interpreted in several ways but from my experience it's always revolved around a story and some kind of overarching narration. Attaching MMO to it shouldn't really change that.

Wizardry · March 2019

Many of the genres have ridiculous stereotypes that seem not a single dev can escape.
mmorpg=yellow marker over npc head
Arpg=faster than light mindless spam killing
moba=very poor minion Ai/fodder
TCG's=board/sell cards
BR=drop zone,free loot everywhere.
There is so much technology out there,so much software,game engines but al ldevs want to sell us is cheap crap with cash shops.They can do a heck of a lot more AND steer away from the same ol same ol designs while still remaining well within the genre.

We can't remove all the dead weight because then the few leftover would have it even easier and sell us even lazier crap games.The final product and state of gaming is a result of a lot of terrible gamers spending and buying anything and everything ,supporting too many bad games that we have sunk deep into the bermuda triangle with little chance of saving the ship.

Why would developers give us any better than a Battle Royale if that is all the money is buying?All they need is one map,a few assets and flag pvp...gg thanks for your patronage.

So i stopped waiting and caring about these crappy studios,i just went ahead and bought a survival game and does a better job at being a rpg than the rpg's do,so good riddance all you crap mmorpg developers.

Amaranthar · March 2019

The thing is, every years brings new young gamers that want easy "give me give me".
But few consider all the gamers that want more but have left over those same years.

There's a monster MMORPG waiting to happen.

Mendel · March 2019

FlyByKnight said:

I'm not a complicated gamer, I like big open world games with great stories where I can on occasion bump into random players and say "hey you wanna group up and do this together?" and they can be like "cool" and we go rock out. I could be losing a battle or struggling and some cool person offers some help and I say "hey thanks!". If I see those players enough time I build a little rapport add to friends list, and keep it up.

To me that's what MMO means. Not necessarily sandbox, not necessarily theme park. Shared experience where the above can happen on various scales and good tools to keep track of in-game relationships and party structures.

Role Playing Game can be interpreted in several ways but from my experience it's always revolved around a story and some kind of overarching narration. Attaching MMO to it shouldn't really change that.

I'm more about Role Playing as acting. I like to give my characters traits outside the games confines and allow these traits to drive how I speak and act in game. Mendel, my first MMORPG character, came from PnP roleplaying games. He was always cold, and wasn't the kind of person to be left alone in a cool room with many expensive chairs but little firewood.

The problem is, games, especially MMORPGs, only give the role player a limited number of tools to accomplish this. Whacking something with a sword is pretty limited for expressing the idea of being hungry. Text chat is generic, and is limited by my typing speed. Voice chat is a bit better, but few use it, not to mention that I don't sound anything like what I envision Mendel to sound like in my head -- a mix of Phil Silvers and Zero Mostel. (For those who don't recognize either, find a copy of "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" and watch it).

There aren't enough emotes to convey non-verbal communication of arm rubbing, blowing in your hands and shivering necessary to show being cold or afraid. There's no concept of chained emotes, and never enough spare keys/buttons to record individual /em commands. Macros like EQ1 had helped, but were limited.

But roleplaying in that manner tends to turn the mostly visual experience of MMORPGs into a slowly typed third rate novel, and too many people don't want to read all that much. So, I don't roleplay as much these days as I would like.

Vermillion_Raventhal · March 2019

FlyByKnight said:

I'm not a complicated gamer, I like big open world games with great stories where I can on occasion bump into random players and say "hey you wanna group up and do this together?" and they can be like "cool" and we go rock out. I could be losing a battle or struggling and some cool person offers some help and I say "hey thanks!". If I see those players enough time I build a little rapport add to friends list, and keep it up.

To me that's what MMO means. Not necessarily sandbox, not necessarily theme park. Shared experience where the above can happen on various scales and good tools to keep track of in-game relationships and party structures.

Role Playing Game can be interpreted in several ways but from my experience it's always revolved around a story and some kind of overarching narration. Attaching MMO to it shouldn't really change that.

Making a game that way doesn't need to be an MMO. There is a difficulty, expense, technical limitations involved in an MMO. You can also emulate this gameplay with shooter.

Hatefull · March 2019

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

You know, plant a few books in the world that details a ritual for power on a certain day. This ritual instead summons a demon and a world crisis scenario. NPCs standing around to be a quest where to everyone should die. Unless it's a ritual to character development.

Really a cool Idea.

kjempff · March 2019

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

When you talk about RPG people think levels, quest and gear. This the staple of RPG games for the most part. You play a character who progresses through ranks and story.

MMORPG are not the same. I think MMORPG is a bad name for what we play. Each person's story can be the role they play. If I played a black smith class and my logins are me running a business and crafting/trading with other players, that is my role. My story. I don't need a story or NPC to tell me or quest to guide me each step.

I always believed that developers should facilitate player's stories not tell them their what their story is through quest. Quest should arise from need, knowledge, curiosity or just random chance. If a developer is telling his story it should be again facilitated through a system.

You know, plant a few books in the world that details a ritual for power on a certain day. This ritual instead summons a demon and a world crisis scenario. NPCs standing around to be a quest where to everyone should die. Unless it's a ritual to character development.

You nailed it.
Now make modern mmo developers understand that by "facilitating" stories you engage players, and with story driven you disengage them. For example that is why Everquest and WoW are fundamentally different games (sure there are other examples too).

FlyByKnight · March 2019

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

FlyByKnight said:

I'm not a complicated gamer, I like big open world games with great stories where I can on occasion bump into random players and say "hey you wanna group up and do this together?" and they can be like "cool" and we go rock out. I could be losing a battle or struggling and some cool person offers some help and I say "hey thanks!". If I see those players enough time I build a little rapport add to friends list, and keep it up.

To me that's what MMO means. Not necessarily sandbox, not necessarily theme park. Shared experience where the above can happen on various scales and good tools to keep track of in-game relationships and party structures.

Role Playing Game can be interpreted in several ways but from my experience it's always revolved around a story and some kind of overarching narration. Attaching MMO to it shouldn't really change that.

Making a game that way doesn't need to be an MMO. There is a difficulty, expense, technical limitations involved in an MMO. You can also emulate this gameplay with shooter.

Can you elaborate? How else would you do this without it being a shared world? I was speaking from my experience personally but that would have to be scaled up for people who want to build social circles.

Vermillion_Raventhal · March 2019

FlyByKnight said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

FlyByKnight said:

I'm not a complicated gamer, I like big open world games with great stories where I can on occasion bump into random players and say "hey you wanna group up and do this together?" and they can be like "cool" and we go rock out. I could be losing a battle or struggling and some cool person offers some help and I say "hey thanks!". If I see those players enough time I build a little rapport add to friends list, and keep it up.

To me that's what MMO means. Not necessarily sandbox, not necessarily theme park. Shared experience where the above can happen on various scales and good tools to keep track of in-game relationships and party structures.

Role Playing Game can be interpreted in several ways but from my experience it's always revolved around a story and some kind of overarching narration. Attaching MMO to it shouldn't really change that.

Making a game that way doesn't need to be an MMO. There is a difficulty, expense, technical limitations involved in an MMO. You can also emulate this gameplay with shooter.

Can you elaborate? How else would you do this without it being a shared world? I was speaking from my experience personally but that would have to be scaled up for people who want to build social circles.

For example Anthem. You can seamlessly log into the open world and there will be players flying around. Missions put you solo to 4 randoms players ot your group. If you put this high fantasy style game you basically would have a themepark without the frills.

Sovrath · March 2019

Amaranthar said:

Sovrath said:

I think it's a bit of both.

I completely agree that it is a "role" that the player plays. Part of how they build their character as well as how they play their character.

I also believe that part of playing that role is the creation and growth of that character.

The big difference is that in a RPG the player character's story is unique in that world (even if it's re-read hundreds of thousand times in other "universes", i.e. individual game worlds.

In an MMORPG, the same basic story is applied to every character, all of the same world, through the level grind quests.

It just seems to be missing something.

Well, that's if you do the quests.

There are many mmorpg's where you don't have to do the quests and can have at least some variation on what is happening to you.

Also, your story is "unique" to you no matter which quests you do in an mmorpg as they are solely "for you."

Most quest givers just acknowledge you the player. They are a single player convention in a multi-player game.

Vermillion_Raventhal · March 2019

Rhoklaw said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

When you talk about RPG people think levels, quest and gear. This the staple of RPG games for the most part. You play a character who progresses through ranks and story.

MMORPG are not the same. I think MMORPG is a bad name for what we play. Each person's story can be the role they play. If I played a black smith class and my logins are me running a business and crafting/trading with other players, that is my role. My story. I don't need a story or NPC to tell me or quest to guide me each step.

I always believed that developers should facilitate player's stories not tell them their what their story is through quest. Quest should arise from need, knowledge, curiosity or just random chance. If a developer is telling his story it should be again facilitated through a system.

You know, plant a few books in the world that details a ritual for power on a certain day. This ritual instead summons a demon and a world crisis scenario. NPCs standing around to be a quest where to everyone should die. Unless it's a ritual to character development.

MMOs can most certainly be MMORPGs as you are role playing your character regardless of the quests. What you are referring to is a sandbox MMORPG which is next to impossible to develop properly so that anyone would even take it seriously. Most quests aside from kill task or fed ex are story driven because it's usually needed to progress a player through the appropriate areas of the game. If someone were to develop a sandbox style MMO where you could just run off in whatever direction doing whatever you wanted, you'd probably soon find a lot of people complaining about it being too difficult because they ran into a pack of mobs that obliterated them.

MMORPG survived before questhubs and directions for everything. Yes players did run into packs of creatures and die. Wasn't just sandboxes. All pre WoW games were like that.

Amaranthar · March 2019

Sovrath said:

Amaranthar said:

Sovrath said:

I think it's a bit of both.

I completely agree that it is a "role" that the player plays. Part of how they build their character as well as how they play their character.

I also believe that part of playing that role is the creation and growth of that character.

The big difference is that in a RPG the player character's story is unique in that world (even if it's re-read hundreds of thousand times in other "universes", i.e. individual game worlds.

In an MMORPG, the same basic story is applied to every character, all of the same world, through the level grind quests.

It just seems to be missing something.

Well, that's if you do the quests.

There are many mmorpg's where you don't have to do the quests and can have at least some variation on what is happening to you.

Also, your story is "unique" to you no matter which quests you do in an mmorpg as they are solely "for you."

Most quest givers just acknowledge you the player. They are a single player convention in a multi-player game.

I admit that I haven't played MMO's for some years now, so let me ask...

Aren't players still going to the same places, fighting the same Bosses, for the same desired loot, and based on the same level range, as per game design?
Or what's different in the quests that makes you think so?

And another question. Are MMO's still made so that playing without doing the quests not only leaves you behind in gear and advancement, but also leaves a lot of prime content design out of your game play?

Kyleran · March 2019

Amaranthar said:

Sovrath said:

Amaranthar said:

Sovrath said:

I think it's a bit of both.

I completely agree that it is a "role" that the player plays. Part of how they build their character as well as how they play their character.

I also believe that part of playing that role is the creation and growth of that character.

The big difference is that in a RPG the player character's story is unique in that world (even if it's re-read hundreds of thousand times in other "universes", i.e. individual game worlds.

In an MMORPG, the same basic story is applied to every character, all of the same world, through the level grind quests.

It just seems to be missing something.

Well, that's if you do the quests.

There are many mmorpg's where you don't have to do the quests and can have at least some variation on what is happening to you.

Also, your story is "unique" to you no matter which quests you do in an mmorpg as they are solely "for you."

Most quest givers just acknowledge you the player. They are a single player convention in a multi-player game.

I admit that I haven't played MMO's for some years now, so let me ask...

Aren't players still going to the same places, fighting the same Bosses, for the same desired loot, and based on the same level range, as per game design?
Or what's different in the quests that makes you think so?

And another question. Are MMO's still made so that playing without doing the quests not only leaves you behind in gear and advancement, but also leaves a lot of prime content design out of your game play?

Most survival style MMOs don't require or at least don't rely heavily on a player to do quests.

Some indie MMORPGs which rely heavily on survival mechanics for content also offer similar.

Albion Online, Life is Feudal, Conan Exiles (?) Legends of Aria, Atlas, and many others out there.

Phaserlight · March 2019

Amaranthar said:

In an MMORPG, the same basic story is applied to every character, all of the same world, through the level grind quests.

Not so.

I've written many quest arcs; some depend on the nationality of the player character, most will also depend on choices they make.

Two characters may end up with drastically different stories presented by the game.

Amaranthar · March 2019

Phaserlight said:

Amaranthar said:

In an MMORPG, the same basic story is applied to every character, all of the same world, through the level grind quests.

Not so.

I've written many quest arcs; some depend on the nationality of the player character, most will also depend on choices they make.

Two characters may end up with drastically different stories presented by the game.

Yeah but you are comparing only 2 characters in that system. Those same 2 characters have the same story with many others, per each and every quest.
Yes, that's an advancement on the general WoW clone style. But it's still pre-designed outcomes and a formula that's predictable, just with a set number of alternate pathways.

Still, congrats on moving it forward.

What I'm looking for is advanced AI, with wandering MOBs (or sub a random encounter type spawn that can take a foothold and grow), with what I call "dungeon/Local AI" (map items that lend AI choices, randomized but weighted) to MOBs as they move in, to set many options of actions that can only be guessed at by a player knowledgeable of that particular type of MOB.

With this system concept, a dungeon can change once it's cleared. Not just the MOBs, but also what the MOBs set up in the dungeon. Same for cave systems, ruins, etc.

So, each "room" type has AI options that MOBs with a foothold can choose to do, and also each doorway/passage, each dais, each corner, etc.
Sort of a point spending thing, weighted by MOB type, and by need (defensive barriers, smithing and other craft areas, etc.
Or nests and eggs chambers and treasure hoards, etc., for that sort of MOB.

Alliance attraction (calling a special spawn) by a MOB type, too.

FlyByKnight · March 2019

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

FlyByKnight said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

FlyByKnight said:

I'm not a complicated gamer, I like big open world games with great stories where I can on occasion bump into random players and say "hey you wanna group up and do this together?" and they can be like "cool" and we go rock out. I could be losing a battle or struggling and some cool person offers some help and I say "hey thanks!". If I see those players enough time I build a little rapport add to friends list, and keep it up.

To me that's what MMO means. Not necessarily sandbox, not necessarily theme park. Shared experience where the above can happen on various scales and good tools to keep track of in-game relationships and party structures.

Role Playing Game can be interpreted in several ways but from my experience it's always revolved around a story and some kind of overarching narration. Attaching MMO to it shouldn't really change that.

Making a game that way doesn't need to be an MMO. There is a difficulty, expense, technical limitations involved in an MMO. You can also emulate this gameplay with shooter.

Can you elaborate? How else would you do this without it being a shared world? I was speaking from my experience personally but that would have to be scaled up for people who want to build social circles.

For example Anthem. You can seamlessly log into the open world and there will be players flying around. Missions put you solo to 4 randoms players ot your group. If you put this high fantasy style game you basically would have a themepark without the frills.

3 other players isn't communal.

Amathe · March 2019

The whole point of RPGs and later MMORPGs was to have a way that you could become a warrior, a wizard, and what have you, and adventure with your friends in a simulation that sparked the imagination and made you feel like you were in a fantasy world as that character. You were playing a role.

But gradually it became more and more about just getting stuff and becoming more powerful. "RPG" is now basically a synonym for a game with player characters that can be improved upon. I attribute the decay of mmorpgs generally to this shallow focus and the loss of the more imaginative aspects of early RPGs.

Vermillion_Raventhal · March 2019

Amathe said:

The whole point of RPGs and later MMORPGs was to have a way that you could become a warrior, a wizard, and what have you, and adventure with your friends in a simulation that sparked the imagination and made you feel like you were in a fantasy world as that character. You were playing a role.

But gradually it became more and more about just getting stuff and becoming more powerful. "RPG" is now basically a synonym for a game with player characters that can be improved upon. I attribute the decay of mmorpgs generally to this shallow focus and the loss of the more imaginative aspects of early RPGs.

Progression is a part of RPG. But MMORPG aren't even purely RPG. MMORPG should be about players and world not story and advancement. MMORPG should be about setting the stage for improv not writing plays for us to act out.

I always looked at awesomely designed World of Warcraft had that is empty. Chewed up by progression. I can never understand the players who cry if l land was reused it would be boring. Then log on and do the same daily's and raids over and over.

Mendel · March 2019

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Amathe said:

The whole point of RPGs and later MMORPGs was to have a way that you could become a warrior, a wizard, and what have you, and adventure with your friends in a simulation that sparked the imagination and made you feel like you were in a fantasy world as that character. You were playing a role.

But gradually it became more and more about just getting stuff and becoming more powerful. "RPG" is now basically a synonym for a game with player characters that can be improved upon. I attribute the decay of mmorpgs generally to this shallow focus and the loss of the more imaginative aspects of early RPGs.

Progression is a part of RPG. But MMORPG aren't even purely RPG. MMORPG should be about players and world not story and advancement. MMORPG should be about setting the stage for improv not writing plays for us to act out.

I always looked at awesomely designed World of Warcraft had that is empty. Chewed up by progression. I can never understand the players who cry if l land was reused it would be boring. Then log on and do the same daily's and raids over and over.

I think @Amathe's point was that progression has become RPG for many people, all other elements of characterizing and customizing our fictional selves was left by the side of the road. Collecting gear and gaining levels was never RPG, it was always about the story. Beating the bad guys, saving the world/city/town/Mrs.Guillicutty's cat, out maneuvering the opponents. Instead gear and levels were the framework over which RPG happened. The means have become the goal.

Vermillion_Raventhal · March 2019

Mendel said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Amathe said:

The whole point of RPGs and later MMORPGs was to have a way that you could become a warrior, a wizard, and what have you, and adventure with your friends in a simulation that sparked the imagination and made you feel like you were in a fantasy world as that character. You were playing a role.

But gradually it became more and more about just getting stuff and becoming more powerful. "RPG" is now basically a synonym for a game with player characters that can be improved upon. I attribute the decay of mmorpgs generally to this shallow focus and the loss of the more imaginative aspects of early RPGs.

Progression is a part of RPG. But MMORPG aren't even purely RPG. MMORPG should be about players and world not story and advancement. MMORPG should be about setting the stage for improv not writing plays for us to act out.

I always looked at awesomely designed World of Warcraft had that is empty. Chewed up by progression. I can never understand the players who cry if l land was reused it would be boring. Then log on and do the same daily's and raids over and over.

I think @Amathe's point was that progression has become RPG for many people, all other elements of characterizing and customizing our fictional selves was left by the side of the road. Collecting gear and gaining levels was never RPG, it was always about the story. Beating the bad guys, saving the world/city/town/Mrs.Guillicutty's cat, out maneuvering the opponents. Instead gear and levels were the framework over which RPG happened. The means have become the goal.

Yeah I get what he was saying and agree.

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RPG has a different meaning for MMORPG

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RPG has a different meaning for MMORPG

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV