What is the NDA?

Quizzical · February 2019

I know what an NDA is in principle. Rather, I want to know the details of what it means for this particular game.

My understanding is that the game is currently in closed beta 1, and still officially under NDA. However, anyone who wants to can pay $60 to get access to the beta and see whatever they want of the game. When it moves to beta 2, it will take a cheaper access package so you'll be able to buy access for $35; I'm not sure if the NDA will be removed before, after, or at the same time as the official move to beta 2. So in that sense, it's not a super strict NDA, and if there were any really juicy details, they'd surely have already leaked out.

Does the NDA for this game just mean that you can buy access, but have to agree not to say very much about the game outside of official channels only visible by the developers or others who have bought access? Obviously, it's not a complete ban on talking about the game; quoting or pointing to what the developers have said publicly is allowed under just about any NDA. But rather, is it just a restriction on giving out any information about the game that the developers haven't released publicly?

I've also seen people say that the developers have been really transparent. Usually I don't think of "game is under NDA" as being synonymous or even compatible with being transparent. Does that basically mean that the developers are transparent about telling the game's backers what is going on, but it's still under NDA so that they're not transparent with telling the general public so many details?

Tamanous · February 2019

https://camelotunchained.com/v3/forumfaq/#faq1

What is an NDA (Non -disclosure agreement)?

An NDA is an agreement between you and CSE that says you will not share information that is in the forums publically outside of the forums themselves, take screen captures, pictures of the game or talk about the game’s development (subject to the specific limitations of the NDA itself) or livestream the game to share publicly without our permission (C.U.B.E. is an exception to this). You can read more about our existing privacy agreement and backer agreement here (https://store.camelotunchained.com/tandc.html) or read about it when you log into the game and agree to the EUALA.

Right now Camelot Unchained IS under NDA, read below:

Thus, NDA means

No re-streaming (or streaming) content without express, written permission by CSE
No posting information about what you are seeing except in the appropriate CSE forum. Some information shared and discussed in certain forums, such as IT and Alpha, need to stay in the forums for those tiers.
No screen-caps of the gameplay anywhere except in the permissible CSE forum. (Some sections are restricted to Alpha, and IT)

Mendel · February 2019

Quizzical said:

I know what an NDA is in principle. Rather, I want to know the details of what it means for this particular game.

My understanding is that the game is currently in closed beta 1, and still officially under NDA. However, anyone who wants to can pay $60 to get access to the beta and see whatever they want of the game. When it moves to beta 2, it will take a cheaper access package so you'll be able to buy access for $35; I'm not sure if the NDA will be removed before, after, or at the same time as the official move to beta 2. So in that sense, it's not a super strict NDA, and if there were any really juicy details, they'd surely have already leaked out.

Does the NDA for this game just mean that you can buy access, but have to agree not to say very much about the game outside of official channels only visible by the developers or others who have bought access? Obviously, it's not a complete ban on talking about the game; quoting or pointing to what the developers have said publicly is allowed under just about any NDA. But rather, is it just a restriction on giving out any information about the game that the developers haven't released publicly?

I've also seen people say that the developers have been really transparent. Usually I don't think of "game is under NDA" as being synonymous or even compatible with being transparent. Does that basically mean that the developers are transparent about telling the game's backers what is going on, but it's still under NDA so that they're not transparent with telling the general public so many details?

I agree, especially with the idea of transparent development and an NDA being incompatible. An NDA is to protect a company's ideas from being poached by competing companies. Realistically, MMORPGs take so long to develop, that only a very incompetent developer would worry about a competitor beating them to market with ideas they created. When was the last MMORPG that actually brought any new, innovative ideas to the table? It wouldn't be difficult for anyone here to design a new MMORPG (building it is another matter).

So, what is the NDA protecting for a game? My guess. The developers don't want reviews of pre-released games from becoming widely known. Pretty much, they don't want sites like this from educating the customer base. It is so much easier to sell to an uninformed customer.

Slapshot1188 · February 2019

Mendel said:

Quizzical said:

I know what an NDA is in principle. Rather, I want to know the details of what it means for this particular game.

My understanding is that the game is currently in closed beta 1, and still officially under NDA. However, anyone who wants to can pay $60 to get access to the beta and see whatever they want of the game. When it moves to beta 2, it will take a cheaper access package so you'll be able to buy access for $35; I'm not sure if the NDA will be removed before, after, or at the same time as the official move to beta 2. So in that sense, it's not a super strict NDA, and if there were any really juicy details, they'd surely have already leaked out.

Does the NDA for this game just mean that you can buy access, but have to agree not to say very much about the game outside of official channels only visible by the developers or others who have bought access? Obviously, it's not a complete ban on talking about the game; quoting or pointing to what the developers have said publicly is allowed under just about any NDA. But rather, is it just a restriction on giving out any information about the game that the developers haven't released publicly?

I've also seen people say that the developers have been really transparent. Usually I don't think of "game is under NDA" as being synonymous or even compatible with being transparent. Does that basically mean that the developers are transparent about telling the game's backers what is going on, but it's still under NDA so that they're not transparent with telling the general public so many details?

I agree, especially with the idea of transparent development and an NDA being incompatible. An NDA is to protect a company's ideas from being poached by competing companies. Realistically, MMORPGs take so long to develop, that only a very incompetent developer would worry about a competitor beating them to market with ideas they created. When was the last MMORPG that actually brought any new, innovative ideas to the table? It wouldn't be difficult for anyone here to design a new MMORPG (building it is another matter).

So, what is the NDA protecting for a game? My guess. The developers don't want reviews of pre-released games from becoming widely known. Pretty much, they don't want sites like this from educating the customer base. It is so much easier to sell to an uninformed customer.

There is some truth to that... BUT.. keep in mind that they do offer refunds. So I think they do not want parody videos circulating while they are in Alpha/Beta/whatever they are in, but they also aren't really selling it yet either. When was the last time you saw a Camelot Unchained ad?

I think the "transparent development" is really related to the idea that for $60 (less if you Kickstarted) you can actually get in game and see what it looks like. Some other games have tiers of $10,000 and those folks haven't been in the game even though it's been years past the ETA.

Now my understanding is that the NDA will drop when they start to advertise. If that doesn't happen or if they cancel the refund policy but keep the NDA then I would be more worried.

tweedledumb99 · February 2019

Mendel said:

Quizzical said:

I know what an NDA is in principle. Rather, I want to know the details of what it means for this particular game.

My understanding is that the game is currently in closed beta 1, and still officially under NDA. However, anyone who wants to can pay $60 to get access to the beta and see whatever they want of the game. When it moves to beta 2, it will take a cheaper access package so you'll be able to buy access for $35; I'm not sure if the NDA will be removed before, after, or at the same time as the official move to beta 2. So in that sense, it's not a super strict NDA, and if there were any really juicy details, they'd surely have already leaked out.

Does the NDA for this game just mean that you can buy access, but have to agree not to say very much about the game outside of official channels only visible by the developers or others who have bought access? Obviously, it's not a complete ban on talking about the game; quoting or pointing to what the developers have said publicly is allowed under just about any NDA. But rather, is it just a restriction on giving out any information about the game that the developers haven't released publicly?

I've also seen people say that the developers have been really transparent. Usually I don't think of "game is under NDA" as being synonymous or even compatible with being transparent. Does that basically mean that the developers are transparent about telling the game's backers what is going on, but it's still under NDA so that they're not transparent with telling the general public so many details?

I agree, especially with the idea of transparent development and an NDA being incompatible. An NDA is to protect a company's ideas from being poached by competing companies. Realistically, MMORPGs take so long to develop, that only a very incompetent developer would worry about a competitor beating them to market with ideas they created. When was the last MMORPG that actually brought any new, innovative ideas to the table? It wouldn't be difficult for anyone here to design a new MMORPG (building it is another matter).

So, what is the NDA protecting for a game? My guess. The developers don't want reviews of pre-released games from becoming widely known. Pretty much, they don't want sites like this from educating the customer base. It is so much easier to sell to an uninformed customer.

- they're not doing early access, they're going from Beta 1 > 2 >3 > open beta > launch.

- they're so far away from launching that anyone "reviewing" the game would be a nincompoop or doing a review maliciously.

- yes, stealing ideas and implementations of tech is a problem, for all devs worth their salt and not just this one.

- they're gonna drop the NDA when they have enough of a game, with enough enjoyment factor, that people streaming it will help the game at launch, as opposed to hurt it.

Quizzical · February 2019

I'm not attacking the ethics of having an NDA. The developers can release information on their game whenever they want to and aren't obligated to do so before they're ready. They don't want someone looking into the game five years from now to be scared off by archived content of people blasting the state of the game in beta over things that have long since been fixed.

I am saying that I think it's weird to have an NDA that absolutely anyone can buy their way into for $60. If stealing ideas were the concern, that would offer basically zero protection against it. Though really, no one steals game ideas, at least outside of making knock-offs of already launched games that are wildly popular. All real game developers (and most of the armchair wanna-bes) have more ideas of their own than they can implement, anyway.

Nor does an NDA assuage any worries about ending up as the next Adam Osbourne. The company has no previous product that they own that hype about Camelot Unchained will draw people away from.

tweedledumb99 · February 2019

Quizzical said:

I'm not attacking the ethics of having an NDA. The developers can release information on their game whenever they want to and aren't obligated to do so before they're ready. They don't want someone looking into the game five years from now to be scared off by archived content of people blasting the state of the game in beta over things that have long since been fixed.

I am saying that I think it's weird to have an NDA that absolutely anyone can buy their way into for $60. If stealing ideas were the concern, that would offer basically zero protection against it. Though really, no one steals game ideas, at least outside of making knock-offs of already launched games that are wildly popular. All real game developers (and most of the armchair wanna-bes) have more ideas of their own than they can implement, anyway.

Nor does an NDA assuage any worries about ending up as the next Adam Osbourne. The company has no previous product that they own that hype about Camelot Unchained will draw people away from.

That's a good point re: stealing ideas, so probably not that effective for stopping idea theft.

My guess is it's to draw a line and say "before this line, we're in earlier-development and don't want public criticism of our game's inner workings; we offer refunds, and have an NDA to limit public exposure of the game. And AFTER this line, you can stream it, we're open to more criticism, and refunds are turned off; you know what you get, so only back if you want in on what you're seeing."

Then after that comes launch.

Crowfall devs get all kinds of stupid criticism thrown at them which basically boils down to "your in-development game is bad because it's still being developed" which completely fucking baffles me that people are that dense, I kind of hope they're just trolling.

I can understand why maybe CSE wants less of that, though ArtCraft seems to be dealing with it well as far as I can tell.

Tamanous · February 2019

Damn it's nice to see these indie companies snatching up some of these recent layoffs. CU's development is going to pick up nicely this year, and I expect the NDA be removed later this year.

That should align with having the core classes in place in a mid Beta phase, all major systems in place along with siege combat being basically done and all the new animations in place. This should allow some flashy videos to promote the game.

Mark mentioned hope that the game still has a small chance to release this year. Hopefully this also means a reduced chance of major delays into 2020. I still feel that CU will release before Pantheon, but both are entering the "fun" part of development where we get to see the worlds developed and the games get "big".

tweedledumb99 · February 2019

Tamanous said:

Damn it's nice to see these indie companies snatching up some of these recent layoffs. CU's development is going to pick up nicely this year, and I expect the NDA be removed later this year.

That should align with having the core classes in place in a mid Beta phase, all major systems in place along with siege combat being basically done and all the new animations in place. This should allow some flashy videos to promote the game.

Mark mentioned hope that the game still has a small chance to release this year. Hopefully this also means a reduced chance of major delays into 2020. I still feel that CU will release before Pantheon, but both are entering the "fun" part of development where we get to see the worlds developed and the games get "big".

Goodness I hope so lol.

meddyck · February 2019

Tamanous said:

Damn it's nice to see these indie companies snatching up some of these recent layoffs. CU's development is going to pick up nicely this year, and I expect the NDA be removed later this year.

That should align with having the core classes in place in a mid Beta phase, all major systems in place along with siege combat being basically done and all the new animations in place. This should allow some flashy videos to promote the game.

Mark mentioned hope that the game still has a small chance to release this year. Hopefully this also means a reduced chance of major delays into 2020. I still feel that CU will release before Pantheon, but both are entering the "fun" part of development where we get to see the worlds developed and the games get "big".

Launching this year is a bad joke that I wish Mark would stop making. It'll be lucky to get into Beta 2 by year's end IMHO. I'm not sure I will even count what it is in now as Beta 1 until ability building returns.

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What is an NDA (Non -disclosure agreement)?

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