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What is RvR based advancement?

QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,587
I saw that it said somewhere that you advance based on how well your realm is doing, not you personally.  I don't really understand what that means, however, and would like an explanation.

At a high enough level, it makes some sense.  If you and some others are trying to capture a keep, you don't advance for killing several opponents in a failed effort.  You advance for actually capturing the keep.  You still advance if your role was purely healing your teammates.  Or purely crafting gear for them.  The goal is to make it so that your incentives are to help your side do well, not to steal kills from your allies or run off and kill enemies in situations where it doesn't matter.

But that leaves two major categories of complications.  First, who in the realm gets credit for what happened?  I can understand giving equal credit to everyone who is actively playing the game.  But does that mean that someone who plays for 15 minutes per day will advance just as fast as someone who plays for six hours per day?  How about people who haven't logged in in a month?  If the entire realm advances at the same rate, what about characters who are created later?  Do they start out with a bunch of advancement, or are they way behind for a while?

Trying to tie it to players being active recently creates other issues.  Is it that the account is active, or the particular character?  What about someone who is logged in but AFK?  Or perhaps auto-running into a wall while AFK?  Or a simple macro to click randomly now and then without actually doing anything?  That seems like it shouldn't help you advance.

If activity for personal advancement is based on time since last login, then you create incentives for people to just log in and out briefly if they weren't going to play that day.  Having to spend 15 minutes doing that on every single alt each day before playing the one that you want to actually play would be especially stupid.

The other major category is, how do you prevent a runaway effect where one realm completely dominates?  I realize that the hope of having three factions is that if one is somewhat stronger than the others, but not as strong as the other two combined, you create incentives for the other two to gang up on the strongest one.  But what if a server is completely dominated by one realm?  Join that realm and you'll advance much faster than if you join the others, in addition to dominating whatever actual combat happens.  That's the nightmare scenario that can ruin a game, and realm-based advancement can make it more likely to happen.

I understand that the game is supposed to be heavy on horizontal progression, not vertical.  The problems above surely aren't nearly as severe as they would be in a game heavy on vertical progression.  But mostly horizontal progression isn't purely horizontal, and horizontal progression isn't no progression.  If they're putting progression into the game at all, it's because they want players to care about it, and players will act accordingly.

Comments

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 2,950
    I'm not entirely certain about CU, but DAoC Realm Advancement was basically PvP results.  Since these games are lead by the same guy, I don't expect it to be much different.

    I like some of the ideas you propose.  Awarding 'bonus' points for taking keeps would be relatively simple -- award points to every character alive, in the vicinity (zone, keep, etc), and in the raid that accomplishes the task.  My guess, there won't be any 'bonus' points for participating in realm accomplishments, at least initially.

    I can't see CU with a 'timed advancement' system, similar to Eve, then the issues you raise would definitely need to be addressed.  I fully expect Realm XP based on the individual participation, with a selection of class-specific and generic 'abilities' purchased with those RXP.  Balance (and respec) was an issue with DAoC, and I expect similar issues here.

    DAoC did experience the runaway realm effect.  I don't know if they are building in mechanisms to encourage others to join the other sides.  Something like, if one realm owns all the targets, no one can create a new character for that realm.

    I'm willing for them to surprise me, though.




    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • meddyckmeddyck Member UncommonPosts: 1,268
    It's more of a mix between what you personally did on your character and what was going on in your realm than purely based on your realm's activities.

    You do in fact get rewarded for using skills on enemy players even if they don't die. You probably will get gold based on the number of kills you contributed towards. The amount of gold may be adjusted by a number of factors such as the numbers on each side, realm under/overpopulation, etc.

    Exactly how you will be rewarded for participating in sieges isn't completely clear. Mark Jacobs was in charge of Mythic for many years while players did RvR in DAOC and WAR, so he is well aware of the many pitfalls that come with RvR reward systems. Hopefully he'll figure out a reward system in CU that will allow players to enjoy the game in many different ways and not push people into grinding sieges that they don't really enjoy.
    tweedledumb99

    Camelot Unchained Backer
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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,487
    Fairly certain the OP devoted more thought to the realm reward system than the CSE team has in the past two years.

    Seems most of their focus has been getting thousands of players battling seamlessly, and not much else when it comes to other play systems. 


    TorvalDMKanoHatefull

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,572
    Kyleran said:
    Fairly certain the OP devoted more thought to the realm reward system than the CSE team has in the past two years.

    Seems most of their focus has been getting thousands of players battling seamlessly, and not much else when it comes to other play systems. 


    Let's hope that they have been working the other parts... otherwise, it will be another 18 months*


    *18 month is a registered trademark of CrowdfundRUs and should not be used without the express written permission of said party.


    Kylerantweedledumb99JamesGoblinHatefull

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 18,817
    Kyleran said:
    Fairly certain the OP devoted more thought to the realm reward system than the CSE team has in the past two years.

    Seems most of their focus has been getting thousands of players battling seamlessly, and not much else when it comes to other play systems. 


    I wondered why this hasn't been discussed and hashed over more. It seems like something that could be worked on in parallel to the rest. I figured maybe it's under NDA, but didn't want to be the first to ask because there is a sensitivity to criticism issue with this game.
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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 10,935
    Quizzical has raised some real issues, but in the past these have all had solutions. My real concern is have the past successes and failures in RvR really been looked at, if they have done that it is hard to go wrong. But they may have not as I see games being released and think things like "they don't understand the importance of separate rewards for PvP and PvE, "they don't realise that if you introduce new gameplay your old gameplay may suffer, old gameplay needs to be enabling for new gameplay and should never step on its toes or people simply won't play your old gameplay".

    Mistakes which seem booby basic to me are just made again and again, it does beg the question do they even look at anything other than the current template for a similar game and then copy and paste?

    Hopefully they have thought things through here! :)
    Torvaltweedledumb99

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,587
    Kyleran said:
    Fairly certain the OP devoted more thought to the realm reward system than the CSE team has in the past two years.

    Seems most of their focus has been getting thousands of players battling seamlessly, and not much else when it comes to other play systems. 


    Well aren't you cynical.  I'm sure that they've put a lot more thought into how to reward players than I have.  Putting thought into systems is easy.  Actually implementing them is hard.  That the latter hasn't yet been completed hardly means that they've never thought about it.
    Mendel
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,487
    Quizzical said:
    Kyleran said:
    Fairly certain the OP devoted more thought to the realm reward system than the CSE team has in the past two years.

    Seems most of their focus has been getting thousands of players battling seamlessly, and not much else when it comes to other play systems. 


    Well aren't you cynical.  I'm sure that they've put a lot more thought into how to reward players than I have.  Putting thought into systems is easy.  Actually implementing them is hard.  That the latter hasn't yet been completed hardly means that they've never thought about it.
    If so there's been very little public information or discussion on the subject.

    My guess it is definitely a lower priority concern at present.

    My reply was more tongue in cheek which frequently goes by people it seems.


    Torval

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 10,935
    Kyleran said:
    Quizzical said:
    Kyleran said:
    Fairly certain the OP devoted more thought to the realm reward system than the CSE team has in the past two years.

    Seems most of their focus has been getting thousands of players battling seamlessly, and not much else when it comes to other play systems. 


    Well aren't you cynical.  I'm sure that they've put a lot more thought into how to reward players than I have.  Putting thought into systems is easy.  Actually implementing them is hard.  That the latter hasn't yet been completed hardly means that they've never thought about it.
    If so there's been very little public information or discussion on the subject.

    My guess it is definitely a lower priority concern at present.

    My reply was more tongue in cheek which frequently goes by people it seems.


    You need to put a smiley of some sort on all such posts and even then you can still be expected to be taken dead seriously occasionally. A lot of humour depends on tone and text can be very tone deaf.
    KyleranMendelTorvaltweedledumb99

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 211
    edited March 9
    Kyleran said:
    Fairly certain the OP devoted more thought to the realm reward system than the CSE team has in the past two years.

    Seems most of their focus has been getting thousands of players battling seamlessly, and not much else when it comes to other play systems. 


    I've been a little wary of all the big battle focus too, but I don't think the realm/individ. rewards thing is gonna be that hard based on how they've structured progression generally (track everything everyone does, tie that to progression, which is already in the test client for testers).

    Re: all the focus on big battles, I can see three possibilities:

    1) they want to prove to the investors that their investment was wise (the investors care about long term 10+ year capacities/performance of the engine, even if we as players don't)

    2) After dozens of devs and people saying this couldn't be done, he's proud of his team/studio that they're pulling it off

    3) things are moving slower than expected so he's using big battles (which admittedly are pretty fucking cool to be in <tester) to tide people over.
    meddyckKyleran
  • JamesGoblinJamesGoblin Member RarePosts: 1,239
    I expect CSE to start seriously developing the reward system only in open beta, and to then keep on fine tuning it forever. Many things are still on the level of design documents - you can find a kind of quick summary in CU Wiki, say:

    - Progression System https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Progression_System
    - Daily Report https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Daily_Report
    - Realm News https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Realm_News

    Now, I KNOW you will only use this to ask another 500 questions, but that's all we got :)
    Slapshot1188Torvaltweedledumb99Kyleran
     W...aaagh?
  • meddyckmeddyck Member UncommonPosts: 1,268
    I expect CSE to start seriously developing the reward system only in open beta, and to then keep on fine tuning it forever. Many things are still on the level of design documents - you can find a kind of quick summary in CU Wiki, say:

    - Progression System https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Progression_System
    - Daily Report https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Daily_Report
    - Realm News https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Realm_News

    Now, I KNOW you will only use this to ask another 500 questions, but that's all we got :)
    Waiting until Open Beta to work on the reward system would likely lead to launch being a disaster imho. I hope they move on from testing using scenarios before the end of Beta 1 and that the RvR meta-game including rewards will be tested on and iterated on no later than Beta 2.
    Torvaltweedledumb99

    Camelot Unchained Backer
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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 18,817
    meddyck said:
    I expect CSE to start seriously developing the reward system only in open beta, and to then keep on fine tuning it forever. Many things are still on the level of design documents - you can find a kind of quick summary in CU Wiki, say:

    - Progression System https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Progression_System
    - Daily Report https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Daily_Report
    - Realm News https://camelot.gamepedia.com/Realm_News

    Now, I KNOW you will only use this to ask another 500 questions, but that's all we got :)
    Waiting until Open Beta to work on the reward system would likely lead to launch being a disaster imho. I hope they move on from testing using scenarios before the end of Beta 1 and that the RvR meta-game including rewards will be tested on and iterated on no later than Beta 2.
    They should have a concrete vision for those systems by open beta. They should also have backups and alternatives on the back burner and be open to making changes if what they envision doesn't work out as expected. I agree that waiting for open beta sounds like a recipe for disaster.
    tweedledumb99Kyleran
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