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New Caspien tantrum about news coverage

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,150

    Edit: the ones about CoE launch timelines and feature timelines and underlying-tech choices and info-update timelines don't yet add up to me as legit failures of Kickstarter, but one of the other of Slap's points does add up! As Slap showed, SBS knew they'd need more money originally, which is against the rules (and I'm assuming on faith that SBS hasn't faced Kickstarter consequences for breaking that rule..?).
    The interesting angle here is that Slap claims that SBS are grossly incompetent. If they are that incompetent it is quite possible they did not realise how far off they were.
    Please go read the Caspien interview on Massively.  I have linked it before and quoted it multiple times. Caspien claimed they needed $2-$3 million more.  This was what HE SAID.  He also said the extra money would be covered by investors not players.

    Yet here we are...  $5.6 million raised by Crowdfunding so far and not even in Alpha. Years late and millions over budget.  Stubbornly starting and scraping projects like ElyriaMud and VoxElyria. Putting resources into “demos” like the Mines and Jousting which are then no longer supported due to backend changes.  Ignoring the skeptics and making SpatialOS the fabric the game would be built on before, yup you guessed it, scrapping all that work and claiming to be able to easily replace it with a tiny team and off the shelf programs (and having done so in mere weeks or months).

    So yeah. In my world we call that incompetence. 

    Now whether it was simple incompetence or intentional that they didn’t state the Kickstarter didnt cover the costs of the project is irrelevant.  The rules don’t say “The funding amount is the amount of money a creator needs to complete their project unless you forget to tell us”

    ——————

    How much has been raised or promised from investors to date? How much of the additional $3 million will be covered by investors rather than players?

    We’re not able to talk about investor relations right now. It’s not that we don’t want to. We can’t. Of the additional $2M – $3M, it’s our intention that all of it be covered by investors, or at least, not players. When we have more information we’ll release it to the community.

    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,150

    Scot said:
    Any word from PC gamer yet?...Ok I did this one several pages ago but the thread has been going so long I thought it was worth asking again. ;)
    No word from PCGamer  ;)
    But we also didn’t get the 0.5 State Of Elyria Update that Caspien promised back in Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb. The delay was last blamed on underlings a few weeks ago. Caspien recently admitted that he was surprised to find out they were working on 0.5 for 4+ months.  He thought it was only 2 months.  I guess we know why every deadline is missed.  His Gantt Charts apparently do not mark time.

    But maybe the real delay is just waiting for PCGamer to give them that big expose’...

     :D 
    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,368
    edited February 15
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:

    You appear to be trying to build a strawman about kickstarters in general, and accuse others of focusing / hating only on COE.

    I raised valid concerns about whether or not a backer feels the team is capable of delivering the project, if it is properly funded, or if the goals are even in the realm of possibility yet you ignore, because it dispels your argument?

    MadFrenchies comment pissed you off, so rephrased,  in what reality are the points being raised invalid, clearly not the one most of the rest of us reside in.

    (Though I know of at least one other resident in there with you.)

    ;)


    Those aren't arguments against Kickstarter. They are arguments against COE. There is the strawman.
    They are arguments directed at any and all MMORPG kick starters, of which COE is one.

    Same applies to CU where I showed even though I had decent reason to believe promises might be kept, clearly things haven't worked out.

    Same questions apply to any other KSer, games, new hard goods or otherwise.

    Someone puts up a crowd funding effort for flying cars or personal jet packs you can be sure I'm going to want to see a demo of the anti-gravity tech, PhDs of engineering team along with their Nobel prizes for their discovery.

    Again, you continue to deflect, you're beat and you know it, time to withdraw gracefully while still possible. 


    How can I "be beat" by stating that Kickstarter is use at your own risk?
    Again you raise the strawman, let's return to the original point which you framed as an "absolute."

    "This is actually one of the best (only?) arguments against backing a crowdfunded game; it takes so long that you might not be interested once it is done."

    I disagreed saying a backer should also weigh a team's ability to successfully deliver the product.

    Factors to review include talent, funding plans, technology and realistic schedules.

    Since much of this has to be taken on faith how trustworthy the leaders are also comes into play. 

    I then provided examples of how CU failed to meet promises on delivery dates despite appearing to be somewhat possible but clearly has missed its mark. 

    Had you simply agreed at this point the discussion would have ended, but you went off in tangents, responding more to other posters on topics they or you raised.

    I and others challenged Caspian on several of these points during the KSer as by then it was no longer our first rodeo, and for the most part our concerns played out as predicted.

    Setting aside specific project examples, do you still stand besides your original point of the "only" valid reason to not support a specific KSer is because the backer might lose interest?

    I agreed this was actually one factor, but I believe I've made a solid case to refute. 

    I forgot another important one, some people might not have disposable income they are willing to part with on the promise a game might be delivered "someday," especially when the track record for all MMORPG projects on estimating delivery has been abysmal to date.





    Gdemamitweedledumb99

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher Member UncommonPosts: 263
    StaalBurgher said:

    The interesting angle here is that Slap claims that SBS are grossly incompetent. If they are that incompetent it is quite possible they did not realise how far off they were.
    Please go read the Caspien interview on Massively.  I have linked it before and quoted it multiple times. Caspien claimed they needed $2-$3 million more.  This was what HE SAID.  He also said the extra money would be covered by investors not players.

    Yet here we are...  $5.6 million raised by Crowdfunding so far and not even in Alpha. Years late and millions over budget.  Stubbornly starting and scraping projects like ElyriaMud and VoxElyria. Putting resources into “demos” like the Mines and Jousting which are then no longer supported due to backend changes.  Ignoring the skeptics and making SpatialOS the fabric the game would be built on before, yup you guessed it, scrapping all that work and claiming to be able to easily replace it with a tiny team and off the shelf programs (and having done so in mere weeks or months).

    So yeah. In my world we call that incompetence. 

    Now whether it was simple incompetence or intentional that they didn’t state the Kickstarter didnt cover the costs of the project is irrelevant.  The rules don’t say “The funding amount is the amount of money a creator needs to complete their project unless you forget to tell us”

    ——————

    How much has been raised or promised from investors to date? How much of the additional $3 million will be covered by investors rather than players?

    We’re not able to talk about investor relations right now. It’s not that we don’t want to. We can’t. Of the additional $2M – $3M, it’s our intention that all of it be covered by investors, or at least, not players. When we have more information we’ll release it to the community.

    No, Slap you do not get to put words in my mouth. I said nothing as to their actual competence.

    (1) You say they grossly incompetent.
    (2) You say they lied deliberately about how much they needed.
    (3) I stated that if they are as incompetent as you say it might be the case that they might simply did not have knowledge to accurate estimate how much they needed.

    Do not pretend that I am discussing their competence. I wasn't. The problem is you want to butter your bread on both sides. You have a long track record of that.

    (4) It is irrelevant what he said about investors. They tried, they couldn't get any. Simple as.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,150
    edited February 15
    StaalBurgher said:

    The interesting angle here is that Slap claims that SBS are grossly incompetent. If they are that incompetent it is quite possible they did not realise how far off they were.
    Please go read the Caspien interview on Massively.  I have linked it before and quoted it multiple times. Caspien claimed they needed $2-$3 million more.  This was what HE SAID.  He also said the extra money would be covered by investors not players.

    Yet here we are...  $5.6 million raised by Crowdfunding so far and not even in Alpha. Years late and millions over budget.  Stubbornly starting and scraping projects like ElyriaMud and VoxElyria. Putting resources into “demos” like the Mines and Jousting which are then no longer supported due to backend changes.  Ignoring the skeptics and making SpatialOS the fabric the game would be built on before, yup you guessed it, scrapping all that work and claiming to be able to easily replace it with a tiny team and off the shelf programs (and having done so in mere weeks or months).

    So yeah. In my world we call that incompetence. 

    Now whether it was simple incompetence or intentional that they didn’t state the Kickstarter didnt cover the costs of the project is irrelevant.  The rules don’t say “The funding amount is the amount of money a creator needs to complete their project unless you forget to tell us”

    ——————

    How much has been raised or promised from investors to date? How much of the additional $3 million will be covered by investors rather than players?

    We’re not able to talk about investor relations right now. It’s not that we don’t want to. We can’t. Of the additional $2M – $3M, it’s our intention that all of it be covered by investors, or at least, not players. When we have more information we’ll release it to the community.

    No, Slap you do not get to put words in my mouth. I said nothing as to their actual competence.

    (1) You say they grossly incompetent.
    (2) You say they lied deliberately about how much they needed.
    (3) I stated that if they are as incompetent as you say it might be the case that they might simply did not have knowledge to accurate estimate how much they needed.

    Do not pretend that I am discussing their competence. I wasn't. The problem is you want to butter your bread on both sides. You have a long track record of that.

    (4) It is irrelevant what he said about investors. They tried, they couldn't get any. Simple as.
    Please show me #2

    As far as I know, I never claimed it was a deliberate lie or just another example of incompetence.  At one point I put "mistakenly" in quotes to show this is what they claim but who knows.   But as to the point about Kickstarter, it doesn't matter in the least if you leave it out intentionally or are just incompetent. 

    So it's amazing that a guy who talks about "strawmen" and then says "You don't get to put words in my mouth", then goes and does BOTH to me.
    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher Member UncommonPosts: 263
    edited February 15
    Kyleran said:
    StaalBurgher said:

    How can I "be beat" by stating that Kickstarter is use at your own risk?
    Again you raise the strawman, let's return to the original point which you framed as an "absolute."

    "This is actually one of the best (only?) arguments against backing a crowdfunded game; it takes so long that you might not be interested once it is done."

    I disagreed saying a backer should also weigh a team's ability to successfully deliver the product.

    Factors to review include talent, funding plans, technology and realistic schedules.

    I then provided examples of how CU failed to meet promises on delivery dates despite appearing to be somewhat possible but clearly has missed its mark. 

    Had you simply agreed at this point the discussion would have ended, but you went off in tangents, responding more to other posters on topics they or you raised.

    I and others challenged Caspian on several of these points during the KSer as by then it was no longer our first rodeo, and for the most part our concerns played out as predicted.

    Setting aside specific project examples, do you still stand besides your original point of the "only" valid reason to not support a specific KSer is because the backer might lose interest?

    I agreed this was actually one factor, but I believe I've made a solid case to refute. 

    I forgot another important one, some people might not have disposable income they are willing to part with on the promise a game might be delivered "someday," especially when the track record for all MMORPG projects on estimating delivery has been abysmal to date.





    (1) I disagreed saying a backer should also weigh a team's ability to successfully deliver the product. Factors to review include talent, funding plans, technology and realistic schedules.

    Yes those are drawbacks for having a very open market to entry for people with ideas. The drawback is the backer has to do all the due diligence. My statements has to do with the claims that Kickstarter is broken, immoral, fraud, shouldn't exist etc.

    What you are talking about is having differing tiers of risk when the crowdfunding platform does due diligence to greater/lesser degrees. I agree with that completely. Right now Kickstarter does zero due diligence but this is also clearly stated. Hence there is "no argument against it".

    (2) Examples of COE are irrelevant as to whether there is a rational for Kickstarter, a crowdfunding platform with zero due diligence, to exist. It only serves as evidence of the risks of using it but it is still great that there is a platform where people can take those risks.

    (3) Setting aside specific project examples, do you still stand besides your original point of the "only" valid reason to not support a specific KSer is because the backer might lose interest?

    Ok, I see what has happened. Bad phrasing on my part, apologies. I am talking about crowdfunding/Kickstarter in general. Obviously, as an individual backer looking at a particular game you need to do your own due diligence. Which might not really be practical or possible I grant you, hence why you should probably have platforms with higher base DD done on your behalf. The platform would necessarily charge higher fees. So indie developers with more provable credentials can get more funding at the lowest tier. Devs with no reputation would get more funding at a higher tier but at a higher cost. Something like that.
  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher Member UncommonPosts: 263
    Please show me #2

    As far as I know, I never claimed it was a deliberate lie or just another example of incompetence.  At one point I put "mistakenly" in quotes to show this is what they claim but who knows.   But as to the point about Kickstarter, it doesn't matter in the least if you leave it out intentionally or are just incompetent. 

    So it's amazing that a guy who talks about "strawmen" and then says "You don't get to put words in my mouth", then goes and does BOTH to me.W
    Well, your post highlighted this and the argument that they did not disclose the "full amount" seems to indicate you are accusing them of dishonesty.

    Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

    If you retract the claim that they deliberate withheld estimate cost information then sure, I can see how I misunderstood you.

    You guys strawman me constantly for simply trying to bring some balance to a conversation.

    Simple fact is that SBS are trying to build what they said they would. Could they be doing it better, probabaly but that is irrelevant.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,150
    Please show me #2

    As far as I know, I never claimed it was a deliberate lie or just another example of incompetence.  At one point I put "mistakenly" in quotes to show this is what they claim but who knows.   But as to the point about Kickstarter, it doesn't matter in the least if you leave it out intentionally or are just incompetent. 

    So it's amazing that a guy who talks about "strawmen" and then says "You don't get to put words in my mouth", then goes and does BOTH to me.W
    Well, your post highlighted this and the argument that they did not disclose the "full amount" seems to indicate you are accusing them of dishonesty.

    Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

    If you retract the claim that they deliberate withheld estimate cost information then sure, I can see how I misunderstood you.

    You guys strawman me constantly for simply trying to bring some balance to a conversation.

    Simple fact is that SBS are trying to build what they said they would. Could they be doing it better, probabaly but that is irrelevant.
    Again-  Whether it is incompetent or intentional makes no difference. That second quote above is from Kickstarter not Slapshot.   It was not clear that the amount being raised was not the entire amount needed to complete the project (this was a Kickstarter Rule as pointed out by Massively).  It was not stated on the KS page.

    So I ask you again.  Where did I "say they lied deliberately about how much money they needed"

    I didn't.

    But that doesn't stop YOU from putting words in my mouth... sorry "seems to indicate" doesn't cut it.  Neither does you AGAIN saying I need to "retract the claim that they deliberate withheld estimate cost information".  A claim I am still waiting for you to show me.

    Why do YOU think you can make up things I never said?  Is it OK because it's for the greater good of the game?  Do you not see the utter irony that you do EXACTLY what you complain about? There is a Psychology term called Projection.  Caspien can probably explain it to you as he has a degree in Psych.

    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher Member UncommonPosts: 263
    edited February 15
    Please show me #2

    As far as I know, I never claimed it was a deliberate lie or just another example of incompetence.  At one point I put "mistakenly" in quotes to show this is what they claim but who knows.   But as to the point about Kickstarter, it doesn't matter in the least if you leave it out intentionally or are just incompetent. 

    So it's amazing that a guy who talks about "strawmen" and then says "You don't get to put words in my mouth", then goes and does BOTH to me.W
    Well, your post highlighted this and the argument that they did not disclose the "full amount" seems to indicate you are accusing them of dishonesty.

    Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

    If you retract the claim that they deliberate withheld estimate cost information then sure, I can see how I misunderstood you.

    You guys strawman me constantly for simply trying to bring some balance to a conversation.

    Simple fact is that SBS are trying to build what they said they would. Could they be doing it better, probabaly but that is irrelevant.
    Again-  Whether it is incompetent or intentional makes no difference. That second quote above is from Kickstarter not Slapshot.   It was not clear that the amount being raised was not the entire amount needed to complete the project (this was a Kickstarter Rule as pointed out by Massively).  It was not stated on the KS page.

    So I ask you again.  Where did I "say they lied deliberately about how much money they needed"

    I didn't.

    But that doesn't stop YOU from putting words in my mouth... sorry "seems to indicate" doesn't cut it.  Neither does you AGAIN saying I need to "retract the claim that they deliberate withheld estimate cost information".  A claim I am still waiting for you to show me.

    Why do YOU think you can make up things I never said?  Is it OK because it's for the greater good of the game?  Do you not see the utter irony that you do EXACTLY what you complain about? There is a Psychology term called Projection.  Caspien can probably explain it to you as he has a degree in Psych.

    It makes every difference whether it is intentional, incompetence or simple estimate variance. If they did it through incompetence or simple variance they did not break a rule.

    The fact is that you highlighted it when discussing whether they broke KS rules by withholding information. How is that interpreted other than deliberate dishonesty?

    Where do I put words in your mouth above?
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,150
    Please show me #2

    As far as I know, I never claimed it was a deliberate lie or just another example of incompetence.  At one point I put "mistakenly" in quotes to show this is what they claim but who knows.   But as to the point about Kickstarter, it doesn't matter in the least if you leave it out intentionally or are just incompetent. 

    So it's amazing that a guy who talks about "strawmen" and then says "You don't get to put words in my mouth", then goes and does BOTH to me.W
    Well, your post highlighted this and the argument that they did not disclose the "full amount" seems to indicate you are accusing them of dishonesty.

    Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

    If you retract the claim that they deliberate withheld estimate cost information then sure, I can see how I misunderstood you.

    You guys strawman me constantly for simply trying to bring some balance to a conversation.

    Simple fact is that SBS are trying to build what they said they would. Could they be doing it better, probabaly but that is irrelevant.
    Again-  Whether it is incompetent or intentional makes no difference. That second quote above is from Kickstarter not Slapshot.   It was not clear that the amount being raised was not the entire amount needed to complete the project (this was a Kickstarter Rule as pointed out by Massively).  It was not stated on the KS page.

    So I ask you again.  Where did I "say they lied deliberately about how much money they needed"

    I didn't.

    But that doesn't stop YOU from putting words in my mouth... sorry "seems to indicate" doesn't cut it.  Neither does you AGAIN saying I need to "retract the claim that they deliberate withheld estimate cost information".  A claim I am still waiting for you to show me.

    Why do YOU think you can make up things I never said?  Is it OK because it's for the greater good of the game?  Do you not see the utter irony that you do EXACTLY what you complain about? There is a Psychology term called Projection.  Caspien can probably explain it to you as he has a degree in Psych.

    It makes every difference whether it is intentional, incompetence or simple estimate variance. The first is very bad. The second is a concern. The third is to be expected.

    The fact is that you highlighted it when discussing whether they broke KS rules by withholding information. How is that interpreted other than deliberate dishonesty?

    If they did it through incompetence or simple variance they did not break a rule.

    Where do I put words in your mouth above?
    Kickstarter rules do not differentiate between intentional or incompetence. 

    I listed exactly where you stated I said things I did not say.
    At this point, you are simply being silly.  Everyone can read what you posted so I will just be happy to leave it there for all to see.

    So anyhow,  any update on the big 0.5 State of Elyria?

    tweedledumb99

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,368
    Kyleran said:
    StaalBurgher said:

    How can I "be beat" by stating that Kickstarter is use at your own risk?
    Again you raise the strawman, let's return to the original point which you framed as an "absolute."

    "This is actually one of the best (only?) arguments against backing a crowdfunded game; it takes so long that you might not be interested once it is done."

    I disagreed saying a backer should also weigh a team's ability to successfully deliver the product.

    Factors to review include talent, funding plans, technology and realistic schedules.

    I then provided examples of how CU failed to meet promises on delivery dates despite appearing to be somewhat possible but clearly has missed its mark. 

    Had you simply agreed at this point the discussion would have ended, but you went off in tangents, responding more to other posters on topics they or you raised.

    I and others challenged Caspian on several of these points during the KSer as by then it was no longer our first rodeo, and for the most part our concerns played out as predicted.

    Setting aside specific project examples, do you still stand besides your original point of the "only" valid reason to not support a specific KSer is because the backer might lose interest?

    I agreed this was actually one factor, but I believe I've made a solid case to refute. 

    I forgot another important one, some people might not have disposable income they are willing to part with on the promise a game might be delivered "someday," especially when the track record for all MMORPG projects on estimating delivery has been abysmal to date.





    (1) I disagreed saying a backer should also weigh a team's ability to successfully deliver the product. Factors to review include talent, funding plans, technology and realistic schedules.

    Yes those are drawbacks for having a very open market to entry for people with ideas. The drawback is the backer has to do all the due diligence. My statements has to do with the claims that Kickstarter is broken, immoral, fraud, shouldn't exist etc.

    What you are talking about is having differing tiers of risk when the crowdfunding platform does due diligence to greater/lesser degrees. I agree with that completely. Right now Kickstarter does zero due diligence but this is also clearly stated. Hence there is "no argument against it".

    (2) Examples of COE are irrelevant as to whether there is a rational for Kickstarter, a crowdfunding platform with zero due diligence, to exist. It only serves as evidence of the risks of using it but it is still great that there is a platform where people can take those risks.

    (3) Setting aside specific project examples, do you still stand besides your original point of the "only" valid reason to not support a specific KSer is because the backer might lose interest?

    Ok, I see what has happened. Bad phrasing on my part, apologies. I am talking about crowdfunding/Kickstarter in general. Obviously, as an individual backer looking at a particular game you need to do your own due diligence. Which might not really be practical or possible I grant you, hence why you should probably have platforms with higher base DD done on your behalf. The platform would necessarily charge higher fees. So indie developers with more provable credentials can get more funding at the lowest tier. Devs with no reputation would get more funding at a higher tier but at a higher cost. Something like that.
    See  I thought we actually might have been closer in agreement, but we both got lost in the weeds a bit.

    For the record I am not arguing against crowdfunding in general and while there can be no guarantees I feel the project sponsors should endeavour to be as honest about projections as possible not only in the beginning but afterwards as well.

    As many know, it really "grinds my gears" when all of these indie projects go many years past their original promise date and yet feel no obligation to provide a revised projected release date.

    In all fairness, many backers don't seem to care, SC being the best example of the money flowing in with nary a date set for either the single player or multiplayer version. 

    Even CU who does it right by offering refunds hasn't seen a stampede of backers demanding refunds, so I guess it really doesn't matter so why should devs bother.

    I  have a misguided moral compass which believes in always telling the truth despite the consequences.

    I well understood Rorscach's position in the end of the Watchmen.






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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher Member UncommonPosts: 263
    edited February 15
    Kickstarter rules do not differentiate between intentional or incompetence. 

    They do not differentiate because it is not possible. They only break the KS rule if they are dishonest. So if they left information out due to simple incompetence, which you also claim, they did not break a KS rule.

    You right however, it is there for all to see.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,150
    Kickstarter rules do not differentiate between intentional or incompetence. 

    They do not differentiate because it is not possible. They only break the KS rule if they are dishonest. So if they left information out due to simply incompetence, which you claim, they did not break a KS rule.

    You right however, it is there for all to see.
    How do you draw that conclusion from this rule:
    The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project

    It says nothing about only breaking it if you are dishonest.   So please show me where it gives an exception for incompetence.  Or says you have to break the rules intentionally. 

    But you know what... don't bother.  As I said you have now entered silly land.

    Let's talk about the 0.5 update and temper tantrums.  

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher Member UncommonPosts: 263
    Kyleran said:

    As many know, it really "grinds my gears" when all of these indie projects go many years past their original promise date and yet feel no obligation to provide a revised projected release date.

    In all fairness, many backers don't seem to care, SC being the best example of the money flowing in with nary a date set for either the single player or multiplayer version. 

    Even CU who does it right by offering refunds hasn't seen a stampede of backers demanding refunds, so I guess it really doesn't matter so why should devs bother.
    I thought so too.

    Time overrun is a major problem. At what point can you realistically expect these guys to give up on their dream? Backers are still giving them money.

    I mean (1) aging and permadeath, (2) offline character persistance, (3) built-in medieval themed social/legal system. Somebody has to try this and a traditional publisher is not going to because the risk is too great.
  • TorrskTorrsk Member UncommonPosts: 221
    (4) It is irrelevant what he said about investors. They tried, they couldn't get any. Simple as.

    That isn't true, they could get investors. Some were interested in the game, even way back then. Caspian/SBS choose not to take them on. For what reason/s, SBS wasn't ever clear on that point. My guess, they wanted to put some form of loot boxes in the game. Something I have still been confused about, spark prices are insanely low. I can't see how they would keep their doors open after launch only having them. No doubt something investors didn't like, since every MMO seems to have some kind of loot boxes/store in them now days.

    I do remember around the same time Caspian saying how much money they needed to make the game. Was only meant to be a few million more. Which you could put down him being wrong to a number of things. I would've thought he guessed higher than lower. At the time being my clueless self, something I did believe. Being more wiser to the whole thing, wondered how I believed something that was clearly not true and wonder why he said it. Surely someone with experience within the field, would know how much an average MMO would take.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,995
    Sometimes the drama caused by public relations deaf developers is more fun than the actual game. 
    Slapshot1188StaalBurgher

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,561
    I'm going to prove the earth is flat before Caspien finishes CoE.
    DakeruMendel

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,727
    Slapshot1188 said:
    It was not clear that the amount being raised was not the entire amount needed to complete the project (this was a Kickstarter Rule as pointed out by Massively). 

    KS does not have any such rule, no matter how many times you gonna repeat that nonsene.
    parrotpholkSlapshot1188tweedledumb99Rhoklaw
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,150
    Gdemami said:
    Slapshot1188 said:
    It was not clear that the amount being raised was not the entire amount needed to complete the project (this was a Kickstarter Rule as pointed out by Massively). 

    KS does not have any such rule, no matter how many times you gonna repeat that nonsene.
    Source = Massively and Caspien did not dispute.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,157
    Gdemami said:
    Slapshot1188 said:
    It was not clear that the amount being raised was not the entire amount needed to complete the project (this was a Kickstarter Rule as pointed out by Massively). 

    KS does not have any such rule, no matter how many times you gonna repeat that nonsene.
    That’s the whole fucking problem. There are no rules worth a shit.

     Zero Accountability

    Kickstarter just gets their 5% regardless. They don’t give a shit how these projects are managed and they sure ain’t going to waste any of that hard earned 5% (sarcasm) in  policing their system.
    Mendel

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,727
    Source = Massively and Caspien did not dispute.
    Neither of them implies that such rule exists, that is just your own nonsensical plug.
    tweedledumb99
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,727
    edited February 15
    laserit said:
    That’s the whole fucking problem. 
    It is not a problem. You don't like it, don't pledge. Simple...

    We went trhough this already...
    laserittweedledumb99
  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher Member UncommonPosts: 263
    edited February 15
    They do not differentiate because it is not possible. They only break the KS rule if they are dishonest. So if they left information out due to simply incompetence, which you claim, they did not break a KS rule.

    You right however, it is there for all to see.
    How do you draw that conclusion from this rule:
    The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project

    It says nothing about only breaking it if you are dishonest.   So please show me where it gives an exception for incompetence.  Or says you have to break the rules intentionally. 
     
    Then why did you highlight "honest and clearly" if it is not relevant? Convenient at the time to imply dishonesty, but not so much now?

    Because clearly when the topic came up Caspian was very open that they did need more cash beyond the kickstarter. My impression was always that the funding goal was for a prototype with which to get further funding.

    Your claim is that they set out to deliberately mislead people. That claim is false.
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,157
    Gdemami said:
    laserit said:
    That’s the whole fucking problem. 
    It is not a problem. You don't like it, don't pledge. Simple...

    We went trhough this already...
    Resorting to snippets again are we. For one who is so against regulation you sure like to try and regulate conversation. 
    Gdemamitweedledumb99

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,911
    There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that SBS were deliberately dishonest in their KS proposal.

    Jeromy Walsh knew that saying the KS funding total was only meant to build a "demo for investors" would hugely dampen the enthusiasm of potential backers, so that fact was conveniently omitted...

    Sure, there may have been hardcore fans that were already aware of that fact, seeing as they were active on the CoE forums long before the KS arrived, but there would have been many others who would not have known that "hidden detail". New arrivals would have taken the KS info at face value, which is quite acceptable, seeing as that funding proposal should contain all pertinent facts regarding what is being funded.
    Gdemami
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