Developers make full loot pvp MMOs because they dont want my money. *shrug*
If I play a MMO I am looking for a game that I can play for years and decades. No way I'd do that if there is no longterm incentive to work on your character, including the gear of your character. With full loot pvp the gear of the character cannot matter, i.e. needs to be easily replaceable. Thus MMOs with full loot pvp dont interest me at all.
If I was making a game that "I" wanted to play, why would I make it for you if what you want is different from me?
So many times we see some players saying that developers sell out, going for largest audience, etc.
Well, it's still a sellout to create a game that others are interested in except the developers.
If I was making a game that you wanted to play for YOUR money and I didn't like it I'd be selling out.
So no, they don't want your money so much as they want the money of people who want their style of game.
But there is this really weird line of thinking that every game has to be for everyone, whether it's the game itself or alternate servers which will cost additional money to keep up and develop for.
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If I was making a game that "I" wanted to play, why would I make it for you if what you want is different from me?
...because devs have the bills to pay.
That doesn't change the fact that they might want to break away and try their hand at something that they actually want to make.
Artists of all types, people who create things, don't go into their respective craft "to pay the bills." Oh sure, everyone who does something creative would love to make something that pays the bills. But usually they do something extra that pays the bills so they can do the things that excite them, that made them want to get into their field.
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Unless you tried to imply they should start some other company that would make up for losses, you didn't.
And I hope that wasn't a point you tried to make...
No it wasn't.
People who create things, whether they are artists, developers, dancers, actors, usually walk the line of making a living and doing their "work."
Perhaps the closest example in this case would be an architect. The architects I've know would work at a company doing grunt work all the while doing their own work on the side.
For a developer they might work at a larger company only to take some time and do their own work.
I've read of young developers working for indy projects just to bolster their resumes.
For me, I work a regular job in the day so I can do my work in the evenings/weekends.
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When I am looking for a new game, if I see full loot PVP I automatically reject the game....Its just not something I am interested in, no matter if the game may even be good.. It seems to draw a certain type of player that I usually dont get along with very well.
Go count all of the “loot” based pvp mmos that have been attempted and get the ratio of those that failed and those that stayed slive longer than 2 years.
Now count all all of the other mmos that have been attempted and apply the same ratio.
Just off the top of my head for the “successful” loot side you have Darkfall - DFO was alive 4 years and the only reason they shut it down was to launch DFUW which lived another 4+ years or so and two DFO revivals that are still going. Eve online everyone knows about. Albion, Asherons Call, Ultima Online.. I’m tired and can’t think of any more atm.
You guys fill in the rest.
I really think opinions are heavily skewed about loot pvp games and their success rate, but I’m eager to be proven wrong if we can collectively get some REAL numbers here.
Its an attempt to add emotion and loss to what is otherwise a shallow and pointless system in mmorpgs.
Most mmorpgs death in pvp wasnt even really inconvenient...it just didnt matter, and sometimes the trip back to town was handy. Losing loot gave a sense of danger and loss which is good. problem is mmorpg players are totally incapable or realizing all of these games are built around loss of gear, and gear isnt hard to get, its the point of grinding, and its not your super rare raid weapon you lose its just a tier crafted item that youll need to pump out thousands of to level the craft so loing it was more a favor to you...so its the same as the themepark pvp death where your just back in town no less off.
PVP is flawed in mmorpgs, ground up, and in every iteration. Its just with full loot mmorpg players cant wrap their heads around it properly so they hate it off the bat, killing a bunch of solid games before they really got to live.
If I was making a game that "I" wanted to play, why would I make it for you if what you want is different from me?
...because devs have the bills to pay.
That doesn't change the fact that they might want to break away and try their hand at something that they actually want to make.
Artists of all types, people who create things, don't go into their respective craft "to pay the bills." Oh sure, everyone who does something creative would love to make something that pays the bills. But usually they do something extra that pays the bills so they can do the things that excite them, that made them want to get into their field.
Yeah, but the publishers do not give a **** for the art, they care only for the profit. Look at BDO - how it started and where it ended. One more instanced arena in the "open world next generation sandbox game"
Well, the original post asks why these games are still keep being made. And the reason they are being made is that there are people who want to make them.
They either know that there is a small audience for them and will make a game according to that small audience or they don't know that there is a small audience/they think their is a large audience and they think that "they" are the one to make "the" game to bring them together.
I remember hearing a quote saying something like "you have to truly believe that what you are making is brilliant and people will want it." In truth, if you don't believe in what you are doing you will never do it. So it makes sense.
Additionally, these developers have turned to crowdfunding with the hopes that they can excite like minded people. Unfortunately, many of them don't have the experience/know how to carry their plans to fruition. But, I suppose they truly believe in their projects so "there it is."
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Go count all of the “loot” based pvp mmos that have been attempted and get the ratio of those that failed and those that stayed slive longer than 2 years.
Now count all all of the other mmos that have been attempted and apply the same ratio.
Just off the top of my head for the “successful” loot side you have Darkfall - DFO was alive 4 years and the only reason they shut it down was to launch DFUW which lived another 4+ years or so and two DFO revivals that are still going. Eve online everyone knows about. Albion, Asherons Call, Ultima Online.. I’m tired and can’t think of any more atm.
You guys fill in the rest.
I really think opinions are heavily skewed about loot pvp games and their success rate, but I’m eager to be proved wrong if we can collectively get some REAL numbers here.
Typically the PvP games are terrible technical and mechanical messes. Then people who are anti-PvP say see I told you nobody wants to play these games. In reality no matter the play style hardly anyone would want to play those games.
Mortal Online for example was so bad I quit shortly after trying it. I was never killed. Never got that far.
Typically the PvP games are terrible technical and mechanical messes.
...and yet there are "PVE games" that are also technical and mechanical mess and people seem to be playing them despite their issues.
This type of arguments is falacious - it does not matter how many games got shut down, what matters is how many of them are active.
Lacking any significant PVP focused persistent MMOs on the market speaks volumes how many people want to play one.
How many significant PVE MMOs compared to the number that have been attempted? The original question asked "Why do devs keep attempting this?" By that logic why do devs keep attempting to make MMOs at all?!? You MUST look at the number of attempts vs the number of games still alive because that completely destroys the "Why do they keep doing this" argument. Standard run of the mill PVE MMOs are attempted every day. PVP and especially LOOT PVP games are very rarely attempted. The ratio of failure and success probably isn't much different. There are simply fewer attempts at the pvp games so the numbers look worse.
It's not silly. And again I never put money monetary value into the equation. That was you from the stocks. You brought up pixels. You started saying pixel art is not comparable to Mona Lisa in value.
Again I was talking about someone's time and money spent on wasted on a game that robs them of it. You basically argued on your own about monetary value.
"So if I draw pictures on my computer they are less worth while because they are pixels?" Worth while is not comparing monetary value but personal value. So please stop.
I will argue with that. The game cannot steal your time and money. The risk of loss is part of the game, part of the fun, part of the entertainment - is'n it? So loot, or any other risk is not stealing from you. Except if you play with the idea that the win is guaranteed for you and for every player. There are that kind of games, many of them, but even when they call themselves MMOs, it is doubtful if they are really such. When all the players only win - there is not competition, no need of cooperation, and the multiplayer part is limited to sharing of a map.
You can argue that but that is how things are. People do not want to waste time and developers have given into this.
I named 6 MMOs that lived long or are still going, yet people are still here saying it's a failed fork of the genre...
If developers are only after the WoW success then we'll always see the same old stuff rehashed in an attempt to be the "next big thing".
I'm sorry if it hurts your little feelings, but I appreciate the developers that take a risk and make the games they want to play because that means it might actually be something that I want to play.
...and why do you think they are after WoW? It is a good indicator what people want.
If there were more people playing other type of games, say, PVP focused games, they would be making more PVP focused games.
Simple supply & demand....c'mon, you are a smart guy...
I’m going to assume you are as well and blindly overlooked the obvious. If a developer is after money they’ll chase wow ( and likely fail as history has taught us) but if they want to chase their passion then what they make is what they like. They don’t have to have wow numbers to be a success, they just need consistent customers to sustain their business
why do devs try it? Because that’s what they like.
You can argue that but that is how things are. People do not want to waste time and developers have given into this.
This is a pure delusion. Sorry. You waste your time when you start to play a game. Sometimes you may find friends, a lover, new relations - not a common, but possible scenario. But in general the whole entertainment industry has one goal - to waste your time. I do not mind, as I have time to waste as many other people in the modern society.
You will never get things that worth your time like love, care, respect in the games. Even if you find them when you play, to take them you must stop wasting your time.
You can claim anything that takes time is a waste of time. It's basically an opinion. I have coworkers who will tell you marriage is a waste of time lol.
I guess you can say people don't want to their waste of time being for nothing.
Comments
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
And I hope that wasn't a point you tried to make...
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Now count all all of the other mmos that have been attempted and apply the same ratio.
Just off the top of my head for the “successful” loot side you have Darkfall - DFO was alive 4 years and the only reason they shut it down was to launch DFUW which lived another 4+ years or so and two DFO revivals that are still going. Eve online everyone knows about. Albion, Asherons Call, Ultima Online.. I’m tired and can’t think of any more atm.
You guys fill in the rest.
I really think opinions are heavily skewed about loot pvp games and their success rate, but I’m eager to be proven wrong if we can collectively get some REAL numbers here.
Most mmorpgs death in pvp wasnt even really inconvenient...it just didnt matter, and sometimes the trip back to town was handy. Losing loot gave a sense of danger and loss which is good. problem is mmorpg players are totally incapable or realizing all of these games are built around loss of gear, and gear isnt hard to get, its the point of grinding, and its not your super rare raid weapon you lose its just a tier crafted item that youll need to pump out thousands of to level the craft so loing it was more a favor to you...so its the same as the themepark pvp death where your just back in town no less off.
PVP is flawed in mmorpgs, ground up, and in every iteration. Its just with full loot mmorpg players cant wrap their heads around it properly so they hate it off the bat, killing a bunch of solid games before they really got to live.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Mortal Online for example was so bad I quit shortly after trying it. I was never killed. Never got that far.
This type of arguments is falacious - it does not matter how many games got shut down, what matters is how many of them are active.
Lacking any significant PVP focused persistent MMOs on the market speaks volumes how many people want to play one.
It is akin to reasoning of: There is 10M people playing WoW but there is 500M that don't.
Well, at least that's how economics define market demand - number of units consumers purchase at a price point and time.
If there were more people playing other type of games, say, PVP focused games, they would be making more PVP focused games.
Simple supply & demand....c'mon, you are a smart guy...
why do devs try it? Because that’s what they like.
I guess you can say people don't want to their waste of time being for nothing.