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Is Balance All That?

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 16,947
    edited February 2019
    I just started a PvP character in LoA.  He’s not going to be equal to some GM mage with all decked out equipment.  That’s OK.

    Hes going to use Piercing(Kryss), wear Light Armor, get some skill in Healing and Vigor and Blocking(shield).  Do not really care if another skill mix is “better”.  I will pick my fights and have fun anyhow.

    AlBQuirkyUngood

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    Imho in PvP balance is everything.
    As Ungood already stated it is about who is the better player.
    Unbalanced PvP leads to boring gameplay as everyone plays the same few op builds and weaker player have even less chance because pro gamers also adapt faster to new fotm builds (as well as the play style as the equip to play it).

    In PvE I have the opinion that Balance kills the fun.
    PvE is all about living in an alternative world and here I want to have diversity. If everybody runs around with the sword of dragon slaying it is boring. Even if it is a few hundred.

    Of course this makes balancing PvPvE games much harder and here I prefer systems like GW1 and Mortal where the game is pretty balanced in terms of power creep (where the difference between best weapons and worst is only a small percentage and the HP difference is small)

    Overall this is the best approach imo.
    The magic sword is also only a sword in the end and although it is much sharper and durable, in the end it kills you not much faster than a rusty one


    You will discover that the premise of a better player winning in PvP is somewhat of an unpopular opinion on these forums, which is rather odd, because the term PvP means "Player vs Player" so, it should be self evident that the better player would win, but that is not the case here.

    As for what the win condition is, or what skill set is required to win, that is based on the game, same as the PvE content, and a slew of other things.

    My feelings is, that I treat all games the same in that regard, If that is not what you want to play, than don't play it. I have stopped PvE raiding, because I don't want to put up with the BS surrounding it, if a game has Raids, I don't play it, and move on with my life.

    But you will find people on these forums that will make it off that only their idea of what a win condition should exist, hence the crying about reflexes, and coordination, being the set skills in some PvP games. The reality is, that is what the game set as being the skill set needed to win, that is what it takes, deal with it or don't play. Just like some MMO's that allow open world PvP and allow players to vastly out gear and over level other players, grinding their way to power as opposed to possessing any direct skills.

    Now, personally, I do consider those games PvP as they are in reality Toon vs Toon. I also do not play them, because I disagree with their entire premise, but, you will see that many here not only love that kind of game (Which should warn you about where they are on the PvP skill set) and believe that is the only way PvP should be played.

    Take that as you will, with this discussion.
    Slapshot1188EponyxDamor
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    AlBQuirky said:
    This is an awesome post! It makes me wonder why players NOT at the top ("There can be only one!") log in everyday? They have very little chance of winning, unless they only fight worse players than themselves.
    Let me ask you a question. Do you quit a game if you are not the best at it? The game itself does not matter, but when you get into the game, and realize that there are players that are simply better at this game than you will ever be, do you quit?

    The moment you realize that you will not be among the top 1% of the players in that game, do you Just pack it up and go home, play some other game that you can be the best at? 

    This kinda reminds me of other discussions when players talk about Challenge in PvE games, and some players, that challenge is beyond, and you will often hear "But you can do other things", or "Just because you can't have everything is no reason to quit that's very petty" and the ever popular "Shouldn't the better players get something too" often with cries that people should not have access to everything in the game, that there should be rewards for skill, time investment, and the like, for the better players.

    I believe in those discussions, you have supported the idea of challenge in PvE games, for there to be things for the better players.

    And now.. you are wondering why the "Non Best" players in a PvP game wouldn't quit.. I guess for the same reasons why the non-best players in a PvE game don't quit.

    Unless.. of course, you are the kind of player that unless you are the best, you quit, then I suppose you rightfully wouldn't understand.
    Slapshot1188
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member EpicPosts: 1,267
    Ungood said:
    I can, have and did.. you might want to pull your head out of your rectum and do the same.
    I did.  You stated your opinion then argued with everyone who had an opposing opinion.  If you actually went back and read, you would see this.
    Slapshot1188
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    Ungood said:
    I can, have and did.. you might want to pull your head out of your rectum and do the same.
    I did.  You stated your opinion then argued with everyone who had an opposing opinion.  If you actually went back and read, you would see this.
    Well, it seems you can't read.. should have pulled your head out of your rectum first, I only responded to people that tried to tell me I was wrong first.. But.. hey.. don't let facts get in the way your delusions.
    Slapshot1188
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited February 2019
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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood said:Which should warn you about where they are on the PvP skill set.
    For me this attitude is the biggest turn off with the PvP community.
    The casual dismissal of players because of ability is an attitude I cannot condone.

    You shouldn't listen to that person's opinion because they're obviously scrubs.

    ^--- Wow, just wow.
    Nice Cherry Pick and Ad Homin.. goes well with your Red Herrings and Strawmen.. fits your skill level in posting.

    Here is the whole quote.
    Ungood said:

    Now, personally, I do consider those games PvP as they are in reality Toon vs Toon. I also do not play them, because I disagree with their entire premise, but, you will see that many here not only love that kind of game (Which should warn you about where they are on the PvP skill set) and believe that is the only way PvP should be played.

    But you know.. Truth Hurts, if your PvP skills is that you need to depend on your Toon Overpowering your Opponent to Win for you.. you are not someone that should be talking about the merits of what makes a good PvP game.

    That's just truth.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    Wargfoot said:

    It is odd that person would be against options/variety in PvP as well.

    I don't know how someone enjoying unbalanced RvR hurts you personally or why someone would rage against it or look down on those players.
    No one is stopping YOU (or others like YOU) from enjoying totally unbalanced RvR, or playing games were you need to depend on your toon to win for you, in fact, IIRC many of those games still exist. Play them till your fingers bleed and eyes fall out for all I care.. have the fun of your life in them. I wish you well and many hours of fun. 

    But keep in mind while no one is stopping you from playing them... not even me.. very few will join you, and yet again... not even me.

    and the insults go both ways.. don't play victim with me, after all your insults about how I must be a simpleton player.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 16,947
    Groundhog Day alert!

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    This thread has at least another 3 pages of tread left on the tires.
    Ungood

    image
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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 16,947
    This thread has at least another 3 pages of tread left on the tires.
    I dunno... I think he’s tried the GroungHog Day routine for discredited info 3 times now.  I think we just have 1 more to go.   I’m betting less than 3 pages. Especially if people stop tossing him crumbs.

    Remember WOPR: The only winning move is not to play. 
    Ungood

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    The only Groundhog routine going on, is this annoying troll popping in from time to time talking about a Groundhog.


    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    Wargfoot said:
    Am I allowed to respond to this or do I have to best you in a PvP match before my opinion may be considered worthy?

     I'd settle for just not being a troll.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Am I allowed to respond to this or do I have to best you in a PvP match before my opinion may be considered worthy?

     I'd settle for just not being a troll.
    If you keep practicing you'll get there.
    In your "Fun" thread I think you're doing a good job.
    Well, Thank you for not being a deplorable Troll in that thread at least.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Am I allowed to respond to this or do I have to best you in a PvP match before my opinion may be considered worthy?

     I'd settle for just not being a troll.
    If you keep practicing you'll get there.
    In your "Fun" thread I think you're doing a good job.
    Well, Thank you for not being a deplorable Troll in that thread at least.
    Why does the phrase, "I know you are, but what am I?" come to mind?
    As it turns out, I did  learn everything I needed to know in Kindergarten.
    That is obvious, as it seems you never left.

    Are we done now, or do you have a few more lame troll posts left in you? If you keep this trolling up long enough, we will be graced by that other Troll that keeps talking about groundhogs.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • Morgenes83Morgenes83 Member UncommonPosts: 286
    Some people here think that no balance gives them a chance to win against "better" players, but mostly that's not the case.

    The reality is enemies which not only have better reflexes, but also better gear, so it's even easier for them to win.

    When a new fotm arrives those people have the needed classes/items after a few days in the best quality, while us normal people still have to grind for weeks.

    If you win against other players in such games is either a worse player or pure luck.
    But winning against a better player because you have the bad balance on your side is mostly not the case.

    If someone "plays" better than you and also has much better gear the chances to win are even smaller.
    You having better gear than them is mostly not the case.

    Exceptions are counter classes, but that's something I consider to be balance.

    I prefer a balanced game where I have a chance when playing smart or when the enemy makes a mistake than some game where I have to play 4 hours a day to do at least a bit damage to the enemy before he one shots me or kills me in stun lock.

    Nothing is more annoying than power creep in PvP doing no damage to someone because he played more.
    And that's why PvP MMOs are dying.
    People rather play MOBAs or BRs because the chances are even.

    As for PvE as already said my opinion is the exact opposite
    AlBQuirky

    1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO 

    Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 16,947
    Some people here think that no balance gives them a chance to win against "better" players, but mostly that's not the case.

    The reality is enemies which not only have better reflexes, but also better gear, so it's even easier for them to win.

    When a new fotm arrives those people have the needed classes/items after a few days in the best quality, while us normal people still have to grind for weeks.

    If you win against other players in such games is either a worse player or pure luck.
    But winning against a better player because you have the bad balance on your side is mostly not the case.

    If someone "plays" better than you and also has much better gear the chances to win are even smaller.
    You having better gear than them is mostly not the case.

    Exceptions are counter classes, but that's something I consider to be balance.

    I prefer a balanced game where I have a chance when playing smart or when the enemy makes a mistake than some game where I have to play 4 hours a day to do at least a bit damage to the enemy before he one shots me or kills me in stun lock.

    Nothing is more annoying than power creep in PvP doing no damage to someone because he played more.
    And that's why PvP MMOs are dying.
    People rather play MOBAs or BRs because the chances are even.

    As for PvE as already said my opinion is the exact opposite
    That’s what we call a Strawman.  Nobody is arguing that Fortnite is not the most popular game on the planet.

    That has zero to do with an MMORPG.  By their very nature MMORPGs encourage grouping.  The opposite of the BR 1 vs all mentality.

    You can implement mechanics to mitigate level differences... but that’s meaningless in an MMORPG.  In these games you have a wide variance in group sizes and communication capabilities.  

    Trying to balance an MMORPG at the character level is a fools errand.

    For those that want a sporting event PvP with fair and balanced play... enjoy Fortnite.  It’s a good game for what it is although I prefer PUBG.

    Last thing I want is for my MMORPG to try and mirror Fortnite.

    AlBQuirkySteelhelmultimateduck

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    Some people here think that no balance gives them a chance to win against "better" players, but mostly that's not the case.

    The reality is enemies which not only have better reflexes, but also better gear, so it's even easier for them to win.

    When a new fotm arrives those people have the needed classes/items after a few days in the best quality, while us normal people still have to grind for weeks.

    If you win against other players in such games is either a worse player or pure luck.
    But winning against a better player because you have the bad balance on your side is mostly not the case.

    If someone "plays" better than you and also has much better gear the chances to win are even smaller.
    You having better gear than them is mostly not the case.

    Exceptions are counter classes, but that's something I consider to be balance.

    I prefer a balanced game where I have a chance when playing smart or when the enemy makes a mistake than some game where I have to play 4 hours a day to do at least a bit damage to the enemy before he one shots me or kills me in stun lock.

    Nothing is more annoying than power creep in PvP doing no damage to someone because he played more.
    And that's why PvP MMOs are dying.
    People rather play MOBAs or BRs because the chances are even.

    As for PvE as already said my opinion is the exact opposite
    I did try to explain that a game being off balance actually worked against them, and that imbalance only made things worse than the game trying to build a more fair balanced fight.

    But, keep in mind a lot of the people that are opposing this, are seeing things through rose colored glasses from a era and game that was made in yesteryear. Before rise of Power Gamers, and Hardcore Min/Max players became more a norm. So they still have this fantasy that they cling to, that it was somehow better, and, truth be told, maybe during that era of time past, time they had a better chance.

    But, Such would not be the case today as you clearly pointed out, the "good" players would simply monopolize on any advantage they could get, would be geared better and faster than anyone not as hardcore, and make the presence of any imbalance just that much more pronounced.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

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