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What side of MMORPG design do you stand on?

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  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,504
    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression.

    Not particular about the type of progression , all of it is fine with me.

    2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels.

    Aagin no preference. I like making progress and any metric measuring that works.

    3. Simulation vs. game first.
    Not sure what you mean by this do you mean a life simulator. I like games like Fallen Earth where you have to feed the horse and gas your car. I love the systems in Black Desert and seeing my workers actually gathering stuff.

    4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty.
    Harsh Death Penalty

    5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play.
    Combination.

    6. Player housing or no player housing. 
    Player housing

    7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP.
    Restricted PvP

    8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting.
    No looting for PvP and full drop of loot and gear in death in PvE like Everquest.

    9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty. 
    Hard

    10. Questing vs. MOB grinding.
    Both

    11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear.
    Crafting but better looking gear from PvE drops.

    12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement.
    Combination

    13. themepark vs. sandbox.
    Combination

    14. End game vs. no end game.
    No preference

    15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop.
    Cosmetic

    16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P.
    P2P

    image
  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,385
    edited February 2019
    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression.

    2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels.

    3. Simulation vs. game first.

    4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty.

    5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play.

    6. Player housing or no player housing. 

    7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP.

    8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting.

    9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty. 

    10. Questing vs. MOB grinding.

    11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear.

    12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement.

    13. themepark vs. sandbox.

    14. End game vs. no end game.

    15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop.

    16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P.
    1. Diagonal progression works the best for RPGs. I'm more partial to Vertical, but that's mostly because I have a very limited experience with Horizontal. Regardless, a game shouldn't be a slave to either.

    2. Incredibly difficult to answer. The best way to go would be the GW 1 way, but...I just can't imagine level-less game not devolving to gotta max them(skills) all! Which is a bad game design because every character should play differently.

    3. Game first. Definitely game first. The only simulation like element I want out of a game is that it sticks to its rules.

    4. A death penalty should be present otherwise there will be legions of trolls ruining everyone's fun scot free. If we were talking about an RPG(as opposed to an MMO), I'd say: put in an optional Hardcore mode as well.

    5. Optional grouping but with various benefits. Forcing stuff is just an all around bad idea, it's flirting with doom itself, as evidenced by sinking of Wildstar. Especially when it comes to these major design elements.

    6. The same to me, as long as the game is fun. Ok, I like housing, but if a game simply has to have housing, make it good and customizable, yeah?

    7. Either no PvP or a complete focus on PvP. All of these mixed game systems are just atrociously designed and notoriously hard to balance. Take a 4s stun for example. Utterly useless or broken OP? This really should be decided with XOR: PvE XOR PvP.

    8. No looting, let's not encourage psycho / socio pathy, yeah?

    9. In the middle. Again, the rules should be clear, difficulty spikes optional(separate modes, locales etc) and the game should stick to that.

    10. Regardless, the less of a focus on the carrot itself, the better.

    11. A bit of both. Though I'd like if you got "enough" quality from PvE, alongside with crafting materials and the truly best things coming from crafting.

    12. Usage based, definitely. The game should still have a linear progression, especially if it is an RPG. MMOs should probably stick to traditional Quest / Kill base though.

    13. A bit of both, but more on a Themepark side. I rather enjoyed(to put it mildly) my time in SWTOR or GW1 or Dogma or Morrowind. What's more important is that a game's fun and replayable. Though I don't really like these modern games that focus so heavily on "emergent gameplay".

    14. No end game for me. It is about the journey and about the fun / pleasure contained therein. And about replaying those experiences with diffrrent characters / builds etc. But I'm speaking more about (o)RPGs rather than about MMOs. MMOs should stick with the endgame schtick.

    15. Really don't care as long as they don't intrude either on gameplay or on customization parts too heavily.

    16. B2P. Though I think that MMOs should probably stick with a mix of B2P and P2P. Just lower the price on the box if you'll go down the hybrid route, will you?
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,021
    If I would choose a design side to stand on its that each mmorpg should be their own game instead of being a collection of features from already existing mmorpg. Make it different, fun and exciting and I won't mind if it has additional things I don't really care for.
    AlBQuirky
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,656

    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression.

    As I get older I kind of prefer Horizontal but Vertical can be fine as well.

    2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels.

    Doesn't matter.

    3. Simulation vs. game first.

    Simulation. I'd prefer little "game play" and just a robust world to explore with people. Find my own way. I tend to do that now which is why I also tend to cut myself off from a variety of content in newer mmorpg's. When I played Black desert I never got a compass as I never played the quests that allowed me to get it from the correct npc. I ended up navigating the desert by sight and love it.

    4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty.

    Harsh

    5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play.

    I don't believe in "forced" anything. You either play a game for what it offers or not. Doesn't matter to me.

    6. Player housing or no player housing.

    Housing

    7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP.

    There are crappy players everywhere but but bad pvp players can be some of the worst. So at this point, even though I've loved Open world pvp, I'd say restricted or no pvp.

    8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting.

    No looting or limited

    9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty.

    Hard

    10. Questing vs. MOB grinding.

    NO questing. No. That is a dirty word to me now.

    11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear.

    crafting.

    12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement.

    either

    13. themepark vs. sandbox.

    Sandbox

    14. End game vs. no end game.

    No End game

    15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop.

    don't care

    16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P.

    buy to play or pay to play.



  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    edited February 2019
    Sovrath said:
    When I played Black desert I never got a compass as I never played the quests that allowed me to get it from the correct npc. I ended up navigating the desert by sight and love it.
    That was cool indeed. I felt lost too. For a short time, but it was immersive. Maybe if the desert was 20 times bigger, with that survival element - it would be brilliant. And then I get angry. Instead 20 virtual copies of the map, these stupid incompetent noobs could make 20 different OW maps, so the big dessert would exist. But no, they screwed everything.

    Also I'm disappointed from your list. You played L2 and EVE in their best years, what happened to you, how you became a solo player?
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,656
    edited February 2019
    ikcin said:
    Sovrath said:
    When I played Black desert I never got a compass as I never played the quests that allowed me to get it from the correct npc. I ended up navigating the desert by sight and love it.
    That was cool indeed. I felt lost too. For a short time, but it was immersive. Maybe if the desert was 20 times bigger, with that survival element - it would be brilliant. And then I get angry. Instead 20 virtual copies of the map, these stupid incompetent noobs could make 20 different OW maps, so the big dessert would exist. But no, they screwed everything.

    Also I'm disappointed from your list. You played L2 and EVE in their best years, what happened to you, how you became a solo player?
    Easy, crappy players.

    I'm tired of them.

    I'm not talking about people who "don't know how to play" I'm talking about the people who are essentially trash. They clog up games, polluting them. I don't suffer them in regular life I sure as hell am not going to suffer them in a video game.

    There were a few in Lineage 2 but essentialy mostly good people. I find more of them in Black Desert. Have to turn off general as it's just garbage. There is more of that now then "wayyy back when."

    I should point out that I mostly soloed in Lineage 2 up to the highest levels and then did group content. pvp was mostly group content, some solo. Some people would pk me and then I'd get them back only to have them cry and threatent and whine. wtf.

    Also, I tried EVE but never truly played it.



  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Sovrath said:
    ikcin said:
    Sovrath said:
    When I played Black desert I never got a compass as I never played the quests that allowed me to get it from the correct npc. I ended up navigating the desert by sight and love it.
    That was cool indeed. I felt lost too. For a short time, but it was immersive. Maybe if the desert was 20 times bigger, with that survival element - it would be brilliant. And then I get angry. Instead 20 virtual copies of the map, these stupid incompetent noobs could make 20 different OW maps, so the big dessert would exist. But no, they screwed everything.

    Also I'm disappointed from your list. You played L2 and EVE in their best years, what happened to you, how you became a solo player?
    Easy, crappy players.

    I'm tired of them.

    I'm not talking about people who "don't know how to play" I'm talking about the people who are essentially trash. They clog up games, polluting them. I don't suffer them in regular life I sure as hell am not going to suffer them in a video game.

    There were a few in Lineage 2 but essentialy mostly good people. I find more of them in Black Desert. Have to turn off general as it's just garbage. There is more of that now then "wayyy back when."

    I should point out that I mostly soloed in Lineage 2 up to the highest levels and then did group content. pvp was mostly group content, some solo. Some people would pk me and then I'd get them back only to have them cry and threatent and whine. wtf.

    Also, I tried EVE but never truly played it.
    Every player is crappy. You and me too. It is not possible everybody to like you. In any game I meet bad and good people. Sometimes even great people. Anyway. To play solo MMOs is really a waste I think. And honestly the best part of L2 is the good clan. Without that, L2 is a crap game.

    Anyway, now imagine the BDO desert, but 20 times bigger, without all these supportive items. With heat that kills, but only during the day. With dangerous mobs. And with soft permadeath like that in Wizardry. And there is an entrance to a dungeon with bosses and epic items. But the location of that entrance changes constantly. That will be great game I think, a real PvE.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,656
    ikcin said:
    Sovrath said:
    ikcin said:
    Sovrath said:
    When I played Black desert I never got a compass as I never played the quests that allowed me to get it from the correct npc. I ended up navigating the desert by sight and love it.
    That was cool indeed. I felt lost too. For a short time, but it was immersive. Maybe if the desert was 20 times bigger, with that survival element - it would be brilliant. And then I get angry. Instead 20 virtual copies of the map, these stupid incompetent noobs could make 20 different OW maps, so the big dessert would exist. But no, they screwed everything.

    Also I'm disappointed from your list. You played L2 and EVE in their best years, what happened to you, how you became a solo player?
    Easy, crappy players.

    I'm tired of them.

    I'm not talking about people who "don't know how to play" I'm talking about the people who are essentially trash. They clog up games, polluting them. I don't suffer them in regular life I sure as hell am not going to suffer them in a video game.

    There were a few in Lineage 2 but essentialy mostly good people. I find more of them in Black Desert. Have to turn off general as it's just garbage. There is more of that now then "wayyy back when."

    I should point out that I mostly soloed in Lineage 2 up to the highest levels and then did group content. pvp was mostly group content, some solo. Some people would pk me and then I'd get them back only to have them cry and threatent and whine. wtf.

    Also, I tried EVE but never truly played it.
    Every player is crappy. You and me too. It is not possible everybody to like you. In any game I meet bad and good people. Sometimes even great people. Anyway. To play solo MMOs is really a waste I think. And honestly the best part of L2 is the good clan. Without that, L2 is a crap game.

    Anyway, now imagine the BDO desert, but 20 times bigger, without all these supportive items. With heat that kills, but only during the day. With dangerous mobs. And with soft permadeath like that in Wizardry. And there is an entrance to a dungeon with bosses and epic items. But the location of that entrance changes constantly. That will be great game I think, a real PvE.
    Oh yeah, preaching to the choir about the desert. It's a missed opportunity.

    As far as the people, what can I say, I don't have many poisonous people (if any) in my life and I just don't feel like paying money for the privilege of having them.

    It's not about people liking one's self. It's about people who just spew garbage with everything they say. And sure, there are people like that in pve games but I find more of them, even if it is a vocal minority, in pvp games. And I'm done with them if I can help it. 
    Amaranthar



  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,774
    edited February 2019
    ikcin said:
    Sovrath said:
    ikcin said:
    Sovrath said:
    When I played Black desert I never got a compass as I never played the quests that allowed me to get it from the correct npc. I ended up navigating the desert by sight and love it.
    That was cool indeed. I felt lost too. For a short time, but it was immersive. Maybe if the desert was 20 times bigger, with that survival element - it would be brilliant. And then I get angry. Instead 20 virtual copies of the map, these stupid incompetent noobs could make 20 different OW maps, so the big dessert would exist. But no, they screwed everything.

    Also I'm disappointed from your list. You played L2 and EVE in their best years, what happened to you, how you became a solo player?
    Easy, crappy players.

    I'm tired of them.

    I'm not talking about people who "don't know how to play" I'm talking about the people who are essentially trash. They clog up games, polluting them. I don't suffer them in regular life I sure as hell am not going to suffer them in a video game.

    There were a few in Lineage 2 but essentialy mostly good people. I find more of them in Black Desert. Have to turn off general as it's just garbage. There is more of that now then "wayyy back when."

    I should point out that I mostly soloed in Lineage 2 up to the highest levels and then did group content. pvp was mostly group content, some solo. Some people would pk me and then I'd get them back only to have them cry and threatent and whine. wtf.

    Also, I tried EVE but never truly played it.
    Every player is crappy. You and me too. It is not possible everybody to like you. In any game I meet bad and good people. Sometimes even great people. Anyway. To play solo MMOs is really a waste I think. And honestly the best part of L2 is the good clan. Without that, L2 is a crap game.

    Anyway, now imagine the BDO desert, but 20 times bigger, without all these supportive items. With heat that kills, but only during the day. With dangerous mobs. And with soft permadeath like that in Wizardry. And there is an entrance to a dungeon with bosses and epic items. But the location of that entrance changes constantly. That will be great game I think, a real PvE.
    Oh you mean like Atlas,yeah i am playing that game right now.With the proper settings "private"servers,it is fully immersive,from the weather to eco system,to realistic mobs,realistic water and sailing,ZERO yellow markers over npc heads,NO linear questing,FULLY open ended game.It is VERY tough to survive and no not just the food/drink but lions and tigers and bears oh my,can catch you off guard at any moment because it is an OPEN game,no linear walled dungeons where you can see everything to prepare for.

    For myself it has been a breathe of fresh air,to play something that feels like an adult game,feels real and no hand holding of any kind.Atlas is more of an immersive rpg than the rpg's are.
    Sovrath

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • esc-joconnoresc-joconnor Member RarePosts: 1,096
    Ooh, good range of questions. I have a feeling I won't be on any side, but way out there for the most part. More of a return to PnP RPGs. MMORPGs don't really work as a niche game, the cost to make new content is too high for a small player base. So the game really needs to be appealing to as large of a group as possible, including those who would consider themselves non-gamers.
    1. I guess this would be vast shallow progression
    2. No levels, only skill and power.
    3. Entertainment first, more of a virtual reality than a game
    4. Perma death but really hard to die, re-rolling you don't start at 0
    5. Beneficial and easy access group play
    6. Player housing, player bases, player scenarios, player designed gear 
    7. Opt in PvP penalizing gankers
    8. Full loot, but with a focus on character progression gear is less significant
    9. Player choice of difficulty customizable at will
    10. Option to take "quests" or just do what you want, wide variety of quest paths.
    11. Best gear available from player crafting and gear modding
    12. Skill use advancement
    13. themepark in a sandbox.
    14. No end game
    15. Cash shops 
    16. P2P with more variety of options (light sub for those who can't play often) and Support to Play options.
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Wizardry said:
    Oh you mean like Atlas,yeah i am playing that game right now.With the proper settings "private"servers,it is fully immersive,from the weather to eco system,to realistic mobs,realistic water and sailing,ZERO yellow markers over npc heads,NO linear questing,FULLY open ended game.It is VERY tough to survive and no not just the food/drink but lions and tigers and bears oh my,can catch you off guard at any moment because it is an OPEN game,no linear walled dungeons where you can see everything to prepare for.

    For myself it has been a breathe of fresh air,to play something that feels like an adult game,feels real and no hand holding of any kind.Atlas is more of an immersive rpg than the rpg's are.
    That looks cool, but I was never been into the survival games. Too much solo grind for me. But I would like MMORPGs with more survival PvE elements. Because now the PvE except few bosses is a complete joke in the most MMORPGs. There is not even sense for immersive challenge. They are like Farmville - collect and crop - resources, gear, mobs.
  • LithuanianLithuanian Member UncommonPosts: 407
    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression

    2. Levels

    3. Simulation vs. game first. - not sure what exactly does it mean

    4. No death penalty

    5. Optional grouping/solo play.

    6. Player housing

    7. No PvP.

    8. Full loot (if there is no PvP)

    9. Easy difficulty. 

    10. Questing

    11. Cafting making best gear.

    12. Questing/kill based advancement

    13. themepark

    14. End game

    15. Cosmetic or no cash shop.

    16. F2P
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,642
    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression.

    2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels.

    3. Simulation vs. game first.

    4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty.

    5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play.

    6. Player housing or no player housing. 

    7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP.

    8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting.

    9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty. 

    10. Questing vs. MOB grinding.

    11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear.

    12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement.

    13. themepark vs. sandbox.

    14. End game vs. no end game.

    15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop.

    16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P.

    1. Vertical
    2. Levels or skillpoints (endless preferred)
    3. Not sure I understand the question.. Giving it a shot, virtual world with minimal gamey stuff
    4. Death Penalty / consequence
    5. Encouraged grouping (by design), but with high versatility in group composition and size.
    6. Indifferent
    7. Pve only
    8. See 7
    9. Hard difficulty, combination of power and player skill; safety in numbers, see 5. Encouraged grouping, and risk vs reward.
    10. Mob grinding with rng, and open ended questing instead of story driven.
    11. Combination.
    12. Do you mean xp vs skillpoints ? Indifferent, both can work well.
    13. Sandpark, pve sandbox, EqNext design
    14. I hate the term endgame, I will not let it define a base for an answer.
    15. ALL items must be aquired by playing the game, cosmetics included. Only microtransactions that I find acceptable are stuff like inventory space, character slots, external services, class unlocks(if also onlockable by playing), mini expansions and headstarts of content. Key points here are non intrusive stuff, and non gamey things that are not advertised and part of the actual ingame experience (minimal immersion breaking shop stuff, minimal player to player comparable stuff).

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985
    edited March 2019
    1. Vertical progression of leveling but also horizontal progression of collecting

    2. Levels

    3. Both - sandpark

    4. No death penalty

    5. optional grouping/solo play.

    6. Player housing

    7. no PvP.

    8. no looting (can't really have looting without PvP)

    9. medium difficulty?

    10. Questing plus hunting mobs for crafting materials

    11. crafting making best gear.

    12. Neither - directly earning stat points through relevant activities, buying skills with points earned by leveling

    13. SANDPARK

    14. End game (of sim/crafting activities, not raids/dungeons)

    15. cosmetic or no cash shop.

    16. F2P or P2P

    Post edited by sunandshadow on
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,343
    > 1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression.

    Slow progression for a MMO that you are supposed to be able to play and enjoy for decades.

    Ideally, at game release, you should see like 2/3 of the available game content on a character, assuming you dont intentionally stall and play content below your level in order to see it all. This way you can spice up leveling up new characters.

    After that alternative content should be added at all levels so leveling new characters keeps being fun to old players.


    > 2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels.

    Levels and hard balance of levels, meaning characters of same level are indeed compareable in their power, in order to be able to provide a constant challenge during any point of the gameplay.


    > 3. Simulation vs. game first.

    Game. Immersion comes from great, challenging game mechanics, not from doing stupid things for "realism".


    > 4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty.

    Neither. Good death penalty means you get to feel you died, but it shouldnt be so harsh as to make the player avoiding taking risks at all.



    > 5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play.

    Neither. Grouping necessary for boss fights and dungeons, but you can explore the world solo at your own leisure and you can attempt dungeons on your own if they are below your level or if you are so good at playing and have so good gear.



    > 6. Player housing or no player housing. 

    If a MMO doesnt already offer housing at release, add it as soon as possible.



    > 7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP.

    Definitely not unregulated PvP.

    People should be able to avoid PvP altogether if they dont like it.

    There will be special PvP events in which everyone can participate, even those who have disabled it.

    I also like the idea of having wars between guilds for priviledged resources, such as a castle.



    > 8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting.

    Definitely not full loot.

    Full loot means you cannot have a game in which equipment is valueable. I want a game in which you work on your gear longterm, as another scale of progression, thus full loot aint no option ever.




    > 9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty. 

    Thats not a real question. Any game needs to offer a challenge or its boring. The exception is games with strong story, but thats not really an option for a MMO.



    > 10. Questing vs. MOB grinding.

    You need to provide as much story content for a MMO as possible, but unless you are super successful as WoW, you wont be able to provide the player with stories 100% of time.

    And WoW of course was milked for profit, mostly, so they didnt do that either.



    > 11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear.

    A mix of course. Who wants the best gear must do both.



    > 12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement.

    ???



    > 13. themepark vs. sandbox.

    Good mix of both.



    > 14. End game vs. no end game.

    Theres always an end game. Its a MMO.



    > 15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop.

    No cash shop. Cosmetic cash shop means you hate your players and believe they're stupid, or at least some of them.



    > F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P.

    Subscription.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • 0107sj0107sj Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 5
    Well to me this sounds like a question of which design is better: Vanilla/TBC Wow or Modern wow and the correct answer is ofc Vanilla/TBC. Modern gaming philosophy is too lazy for mmorpgs
  • WarWitchWarWitch Member UncommonPosts: 290
    I stand Firmly on the flat rate a month no cash shop at all ground. We had nice communities back then. 

     Now its free to play they say, and turns into pay to win big time. These tend to be riddled with the most cussing and fussing, and selling drugs since its the lower class of people playing.  
    SteelhelmAlBQuirky
  • 45074507 Member UncommonPosts: 351
    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression.

    Diagonal. You can choose whether to get stronger vertically or unlock new skills horizontally each time you gain a level, so you can either be a tower of strength or a warehouse of versatility, and everything in between. Obviously this would only work in a rock paper scissors combat system.

    2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels.

    Levels. They're the simplest way to represent progression and I don't think there's anything wrong with them.

    3. Simulation vs. game first.

    Simulation. I have exponentially more fun in a game when I'm immersed in it.

    4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty.

    Corpse runs to retrieve gear/loot, and possibly a death counter that permakills your character after accumulating a certain number of kills.

    5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play.

    Strongly encouraged grouping. You can try to solo, but you won't get far unless you're playing a stealth class (which also makes RP sense to be for soloers).

    6. Player housing or no player housing. 

    Player housing all the way. Preferably open world, and serving functions other than just somewhere to hold online parties, such as farming the surrounding lands, operating a (NPC staffed) shop, maintaining a private crafting workshop, etc. 

    7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP.

    No PvP outside designated arenas, unless the game is built around faction warfare, or it's necessary for the game's setting (e.g. a Wild West game would feel weird without outlaws, an age of sail game would feel weird without pirates, etc), but even then choosing to PvP should not be a decision to be taken lightly - perhaps you enable permadeath when you become an outlaw.

    8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting.

    No loot unless outlaws/bandits are in the game. Otherwise the PvP should be focused on larger aims, such as capturing enemy cities, rather than looting the enemy. If the game doesn't have PvP, there's even less of a reason to have looting, because it discourages players from helping others when they get in trouble and encourages luring without any real upside. 

    9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty. 

    Hard. Even attacking a lone goblin scout should have the possibility of you getting curbstomped by his friends hiding in the bushes for an ambush. This ties into encouraging grouping/stealthing.

    10. Questing vs. MOB grinding.

    Neither. MMO quests as they currently exist are awful, and the only thing that's worse is sitting in the same clearing for hours killing the same five wolves as they respawn. Mobs shouldn't be waiting around for you to kill them, they should be wandering through the open world or living in their own dens/dungeons/encampments/etc that spawn in different locations every time they are destroyed - think Skyrim for example. XP for combat classes (and yes there should be non combat classes) should come from killing these mobs or (for bonus XP) clearing out their home bases.

    11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear.

    Crafted gear should be the best, but crafters should get their recipes from reverse engineering looted gear. For example, you might find a rather weak rusted dagger that has a poweful runic inscription - a crafter can reverse engineer it to apply that inscription to a brand new mithril greatsword. 

    12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement.

    Pretty much already answered this in 10.

    13. themepark vs. sandbox.

    Sandpark. 70% sandbox, 30% themepark.

    14. End game vs. no end game.

    No traditional end game. Gear treadmills are boring as hell, but endgame activities like faction warfare or player owned city management have the potential to really take advantage of the MM in MMORPG.

    15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop.

    No cash shop of any kind. Everything in the game must be earned in game, including cosmetics.

    16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P.

    P2P. I'll happily pay $30/month if it means no cash shop.
    kjempffAmarantharGdemami
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,673
    4507 said:
    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression.

    Diagonal. You can choose whether to get stronger vertically or unlock new skills horizontally each time you gain a level, so you can either be a tower of strength or a warehouse of versatility, and everything in between. Obviously this would only work in a rock paper scissors combat system.

    2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels.

    Levels. They're the simplest way to represent progression and I don't think there's anything wrong with them.

    3. Simulation vs. game first.

    Simulation. I have exponentially more fun in a game when I'm immersed in it.

    4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty.

    Corpse runs to retrieve gear/loot, and possibly a death counter that permakills your character after accumulating a certain number of kills.

    5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play.

    Strongly encouraged grouping. You can try to solo, but you won't get far unless you're playing a stealth class (which also makes RP sense to be for soloers).

    6. Player housing or no player housing. 

    Player housing all the way. Preferably open world, and serving functions other than just somewhere to hold online parties, such as farming the surrounding lands, operating a (NPC staffed) shop, maintaining a private crafting workshop, etc. 

    7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP.

    No PvP outside designated arenas, unless the game is built around faction warfare, or it's necessary for the game's setting (e.g. a Wild West game would feel weird without outlaws, an age of sail game would feel weird without pirates, etc), but even then choosing to PvP should not be a decision to be taken lightly - perhaps you enable permadeath when you become an outlaw.

    8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting.

    No loot unless outlaws/bandits are in the game. Otherwise the PvP should be focused on larger aims, such as capturing enemy cities, rather than looting the enemy. If the game doesn't have PvP, there's even less of a reason to have looting, because it discourages players from helping others when they get in trouble and encourages luring without any real upside. 

    9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty. 

    Hard. Even attacking a lone goblin scout should have the possibility of you getting curbstomped by his friends hiding in the bushes for an ambush. This ties into encouraging grouping/stealthing.

    10. Questing vs. MOB grinding.

    Neither. MMO quests as they currently exist are awful, and the only thing that's worse is sitting in the same clearing for hours killing the same five wolves as they respawn. Mobs shouldn't be waiting around for you to kill them, they should be wandering through the open world or living in their own dens/dungeons/encampments/etc that spawn in different locations every time they are destroyed - think Skyrim for example. XP for combat classes (and yes there should be non combat classes) should come from killing these mobs or (for bonus XP) clearing out their home bases.

    11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear.

    Crafted gear should be the best, but crafters should get their recipes from reverse engineering looted gear. For example, you might find a rather weak rusted dagger that has a poweful runic inscription - a crafter can reverse engineer it to apply that inscription to a brand new mithril greatsword. 

    12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement.

    Pretty much already answered this in 10.

    13. themepark vs. sandbox.

    Sandpark. 70% sandbox, 30% themepark.

    14. End game vs. no end game.

    No traditional end game. Gear treadmills are boring as hell, but endgame activities like faction warfare or player owned city management have the potential to really take advantage of the MM in MMORPG.

    15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop.

    No cash shop of any kind. Everything in the game must be earned in game, including cosmetics.

    16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P.

    P2P. I'll happily pay $30/month if it means no cash shop.
    That has potential, 4507. Interesting idea.

    Once upon a time....

  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 486
    edited March 2019
    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression.

    2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels.

    3. Simulation vs. game first.

    4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty.

    5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play.

    6. Player housing or no player housing. 

    7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP.

    8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting. (since no PvP, I ignore this)

    9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty. 

    10. Questing vs. MOB grinding.

    11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear.

    12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement.

    13. themepark vs. sandbox.

    14. End game vs. no end game.

    15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop.

    16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P.
    (I bolded the things I felt more strongly about.)

    * In my mind, character levels are the same thing as skill points. Some people like to distinguish between them, but they're both forms of numerical power. MMORPGs will probably always have some form of power representation, be it for a character we're roleplaying, or as a summary of our accomplishments, so that other players can quickly assess us.
    * I don't know exactly why, but I've always preferred simulation-ish games. I think it's because they're usually less linear, allowing me to make my own story more frequently. The other games feel more like railroads; like reading a story.
    * On a similar line of thinking, I also prefer sandboxes. Somehow simulations and sandboxes go together, and it feels more breathtaking for me.
    * No reason questing and mob grinding can't happen together--because, as I see it, it's quest hub grinding now
    * No reason PVE drops and crafting gear can't be complimentary, so that the best items need both. I don't like systems existing isolated from the other.
    * No reason you can't get experience for quests/killing AND gain skills when used.
    * I normally like FFA PvP in open worlds, but here I'm strictly PvE focused
    * Unsure how I feel about cash shops. I think the real reason they exist is because F2P became trendy. They may have existed otherwise, but I think F2P encourages them to exist, and designers are trying to be creative.
    * I think some death penalty and item/power decay is good. And I think difficulty should be higher, especially early on. And when I use the word difficulty, I mean I should be dying. I should feel like there's some struggle going on. I get the impression too many MMORPGs are afraid to pressure a new player. Maybe it's because too many players quit too soon when they die a couple times.

    Where I'm most uncertain is regarding the type of progression (horizontal or vertical or other), and whether there's an end game, whereby it's distinctly different from the rest of the game, and it's in a special category--raids (or end game) can be thought of as the apex of character accomplishment, since they're a culmination of the collective population.

    If I think about it, server wipes (for pvp servers) and mudflation and power creep, all are interrelated. Maybe when it becomes a regular thing for ALL players in PvE-only MMORPGs to permanently die, in some fashion, mudflation and power creep won'[t be as extensive as they're now. The reason levels--and powers--keep adding up is because players are never losing them. Things pile on one another because there's no decay or limitation. And maybe horizontal progression is linked to this too, since it's attempting to NOT add onto the vertical pile.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 486
    edited March 2019
    Amathe said:
    Amathe said:
    Amathe said:

    I swear people just enjoy being contrary just to make statements.
    I recall this was your post and you raising this issue.
    I never raised an issue.  You had an issue.  I am just asking opinions on what people like in MMORPG and you got triggered over semantics.  You know exactly what I am talking about but decided to make it a triggering issue for you out of context.
    You asked for our opinions on a list of issues, one of which included as a possible choice the term "forced grouping." Which as you now know is a term I find to be nonsense. 
    I want to share a thought. Maybe these quest hub MMORPGs we got now are forced content? The old Everquest may have been forced grouping.

    I never realized until a few days ago that's what they're. Forced content. When I look at my gameplay that's exactly what's going on. I'm going from quest to quest. I don't feel like it's my own narrative. I'm dragged along by the writers, as are all the other players. At least in EQ1 I felt like I followed my calling more, maybe it's because I rarely did any of the quests--and they were disjointed and hard to follow along to be honest. I'm not asserting I altogether don't enjoy the modern quest hub gameplay, rather I'm tryign to convey it's a different style of gameplay, as opposed to a linear improvement. Linear improvements are like when you add more polygons to a model, resulting in it having a more appealing appearance. Most people can agree that's an improvement. When it pertains to gameplay, disagreement is much more prevalent.

    So why forced content? Because it prevents lulls. It prevents the player from getting lost. It creates their narrative. It sets their priorities. It leads them on and gives them a purpose. It allows the designer to stage an elaborate performance. It's about control, enabling the makers to WOW their audience. This is why the characters Neo or Gandalf are so memorable, and yet the random characters we've all made in many different RPGs are frequently forgotten.
    4507sunandshadow
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,343



    * In my mind, character levels are the same thing as skill points. Some people like to distinguish between them, but they're both forms of numerical power. MMORPGs will probably always have some form of power representation, be it for a character we're roleplaying, or as a summary of our accomplishments, so that other players can quickly assess us.
    Err ... yes sure its all "numbers".

    But levels is a very special number that is supposed to specify the power level of your character.

    While the other numbers like attributes and skills are supposed to describe your character, not specify the powerlevel of the character.

    In fact depending upon your rulesystem you can consider all other choices of your character as numbers, too. Gender obviously is an enumeration of just two choices: female and male. So thats maybe simply a boolean is_male, with 0=female and 1=male. Your MMO likely has races, so thats also an enumeration, such as 0=human, 1=elf, 2=dwarf, etc. And maybe its classbased, then thats again some enumeration like 0=fighter, 1=wizard, 2=priest, 3=trickster, etc.

    Everything is numbers for a computer. Characters are just numbers. Images are just numbers. Sound is just numbers. Machine code is just numbers. Doesnt mean that numbers dont have a different meaning, depending upon what they're supposed to represent.

    Considering your other choices, I'm surprised you even find levels interesting at all. You sound very much like the type of gamer who doesnt want any levels or classes in a game.

    Hawkaya399
    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,264
    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression.

    I prefer a mix of both. 

    2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels.

    I love leveling.  It doesn't matter if it is skill points, level on a character, ect....  When I run out of levels or seeing that number go up I get bored.  I do not enjoy running the same content over an over to inflate say a weapon or gearscore though.

    3. Simulation vs. game first.

    Game First

    4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty.

    Don't mind a death penalty as long as there is a way to recoup some of the lost things.  Do not like death penalties where you lose everything.

    5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play.

    The easiest thing for me to answer, optional grouping.  I have found that as I have gotten older my tolerance for others in groups has gone down a lot.  I do not like elitest or people that think you have to do things their way or you are not playing right.   I also don't like content like story being locked behind group content when 90% of it is solo play.

    6. Player housing or no player housing.

    Prefer instanced housing.  I do not like running around in a game an seeing all the homes that basically are abandoned all over the place as games age.

    7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP.

    Restricted PvP, let those that want it have it with a toggle option and those that don't be able to just play the game.

    8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting.

    No looting period.  The first game I ever played in the MMO setting was Ultima Online, the idea of losing all your gear for me was the worst part of the game.  Sure it can make it more intense but that isn't the feeling I am looking for while gaming.

    9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty.

    Should have a mix of both.  Don't have to go one way here an doing that has been the downfall of many games.

    10. Questing vs. MOB grinding.

    I prefer questing myself, but don't mind MOB grinding to be an option for those that prefer it.

    11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear.

    They should be on the same level.  You should have gear that can be crafted that is just as good as any drop or why have crafting in the first place.  This is the one area so many game screw up.  All you have to do is make the work to craft the gear that is great just as tedious as the PvE is to get.   Make it have to have things that come from all other areas of the game where people have to rely on others if they don't prefer the playsytle that will get the components needed.  You have to have a Auction House system for this to truly work though.

    12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement.

    I think there should be a mix of all of  the above.  

    13. themepark vs. sandbox.

    Neither, I like a mix of both.  Each is good in its own rights, but I think if done right what is now called a sandpark can be one of the best iterations.

    14. End game vs. no end game.

    I personally detest this term.  It is what has ruined a lot of games.  People blow through content because they believe that the game doesn't start till that term end game happens.  Worst term to ever come to gaming in my opinion.  Yes there should be things to do at max level but the idea that the game doesn't start to then is ludicrous.

    15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop.

    Fully support cosmetic cash shops as long as they don't put every single item that looks worth a damn in it as the only means to get it.  Should have some way to gain cash shop currency through gameplay as a reward over time type of thing.

    16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P.

    Prefer P2P as long as it is 100% everything with no shops of any kind.  If it is going to have cash shops it should be B2P as all developers should get something for the time they put into building the game.  F2P is the worst model ever created because they now push out trash games as fast as they can because they expect to get their funding through add ons and cash shop.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,002
    Amathe said:
    Amathe said:
    Amathe said:

    I swear people just enjoy being contrary just to make statements.
    I recall this was your post and you raising this issue.
    I never raised an issue.  You had an issue.  I am just asking opinions on what people like in MMORPG and you got triggered over semantics.  You know exactly what I am talking about but decided to make it a triggering issue for you out of context.
    You asked for our opinions on a list of issues, one of which included as a possible choice the term "forced grouping." Which as you now know is a term I find to be nonsense. 
    I want to share a thought. Maybe these quest hub MMORPGs we got now are forced content? The old Everquest may have been forced grouping.

    I never realized until a few days ago that's what they're. Forced content. When I look at my gameplay that's exactly what's going on. I'm going from quest to quest. I don't feel like it's my own narrative. I'm dragged along by the writers, as are all the other players. At least in EQ1 I felt like I followed my calling more, maybe it's because I rarely did any of the quests--and they were disjointed and hard to follow along to be honest. I'm not asserting I altogether don't enjoy the modern quest hub gameplay, rather I'm tryign to convey it's a different style of gameplay, as opposed to a linear improvement. Linear improvements are like when you add more polygons to a model, resulting in it having a more appealing appearance. Most people can agree that's an improvement. When it pertains to gameplay, disagreement is much more prevalent.

    So why forced content? Because it prevents lulls. It prevents the player from getting lost. It creates their narrative. It sets their priorities. It leads them on and gives them a purpose. It allows the designer to stage an elaborate performance. It's about control, enabling the makers to WOW their audience. This is why the characters Neo or Gandalf are so memorable, and yet the random characters we've all made in many different RPGs are frequently forgotten.
    I dislike forced content in MMORPG in most cases. This is why I would limit required quest to just class quest to gain ability to truly understand the ability and or class.  Then off to the real game. 

    Does the MMORPG community really need 100 levels of easy generic questing or killing 1 million NPCs to learn how to play? Neither is that enjoyable which is why developers have made it easy mode to get it over with fast.  Why include it at all if you just bypass it with easy play and money?

    It's no wonder why the genre is in the state it's in when you have a slow development cycle technically limited genre bogged down in dated bad gameplay.  
    SteelhelmHawkaya399
  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,510
    Some of you guys could pool funds, build a game, and still do better than AAA studios.
    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
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