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Ashes 101 - Is it true Ashes is a BR Game now?

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,296
    nestharus said:
    I want to pose the following argument. EQ Next didn't fail because of the testing methodology. Landmark didn't cause it to fail. Jeff mentioned that EQ Next more or less failed because the technology wasn't ready. I think you all remember Storybricks, right? Remember what the EQ Next AI was like? They didn't have any because Storybricks couldn't deliver. I think that EQ Next failed because of Storybricks, not Landmark. I think that H1Z1 and EQ Next failed for different reasons and both happened to use the same testing strategies.

    Fortnite became a BR for a completely separate reason. That was not a proof of concept. They actually introduced another mode. That's not a valid comparison.

    Jeff made it very clear that the tech was there for Ashes of Creation, so it wouldn't suffer the same fate that EQ Next did. There is no indication that a proof of concept would cause Ashes of Creation to fail and there is no way to prove that Landmark is what caused EQ Next to fail.


    On to the ridiculous theory that Steven is looking for a quick money flip. This is the same guy that stated he would refund ALL kickstarter money if the MMORPG didn't release. That promise is still there. Doesn't sound very greedy, does it? Not only that but he put $30,000,000 of his own money into the project. Would he really want his own project to fail? Would he actually earn his money back on the BR? This is a guy that loves MMORPGs and has lived MMORPGs for a lot of his life. He started Ashes of Creation because he realized that he wanted his ideal MMORPG to become a reality and had the money to make it happen.

    Why would a gamer, like us? Somebody that loves MMORPGs as much as we do? Somebody that actually gets to make their own that a lot of people only dream of? Why would that guy want his own MMORPG to fail for a bloody BR? Makes no sense. Not to mention he'd get to refund all of that kickstarter money out of his own pocket. That's a serious lose-lose.

    One of the key qualifying aspects to even work at Intrepid Studios is being passionate for MMORPGs. Whenever they've hired a new person on, they've always talked about how they were passionate for MMORPGs and wanted Ashes of Creation to succeed. You guys make it sound like they are some corporate money making machine out of touch with the players. They aren't EA. They aren't Nexon. They are a company made of MMORPG players.
    So much wrong with the above, but I have no reason to play the irresistible force to your immovable object.  Anyone interested can read the earlier posts and make their own decisions.

    As I told the earlier guy:  You can believe all their bullshit all you want.  I have no desire to convince you otherwise.  But be sure to come back and check in with us in 6 months for an update.
    Angreeegamer

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

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  • timtracktimtrack Member UncommonPosts: 541
    This genius found a way to take paid alpha to the next level. Tech-demo with cash-shop.
    Slapshot1188SpottyGekko
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    nestharus said:
    ...

    During the stream when he announced apoc, he said that if he was doing it he wanted to make it a self-funding product so that it wouldn't take away funds from the MMORPG.
    That sounds wonderful, until you examine it more closely...

    Development of the BR game would be paid entirely by funds from the MMO dev budget !

    Then the earnings from the BR game would (hopefully) be used to repay that "loan". So the BR game better make money...

    Furthermore, "self-funding product" sounds a lot like something that will have a life of its own, with continued development, etc...
  • ramdyramdy Member UncommonPosts: 70
    I Downloaded the game to try it and well, I was expecting an MMORPG not a battle royale-like game. If I want that, I already have Fortnite which looks like 100 times better.

    Where is the persistent world, the resource gathering, quests, exploration...? 
    Kylerannatpick
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,493
    ramdy said:
    I Downloaded the game to try it and well, I was expecting an MMORPG not a battle royale-like game. If I want that, I already have Fortnite which looks like 100 times better.

    Where is the persistent world, the resource gathering, quests, exploration...? 

    You just had to know what you were downloading,  they even changed its name to Apocalypse to help people avoid confusion.

    If not, you should probably visit some gaming web sites first before purchasing. 

    I'm thinking maybe it's not a total coincidence the time of your post is 4:20.

    :D
    SpottyGekko

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • CicceroCiccero Member UncommonPosts: 184
    it's NOT a BR game...it's a P2w BR GAME....
    After this weekend's beta sneak peak, I decided the game is not worth my time. Money lost, lesson learned. If I wanted a p2w, midevil version of Fortnight I would have asked for it, looked for it, etc,but I really could care less for the genre. They can claim anything they like, but what I played this weekend was trash. 
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 290
    edited January 2019
    nestharus said:

    /Snip

    Jeff made it very clear that the tech was there for Ashes of Creation, so it wouldn't suffer the same fate that EQ Next did. There is no indication that a proof of concept would cause Ashes of Creation to fail and there is no way to prove that Landmark is what caused EQ Next to fail.


    On to the ridiculous theory that Steven is looking for a quick money flip. This is the same guy that stated he would refund ALL kickstarter money if the MMORPG didn't release. That promise is still there. Doesn't sound very greedy, does it? Not only that but he put $30,000,000 of his own money into the project. Would he really want his own project to fail? Would he actually earn his money back on the BR? This is a guy that loves MMORPGs and has lived MMORPGs for a lot of his life. He started Ashes of Creation because he realized that he wanted his ideal MMORPG to become a reality and had the money to make it happen.

    Why would a gamer, like us? Somebody that loves MMORPGs as much as we do? Somebody that actually gets to make their own that a lot of people only dream of? Why would that guy want his own MMORPG to fail for a bloody BR? Makes no sense. Not to mention he'd get to refund all of that kickstarter money out of his own pocket. That's a serious lose-lose.

    One of the key qualifying aspects to even work at Intrepid Studios is being passionate for MMORPGs. Whenever they've hired a new person on, they've always talked about how they were passionate for MMORPGs and wanted Ashes of Creation to succeed. You guys make it sound like they are some corporate money making machine out of touch with the players. They aren't EA. They aren't Nexon. They are a company made of MMORPG players.
    Regarding the promise to refund, what date did Steven set by which the MMORPG must launch, in order to not trigger refunds?

    Obviously they set a date when the MMORPG needs to launch, for this promise to have any meaning (otherwise they could just say it's in development indefinitely without triggering Steven's promise) - I'm curious what date that is.
  • XthosXthos Member UncommonPosts: 2,734
    I admit, I haven't been closely following the game, I worry it is just going to be the same thing I am playing now (Archeage).  I downloaded the beta/stress test thing and I was quiet confused as to wtf I was playing...as it sure wasn't a mmorpg.   Did it out of boredom, as Gamigo is making Trion look like the most competent company in the world, with all the exploits they have running on Archeage now, and the deafening silence and inaction.  I ran around, trying to find some monster to fight, path to leveling, getting new skills....I found nothing.  Yeah, if I would of read the forums more, I guess I would of known...But I have never downloaded a mmorpg beta and not found a mmorpg to play.  Very odd.
  • AvanahAvanah Member RarePosts: 1,550
    Once Pantheon releases, everything else is irrelevant.
    delete5230Vutar

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,296
    Xthos said:
      Yeah, if I would of read the forums more, I guess I would of known...But I have never downloaded a mmorpg beta and not found a mmorpg to play.  Very odd.
    To be fair I think their Forums have been down for over a month now...

    Kyleran

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 290
    Avanah said:
    Once Pantheon releases, everything else is irrelevant.
    Except Crowfall and CU which are built around PvP, and Star Citizen for people who want space stuff, and Ashes for people who want both PvE and PvP in the same game...
    Angreeegamer
  • jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 383
    ramdy said:
    I Downloaded the game to try it and well, I was expecting an MMORPG not a battle royale-like game. If I want that, I already have Fortnite which looks like 100 times better.

    Where is the persistent world, the resource gathering, quests, exploration...? 

    That would be in the Alpha 1 testing coming in Q2 - 2019.

    But reading what everyone has said, yes it has been a marketing/PR nightmare with how they did this.

    The last seven months or so have been one strike-out after another.  
    Slapshot1188
  • PreparedPrepared Member UncommonPosts: 102
    Wizardry said:
    LOL....

    when Wow arrived,tons of copy cat mmorpg's cropped up.


    WoW was a copy cat MMORPG of Everquest.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,976
    edited February 2019
    nestharus said:
    I want to pose the following argument. EQ Next didn't fail because of the testing methodology. Landmark didn't cause it to fail. Jeff mentioned that EQ Next more or less failed because the technology wasn't ready. I think you all remember Storybricks, right? Remember what the EQ Next AI was like? They didn't have any because Storybricks couldn't deliver. I think that EQ Next failed because of Storybricks, not Landmark. I think that H1Z1 and EQ Next failed for different reasons and both happened to use the same testing strategies.

    Fortnite became a BR for a completely separate reason. That was not a proof of concept. They actually introduced another mode. That's not a valid comparison.

    Jeff made it very clear that the tech was there for Ashes of Creation, so it wouldn't suffer the same fate that EQ Next did. There is no indication that a proof of concept would cause Ashes of Creation to fail and there is no way to prove that Landmark is what caused EQ Next to fail.


    On to the ridiculous theory that Steven is looking for a quick money flip. This is the same guy that stated he would refund ALL kickstarter money if the MMORPG didn't release. That promise is still there. Doesn't sound very greedy, does it? Not only that but he put $30,000,000 of his own money into the project. Would he really want his own project to fail? Would he actually earn his money back on the BR? This is a guy that loves MMORPGs and has lived MMORPGs for a lot of his life. He started Ashes of Creation because he realized that he wanted his ideal MMORPG to become a reality and had the money to make it happen.

    Why would a gamer, like us? Somebody that loves MMORPGs as much as we do? Somebody that actually gets to make their own that a lot of people only dream of? Why would that guy want his own MMORPG to fail for a bloody BR? Makes no sense. Not to mention he'd get to refund all of that kickstarter money out of his own pocket. That's a serious lose-lose.

    One of the key qualifying aspects to even work at Intrepid Studios is being passionate for MMORPGs. Whenever they've hired a new person on, they've always talked about how they were passionate for MMORPGs and wanted Ashes of Creation to succeed. You guys make it sound like they are some corporate money making machine out of touch with the players. They aren't EA. They aren't Nexon. They are a company made of MMORPG players.
    Umm nope .

    It did not fail either,the business failed,smedley failed the business and that is why it all went down.I have no doubts that even if the game managed to get done,it would be a half assed effort but still do ok in the eyes of sales,my guess likely 1-2 million maybe a ceiling of 5 million.Point being,it would not have failed if they had the money to keep going.

    Landmark was NEVER meant to be a game,that was a cash grab to try and fund EQNext,i thought that would be very obvious by now.SOE simply was broke,they could not afford to do anything.

    As to this game,Ashes and the question,i just laugh because again it looks so obvious to me.This game idea was NOT selling  at least not good enough in the developers eyes.It would create a VERY negative atmosphere if they simply came out and said "we give up"but we are going to try and salvage something by turning it into a BR game.If they make enough money then they can get back to developing a mmorpg and nobody would know the difference.
    this team simply tried to scramble for what in their eyes was the best chance for fast success to generate cash,so they say PUBG..Fortnite and said let's try that.

    You do NOT TEST rpg combat in a BR setting,that is simply just dumb,so i have no doubts it was simply a BR test and NOTHING more.


    Arterius

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 2,847
    Wizardry said:
    nestharus said:
    I want to pose the following argument. EQ Next didn't fail because of the testing methodology. Landmark didn't cause it to fail. Jeff mentioned that EQ Next more or less failed because the technology wasn't ready. I think you all remember Storybricks, right? Remember what the EQ Next AI was like? They didn't have any because Storybricks couldn't deliver. I think that EQ Next failed because of Storybricks, not Landmark. I think that H1Z1 and EQ Next failed for different reasons and both happened to use the same testing strategies.

    Fortnite became a BR for a completely separate reason. That was not a proof of concept. They actually introduced another mode. That's not a valid comparison.

    Jeff made it very clear that the tech was there for Ashes of Creation, so it wouldn't suffer the same fate that EQ Next did. There is no indication that a proof of concept would cause Ashes of Creation to fail and there is no way to prove that Landmark is what caused EQ Next to fail.


    On to the ridiculous theory that Steven is looking for a quick money flip. This is the same guy that stated he would refund ALL kickstarter money if the MMORPG didn't release. That promise is still there. Doesn't sound very greedy, does it? Not only that but he put $30,000,000 of his own money into the project. Would he really want his own project to fail? Would he actually earn his money back on the BR? This is a guy that loves MMORPGs and has lived MMORPGs for a lot of his life. He started Ashes of Creation because he realized that he wanted his ideal MMORPG to become a reality and had the money to make it happen.

    Why would a gamer, like us? Somebody that loves MMORPGs as much as we do? Somebody that actually gets to make their own that a lot of people only dream of? Why would that guy want his own MMORPG to fail for a bloody BR? Makes no sense. Not to mention he'd get to refund all of that kickstarter money out of his own pocket. That's a serious lose-lose.

    One of the key qualifying aspects to even work at Intrepid Studios is being passionate for MMORPGs. Whenever they've hired a new person on, they've always talked about how they were passionate for MMORPGs and wanted Ashes of Creation to succeed. You guys make it sound like they are some corporate money making machine out of touch with the players. They aren't EA. They aren't Nexon. They are a company made of MMORPG players.
    Umm nope .

    It did not fail either,the business failed,smedley failed the business and that is why it all went down.I have no doubts that even if the game managed to get done,it would be a half assed effort but still do ok in the eyes of sales,my guess likely 1-2 million maybe a ceiling of 5 million.Point being,it would not have failed if they had the money to keep going.

    Landmark was NEVER meant to be a game,that was a cash grab to try and fund EQNext,i thought that would be very obvious by now.SOE simply was broke,they could not afford to do anything.

    As to this game,Ashes and the question,i just laugh because again it looks so obvious to me.This game idea was NOT selling  at least not good enough in the developers eyes.It would create a VERY negative atmosphere if they simply came out and said "we give up"but we are going to try and salvage something by turning it into a BR game.If they make enough money then they can get back to developing a mmorpg and nobody would know the difference.
    this team simply tried to scramble for what in their eyes was the best chance for fast success to generate cash,so they say PUBG..Fortnite and said let's try that.

    You do NOT TEST rpg combat in a BR setting,that is simply just dumb,so i have no doubts it was simply a BR test and NOTHING more.


    I agree with you there. BR is a terrible place to test combat for a MMO and I will fight anyone on that. Balance for a BR is much different then a MMO
    Currently playing: Outer Worlds (Xbox One X)

    Currently Reading: Skaven Slayer (Gotrek and Felix Book 2)

    Currently Writing: Champions of Legend Book 1 (3rd Draft)

    Currently Watching: Oz (Season 4), Soprano's (Season 1)


  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,528
    People are spreading their feelings.... Others are explaining it away. 

    I can sum it up with this: 
    By testing BR and only testing the PvP half of the game is making people realize this game will be a PvP game..... People now realize the PvE will always be minor.

    This is a blow to all the PvE only players.  The ones that were going to try and squeeze some sort of PvE atmosphere.

    The feeling of hope is now gone for them.


    I'll explain the same thing differently:
    Ashes of Creation will be half PvP and half PvE.  By displaying a BR, people now realize PvP will always dominate the game...... The PvE players that don't like PvP games now know this game is not for them.



    Adding a few towns to protect is looking like an afterthought.... Giving the PvP meaning.
    Kyleran
  • GaladournGaladourn Member RarePosts: 1,810
    I don't like the changes made to their site, the absence of fora and the fact that my account appears to be missing my kickstarter pledge package information. Other than that, all is well..../facepalm
  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 2,847
    People are spreading their feelings.... Others are explaining it away. 

    I can sum it up with this: 
    By testing BR and only testing the PvP half of the game is making people realize this game will be a PvP game..... People now realize the PvE will always be minor.

    This is a blow to all the PvE only players.  The ones that were going to try and squeeze some sort of PvE atmosphere.

    The feeling of hope is now gone for them.


    I'll explain the same thing differently:
    Ashes of Creation will be half PvP and half PvE.  By displaying a BR, people now realize PvP will always dominate the game...... The PvE players that don't like PvP games now know this game is not for them.



    Adding a few towns to protect is looking like an afterthought.... Giving the PvP meaning.
    I mean wasn't PVP always the focus. I think on there kickstarter they talked about how PVP would be a major part of the game and the world resetting so people had to rebuild towns. The way I saw it always was 70% pvp and 30% PVE content. I think they even talked about having no safe areas as well.
    Currently playing: Outer Worlds (Xbox One X)

    Currently Reading: Skaven Slayer (Gotrek and Felix Book 2)

    Currently Writing: Champions of Legend Book 1 (3rd Draft)

    Currently Watching: Oz (Season 4), Soprano's (Season 1)


  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,528
    edited February 2019
    Arterius said:
    People are spreading their feelings.... Others are explaining it away. 

    I can sum it up with this: 
    By testing BR and only testing the PvP half of the game is making people realize this game will be a PvP game..... People now realize the PvE will always be minor.

    This is a blow to all the PvE only players.  The ones that were going to try and squeeze some sort of PvE atmosphere.

    The feeling of hope is now gone for them.


    I'll explain the same thing differently:
    Ashes of Creation will be half PvP and half PvE.  By displaying a BR, people now realize PvP will always dominate the game...... The PvE players that don't like PvP games now know this game is not for them.



    Adding a few towns to protect is looking like an afterthought.... Giving the PvP meaning.
    I mean wasn't PVP always the focus. I think on there kickstarter they talked about how PVP would be a major part of the game and the world resetting so people had to rebuild towns. The way I saw it always was 70% pvp and 30% PVE content. I think they even talked about having no safe areas as well.
    Yes, 
    But PvE players are desperate, many are so much so, their willing to compromise and squeeze some Player-Versus-Environment.  With an in your face display of BR, they realize their is no hope. 

    This is the root cause of frustration. 
    ArteriusKyleran
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    Word on the street is they're creating a P2W mobile version of the game just to test the cash shop and credit card transactions. No worries, it's just a test though. Totally won't be a "thing".  :D
    GaladournArteriusKyleran
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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,493
    Word on the street is they're creating a P2W mobile version of the game just to test the cash shop and credit card transactions. No worries, it's just a test though. Totally won't be a "thing".  :D
    Makes sense, especially since we all have cell phones, right?

    ;)

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • Tindale111Tindale111 Member UncommonPosts: 276
    I always thought it was you were supposed to be innocent until proven guilty .heaven forbid i ever end up in court with a jury from this site 
    GaladournKyleran
  • jahlonjahlon Member UncommonPosts: 383
    People are spreading their feelings.... Others are explaining it away. 

    I can sum it up with this: 
    By testing BR and only testing the PvP half of the game is making people realize this game will be a PvP game..... People now realize the PvE will always be minor.

    This is a blow to all the PvE only players.  The ones that were going to try and squeeze some sort of PvE atmosphere.

    The feeling of hope is now gone for them.


    I'll explain the same thing differently:
    Ashes of Creation will be half PvP and half PvE.  By displaying a BR, people now realize PvP will always dominate the game...... The PvE players that don't like PvP games now know this game is not for them.



    Adding a few towns to protect is looking like an afterthought.... Giving the PvP meaning.

    I think this does sum up the problem really well.

    They are testing the "combat" in a very PvP flavored manner.

    They are doing Battle Royale (PvP) then Castle Sieges (group PvP), and then Horde Mode (Group PvE).

    In hindsight, they should have done BR (for all the things that it accomplished, it really was a worthwhile test), then Horde Mode (to introduce that PvE flavor) and then Castle Sieges (to refine that bulk PvP mechanics)

    Or, should have just kept the testing inside the MMORPG.  


    Kyleran
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,493
    I always thought it was you were supposed to be innocent until proven guilty .heaven forbid i ever end up in court with a jury from this site 
    In a court of law, perhaps, but in the court of public opinion,  not so much.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,537
    Kyleran said:
    I always thought it was you were supposed to be innocent until proven guilty .heaven forbid i ever end up in court with a jury from this site 
    In a court of law, perhaps, but in the court of public opinion,  not so much.
    Yea, the overly trusting mentality that leads people to think "innocent until proven guilty" applies outside of courts is a big part of how these kickstarter crowdfunded MMOs suckered so many people in the first place.
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