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Is Balance All That?

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  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,136
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    @Scorchien

    You made a point that Imbalance is Fun.

    Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
        
      



    Ive been playing MMORPGs for over 21 years now , still playing UO and have played each of the games i listed to end game and participated in all the PvP/RvR anyone could ever want ..

      I cant tell you how many times ive been utterly rekt or our group or a friend etc.. in different games ..


          And  we laugh our asses off  ..

      Then we look at combat logs , and start to figure out what happen and what we can do to win that next encounter , and many times we/I do find a solution .. Many folks enjoy that , tweaking your build, finding ways to debuff/slience/counter an enemy/or group , changing your groups Tactics approach to certain situations..

      yes it s fun ..

      we have a saying with my group of friends ( that many ive been with since AC Darktide )

       Die with style ..


    This only applies IF there is a counter.. IF there is a way for you to have a fair fight.

    Having that implies the game is balanced, where you can have a fighting chance. 

    Now, I'll use an example. I was playing a Engineer in GW2, because I liked the idea of the Engineer kits and builds, it seemed kinda fun, I also liked the idea of using a rifle. But, try as I might, there was nothing I could do to stop a Thief from killing me in WvW. They would pop out of hiding and one shot me dead.

    So, I asked on the forums for build advice, I asked about tactics, anything that as an Engineer I could have at the very least, a fighting chance against a Thief in PvP, and I was told flat up that Engineners were not viable in PvP and I was SOL.

    So.. with that put out.

    I am going to ask again.

    Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,342
    edited February 2019
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    @Scorchien

    You made a point that Imbalance is Fun.

    Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
        
      



    Ive been playing MMORPGs for over 21 years now , still playing UO and have played each of the games i listed to end game and participated in all the PvP/RvR anyone could ever want ..

      I cant tell you how many times ive been utterly rekt or our group or a friend etc.. in different games ..


          And  we laugh our asses off  ..

      Then we look at combat logs , and start to figure out what happen and what we can do to win that next encounter , and many times we/I do find a solution .. Many folks enjoy that , tweaking your build, finding ways to debuff/slience/counter an enemy/or group , changing your groups Tactics approach to certain situations..

      yes it s fun ..

      we have a saying with my group of friends ( that many ive been with since AC Darktide )

       Die with style ..


    This only applies IF there is a counter.. IF there is a way for you to have a fair fight.

    Having that implies the game is balanced, where you can have a fighting chance. 

    Now, I'll use an example. I was playing a Engineer in GW2, because I liked the idea of the Engineer kits and builds, it seemed kinda fun, I also liked the idea of using a rifle. But, try as I might, there was nothing I could do to stop a Thief from killing me in WvW. They would pop out of hiding and one shot me dead.

    So, I asked on the forums for build advice, I asked about tactics, anything that as an Engineer I could have at the very least, a fighting chance against a Thief in PvP, and I was told flat up that Engineners were not viable in PvP and I was SOL.

    So.. with that put out.

    I am going to ask again.

    Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
    I could post dozens and dozens of examples that have and do work in many games .. But would be a waste of time with you ..

       Enjoy yourself ..

      Engi vs Thief ..    Dead Thief ...   





      So with that Put out.



      Now maybe you just are just Nogood at PvP  and arent nearly the PvPer you want to profess to be ,  Maybe time to take on a new hobby ...

       You are wrong again , but the community here has become very accustomed to it ..

      


    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,136
    Well not sure where you get your sources, but, they are wrong. DAoC lasted 2 years with a plateaued population and than went right into decline. I may have been at the top of the heap of games like it. since it was unique, but it was not even a contender against other MMO's coming out during it's era.


    DAoC is still going, even with a $15mo sub, dispite being 17 years old and not having an expansion released for over a decade.  What keeps people playing it?... it's RvR system.  We may have a difference of opinion here, but I would call that a success.

    A yes, it was the "top of the heap just like it" as we are talking about MMOs. You can't compare MMOs to console games or free FPS PC games.

    No, at it's peak it at best had the same population as UO did at it's 5 year mark, and never saw even half the numbers EQ did.. even dead games like Starwars Galaxies had better numbers than DAoC, so it was not at the top of any MMO heap... ever. 

    Just thought you should know that..
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,136
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    @Scorchien

    You made a point that Imbalance is Fun.

    Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
        
      



    Ive been playing MMORPGs for over 21 years now , still playing UO and have played each of the games i listed to end game and participated in all the PvP/RvR anyone could ever want ..

      I cant tell you how many times ive been utterly rekt or our group or a friend etc.. in different games ..


          And  we laugh our asses off  ..

      Then we look at combat logs , and start to figure out what happen and what we can do to win that next encounter , and many times we/I do find a solution .. Many folks enjoy that , tweaking your build, finding ways to debuff/slience/counter an enemy/or group , changing your groups Tactics approach to certain situations..

      yes it s fun ..

      we have a saying with my group of friends ( that many ive been with since AC Darktide )

       Die with style ..


    This only applies IF there is a counter.. IF there is a way for you to have a fair fight.

    Having that implies the game is balanced, where you can have a fighting chance. 

    Now, I'll use an example. I was playing a Engineer in GW2, because I liked the idea of the Engineer kits and builds, it seemed kinda fun, I also liked the idea of using a rifle. But, try as I might, there was nothing I could do to stop a Thief from killing me in WvW. They would pop out of hiding and one shot me dead.

    So, I asked on the forums for build advice, I asked about tactics, anything that as an Engineer I could have at the very least, a fighting chance against a Thief in PvP, and I was told flat up that Engineners were not viable in PvP and I was SOL.

    So.. with that put out.

    I am going to ask again.

    Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
    I could post dozens and dozens of examples that have and do work in many games .. But would be a waste of time with you ..

       Enjoy yourself ..

      

    given I just showed you how poor balance can affect a game, a full understanding how it plays out, when classes are not in fact balanced, allowing for Puppet vs Puppet combat, where the victory is based on the Puppet not the Player.

    Yes, I have played many of these games.. so I do not understand your attraction to them.

    But humor me, show me one good example where imbalance, a situation where the class itself determines the outcome of the fight, works for the better of the game,

    Again.. I am trying to see your attraction to poorly balanced games.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,342
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    @Scorchien

    You made a point that Imbalance is Fun.

    Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
        
      



    Ive been playing MMORPGs for over 21 years now , still playing UO and have played each of the games i listed to end game and participated in all the PvP/RvR anyone could ever want ..

      I cant tell you how many times ive been utterly rekt or our group or a friend etc.. in different games ..


          And  we laugh our asses off  ..

      Then we look at combat logs , and start to figure out what happen and what we can do to win that next encounter , and many times we/I do find a solution .. Many folks enjoy that , tweaking your build, finding ways to debuff/slience/counter an enemy/or group , changing your groups Tactics approach to certain situations..

      yes it s fun ..

      we have a saying with my group of friends ( that many ive been with since AC Darktide )

       Die with style ..


    This only applies IF there is a counter.. IF there is a way for you to have a fair fight.

    Having that implies the game is balanced, where you can have a fighting chance. 

    Now, I'll use an example. I was playing a Engineer in GW2, because I liked the idea of the Engineer kits and builds, it seemed kinda fun, I also liked the idea of using a rifle. But, try as I might, there was nothing I could do to stop a Thief from killing me in WvW. They would pop out of hiding and one shot me dead.

    So, I asked on the forums for build advice, I asked about tactics, anything that as an Engineer I could have at the very least, a fighting chance against a Thief in PvP, and I was told flat up that Engineners were not viable in PvP and I was SOL.

    So.. with that put out.

    I am going to ask again.

    Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
    I could post dozens and dozens of examples that have and do work in many games .. But would be a waste of time with you ..

       Enjoy yourself ..

      

    given I just showed you how poor balance can affect a game, a full understanding how it plays out, when classes are not in fact balanced, allowing for Puppet vs Puppet combat, where the victory is based on the Puppet not the Player.

    Yes, I have played many of these games.. so I do not understand your attraction to them.

    But humor me, show me one good example where imbalance, a situation where the class itself determines the outcome of the fight, works for the better of the game,

    Again.. I am trying to see your attraction to poorly balanced games.

      Youve shown nothing once again except your lack of effort and understanding of your own example ..

      You honestly have proven your self with your own example to be Nogood at PvP , and you certainly are not worth the time or effort of any further explanations from this community on this subject , you have a very limited view and understanding and experience .. This thread has proven that ...


       Im done here ..

       Have a Nice Day
    ultimateduck
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,136
    Scorchien said:
    Now maybe you just arent goood enough and arent nearly the PvPer you want to profess to be ,  Maybe time to take on a new hobby ...   

    OMG that thief was sooooo bad. Like, really.. really.. LOL level Bad.

    Wow, LOL, If that is what you think passes for winning at PvP, fumbling around hoping  beyond hope for someone to suck really bad for you to get some token win in... well..

    Keep Dying I guess.

    This however does not answer my question.. or maybe.. it does.
    ultimateduck
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,136
    Scorchien said:
      Youve shown nothing once again except your lack of effort and understanding of your own example .. 
    No, that is what you did, without even remotely understanding what you were looking at in that Video.

    Scorchien said:

    You honestly have proven your self with your own example to be Nogood at PvP , and you certainly are not worth the time or effort of any further explanations from this community on this subject , you have a very limited view and understanding and experience .. This thread has proven that ...
    LOL,. I have been playing MMO longer than you have.

    Cute pun at the name, I can do that as well, I think "Suckchien at games" fits you well as chances are you are the Thief in that Video needing to depend on gross imbalance to give you a chance.

    Well.. Kudos for taking one for the team.
    EponyxDamor
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,019
    I think of balance in terms of "Is this fun?".

    Then you have bought in to the concept that gaming is nothing more than "fun".
    AlBQuirky

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,108
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    @Scorchien

    You made a point that Imbalance is Fun.

    Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
        
      



    Ive been playing MMORPGs for over 21 years now , still playing UO and have played each of the games i listed to end game and participated in all the PvP/RvR anyone could ever want ..

      I cant tell you how many times ive been utterly rekt or our group or a friend etc.. in different games ..


          And  we laugh our asses off  ..

      Then we look at combat logs , and start to figure out what happen and what we can do to win that next encounter , and many times we/I do find a solution .. Many folks enjoy that , tweaking your build, finding ways to debuff/slience/counter an enemy/or group , changing your groups Tactics approach to certain situations..

      yes it s fun ..

      we have a saying with my group of friends ( that many ive been with since AC Darktide )

       Die with style ..


    This only applies IF there is a counter.. IF there is a way for you to have a fair fight.

    Having that implies the game is balanced, where you can have a fighting chance. 

    Now, I'll use an example. I was playing a Engineer in GW2, because I liked the idea of the Engineer kits and builds, it seemed kinda fun, I also liked the idea of using a rifle. But, try as I might, there was nothing I could do to stop a Thief from killing me in WvW. They would pop out of hiding and one shot me dead.

    So, I asked on the forums for build advice, I asked about tactics, anything that as an Engineer I could have at the very least, a fighting chance against a Thief in PvP, and I was told flat up that Engineners were not viable in PvP and I was SOL.

    So.. with that put out.

    I am going to ask again.

    Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
    I could post dozens and dozens of examples that have and do work in many games .. But would be a waste of time with you ..

       Enjoy yourself ..

      

    given I just showed you how poor balance can affect a game, a full understanding how it plays out, when classes are not in fact balanced, allowing for Puppet vs Puppet combat, where the victory is based on the Puppet not the Player.

    Yes, I have played many of these games.. so I do not understand your attraction to them.

    But humor me, show me one good example where imbalance, a situation where the class itself determines the outcome of the fight, works for the better of the game,

    Again.. I am trying to see your attraction to poorly balanced games.

      Youve shown nothing once again except your lack of effort and understanding of your own example ..

      You honestly have proven your self with your own example to be Nogood at PvP , and you certainly are not worth the time or effort of any further explanations from this community on this subject , you have a very limited view and understanding and experience .. This thread has proven that ...


       Im done here ..

       Have a Nice Day
    I occasionally wonder if it’s just an act.  

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    This thread really took off since the last time I checked it. :+1:
    WargfootYVultimateduck

    image
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,136
    I occasionally wonder if it’s just an act.  
    Well.. I noticed you haven't stepped up to answer the question either.. so predictable.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,136
    This thread really took off since the last time I checked it. :+1:
    As I see it, it's just a few people crying that Imbalance is great for a game, and as expected, being totally unable to back up their claim with why imbalance it is good for a game.

    As it stands, in PvP games, Fair is Fun. 

    If a game does not feel Fair, players will either leave, or cheat. Neither is good for the longevity or heath of the game.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 753
    edited February 2019
    Sounds to me like someone doesn't like games they aren't good at, which are PvP games.  The game he's pushing is garbage that no one plays so he gets to be a big fish in a small pond.

    FYI, making fun a game because of it's low population while pushing a game with a lower population shows how ridiculous you are.  DAoC seems to have as many or more subscription players after 15+ years that Eternal Crusade has and it's been out for what, three years... and Eternal Crusade is free.  And you are going to try and say DAoC was a failure?

    You have issues.
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Ungood said:

    As I see it, it's just a few people crying that Imbalance is great for a game...

    What I'm seeing is that people would like to see balance be something other than just straight up PvP defined by each class having exactly the same chance to win at a fight wherein the players reflexes are the determining factor.

    Also, a weaker class *might* prove interesting for someone to play - giving a player the ability to play a more challenging class.  Some people DO enjoy that type of mild imbalance as it add variety to the game.

    If you like mirrored classes in PvP that is fine and it is a good way to achieve balance.
    Some of us find that boring and we're looking for something a bit more involved - like balance being cast in terms of intelligence, strategy, forethought, creativity and so forth.

    You also haven't addressed what your view of balance means in a game with significant progression.

    At this point I assume you have me on ignore.
  • SharneSharne Member UncommonPosts: 187
    I'm reading over on the official Legends of Aria forums where someone suggested that the mages are overpowered and that perhaps the developer should implement the strategy of Rock/Paper/Scissors for balancing the game.  Since my gut reaction is to oppose what everyone else is writing and to be a troll, I decided to post a contrary point of view.

    So here, for the sake of a discussion and just for a thought exercise, what if we decided that balance just wasn't that important?

    I'm not talking about a FPS here - I mean a full fledged MMORPG.   
    I'm wondering if the attempt to get 'balance' ends up ruining games more than helping and if really doesn't do anything for the player base.

    People want balance because they want a fair fight in PvP encounters and they also want to make money in PvE at roughly the same rate as everyone else.  When balance isn't in place people end up getting owned (Problem 1) and they end up chasing FOTM builds (Problem 2) which is exasperating for everyone involved.

    I submit for your consideration that the solution of Rock/Paper/Scissors doesn't answer any of the problems it pretends to solve.
    1: Rock will always get owned by Paper (ownage still happens)
    2: Everyone ends up having at least 3 builds, pulling them out as populations change.  

    ^--- In short, even the Gold Standard Strategy of balance ends up accomplishing very little.

    In addition to introducing no real solution I wonder if attempts at balance create more problems than it is worth.

    1: The expectation of balance (which will never occur) sours the player base.
    2: The gameplay is turned to oatmeal - since every class can kills boss X easily there is no challenge along the lines of "sure, you did it with your mage but can you do it with your warrior?"  The answer "sure I can, the developers have ensured balance." is BORING.
    3: The constant tweaking to get balance is constantly changing the value of skills - I worked hard to get skill X leveled, oh, now it is nearly worthless.  <-- LOTRO did ALOT of this for PvP.

    It seems to me that chasing the balance unicorn can be more harmful than good.
    Maybe just let class X be OP and allow those interested in a challenge/variety pursue the other classes?


    If we are talking about duel type pvp then balance makes sense, however I've never liked that kind of pvp (aside from 1vs1 in eve which is a rarity now days)

    If we are talking about team based pvp then it makes no sense what so ever (we might as well all just be warriors with swords and the same skills if that's the case) , the reason we have classes and different roles in mmo's should carry through to pvp.

    WargfootYV
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Sharne said:


    If we are talking about duel type pvp then balance makes sense, however I've never liked that kind of pvp (aside from 1vs1 in eve which is a rarity now days)

    If we are talking about team based pvp then it makes no sense what so ever (we might as well all just be warriors with swords and the same skills if that's the case) , the reason we have classes and different roles in mmo's should carry through to pvp.

    You're not wrong.

    That said, I think group balance falls down as quickly as individual balance, unless you make mirrored classes (which works) but is boring to my way of thinking.  The term FOTM comes from game developers constantly tweaking stuff to get balance in game where actual variety is attempted.

    Even in game with mirrored classes (rock/paper/scissors) you get group compositions that crush every other group composition.  Back in Shadowbane we had a run of Centaurs - packs of them running as Paladins.  They could melt anyone so very quickly.  They found that they didn't need the other classes allotted their race.  It was brutal.

    As bad as LOTRO PvP was it was interesting to run around as a Warg.  During most builds a Warg could be melted by just about anyone in a straight up battle - but we did have stealth - so we'd wait around near the edges of the battle for any wounded strays and polish them off.  It was a humiliating way for them to go but that was fun.

    As long as a weaker class has options - that is, a way to play that brings in some wins, it can be interesting.

    I'd like to see a DAoC type world with a 4th realm composed of weak classes forced to sort of sulk around the edges of real battles - the kind that are forced to pick through the remains of a battle for anything usable.   Maybe these class would be fodder in straight up PvP but given some unique skills like stealth, or the ability to loot a fresh corpse.

    In movies/TV/etc it is the scrappy races/people that innovate - I'd like to see a game approach balance that way instead of always making it about trading blows with a sword.
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    What is interesting in LOTRO, in regard to balance, was that even though an opposition class could melt a warg the fact the warg could escape drove people nuts.  This is a case where in a PvP fight the overpowered class was the one complaining about 'balance'.


    (I've not played in years, so I don't know the current state of the game)
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,108
    It’s almost like a bizarre Monty Pythons Quest for the Holy Grail scene.  One group comes to siege the castle and instead of starting battle they instead start counting numbers to see how many are on each side.  Then they have to ask 12 guys to sit it out to insure “balance”. Then they start arguing which escalated into a fight where 20 are killed.  So they now go and demand they people in the castle have 8 people sit out. To which they all get on the ramparts and moon.

    This entire argument that any and all games that have PvP all need to be balanced at the character level is a joke so I suggest we move past it and stop allowing one stubborn guy to play Groundhog Day. 
    EponyxDamorSharne

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,108
    One pretty simple concept I’ve always had in mind was a mechanic for RvR games where each Realm gets a buff of some kind.  That buff is divided by the number of players on each side.  It would have to use average population over a certain time to avoid exploitation.  This would actually incentivize people to play on lower pop realms.  Maybe 20 guys from a small realm could hold off 30 from an over populated realm. The goal would not be balance, but fun.  

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,136
    Ungood said:

    As I see it, it's just a few people crying that Imbalance is great for a game...

    What I'm seeing is that people would like to see balance be something other than just straight up PvP defined by each class having exactly the same chance to win at a fight wherein the players reflexes are the determining factor.


    But that is not what they are saying.

    They are saying that they don't want a balanced game.

    And like you, are clinging to some delusional ideology that balance means that everything is the same, like a game of Fortnight, where every toon is identical.

    I have explained several times over, that is not what balance is, and I have even used examples in real games that I play, to show this is purely not the case.

    Yet, your side, those that think Imbalance is some great thing, stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to listen to this reality, and rather cling to their foolish notions.

    Case in point. 


    If you like mirrored classes in PvP that is fine and it is a good way to achieve balance.
    Some of us find that boring and we're looking for something a bit more involved - like balance being cast in terms of intelligence, strategy, forethought, creativity and so forth.

    But this would still be a balanced game. That is not what you are talking about, you are talking about a game where it's puppet vs puppet and the best puppet wins, not the player.

    Even in your own example with UO, since you will never defeat that other player, all you have done is simply TRY to made the best out of losing. But the reality is, you went though that routine because you knew you had zero chance to actually win in the encounter, in short you were defeated before you even fought. You were so defeated, you were so totally and ultimately defeated that you have completely surrendered to the point of just making the best of losing. 

    .. Ok.. Humor me.. How did you find that fun?

    Anyway.. moving on.
    At this point I assume you have me on ignore.
    I don't ignore people. So if I didn't respond to your post, it was because I didn't care to.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,136
    Sounds to me like someone doesn't like games they aren't good at, which are PvP games.  The game he's pushing is garbage that no one plays so he gets to be a big fish in a small pond.
    No. I am good at PvP, which is why I want a Fair Fight. Nothing makes a good PVP more annoyed than having some class that is a crutch for skill.

    Equally so, nothing denotes a bad PvP player than needing a crutch like class imbalance.

    FYI, making fun a game because of it's low population while pushing a game with a lower population shows how ridiculous you are.  DAoC seems to have as many or more subscription players after 15+ years that Eternal Crusade has and it's been out for what, three years... and Eternal Crusade is free.  And you are going to try and say DAoC was a failure? 

    You have issues.
    Lets use this Logic.

    Fortnight -  80 Million Players.
    Overwatch - 40 Million Player.
    League of Legends - 10 years Later - 81 to 100 Million Players.

    DAoC - barely saw a quarter a million, and by 5 years after launch, it was at 90% Loss from peak, with a population of less than 25K players.

    Tell me again what an Epic Game DAoC was.

    So yah.. when you tell me how numbers matter.. and take a real good look at these.. 
    EponyxDamor
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,136
    It’s almost like a bizarre Monty Pythons Quest for the Holy Grail scene.  One group comes to siege the castle and instead of starting battle they instead start counting numbers to see how many are on each side.  Then they have to ask 12 guys to sit it out to insure “balance”. Then they start arguing which escalated into a fight where 20 are killed.  So they now go and demand they people in the castle have 8 people sit out. To which they all get on the ramparts and moon.

    This entire argument that any and all games that have PvP all need to be balanced at the character level is a joke so I suggest we move past it and stop allowing one stubborn guy to play Groundhog Day. 
    Yup.. as predictable as the rising sun.. makes a jab and yet STILL can't answer my one single question.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,108
    Ungood said:
    It’s almost like a bizarre Monty Pythons Quest for the Holy Grail scene.  One group comes to siege the castle and instead of starting battle they instead start counting numbers to see how many are on each side.  Then they have to ask 12 guys to sit it out to insure “balance”. Then they start arguing which escalated into a fight where 20 are killed.  So they now go and demand they people in the castle have 8 people sit out. To which they all get on the ramparts and moon.

    This entire argument that any and all games that have PvP all need to be balanced at the character level is a joke so I suggest we move past it and stop allowing one stubborn guy to play Groundhog Day. 
    Yup.. as predictable as the rising sun.. makes a jab and yet STILL can't answer my one single question.

    Not going to play Ground Hog day with you. Just assume that my future posts in this thread are not addressed to you as they arent.  Enjoy Fortnite and Overwatch.  They are great games that millions like.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Ungood said:You were so defeated, you were so totally and ultimately defeated that you have completely surrendered to the point of just making the best of losing. 

    .. Ok.. Humor me.. How did you find that fun?

    Yes.
    I found it fun because I was outsmarting the other guy.

    The point of PKing was to rob a person of material goods.  It was a 'profession' in UO - a day time job to get cash.  I was denying the PK cash and I was making it back to town with full loot bags.   I didn't have to build the perfect PvP template to buy a house or make ends meet.  The game was flexible enough for me to do it my way and to define a win in my own terms.

    I could go into PK hotspots and leave with my loot.
    I left with my loot without killing any other players.

    THAT is the kind of balance I want in a game - sure, there has to be some balance built in - but I want a challenge and then the tools that allow me to tip the scales in my direction.

    Another Example: 

    In LOTRO I used to study the layout of the keeps and ruined castles in the PvP zone.  I had two players attack me - I had ZERO chance of beating them - but I did know the keep, specifically, I knew a ledge that had to be walked on in a certain way to avoid falling into the valley below.

    So I gingerly walked onto the ledge making it appear as if I'd done a small 'hop' to get onto it.  They chased me onto the ledge, mimicked the hop, and immediately fell into the valley below.  I watched from above as they disappeared below - and I laughed.

    I didn't kill them, but I won that encounter in a way that made me laugh and I can guarantee you they were upset.

    Some of us like to win by deception, by knowing the terrain, or by pure guile.
    For that to happen a game should provide breadth of environment so people can get creative.

    If you define a win solely as killing the other guy and then build balance only on that then you've built, IMHO, a boring game.

    SharneAlBQuirky
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    One pretty simple concept I’ve always had in mind was a mechanic for RvR games where each Realm gets a buff of some kind.  That buff is divided by the number of players on each side.  It would have to use average population over a certain time to avoid exploitation.  This would actually incentivize people to play on lower pop realms.  Maybe 20 guys from a small realm could hold off 30 from an over populated realm. The goal would not be balance, but fun.  
    Some people like being from a smaller realm and they enjoy the challenge of an unbalanced fight. No insult to you, but I just really feel this is where the wheels come off when developing a game.

    I'd like to see a developer create a racial variety called the 'scrapper'.
    I bet you'd get clans built around the race - people who enjoy the hard knocks thing.

    It would be interesting to explore the realm of imbalance - or at the very least, balanced that doesn't necessarily mean even 1:1 or group:group.
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