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After 800 Blizzard Employees Lose Their Jobs, Game Workers Unite Calls for Kotick Firing - MMORPG.c

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  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,742
    Aeander said:
    DMKano said:
    Gdemami said:
    That is why we can't have nice things...

    The self-entitlement of these disgruntled ex-employees is shocking...well, not so much, seems like a good riddance...

    Has it ever occurred to you that maybe us humans dont deserve nice things?

    Thinking that we do is the very entitlement you are so quick to speak against. 



    Every time I see Gdemami, my first thought is that either 1) Andrew Wilson or Bobby Kotick have nothing better to do than to troll a random forum or 2) their shoe polish must taste great to encourage such loving defense.

    I think the latter more likely.
    He's just fishing to add more WTF's to his already impressive record xD
    ScotTacticalZombeh

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,696
    edited February 15
    They need their entire PR team fired tbh cause the optics of activision blizzard have been horrible since early last year. All of the issues this company have been 'plagued' by are the result of poor communication and understanding their market. The most valid point they made about some of the firings were because of job duplication which of course happens and they want to hire on more developers, again fine. Announcing this along side 'record numbers' was the dumbest thing they could've done because to the public, its showing that they could afford to keep those people on even if their job wasn't necessary. There were just better ways of going about this. They'll probably end up hiring about 400 developers across the board (since they said they were wanting to hire on 20% more across all fields), but even so, so many dumb ways of conveying a very simple message. At least pretend to care about how you look to your consumers, not just your shareholders.
    GdemamiGorwe
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    Aeander said:
    DMKano said:
    Gdemami said:
    That is why we can't have nice things...

    The self-entitlement of these disgruntled ex-employees is shocking...well, not so much, seems like a good riddance...

    Has it ever occurred to you that maybe us humans dont deserve nice things?

    Thinking that we do is the very entitlement you are so quick to speak against. 



    Every time I see Gdemami, my first thought is that either 1) Andrew Wilson or Bobby Kotick have nothing better to do than to troll a random forum or 2) their shoe polish must taste great to encourage such loving defense.

    I think the latter more likely.
    Really? I just see a pointless wannabe desperately trying to artificially inflate their own self importance. If this person really was a big name in the industry, or frankly a big name anywhere, they would have very little reason to continue to hang about on a web site that they've time and time again shown they have nothing but contempt for.
    MadFrenchieIselinScotparrotpholkTacticalZombehMendel

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,105
    Start your own software companies, k bye.
    HatefullKootur
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Scorchien said:


    I in no way support the $30 million number for lots of reasons but if someone offered me that to run a company then I damn sure would not turn it down.  The job of a CEO is to steer the ship and make the company and shareholders money.  It is not to coddle the guy in cubicle 12 on the 3rd floor which is some poor AP / AR clerk.

    People deserve to make what someone will pay them for their services and should not be ashamed for doing so.  Wealth shaming is the new in thing to do though. 
    of course you wouldn't turn it down, because you are greedy. even though  you know it's wrong (as you stated) you would still take it. you might even feel slightly bad about it when you have to lay off 800 employees....but you would still take your 30 mil....like you said.

    greed is the pleasure of few and the suffering of many. i shame greed, not wealth. 
    Thanks for not answering the rest of that.  And do not misunderstand I do not think the number is wrong, I just think it is wrong for him to get it for personal reasons.  Also not greed otherwise maybe I would be rich but chose to serve in military instead of going other ways.  But this idea that everyone deserves something instead of earning it is bullshit.  No one deserves anything just because they breathe and are on this planet.  You have to work for it and move up.   Most CEO did not get handed that out of school with the exception of trust fund babies I guess like the current moron steering the country.  Most worked hard and sacraficed family, friends and other things to succeed in life.  That is what they chose. 

    Thanks for making a blanket assumption though.
    Social mobility in America lags behind other wealthy countries, though, which is where the rub comes in.  The American Dream literally hinges on the idea that you will get what you deserve based on how hard you work, but that's not nearly the truth.  In fact, the U.S. has some of the lowest social mobility among all industrialized nations (coming in after countries like Australia, Canada, Denmark, the U.K.; hell, Mongolia has higher social mobility than the U.S. does these days.  Mongolia.)

    The neighborhood you grew up is generally as effective a predictor of your future wealth as any other factor.  That's not something you choose as a child; it's something chosen for you by your parents (and, likely, chosen for them by their parents).  This effect can literally be a multiplier as high as 4 for the chances you move from the bottom rung to the top 20% of earners in America.  The neighborhoods that provide the highest chance also, coincidentally, already have the lowest amount of income inequality distribution within itself.

    Not only that, but studies also support the idea that Americans, by and large, overestimate the amount of social mobility they truly have.  They believe they have much more opportunity to climb that ladder than they truly do.
    I dunno man , imo most people are right where they put themselves ..

      Highest grade i graduated is 9th , grew up in SW Philly in a very rough neighborhood , spent 18 months of my life in Fed Prison ,,,

      And yet i now live in an upscale neighborhood in a beautiful 5/3, i retired at 53 and put 2 kids thru OSU ,(and have a 7 year old son at home now) by working hard and making good investments ..
    Not to sound contrary, but again: that entire post was merely relaying the results of peer-reviewed studies on the subject.  Anecdotal evidence doesn't change the rule outlined by those studies.

    Making good investments, for one, leaves at least part of the success up to chance.  That's the risk involved with any investment.
    CryomatrixGdemami

    image
  • xmentyxmenty Member UncommonPosts: 716
    edited February 15
    This is my personal view for working life. 
    2019. 
    1. There are no such thing as "iron rice bowl".  
    2. Work in moderate pace. Do not do OT. If you work too hard and get sick all the money will give to the doctor instead. So work moderately. 
    3. You do not have to be loyal as fk. ( I have seen workers work for 25 years and they got retrenched on the spot, 2 hrs to clear their things and fk off. This is how company will treat you no matter how good or hardworking you are. )
    4. It is not your company, its theirs. 
    5. You get fired, just moved on. 
    6. Get a driving license. Be a grab or cab driver while waiting for job interview.  
       
     
    TorvalGdemami

    Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language :)

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,871
    Torval said:
    They were fluff positions that aren't needed. Sorry the ride is over and I hope they get jobs soon, but that's were my support and sympathy ends.
    If that is truly the case, then it could be argued even more that Bobbie and other management personnel should be fired for wasting company assets on positions that were never needed in the first place.  Basing your position on fluff is an extremely slippery slope position.
    Could be, that's ActiBlizz's problem. Corporations restructure the top end sometimes. If that happens and those people lose their job, or they find a bunch of fluff VP and executive positions irrelevant and those people lose their jobs, then I'll say the same thing. "Sorry the ride is over and I hope you land on your feet."

    I can sympathize and empathize with losing a job and industry change, but I won't support tribalistic rampages and social engineering. This backlash is ridiculous to me. Everyone has an agenda and I see no reason to jump on board any side here.

    On top of that the fat that Blizzard cut was part of the hype train, esports, and buzz machine. That could all crumble tomorrow for all I care. It's been a scourge on gaming.
    ScorchienKootur
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • cronius77cronius77 Member UncommonPosts: 1,634
    This will fix itself. It has been shifting in other industries already as more employees leave different sectors because they are either underpaid or overworked or have no job security. This happened back at Mythic when EA took over, happened at SOE when they were bought out. I can keep going but everyone who games knows this already. Once a large publisher takes over studios are gutted to maximize profits. But to the point - if you believe that Act/Blizz did wrong vote with your wallet. Do not buy their products and that CEO will not be around much longer. To the rest thinking those employees were so entitled I'm willing to bet you sit around your house yelling at CNN with your hand down your pants with a "make america great again" red hat on your head.
    Kootur
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,234
    SBFord said:
    @Hatefull

    If you looked at my post earlier, I acknowledged that it is, of course, a known fact in the contractor community. We work without parachutes yet give just as much as any full time employee. It's a terrible position to be in because you need a job.

    As someone who has worked as a contractor for the last decade -- including this particular job -- I fully appreciate that, but it doesn't make it any less disheartening or frightening to be let go. We do what we do without insurance, without guarantees, and without thanks most of the time, yet we throw our whole selves into our work. A lot of these people were working to gain full time status at Blizzard, something that's happened a lot in the past. 
    I'm not 100% on board with the whole firing of Kotick thing, but I can say that whoever their PR people are should be given a stern talking-to because they bungled this horribly.
    I appreciate you pointing that out, and I am glad you are aware of it. Do not misunderstand me here, I do think the situation sucks, I do not like to see this happen at all. My response was more for the uninformed and while I quoted your post, I feel you probably knew how contracting works before I wrote my response, I just did not feel the need to be any more verbose than I already was.

    I am a contractor, different industry, obviously, but the exact same issues. I am a retired Marine as well and I get asked quite often about "high contractor pay". I laugh, yeah we do get paid a lot until you factor in: Paying for insurance, paying to move...constantly, having a big enough savings account to survive the lean months (God forbid years). I tell anyone looking to get into this industry unless you have a guaranteed income (military retirement, rich parents, etc) get a permanent full-time job. Unless you have a fallback, contracting really is NOT worth it.  Traveling nurses can disregard all of this.

    Anyway, I meant no disrespect nor animosity towards you, but it is laughable that people are calling for management to resign or the other asinine things people are saying.

    If everyone is so concerned, start a go fund me for the employees that were laid off.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,234
    black9ice said:

    SBFord said:



    the package they received seemed fair and reasonable.    This is a nonstarter all around.


    Contractors and part time employees got a pink slip, a final check and a foot in the ass sending them out the door.


    Just about everyone in this thread is freaking crazy. You are an at will employee period. If people would get through their thick skulls in 2019 that YOU or anyone else is not ENTITLED to anything but the air you breath, this whole world would be a much better place! But that is how society has shifted, GIVE ME, OWE ME, blah blah blah...
    Holy crap. What? You shouldn't be on edge 24/7 about whether or not you get to keep your job. Even as an at will employee, you should have some semblance of being treated fairly at work. How would you feel if tomorrow you walked into work and someone fired you on the spot. Would you be on a forum talking about how they are perfectly within their right to do that? Or would you be pissed. I'm guessing it's the latter. 
    Like it or lump it, at will employee is just that. You are employed at the will of the company. I don't like it, however, the only viable solution is a union which does not guarantee your employment is safe either.

    At will, contractor, temp, whatever, have a plan for when things go south.
    Asheram

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,660
    edited February 15
    perrin82 said:
    I'll play. Is it possible that these employees, while they may be great, became redundant?


    Some were but if you read what insiders are saying - that's not what happened at all.

    Read this

    https://kotaku.com/the-fallout-of-activision-blizzard-s-massive-layoffs-1832597892

    "Over the past week I’ve talked to around 20 people who were laid off or close to those being laid off, as well as others with knowledge as to what’s happening at Activision Blizzard. If there’s a consensus, it’s rage. Rage at Kotick’s comments, at the way Activision executives seemingly view their employees as numbers on a spreadsheet, at the callousness in which this layoff was handled. There’s rage at who was chosen to be laid off—two people told me that it felt like a random, haphazard practice—and rage that some important employees were let go. Some who had been laid off told me they had felt safe, expecting their studios or departments to not be affected. Even those who felt layoffs were necessary or justifiable said they were shocked by the scale, scope, and coldness from executives."


    The reality is there were people laid off that nobody expected - non-redundant, important positions were also affected. Like some key IT (top performers) people were let go that were with the company for more than 15 years - and yes some non-redundant folks too.

    This is why many at Blizzard are pissed off because there was no rhyme or reason for some of the people who got let go - and some also feel that people that SHOULD have been gone were spared, because they were chummy with certain managers. Typical office politics favoritism and bullshit that is the plague of many corporations

    It's a charlie foxtrot  - this was not handled well and many loyal employees have lost faith in Blizzard as a result.

    If anything it's a good wake up call for Blizzard employees to get the F out - top talent is not going to stick around for much longer now that the cat is out of the bag.
    blueturtle13MadFrenchieUngoodAsheramGdemamiHeraseparrotpholklaserit
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Hatefull said:
    black9ice said:

    SBFord said:



    the package they received seemed fair and reasonable.    This is a nonstarter all around.


    Contractors and part time employees got a pink slip, a final check and a foot in the ass sending them out the door.


    Just about everyone in this thread is freaking crazy. You are an at will employee period. If people would get through their thick skulls in 2019 that YOU or anyone else is not ENTITLED to anything but the air you breath, this whole world would be a much better place! But that is how society has shifted, GIVE ME, OWE ME, blah blah blah...
    Holy crap. What? You shouldn't be on edge 24/7 about whether or not you get to keep your job. Even as an at will employee, you should have some semblance of being treated fairly at work. How would you feel if tomorrow you walked into work and someone fired you on the spot. Would you be on a forum talking about how they are perfectly within their right to do that? Or would you be pissed. I'm guessing it's the latter. 
    Like it or lump it, at will employee is just that. You are employed at the will of the company. I don't like it, however, the only viable solution is a union which does not guarantee your employment is safe either.

    At will, contractor, temp, whatever, have a plan for when things go south.
    And employers wonder why people are not loyal and hard working.. what is their motive to give you their best if you look upon them as expendable.
    Palebanelaserit
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    @DMKano that article also has interesting notes about "suits" from Activision taking over the decision-making process to the detriment of those with a vision for the art of making games.  Surprise, surprise.
    Gdemami

    image
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,772
    Ungood said:
    And employers wonder why people are not loyal and hard working.. what is their motive to give you their best if you look upon them as expendable.
    It goes both ways. Employees come to a new job, stick around, dick around, do whatever, and then leave when someone offers them something better. An employee isnt' like, all things being equal, i'll stay with this company because they pay less out of loyalty . . . doesn't work that way. 
    parrotpholk
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Ungood said:
    And employers wonder why people are not loyal and hard working.. what is their motive to give you their best if you look upon them as expendable.
    It goes both ways. Employees come to a new job, stick around, dick around, do whatever, and then leave when someone offers them something better. An employee isnt' like, all things being equal, i'll stay with this company because they pay less out of loyalty . . . doesn't work that way. 
    I think a lot of the lost loyalty comes from employers gutting things like pensions.  Those are the types of long-term employment benefits that encouraged loyalty.
    TorvalCryomatrixHatefullparrotpholk

    image
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,234
    Ungood said:
    Hatefull said:
    black9ice said:

    SBFord said:



    the package they received seemed fair and reasonable.    This is a nonstarter all around.


    Contractors and part time employees got a pink slip, a final check and a foot in the ass sending them out the door.


    Just about everyone in this thread is freaking crazy. You are an at will employee period. If people would get through their thick skulls in 2019 that YOU or anyone else is not ENTITLED to anything but the air you breath, this whole world would be a much better place! But that is how society has shifted, GIVE ME, OWE ME, blah blah blah...
    Holy crap. What? You shouldn't be on edge 24/7 about whether or not you get to keep your job. Even as an at will employee, you should have some semblance of being treated fairly at work. How would you feel if tomorrow you walked into work and someone fired you on the spot. Would you be on a forum talking about how they are perfectly within their right to do that? Or would you be pissed. I'm guessing it's the latter. 
    Like it or lump it, at will employee is just that. You are employed at the will of the company. I don't like it, however, the only viable solution is a union which does not guarantee your employment is safe either.

    At will, contractor, temp, whatever, have a plan for when things go south.
    And employers wonder why people are not loyal and hard working.. what is their motive to give you their best if you look upon them as expendable.
    Do they? I am as loyal and hard working as anyone else, you will find that your name and reputation proceed you. If you are good, people will seek you out for projects (speaking to my world of contracting, I assume it is similar in other arena's) and if you suck, you will be the last one called and the first one let go. 

    None of the employers I work for wonder that at all, none of the people I work with take it personally when they get let go. Understanding is the key to acceptance, we KNOW we are temporary, hell the very nature of contracting is: you are working yourself out of work the moment you start. These projects have a timeline and at some point, the project (note here I am not saying career) come to an end, and then you rinse and repeat. Sometimes things go wrong and the project ends early, or you get injured an can't work. Such is life.

    Most employers would much rather keep a nice tidy group of people working for them as stability breeds happiness, and happiness breeds productivity, however, sometimes bad things happen to good people and down the road you go. Welcome to life, it is seldom fair and not always easy. Better you learn that young.
    Cryomatrixlaserit

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • AsheramAsheram Member EpicPosts: 3,899
    edited February 15
    Ungood said:
    And employers wonder why people are not loyal and hard working.. what is their motive to give you their best if you look upon them as expendable.
    It goes both ways. Employees come to a new job, stick around, dick around, do whatever, and then leave when someone offers them something better. An employee isnt' like, all things being equal, i'll stay with this company because they pay less out of loyalty . . . doesn't work that way. 
    I think a lot of the lost loyalty comes from employers gutting things like pensions.  Those are the types of long-term employment benefits that encouraged loyalty.
    And thats where unions come into play. But then there are right to work states like Arizona snip the cajones of unions.
    GdemamiHatefull
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,772
    DMKano said:
    perrin82 said:
    I'll play. Is it possible that these employees, while they may be great, became redundant?


    Some were but if you read what insiders are saying - that's not what happened at all.

    Read this

    https://kotaku.com/the-fallout-of-activision-blizzard-s-massive-layoffs-1832597892

    "Over the past week I’ve talked to around 20 people who were laid off or close to those being laid off, as well as others with knowledge as to what’s happening at Activision Blizzard. If there’s a consensus, it’s rage. Rage at Kotick’s comments, at the way Activision executives seemingly view their employees as numbers on a spreadsheet, at the callousness in which this layoff was handled. There’s rage at who was chosen to be laid off—two people told me that it felt like a random, haphazard practice—and rage that some important employees were let go. Some who had been laid off told me they had felt safe, expecting their studios or departments to not be affected. Even those who felt layoffs were necessary or justifiable said they were shocked by the scale, scope, and coldness from executives."


    The reality is there were people laid off that nobody expected - non-redundant, important positions were also affected. Like some key IT (top performers) people were let go that were with the company for more than 15 years - and yes some non-redundant folks too.

    This is why many at Blizzard are pissed off because there was no rhyme or reason for some of the people who got let go - and some also feel that people that SHOULD have been gone were spared, because they were chummy with certain managers. Typical office politics favoritism and bullshit that is the plague of many corporations

    It's a charlie foxtrot  - this was not handled well and many loyal employees have lost faith in Blizzard as a result.

    If anything it's a good wake up call for Blizzard employees to get the F out - top talent is not going to stick around for much longer now that the cat is out of the bag.

    Perceptions of employees and employers can vary widely. Being on both sides of the aisle, it is amazing, how one person sees something one way and their direct boss is completely different. 

    I sympathize with the workers, the whole thing sucks, i feel for them, it is terrible, but I wonder if in their view, they think it doesn't make sense, but then again, they're not seeing it from the executives view. Should the execs have explained things better, probably, could they have done it better probably, should those 800 employees not have been laid off . . . doubtful. 

    A lot of time people will not understand why someone does something and make up their own narrative when if they just asked, they'd see the logic behind it. 

    My whole point of my response is perception and truth can be wildly different. It doesn't change the reality for those that were laid off though and i'm not trying to change their reality. 

    You ever heard the phrase.

    "Don't hate the player, hate the game". .  . . hence, don't hate Kotick, hate capitalism. 

    It seems some of you dislike capitalism, that is fine, i'm not overly enamored by it either, but i understand how it works and thus argue why in a capitalistic society CEO salaries and professional athletes are what they are and why within the system it makes sense. When people can't understand how a CEO makes 250x more than a developer, the answer is obvious when you understand how business and capitalism work. It doesn't mean it is right, but that is the logic behind it. 
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • SirAgravaineSirAgravaine Member RarePosts: 520
    Unions are the worst.
    GdemamiparrotpholkKootur
  • OldSchoolGamerOldSchoolGamer Member UncommonPosts: 229
    You all just need to stop with this thought that they cut eSports.  That couldn't be further from the truth.  Today's letter to the community from Bobbie himself says that eSports is one of the things they are expanding upon.
    Palebane
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 2,943
    Unions are the worst.
    Why?

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    GdemamiHatefull
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • jonrd463jonrd463 Member UncommonPosts: 607
    Asheram said:
    Ungood said:
    And employers wonder why people are not loyal and hard working.. what is their motive to give you their best if you look upon them as expendable.
    It goes both ways. Employees come to a new job, stick around, dick around, do whatever, and then leave when someone offers them something better. An employee isnt' like, all things being equal, i'll stay with this company because they pay less out of loyalty . . . doesn't work that way. 
    I think a lot of the lost loyalty comes from employers gutting things like pensions.  Those are the types of long-term employment benefits that encouraged loyalty.
    And thats where unions come into play. But then there are right to work states like Arizona snip the cajones of unions.
    Unions are a two edged sword that are quickly outgrowing their usefulness. I work for a very large company that has sites that are both union and non-union. The non-union sites are proving to be the most productive and with the overall higher morale of the two. There are more opportunities for advancement because job roles that are traditionally union and non-union within a union shop are allowed to interact, collaborate, and innovate in a much more cooperative way. By contrast, when you have defined limits on who can do what and when, you stunt the ability for different groups to partner on projects. Instead, you introduce artificial barriers that hinder communication, and introduce all sorts of rules and regs that do nothing but increase costs without any value added. 

    All unions are today is just another bureaucratic layer contributing to bloat and ensuring nothing for the workforce but mediocrity. Individual excellence is frowned upon because of some ridiculous sense of it not being fair that a high performing worker is making his peers look bad simply because he can do the job better. 

    Our company is slowly moving work away from the union shops, and it's starting to show. 2018 was an amazing year, morale is high, and our future prospects are booming.
    Hatefull

    "You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,816
    jonrd463 said:
    Unions are a two edged sword that are quickly outgrowing their usefulness.
    ....to outgrown usefullness, they would need to be a point they were ever usefull in the first place.
    Kootur
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 9,821
    yet I still have to correct people by letting them know Activision is in charge...
    Gdemami
  • BossChonoBossChono Member UncommonPosts: 23
    jonrd463 said:
    Asheram said:
    Ungood said:
    And employers wonder why people are not loyal and hard working.. what is their motive to give you their best if you look upon them as expendable.
    It goes both ways. Employees come to a new job, stick around, dick around, do whatever, and then leave when someone offers them something better. An employee isnt' like, all things being equal, i'll stay with this company because they pay less out of loyalty . . . doesn't work that way. 
    I think a lot of the lost loyalty comes from employers gutting things like pensions.  Those are the types of long-term employment benefits that encouraged loyalty.
    And thats where unions come into play. But then there are right to work states like Arizona snip the cajones of unions.
    Unions are a two edged sword that are quickly outgrowing their usefulness. I work for a very large company that has sites that are both union and non-union. The non-union sites are proving to be the most productive and with the overall higher morale of the two. There are more opportunities for advancement because job roles that are traditionally union and non-union within a union shop are allowed to interact, collaborate, and innovate in a much more cooperative way. By contrast, when you have defined limits on who can do what and when, you stunt the ability for different groups to partner on projects. Instead, you introduce artificial barriers that hinder communication, and introduce all sorts of rules and regs that do nothing but increase costs without any value added. 

    All unions are today is just another bureaucratic layer contributing to bloat and ensuring nothing for the workforce but mediocrity. Individual excellence is frowned upon because of some ridiculous sense of it not being fair that a high performing worker is making his peers look bad simply because he can do the job better. 

    Our company is slowly moving work away from the union shops, and it's starting to show. 2018 was an amazing year, morale is high, and our future prospects are booming.


    Depends on the industry really.  In my work all the different trades work together.  Not an operator available, someone else hop in the machine.  Not enough carpenters, someone grab a saw and start cutting.  Not enough laborers, carpenters will grab a shovel.  Not enough finishers, hell yeah I can work a bull float.  Only the true hardcore union people complain and they tend to not last long.  Of course my company is pretty good.  If you show initiative you will get advancement opportunities if you want them.  If you are lazy they will drop you.  Union doesn't matter

    Non union companies come out and they take twice as long as us.  I would milk it too if I was getting paid 10 bucks an hour to jackhammer.   Once we built an entire new bridge in 5 weeks while the non union guys were still doing patches down the way.  We ended up finishing it for them in 2 days because the road had to be opened lol.

    Worked on a factory renovation one winter and it was a totally different scene.   In no way shape or form does a laborer do carpenter work.  They would rather we lean on a broom waiting for 8 hours.  Nothing got done and the company ate it hard in overruns.  I was super happy to get out of there.

    I don't know how unions work in other environments.  Never worked in an office or on an assembly line and never wanted to.  So I can't speak for them all.   I will agree the union heads are in it for themselves just like bigwigs in these software conglomerates.  They don't care about us at all as long as we pay our dues.  Hell I'm convinced mine is still run by the mafia

    tweedledumb99
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