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Is Balance All That?

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  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,057
    This allows 10 year old girls to compete with a samurai warrior in a sword fight - and win.
    Do you play Chess?
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Ungood said:
    This allows 10 year old girls to compete with a samurai warrior in a sword fight - and win.
    Do you play Chess?
    You'll have to define the words "play" and "Chess".

    You've managed to come up with your own unique definition for PvP - a definition not recognized by anyone else on the planet that I've seen - so I'm not sure what you're talking about when you use words anymore.

    Nothing wrong with using your own definitions for words, it just hampers communication a little bit.  I want to be sure I'm answering the question you're asking.  Thanks in advance.
    Slapshot1188ultimateduckUngood
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,057
    edited February 2019
    Ungood said:
    This allows 10 year old girls to compete with a samurai warrior in a sword fight - and win.
    Do you play Chess?
    You'll have to define the words "play" and "Chess".

    Well, I was going to ask if you whine like a baby about physical prowess if a 10 year old girl takes your rook with her pawn and checkmates your queen, in that game as well.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,057
    You've managed to come up with your own unique definition for PvP - a definition not recognized by anyone else on the planet that I've seen 
    Yes, these forums do seem to have that magical effect with terms don't they, It's totally amazing that here on MMORPG forums that anyone would have used the term "PvP" to actually mean Player vs Player, in the sense that.. it's Player vs Player, as opposed to.. well.. whatever you all seem to believe PvP is.. at this point.. fuck if I know what you are talking about.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,317


                                          Ignore the ............

    Image result for troll images

    Ungood
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 751
    Ungood said:
    You've managed to come up with your own unique definition for PvP - a definition not recognized by anyone else on the planet that I've seen 
    Yes, these forums do seem to have that magical effect with terms don't they, It's totally amazing that here on MMORPG forums that anyone would have used the term "PvP" to actually mean Player vs Player, in the sense that.. it's Player vs Player, as opposed to.. well.. whatever you all seem to believe PvP is.. at this point.. fuck if I know what you are talking about.
    Good.  You seem to have confused Ungood. This means you're on the right track in defining PvP/RvR.  They day he agrees with you, all is lost...
    Slapshot1188
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,057
    @ultimateduck what was the name of that modern super popular yet poorly balanced PvP game you play again?

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,820
    Chess is perfectly balanced between two people. Split the game up between 16 different players on each side and Ungood would complain that the Queen is OP because he can't 1v1 it with a pawn.
    ultimateduckSlapshot1188UngoodCryomatrixScorchienEponyxDamor
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 751
    Ungood said:
    @ultimateduck what was the name of that modern super popular yet poorly balanced PvP game you play again?

    It's called Eternal Crusade... oh, wait.  That game sucks and isn't an MMO.
    Slapshot1188Ungood
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,057
    Ungood said:
    @ultimateduck what was the name of that modern super popular yet poorly balanced PvP game you play again?

    It's called Eternal Crusade... oh, wait.  That game sucks and isn't an MMO.
    Yup.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,057
    @ultimateduck Just letting you know, Your total lock of being able to provide a single modern successful example of what you think is an Awesome PvP system.. is noted.

    Might want to accept the fact that this whole discussion went like this.

    OP: Why does Balance Matter.
    Ungood; Because Fair is Fun.
    You: Unfair is More Fun!
    Ungood: Do you have any proof of this?
    You: No, but I'm right and you're a stupid face.

    That's kinda where we are at now.
    EponyxDamorCryomatrix
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,336
    I dont' think you necessary need balance if you have lots of class/build in a sandbox game.

    But when your game really have 4 build and 1 of the class is far superior than the other(legend of aria), you kind of need to balance it out.
    Ungood
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,820
    Balance does not mean equal either. You don't need to have opposing forces being 100% identical for it to have some semblance of balance. Player skill is always a factor even in tab target games because some nimrod could choose the wrong skill.

    It's more important to understand what a game is about. If it's about conquest, realm vs realm, clan vs clan then individual classes don't need to be perfectly balanced because they play different roles in a team. These games tend to be better suited for an MMORPG crowd because of the variety. Look at Darkfall Online. That game had many skills that anyone could learn and use at any time. That's the "ultimate balance" because someone else cannot have access to something you don't aside from level. In the end it lost the interest of thousands because of the lack of diversity between people. Everyone ended up looking the same and using the same skills all the time. there wasn't really any room for crafters since even the pvpers could craft anything. Exploration did nothing. Conquest was just a reason to fight.

    I think it's far more important to have an engaging game. Period.
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,057
    Balance does not mean equal either. You don't need to have opposing forces being 100% identical for it to have some semblance of balance. Player skill is always a factor even in tab target games because some nimrod could choose the wrong skill.

    It's more important to understand what a game is about. If it's about conquest, realm vs realm, clan vs clan then individual classes don't need to be perfectly balanced because they play different roles in a team. These games tend to be better suited for an MMORPG crowd because of the variety. Look at Darkfall Online. That game had many skills that anyone could learn and use at any time. That's the "ultimate balance" because someone else cannot have access to something you don't aside from level. In the end it lost the interest of thousands because of the lack of diversity between people. Everyone ended up looking the same and using the same skills all the time. there wasn't really any room for crafters since even the pvpers could craft anything. Exploration did nothing. Conquest was just a reason to fight.

    I think it's far more important to have an engaging game. Period.
    This is a solid point, everyone ended up being the same. I wager there was some trade off, as in you could not train every skill, so you had chose. (Never played the game, just taking a guess on that one) and in doing this, a set number of skills came out as the best to have, no different than I wager BiS gear, and thus the majority of players went for those skills, because, as a surprise to no one, they gave the most advantage.

    The same exact problem arises in all other imbalanced games.

    There will be a Build (a Combo of Class/Skill/Gear/Extras) that will offer the greatest advantage, and once it gets figured out what will be the strongest Build to play (and this won't take long) like Darkfall, the majority of players will adopt these builds, and the game slowly becomes more and more homogenized due to less and less other Builds in play, and this of course will limit players options on what they can play viably.

    Just like in Darkfall, people could make other choices, nothing is stopping them from doing so, but it would put them at a disadvantage, same holds true if that choice is a class, gear, skills, or traits, or anything else.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 751
    Ungood said:
    @ultimateduck Just letting you know, Your total lock of being able to provide a single modern successful example of what you think is an Awesome PvP system.. is noted.

    Might want to accept the fact that this whole discussion went like this.

    OP: Why does Balance Matter.
    Ungood; Because Fair is Fun.
    You: Unfair is More Fun!
    Ungood: Do you have any proof of this?
    You: No, but I'm right and you're a stupid face.

    That's kinda where we are at now.


    Considering I've said several times that people like you have ruined the genre, why look to me for a good modern MMO.  There are none... because people like you have ruined the genre.

    OP: Why does balance matter?

    Everyone that isn't Ungood: There are several types of balance.  Individual balance, group balance, PvE and PvP balance, Realm balance. The type of game dictates the type of balance. FPS and MOBAs focus on individual balance.  MMOs focus on group or realm balance.

    Ungood: Everyone is wrong.  Balance is only what I say it is.  MMOs are only successful if I say they are. Money dictates what is and isn't good.  I have proof, which I don't actually have because it my opinion.

    Everyone that isn't Ungood: Ummm... no.

    Ungood: I will argue with everyone because only I am right and I have a goal to hit 100k posts withing the next 30 days to prove I'm right.  Also, I like to hear myself talk... because everyone is wrong but me.

    That's kinda where we are at now.



  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,057
    ultimateduck said:

    OP: Why does Balance Matter.
    Ungood; Because Fair is Fun.
    You: Unfair is More Fun!
    Ungood: Do you have any proof of this?
    You: No, but I'm right and you're a stupid face.

    That's kinda where we are at now.


    I agree with this. 
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • GanksinatraGanksinatra Member UncommonPosts: 451
    The sad reality is that if you want "balance" or "fair", then you are essentially going to have one class, one weapon, one spec.....just named different things to give the illusion of choice.
    AlBQuirky
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,820
    The sad reality is that if you want "balance" or "fair", then you are essentially going to have one class, one weapon, one spec.....just named different things to give the illusion of choice.
    That's part of the reason it's better to not be fully balanced, but to rather adjust things as you go along. That kind of balance makes things boring and repetitive for the type of player looking for an RPG. Shooter games are different. People don't play those for the same reasons.

    What I mean is it's probably not a coincidence that classes in most RPGs are never 100% perfectly balanced between each other and instead are regularly (or should be) updated, improved, and sometimes nerfed. Change is good. It keeps things interesting and having everything flawlessly balanced... IN AN RPG, is boring. There needs to be differences.
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,057
    The sad reality is that if you want "balance" or "fair", then you are essentially going to have one class, one weapon, one spec.....just named different things to give the illusion of choice.
    This is is a blatant lie that people regurgitate.. but is every character in LoL the same? Is every Character in Overwatch the Same? 

    Why do people cling to this falsehood when the truth is constantly and successfully staring them in the face?
    EponyxDamor
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • GanksinatraGanksinatra Member UncommonPosts: 451
    The sad reality is that if you want "balance" or "fair", then you are essentially going to have one class, one weapon, one spec.....just named different things to give the illusion of choice.
    That's part of the reason it's better to not be fully balanced, but to rather adjust things as you go along. That kind of balance makes things boring and repetitive for the type of player looking for an RPG. Shooter games are different. People don't play those for the same reasons.

    What I mean is it's probably not a coincidence that classes in most RPGs are never 100% perfectly balanced between each other and instead are regularly (or should be) updated, improved, and sometimes nerfed. Change is good. It keeps things interesting and having everything flawlessly balanced... IN AN RPG, is boring. There needs to be differences.
    I agree. When I played WoW, I had one of every class. I played what I liked to play, but it was neat each major patch to go and play the flavor of the month class and blowing up the meters. Sometimes the mechanics changed to the point where it was fun. Sometimes it was clearly just a gimmicky nonsense that took no skill. It was fun to find out. That wouldn't happen if every class was basically the same.

    I will say shooters need to get their ish together. Lately, it seems like they aren't even trying to keep the game balanced. ESPECIALLY that abortion Black Ops 4. Not only have they lopsided the guns to have like 3 of them clearly be head and shoulders above the rest, but they added in "operators", and some of them are WAY too OP. Like the dbag who can electrocute you in place for literally like 10 seconds. Or the guy with the dog that takes 800 bullets to put down. They can't even get the guns and matchmaking right, and they are adding another layer of nonsense that needs to be balanced. Makes no sense. Anyways, rant over lol.
  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 732
    Ungood said:
    The sad reality is that if you want "balance" or "fair", then you are essentially going to have one class, one weapon, one spec.....just named different things to give the illusion of choice.
    This is is a blatant lie that people regurgitate.. but is every character in LoL the same? Is every Character in Overwatch the Same? 

    Why do people cling to this falsehood when the truth is constantly and successfully staring them in the face?
    Why do you cling to this straw man? The OP specifically states he is referring to MMOs, not FPSs or MOBAs.

    "Again, this is about MMORPGs, not FPS or other games that are only PvP."

    Your entire argument in this thread has revolved around FPSs and MOBAs which aren't being discussed here. You continuously reply to people referring to MMOs or RPGs and bring up FPSs and MOBAs.

    Unless you have something to discuss related to the topic, perhaps its time to move on.
    AlBQuirky
  • GanksinatraGanksinatra Member UncommonPosts: 451
    Ungood said:
    The sad reality is that if you want "balance" or "fair", then you are essentially going to have one class, one weapon, one spec.....just named different things to give the illusion of choice.
    This is is a blatant lie that people regurgitate.. but is every character in LoL the same? Is every Character in Overwatch the Same? 

    Why do people cling to this falsehood when the truth is constantly and successfully staring them in the face?
    It's cute that you think all the characters in LoL and Overwatch are balanced. Never lose that child like naivety. 
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,057
    Ungood said:
    The sad reality is that if you want "balance" or "fair", then you are essentially going to have one class, one weapon, one spec.....just named different things to give the illusion of choice.
    This is is a blatant lie that people regurgitate.. but is every character in LoL the same? Is every Character in Overwatch the Same? 

    Why do people cling to this falsehood when the truth is constantly and successfully staring them in the face?
    It's cute that you think all the characters in LoL and Overwatch are balanced. Never lose that child like naivety. 
    On, They aren't, but I can play various (very different) kinds of heros, that do provide fun and challenge against totally different kinds of heros from themselves. So it's not a matter of same vs same, even if Overwatch is not perfectly balanced, it's not a game where everyone is playing Tracer or you Suck.. which sadly, is often what MMO's with PvP devolve to.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,057
    The sad reality is that if you want "balance" or "fair", then you are essentially going to have one class, one weapon, one spec.....just named different things to give the illusion of choice.
    That's part of the reason it's better to not be fully balanced, but to rather adjust things as you go along. That kind of balance makes things boring and repetitive for the type of player looking for an RPG. Shooter games are different. People don't play those for the same reasons.

    What I mean is it's probably not a coincidence that classes in most RPGs are never 100% perfectly balanced between each other and instead are regularly (or should be) updated, improved, and sometimes nerfed. Change is good. It keeps things interesting and having everything flawlessly balanced... IN AN RPG, is boring. There needs to be differences.
    I agree. When I played WoW, I had one of every class. I played what I liked to play, but it was neat each major patch to go and play the flavor of the month class and blowing up the meters. Sometimes the mechanics changed to the point where it was fun. Sometimes it was clearly just a gimmicky nonsense that took no skill. It was fun to find out. That wouldn't happen if every class was basically the same.

    I will say shooters need to get their ish together. Lately, it seems like they aren't even trying to keep the game balanced. ESPECIALLY that abortion Black Ops 4. Not only have they lopsided the guns to have like 3 of them clearly be head and shoulders above the rest, but they added in "operators", and some of them are WAY too OP. Like the dbag who can electrocute you in place for literally like 10 seconds. Or the guy with the dog that takes 800 bullets to put down. They can't even get the guns and matchmaking right, and they are adding another layer of nonsense that needs to be balanced. Makes no sense. Anyways, rant over lol.
    Yup.. gonna agree with you.. when the fight does not feel fair, it just sucks the fun right out of the game.

    Totally kills it.

    Now here is my problem, I have a bunch of people saying (Paraphrased) "Totally unbalanced OP Bullshit is great for PvP if they call the game an MMO"

    Maybe you can explain this one to me...  and how that works... because I am at a loss.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • GanksinatraGanksinatra Member UncommonPosts: 451
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    The sad reality is that if you want "balance" or "fair", then you are essentially going to have one class, one weapon, one spec.....just named different things to give the illusion of choice.
    This is is a blatant lie that people regurgitate.. but is every character in LoL the same? Is every Character in Overwatch the Same? 

    Why do people cling to this falsehood when the truth is constantly and successfully staring them in the face?
    It's cute that you think all the characters in LoL and Overwatch are balanced. Never lose that child like naivety. 
    On, They aren't, but I can play various (very different) kinds of heros, that do provide fun and challenge against totally different kinds of heros from themselves. So it's not a matter of same vs same, even if Overwatch is not perfectly balanced, it's not a game where everyone is playing Tracer or you Suck.. which sadly, is often what MMO's with PvP devolve to.
    I'm seriously starting to think you're just trolling. I literally said that the only way TO GET BALANCE is by having the same, vanilla classes just renamed. Your rebuttal, ignoring that the OP clearly was not talking about shooters and lane defense games, was that "Overwatch isn't balanced but I have fun".......great, I guess? You're purposefully omitting large portions of the conversation to have your own tangential conversation. And tangential is being generous. Completely unrelated due to the fact that you omit key portions would be more accurate. I said TO GET BALANCE, you would have to make them all the same, and your rebuttal was "Are all of the LoL characters the same? Overwatch?" and then proceed to say that they aren't balanced. It's like the two sides of your brain aren't talking to one another, and both think they have the answer to this conundrum.

    No one is saying you can't have fun with lopsided classes. You can even have fun using the garbage classes if you're good with them. But that has literally nothing to do with the conversation about whether or not balance is attainable or even that important. I will give you the tangential connection via the "is it important" part, but "I have fun" does not make a real convincing argument against the importance of balance.
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