I think folks are confusing the words education and research. That's not even up for a semantics debate.
But helluva OP fork/deviation gents. In a few pages I'm pretty sure we'll somehow be debating if dogs are TRULY mans best friend or if the person who came up with that saying had too much time and peanut butter.
Cant have research without education. .. . Anyway, the article states that Kotick is overpaid based on their criteria. I agree based on their metrics, i'd use different metrics, then again, he did increase profit by almost 300 million from the prior year, so all is good.
If i get some more cash in the future and blizzard stock stays the way it is, ill buy a bunch of it. Because if they break into the mobile market big-time and make bank, that stock will shoot up.
The bold statement is false. It's a fundamentally clear cut distinction (and possibly what is triggering the local LOL bot).
One doesn't need an education to perform research. Research is the chicken, education is the egg.
I'm not even going to back and forth about this. Everyone else can have at it.
I'll be back for the tree falling in the forest portion of the discussion.
Yes, you are correct in that you can do research without education. We kind of do it all the time. But let's be honest dude, my point is obvious, education --> research.
If you don't think it is true, then I guess you expect a country like Liberia (~4.5m population) to produce more peer-reviewed research journal articles than a similar sized country like Finland (~5.5m population).
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Going after athletes for "bouncing a ball" and getting paid, while minimizing their physical talents in comparison to normal folks who "wish they could", AND calling them racist for giving back "minutely" to their respective communities but absolutely ignoring the BILLIONAIRES who own the teams and the stadiums and overcharge you plebs for beer and hot dogs.
Sounds about white. This thread is paying dividend. Keep it going.
lol huh? the topic was overpaid employees, its a valid comparison. Its kind of bizarre you somehow will validate the value of someone physical talent over the common man but ignore "mental" talents which as a matter of fact are also a manifestation of your physical talents as the brain is a physical organic organ no different than muscle twitch. Even more odd is that was my entire point the main issue in lopsided income in an economic environment like the USA is Talent and the supply and demand of it. Its why lebron gets 50 million to play ball and i get nothing, its why taylor swift makes 50 million to make music and I make nothing, and its why this kotek fellow makes 28 million to run blizzard and I get nothing. They all have more talent in their respective areas and that talent is so exceptional and rare it commands such a value. Its simply delusional to be in denial that a top CEO doesnt have a special talent that is rare and thus commands such a price.
Owners of companies is an entire separate topic imho. Billionaires give back to communities as well... and ya I think your racist when you chose to only help people of a certain color skin its pretty much the definition of racism.
I can't even begin to scratch the surface of your Mark Twain Adventure Novel amount of posts. Impressive in itself, if it wasn't just pure nonsense. I feel as though you are @Gdemami's slightly more educated but less edgy doppelganger.
Your definition of racism is absolutely scary, edging on being racist in itself. What Lebron is doing is not racist, he is helping the under privileged in a downtrodden neighborhood. He is helping an area that gets little help or assistance. He is recognizing a problem that he himself personal connects to.
No matter if he gives 10% of his total value or 3% or 1% he is still giving. 1% of something is better than nothing. Is he living a glorified life? Absolutely and his talent is what got him that wealth.
You claim he just "bounces balls" as if what he does anyone can do. If that was true there wouldn't be a Lebron, he is known as one of the best because he is one of the best on the court.
You claim sports has zero risk. I don't know about you but being paralyzed would be devastating. No matter if I have the money to "take care of it" my life has completely changed. As an athlete not being able to no longer be an athlete is life shattering. The risk of bodily injure is very real. Lumberjacks are high risk as well, a different industry entirely and a different risk factor. They get paid more than the store/clerk, the teacher, etc. It actually explains perfectly risk vs. pay.
Next you will tell me the surgeon has no risk. How about the risk of a losing a life or damaging one? It's a high paying career because it takes precision and you have someone's well being in your hands.
It is also clearly noted you care little about the education system. Teachers are doing wonderful things for our generations of children. I've seen so much more care and understanding in my daughter's journey through the school system then I ever got.
The days of shame culture is over, the Millennials came in and shook things up. It's all about respecting people, their time and their talent. "I'm here to make your company successful and in doing so you must respect me and pay me what I'm worth." That's the Millennial message and that's the changes that are taking effect in the workforce. Dignity culture is changing the workforce. I know this because not only do I preach it, I live it and I profit from it as giant corporations come to us and say "fix us".
You can be mad about how much person X makes all you want. In the end you didn't apply yourself, you didn't find your talent, you didn't have the go get em attitude. Your wealth and your actions is on yourself and what you did with your time and how you choose to spend it. You rather spend your time complaining what you don't have instead of what you do have.
You got a lot of support for that post, maybe for defending Lebron, but overall it sounds like you support athletes and CEOs making ridiculous amounts of money. And that just giving something back, no matter how small of a percentage is good enough. What about if it's the optimal amount for the best tax return? I haven't heard of anyone on this earth that deserves 100 times the compensation for what they do. Never mind the 300+ times we are seeing here. The ones that come close usually do it for free. Apparently, the trait most likely to make you a good CEO is psychopathy. I don't know what more needs to be said.
Who are you or anyone else to say what someone deserves to be paid?
No one except a very small percentage of population has any idea what it takes to be a CEO or in those general ranks...none...zip.
But if that's true, who are you to say I'm wrong?
I can't imagine there is anyone who has ever worked in a corporate environment that still believes CEOs have some special insight or skill. Generally speaking of course. There are very few brilliant ones out there, but they are surprisingly not the ones asking for ridiculous paychecks.
Who are you or anyone else to say what someone deserves to be paid?
No one except a very small percentage of population has any idea what it takes to be a CEO or in those general ranks...none...zip.
But if that's true, who are you to say I'm wrong?
I can't imagine there is anyone who has ever worked in a corporate environment that still believes CEOs have some special insight or skill. Generally speaking of course. There are very few brilliant ones out there, but they are surprisingly not the ones asking for ridiculous paychecks.
I'm going to disagree with esc-joconnor.
Read some of the other responses in this thread. They kind of explain how capitalism works, and it shows you, how the math works that leads to CEO salaries being that high.
Pro-tip: If you are the main decision maker in a company that netted 7.6 billion in 2019 (up 25% from 2018) . . . essentially, that person was potentially most responsible for that 25% increase, how much should they get paid? [This is the example of the NBA by the way)
If you made your boss (or shareholders) 1.8 billion dollars, perhaps, you know, they may be worth it. You need to grasp that when you start dealing with revenues that are 11 or 12 figures that paying the top decision maker 7 or 8 figures is actually pocket change.
In reference to CEO's having special insight or skill, I think they have special skills and work ethic to move that high up in a company but I think the other way to think about it, is you want the best person to take the reins of a company with 20 billion revenue because IF they do well and they grow the company to 21 billion, they just made the company 1 billion. With that in mind, if the best person costs 3 million per year or 30 million per year, when you make 10+billion revenue a year, it kind of doesn't matter. 3 mil vs 30 mil is pocket change, hence, to get the best, you just pay someone a ton of money to get who you think is the best.
Would you hire a good seasoned CEO for 5 million of a 5 billion dollar a year revenue company or let's say, Elon Musk was like, can i be your CEO for 100 million? . . . I'd gladly pay Elon Musk 100 million a year to be the CEO of my 5 billion dollar revenue company. Here's the rub, when you make revenues of 5 billion a year . . . 5 million or 100 million is not a big deal (im assuming profit is very good in this situation of course).
The main problem with your thought process esc-Joconnor is you're judging a CEO by an employee's thinking, you need to look at it with an employer's thinking.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
You know shit is getting out of hand when I'm agreeing with lol_bot on an lol.
Some of you folks (maybe me too) need to take a step back, maybe 2 or 3 and really really think about what you're saying/implying instead of trying to win an argument (in your mind at least).
So I'll start.
I don't have a problem with executives of companies making 1 bazillion dollars a year. My philosophical issues are:
The ratio in disparity between the worker and high level executive is growing damn near exponentially, it's almost parody now. If a company is that successful and cost of living is going up why aren't the employees enjoying the success as well?
When a corporation/board decides to cut corners, the workers, their bonuses, healthcare benefits, and salaries are the ones that get butchered in the process. Well wait a minute. If they did their job to the letter why are they losing their livelihood and the alleged geniuses (NOT) getting paid 10:1 can't take a pay cut instead?
Off topic and not for discussion here; at what point does a country stop allowing an entity (that uses it's resources, laws, and military for protection) to become more financially powerful than it? If you want to be a trillionaire while trimming the people and country around you better buy your own country and a f#$%ing army and some nukes while you're at.
All this other foolery about overstating the importance of farming and teaching as professions or talking shit about professional athletes (while lining the pockets of the team owners) have zero to do with the salary ratio.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
You know shit is getting out of hand when I'm agreeing with lol_bot on an lol.
Some of you folks (maybe me too) need to take a step back, maybe 2 or 3 and really really think about what you're saying/implying instead of trying to win an argument (in your mind at least).
So I'll start.
I don't have a problem with executives of companies making 1 bazillion dollars a year. My philosophical issues are:
The ratio in disparity between the worker and high level executive is growing damn near exponentially, it's almost parody now. If a company is that successful and cost of living is going up why aren't the employees enjoying the success as well?
When a corporation/board decides to cut corners, the workers, their bonuses, healthcare benefits, and salaries are the ones that get butchered in the process. Well wait a minute. If they did their job to the letter why are they losing their livelihood and the alleged geniuses (NOT) getting paid 10:1 can't take a pay cut instead?
Off topic and not for discussion here; at what point does a country stop allowing an entity (that uses it's resources, laws, and military for protection) to become more financially powerful than it? If you want to be a trillionaire while trimming the people and country around you better buy your own country and a f#$%ing army and some nukes while you're at.
All this other foolery about overstating the importance of farming and teaching as professions or talking shit about professional athletes (while lining the pockets of the team owners) have zero to do with the salary ratio.
I think most people aren’t offended by these high salaries but by the unequal distribution of wealth. There isn’t an infinite amount of money, you can’t keep printing it until everbody has enough without some very negative consequences.
So for every self made millionaire there are 5000 people protesting on the streets because their 40 hour job pays so little they can’t afford basic necessities.
Popular phrases like ‘go get an education’ or ‘work harder’ are simply excuses by those fortunate to excuses the state of the unfortunate. Many simply don’t have the brains or oppertunity to do so. And when these goals for the so-called weak are created by the powerful you end up in a situation where the powerful prey on the weak, a simply case of exploitation. Just look at working conditions at Amazon for their order pickers for instance, this is exactly what is happening.
The whole selfmade millionaire, rags to riches story is a simple fairy tale to keep the masses struggling, using that 0.0001% of highly succesful people as an example. And then spit on a proper minimum wage...
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I think most people aren’t offended by these high salaries but by the unequal distribution of wealth. There isn’t an infinite amount of money, you can’t keep printing it until everbody has enough without some very negative consequences.
So for every self made millionaire there are 5000 people protesting on the streets because their 40 hour job pays so little they can’t afford basic necessities.
Popular phrases like ‘go get an education’ or ‘work harder’ are simply excuses by those fortunate to excuses the state of the unfortunate. Many simply don’t have the brains or oppertunity to do so. And when these goals for the so-called weak are created by the powerful you end up in a situation where the powerful prey on the weak, a simply case of exploitation. Just look at working conditions at Amazon for their order pickers for instance, this is exactly what is happening.
The whole selfmade millionaire, rags to riches story is a simple fairy tale to keep the masses struggling, using that 0.0001% of highly succesful people as an example. And then spit on a proper minimum wage...
- The amazon working condition is sad, unfortunate, and something that shouldn't happen. I think the workers need to be treated better and that corporate tax threshold should have been different from a 35% to 21% flat fee in the US. I think that the tax rate should be X (whatever %) and then 1% of the total revenue should be split among all employees in a corporation instead of going to uncle sam. So the total tax on a corporation is X+1% where X is between (21% and 35%). It is also lame when you make 11 billion in profit and you treat packing workers like crap. (Note: I don't think CEO salary should be docked to workers, I think revenue should be siphoned to workers)
- I don't think the self-made millionaire, rags to story is a fairy tale. I think it is just normal human culture to point out successes and to give people hope, I just think people use it as motivation. It is also possible in capitalistic society for this to happen. I do think minimum wage should be higher and gov't should find ways to reduce cost of living. America is slowly spiraling out of control with the increasing distribution gap in wealth, a large part of it is due to the rich taking advantage of things, but also remember, the rich also sign into laws ways to redistribute that wealth, but a portion of the distribution gap is also caused by the poor. (many reasons, too long to discuss, pm me for my reasoning)
- Yes, the powerful prey on the weak, it is unfortunate, but human nature as well. One food for thought is that some (not all) people in places like America (not generalizing to the rest of the world) choose (knowingly or not for numerous factors) to live a life of poverty by their decision making. Some in America choose to live a life solely dependent on the welfare system and know how to exploit it. Regardless of what they do, they will still be poor, then again some can exploit it so well that they can live a middle class life and never work a day in their life.
Overall, I agree with most of your points in general but wanted to add caveats and perspective to it from someone who lives in America. My main point is, it takes two to tango, not all problems 100% are caused by the ultra rich and 1%.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
You know shit is getting out of hand when I'm agreeing with lol_bot on an lol.
Some of you folks (maybe me too) need to take a step back, maybe 2 or 3 and really really think about what you're saying/implying instead of trying to win an argument (in your mind at least).
So I'll start.
I don't have a problem with executives of companies making 1 bazillion dollars a year. My philosophical issues are:
The ratio in disparity between the worker and high level executive is growing damn near exponentially, it's almost parody now. If a company is that successful and cost of living is going up why aren't the employees enjoying the success as well?
When a corporation/board decides to cut corners, the workers, their bonuses, healthcare benefits, and salaries are the ones that get butchered in the process. Well wait a minute. If they did their job to the letter why are they losing their livelihood and the alleged geniuses (NOT) getting paid 10:1 can't take a pay cut instead?
Off topic and not for discussion here; at what point does a country stop allowing an entity (that uses it's resources, laws, and military for protection) to become more financially powerful than it? If you want to be a trillionaire while trimming the people and country around you better buy your own country and a f#$%ing army and some nukes while you're at.
All this other foolery about overstating the importance of farming and teaching as professions or talking shit about professional athletes (while lining the pockets of the team owners) have zero to do with the salary ratio.
I think most people aren’t offended by these high salaries but by the unequal distribution of wealth. There isn’t an infinite amount of money, you can’t keep printing it until everbody has enough without some very negative consequences.
So for every self made millionaire there are 5000 people protesting on the streets because their 40 hour job pays so little they can’t afford basic necessities.
Popular phrases like ‘go get an education’ or ‘work harder’ are simply excuses by those fortunate to excuses the state of the unfortunate. Many simply don’t have the brains or oppertunity to do so. And when these goals for the so-called weak are created by the powerful you end up in a situation where the powerful prey on the weak, a simply case of exploitation. Just look at working conditions at Amazon for their order pickers for instance, this is exactly what is happening.
The whole selfmade millionaire, rags to riches story is a simple fairy tale to keep the masses struggling, using that 0.0001% of highly succesful people as an example. And then spit on a proper minimum wage...
/Cheers, Lahnmir
There's scientific data that supports your assertions, at least here in the U.S.A.. The country has lost focus on its meritocracy, and the idea of the American Dream has become not much more than a "fairy tale." Additionally, I've linked before psychological studies that show Americans tend to overestimate how much of a meritocracy the country truly is- the unsung dangers of inspirational videos and speakers, to be frank.
No, just getting up earlier or staying up later than the competition won't necessitate your success relative to said competition. Because it's not that simple, contrary to what aforementioned motivational speakers would have you believe.
And no, being a CEO doesn't mean you have some mysterious skill akin to LeBron James or other athletes- do we really think Facebook's booming success has been chiefly because of it's CEO's ultra savvy skills and experience? The kid who had zero experience before the rise of high-speed internet ubiquity throughout the U.S. and the world thrust an idea he and a college buddy had into a cornerstone of modern society? What, exactly, did that have to do with him being the CEO? It's almost as if, many times, circumstance plays just as large as role as "outworking your competition" does.
I think most people aren’t offended by these high salaries but by the unequal distribution of wealth. There isn’t an infinite amount of money, you can’t keep printing it until everbody has enough without some very negative consequences.
So for every self made millionaire there are 5000 people protesting on the streets because their 40 hour job pays so little they can’t afford basic necessities.
Popular phrases like ‘go get an education’ or ‘work harder’ are simply excuses by those fortunate to excuses the state of the unfortunate. Many simply don’t have the brains or oppertunity to do so. And when these goals for the so-called weak are created by the powerful you end up in a situation where the powerful prey on the weak, a simply case of exploitation. Just look at working conditions at Amazon for their order pickers for instance, this is exactly what is happening.
The whole selfmade millionaire, rags to riches story is a simple fairy tale to keep the masses struggling, using that 0.0001% of highly succesful people as an example. And then spit on a proper minimum wage...
- The amazon working condition is sad, unfortunate, and something that shouldn't happen. I think the workers need to be treated better and that corporate tax threshold should have been different from a 35% to 21% flat fee in the US. I think that the tax rate should be X (whatever %) and then 1% of the total revenue should be split among all employees in a corporation instead of going to uncle sam. So the total tax on a corporation is X+1% where X is between (21% and 35%). It is also lame when you make 11 billion in profit and you treat packing workers like crap. (Note: I don't think CEO salary should be docked to workers, I think revenue should be siphoned to workers)
- I don't think the self-made millionaire, rags to story is a fairy tale. I think it is just normal human culture to point out successes and to give people hope, I just think people use it as motivation. It is also possible in capitalistic society for this to happen. I do think minimum wage should be higher and gov't should find ways to reduce cost of living. America is slowly spiraling out of control with the increasing distribution gap in wealth, a large part of it is due to the rich taking advantage of things, but also remember, the rich also sign into laws ways to redistribute that wealth, but a portion of the distribution gap is also caused by the poor. (many reasons, too long to discuss, pm me for my reasoning)
- Yes, the powerful prey on the weak, it is unfortunate, but human nature as well. One food for thought is that some (not all) people in places like America (not generalizing to the rest of the world) choose (knowingly or not for numerous factors) to live a life of poverty by their decision making. Some in America choose to live a life solely dependent on the welfare system and know how to exploit it. Regardless of what they do, they will still be poor, then again some can exploit it so well that they can live a middle class life and never work a day in their life.
Overall, I agree with most of your points in general but wanted to add caveats and perspective to it from someone who lives in America. My main point is, it takes two to tango, not all problems 100% are caused by the ultra rich and 1%.
@Cryomatrix Thanks for the well thought out and considerate response. I agree with many of the nuances you present, I must admit I phrased it rather strongly to stir the pot a bit.
Here too people abuse the system to get money for free, thats not exclusive to the USA, fortunately its a small minority. And although we have some tension as well our gap between rich and poor is much, much smaller. Which is something that has both an up and a downside.
Thanks again mate, much appreciated.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
And no, being a CEO doesn't mean you have some mysterious skill akin to LeBron James or other athletes- do we really think Facebook's booming success has been chiefly because of it's CEO's ultra savvy skills and experience? The kid who had zero experience before the rise of high-speed internet ubiquity throughout the U.S. and the world thrust an idea he and a college buddy had into a cornerstone of modern society? What, exactly, did that have to do with him being the CEO? It's almost as if, many times, circumstance plays just as large as role as "outworking your competition" does.
Funny, that.
I was arguing with my brother (who didn't agree that CEO's should be paid as much) and he brought up Zuckerberg as an example of a CEO who did nothing special.
In reference to Zuckerberg, we know the vast reason for his billions was mainly (not all) a function of timing and circumstances. But I do give him some credit, his design was easy to use and he must have done a few things right to get it to explode, hell, MySpace came out first and he crushed it. He was accepted into Harvard, not that it means he's super duper smart, but you have to have some natural ability.
But many things in life are about timing but i believe in this phrase:
“I’m a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it.“ – Thomas Jefferson
Extra stuff not related to quote: My bro basically thinks that CEO's do similar things and for the most part they are interchangeable except for a few (like Musk). He says they all try similar tricks of the trade.
I can somewhat see his point, but if you look at professional athletes, about 80% of them will be within a standard deviation of each other and hence over around replacement level. But what he ignores is that even though some professional athletes "suck". When compared to the general population they are the best of the best of the best . . . they just fall short when compared to their peers.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Who are you or anyone else to say what someone deserves to be paid?
No one except a very small percentage of population has any idea what it takes to be a CEO or in those general ranks...none...zip.
But if that's true, who are you to say I'm wrong?
I can't imagine there is anyone who has ever worked in a corporate environment that still believes CEOs have some special insight or skill. Generally speaking of course. There are very few brilliant ones out there, but they are surprisingly not the ones asking for ridiculous paychecks.
I'm going to disagree with esc-joconnor.
Read some of the other responses in this thread. They kind of explain how capitalism works, and it shows you, how the math works that leads to CEO salaries being that high.
Pro-tip: If you are the main decision maker in a company that netted 7.6 billion in 2019 (up 25% from 2018) . . . essentially, that person was potentially most responsible for that 25% increase, how much should they get paid? [This is the example of the NBA by the way)
If you made your boss (or shareholders) 1.8 billion dollars, perhaps, you know, they may be worth it. You need to grasp that when you start dealing with revenues that are 11 or 12 figures that paying the top decision maker 7 or 8 figures is actually pocket change.
In reference to CEO's having special insight or skill, I think they have special skills and work ethic to move that high up in a company but I think the other way to think about it, is you want the best person to take the reins of a company with 20 billion revenue because IF they do well and they grow the company to 21 billion, they just made the company 1 billion. With that in mind, if the best person costs 3 million per year or 30 million per year, when you make 10+billion revenue a year, it kind of doesn't matter. 3 mil vs 30 mil is pocket change, hence, to get the best, you just pay someone a ton of money to get who you think is the best.
Would you hire a good seasoned CEO for 5 million of a 5 billion dollar a year revenue company or let's say, Elon Musk was like, can i be your CEO for 100 million? . . . I'd gladly pay Elon Musk 100 million a year to be the CEO of my 5 billion dollar revenue company. Here's the rub, when you make revenues of 5 billion a year . . . 5 million or 100 million is not a big deal (im assuming profit is very good in this situation of course).
The main problem with your thought process esc-Joconnor is you're judging a CEO by an employee's thinking, you need to look at it with an employer's thinking.
That's fine you disagree with me. If you compare a basketball player to a CEO I can't really talk to you.
The thing is the CEOs didn't make all that money, the company made all that money. The upper management could, and often is not related to that performance at all. As someone who plays games, you are basically saying you support paying morons billions for giving us shitty games.
My problem Cryomatrix, is that I come from an unselfish human perspective. If anyone has an "employee" perspective, its you, because you are drinking the cool-aid and believing that the people who manage these businesses are some kind of geniuses with rare skill. They aren't. To make any company work it takes a lot of different people with different skills. ALL of them made that money. Do the stock holders have enough insight to know whether the CEO made the profits better or worse with their decisions? No, as a whole they don't. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many followers in business.
If COEs were that awesome, they would try to work for failing firms. Imagine the percentage improvement in revenues they could see there! Forget 25%, imagine 200%! But no. All "good" COEs try to get jobs at companies that are already performing well and would continue to perform well if their COE was a sock monkey.
Who are you or anyone else to say what someone deserves to be paid?
No one except a very small percentage of
That's fine you disagree with me. If you compare a basketball player to a CEO I can't really talk to you.
The thing is the CEOs didn't make all that money, the company made all that money. The upper management could, and often is not related to that performance at all. As someone who plays games, you are basically saying you support paying morons billions for giving us shitty games.
My problem Cryomatrix, is that I come from an unselfish human perspective. If anyone has an "employee" perspective, its you, because you are drinking the cool-aid and believing that the people who manage these businesses are some kind of geniuses with rare skill. They aren't. To make any company work it takes a lot of different people with different skills. ALL of them made that money. Do the stock holders have enough insight to know whether the CEO made the profits better or worse with their decisions? No, as a whole they don't. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many followers in business.
If COEs were that awesome, they would try to work for failing firms. Imagine the percentage improvement in revenues they could see there! Forget 25%, imagine 200%! But no. All "good" COEs try to get jobs at companies that are already performing well and would continue to perform well if their COE was a sock monkey.
- There are people that try to take over failing companies all the time, a lot of venture capitalists do it. There was a reality show where this dude did just that.
- i dont think they are geniuses, but many have track records of success. They are distinguished in their fields.
- all workers contribute to the success of the company, but the one individual with the most influence is usually the CEO
- going back to bssketball, im not comparing a basketball player to a CEO, im comparing the fact that revenue is a large reason why CEO's get paid a lot, it is exactly why the NBA players get paid a ton too.
That 7.6 billion i mentioned last post is split 50% with the NBA players. So 30 owners share the same revenue as 360 NBA players. Plus, my basketball example also directly talked about the basketball commissioner . . . A.k.a CEO.
Quick tip: in a capitalist society you are worth what you bring or what people think you can bring in and how easily you are replaceable. It has nothing to with the intrinsic nature of what you do.
Post edited by Cryomatrix on
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Quick tip: in a capitalist society you are worth what you bring or what people think you can bring in and how easily you are replaceable. It has nothing to with the intrinsic nature of what you do.
Know how it is. A different version of might makes right. And basically the cause of pretty much everything that is wrong with the world.
Well, truthfully, a lot of tech advancements were triggered by warfare. But you know, when the US created the Manhatten project (nuclear bomb) they clearly invited the illiterate and uneducated right? I mean, that Einstein guy probably had no education . . . Right.
Metrics of importance is impact on the world. Vaccines and antibiotics and most tech advances have had way more impact on the world than any entertainment.
No one is like thank god for the New England Patriots winning their 6th super bowl (i was very happy about it though) but you know when vaccines came out the folks at that time were super happy.
Fun fact: Richard the Lionheart died by a simple arrow wound to the shoulder that got infected. It would have been a minor injury by today's standards.
Yes, you are correct, certain dictatorial regimes get rid of the educated so they can shovel bullshit and propaganda to the uneducated. It is sad, but even educated people fall to propaganda and bullshit.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
@Gdemami Well, truthfully, a lot of tech advancements were triggered by warfare. But you know, when the US created the Manhatten project (nuclear bomb) they clearly invited the illiterate and uneducated right? I mean, that Einstein guy probably had no education . . . Right.
...still you are not capable to make any point.
See my reply to Hatefull - no warfare desire, no need for atomic bomb, no need for scientists.
Can you actually refute that?
I dunno, soccer matches in some countries often break out into open warfare in the stands, maybe they could use a few good scientists?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Cryomatrix said: It is painfully obvious that teaching is more important than entertainment.
...is it? What are your metrics? Your "feelings"...?
It's pretty obvious whatever education system you were in has completely failed you.
Home schooled in "the collective" I'm guessing.
I have a poor impression of home schooling and I imagine all sorts of things, I'd better not share them. They seem to occupy the same position in my head as the no vaccination upbringing.
Shouldn't people ask why 97% of the share holder approve it? this is a publicly owned company all decision is decided by board of director, and shareholders always get to vote with a ballot. 97% is abnormally high number.
People do ask, and there are answers, I invite you to read the full report for the reasons why.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Shouldn't people ask why 97% of the share holder approve it? this is a publicly owned company all decision is decided by board of director, and shareholders always get to vote with a ballot. 97% is abnormally high number.
People do ask, and there are answers, I invite you to read the full report for the reasons why.
The report also blows the notion outta the water that these CEOs are being paid these amounts because they increase profits, too. That report shows a cross-section of success that doesn't correlate to "moar pay for the richest folks!"
Comments
If you don't think it is true, then I guess you expect a country like Liberia (~4.5m population) to produce more peer-reviewed research journal articles than a similar sized country like Finland (~5.5m population).
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I haven't heard of anyone on this earth that deserves 100 times the compensation for what they do. Never mind the 300+ times we are seeing here. The ones that come close usually do it for free. Apparently, the trait most likely to make you a good CEO is psychopathy. I don't know what more needs to be said.
I can't imagine there is anyone who has ever worked in a corporate environment that still believes CEOs have some special insight or skill. Generally speaking of course. There are very few brilliant ones out there, but they are surprisingly not the ones asking for ridiculous paychecks.
Read some of the other responses in this thread. They kind of explain how capitalism works, and it shows you, how the math works that leads to CEO salaries being that high.
Pro-tip: If you are the main decision maker in a company that netted 7.6 billion in 2019 (up 25% from 2018) . . . essentially, that person was potentially most responsible for that 25% increase, how much should they get paid? [This is the example of the NBA by the way)
If you made your boss (or shareholders) 1.8 billion dollars, perhaps, you know, they may be worth it. You need to grasp that when you start dealing with revenues that are 11 or 12 figures that paying the top decision maker 7 or 8 figures is actually pocket change.
In reference to CEO's having special insight or skill, I think they have special skills and work ethic to move that high up in a company but I think the other way to think about it, is you want the best person to take the reins of a company with 20 billion revenue because IF they do well and they grow the company to 21 billion, they just made the company 1 billion. With that in mind, if the best person costs 3 million per year or 30 million per year, when you make 10+billion revenue a year, it kind of doesn't matter. 3 mil vs 30 mil is pocket change, hence, to get the best, you just pay someone a ton of money to get who you think is the best.
Would you hire a good seasoned CEO for 5 million of a 5 billion dollar a year revenue company or let's say, Elon Musk was like, can i be your CEO for 100 million? . . . I'd gladly pay Elon Musk 100 million a year to be the CEO of my 5 billion dollar revenue company. Here's the rub, when you make revenues of 5 billion a year . . . 5 million or 100 million is not a big deal (im assuming profit is very good in this situation of course).
The main problem with your thought process esc-Joconnor is you're judging a CEO by an employee's thinking, you need to look at it with an employer's thinking.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Some of you folks (maybe me too) need to take a step back, maybe 2 or 3 and really really think about what you're saying/implying instead of trying to win an argument (in your mind at least).
So I'll start.
I don't have a problem with executives of companies making 1 bazillion dollars a year. My philosophical issues are:
- The ratio in disparity between the worker and high level executive is growing damn near exponentially, it's almost parody now. If a company is that successful and cost of living is going up why aren't the employees enjoying the success as well?
- When a corporation/board decides to cut corners, the workers, their bonuses, healthcare benefits, and salaries are the ones that get butchered in the process. Well wait a minute. If they did their job to the letter why are they losing their livelihood and the alleged geniuses (NOT) getting paid 10:1 can't take a pay cut instead?
- Off topic and not for discussion here; at what point does a country stop allowing an entity (that uses it's resources, laws, and military for protection) to become more financially powerful than it? If you want to be a trillionaire while trimming the people and country around you better buy your own country and a f#$%ing army and some nukes while you're at.
All this other foolery about overstating the importance of farming and teaching as professions or talking shit about professional athletes (while lining the pockets of the team owners) have zero to do with the salary ratio.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So for every self made millionaire there are 5000 people protesting on the streets because their 40 hour job pays so little they can’t afford basic necessities.
Popular phrases like ‘go get an education’ or ‘work harder’ are simply excuses by those fortunate to excuses the state of the unfortunate. Many simply don’t have the brains or oppertunity to do so. And when these goals for the so-called weak are created by the powerful you end up in a situation where the powerful prey on the weak, a simply case of exploitation. Just look at working conditions at Amazon for their order pickers for instance, this is exactly what is happening.
The whole selfmade millionaire, rags to riches story is a simple fairy tale to keep the masses struggling, using that 0.0001% of highly succesful people as an example. And then spit on a proper minimum wage...
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I see your points. In no particular order:
- The amazon working condition is sad, unfortunate, and something that shouldn't happen. I think the workers need to be treated better and that corporate tax threshold should have been different from a 35% to 21% flat fee in the US. I think that the tax rate should be X (whatever %) and then 1% of the total revenue should be split among all employees in a corporation instead of going to uncle sam. So the total tax on a corporation is X+1% where X is between (21% and 35%). It is also lame when you make 11 billion in profit and you treat packing workers like crap. (Note: I don't think CEO salary should be docked to workers, I think revenue should be siphoned to workers)
- I don't think the self-made millionaire, rags to story is a fairy tale. I think it is just normal human culture to point out successes and to give people hope, I just think people use it as motivation. It is also possible in capitalistic society for this to happen. I do think minimum wage should be higher and gov't should find ways to reduce cost of living. America is slowly spiraling out of control with the increasing distribution gap in wealth, a large part of it is due to the rich taking advantage of things, but also remember, the rich also sign into laws ways to redistribute that wealth, but a portion of the distribution gap is also caused by the poor. (many reasons, too long to discuss, pm me for my reasoning)
- Yes, the powerful prey on the weak, it is unfortunate, but human nature as well. One food for thought is that some (not all) people in places like America (not generalizing to the rest of the world) choose (knowingly or not for numerous factors) to live a life of poverty by their decision making. Some in America choose to live a life solely dependent on the welfare system and know how to exploit it. Regardless of what they do, they will still be poor, then again some can exploit it so well that they can live a middle class life and never work a day in their life.
Overall, I agree with most of your points in general but wanted to add caveats and perspective to it from someone who lives in America. My main point is, it takes two to tango, not all problems 100% are caused by the ultra rich and 1%.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
No, just getting up earlier or staying up later than the competition won't necessitate your success relative to said competition. Because it's not that simple, contrary to what aforementioned motivational speakers would have you believe.
And no, being a CEO doesn't mean you have some mysterious skill akin to LeBron James or other athletes- do we really think Facebook's booming success has been chiefly because of it's CEO's ultra savvy skills and experience? The kid who had zero experience before the rise of high-speed internet ubiquity throughout the U.S. and the world thrust an idea he and a college buddy had into a cornerstone of modern society? What, exactly, did that have to do with him being the CEO? It's almost as if, many times, circumstance plays just as large as role as "outworking your competition" does.
Funny, that.
Here too people abuse the system to get money for free, thats not exclusive to the USA, fortunately its a small minority. And although we have some tension as well our gap between rich and poor is much, much smaller. Which is something that has both an up and a downside.
Thanks again mate, much appreciated.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
In reference to Zuckerberg, we know the vast reason for his billions was mainly (not all) a function of timing and circumstances. But I do give him some credit, his design was easy to use and he must have done a few things right to get it to explode, hell, MySpace came out first and he crushed it. He was accepted into Harvard, not that it means he's super duper smart, but you have to have some natural ability.
But many things in life are about timing but i believe in this phrase:
Extra stuff not related to quote:
My bro basically thinks that CEO's do similar things and for the most part they are interchangeable except for a few (like Musk). He says they all try similar tricks of the trade.
I can somewhat see his point, but if you look at professional athletes, about 80% of them will be within a standard deviation of each other and hence over around replacement level. But what he ignores is that even though some professional athletes "suck". When compared to the general population they are the best of the best of the best . . . they just fall short when compared to their peers.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
The thing is the CEOs didn't make all that money, the company made all that money. The upper management could, and often is not related to that performance at all. As someone who plays games, you are basically saying you support paying morons billions for giving us shitty games.
My problem Cryomatrix, is that I come from an unselfish human perspective. If anyone has an "employee" perspective, its you, because you are drinking the cool-aid and believing that the people who manage these businesses are some kind of geniuses with rare skill. They aren't. To make any company work it takes a lot of different people with different skills. ALL of them made that money. Do the stock holders have enough insight to know whether the CEO made the profits better or worse with their decisions? No, as a whole they don't. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many followers in business.
If COEs were that awesome, they would try to work for failing firms. Imagine the percentage improvement in revenues they could see there! Forget 25%, imagine 200%! But no. All "good" COEs try to get jobs at companies that are already performing well and would continue to perform well if their COE was a sock monkey.
- i dont think they are geniuses, but many have track records of success. They are distinguished in their fields.
- all workers contribute to the success of the company, but the one individual with the most influence is usually the CEO
- going back to bssketball, im not comparing a basketball player to a CEO, im comparing the fact that revenue is a large reason why CEO's get paid a lot, it is exactly why the NBA players get paid a ton too.
That 7.6 billion i mentioned last post is split 50% with the NBA players. So 30 owners share the same revenue as 360 NBA players. Plus, my basketball example also directly talked about the basketball commissioner . . . A.k.a CEO.
Quick tip: in a capitalist society you are worth what you bring or what people think you can bring in and how easily you are replaceable. It has nothing to with the intrinsic nature of what you do.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
mmorpg junkie since 1999
https://www.asyousow.org/report/the-100-most-overpaid-ceos-2019#appendix-a-2019
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon