I'll say this again. DAOC was a Bad PvP Game, and it crashed and burned far faster than other Golden Age MMO's because it didn't abide by the idea the player mattered .. Not sure how many times I will have to say that before it gets though your thick skull.. this is the 5th..
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Meh.. No need for name calling. That was poor form on my part.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Well.. in case anyone wants to know the end result of the importance of Balance in PvP, even the legendary Slapshot, could not come up with a PvP game with poor balance that was less than 10 years that didn't tank like a MF.
So, when people are wondering "is Balance important?" well.. the answer is: If it's a PvP game, Yes, otherwise, No.
Now, do PvP games need to be balanced? Only if they want to survive with a semi-decent population.
That is the end result of this discussion. No matter what anyone wants to hem and haw about.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Well.. in case anyone wants to know the end result of the importance of Balance in PvP, even the legendary Slapshot, could not come up with a PvP game with poor balance that was less than 10 years that didn't tank like a MF.
So, when people are wondering "is Balance important?" well.. the answer is: If it's a PvP game, Yes, otherwise, No.
Now, do PvP games need to be balanced? Only if they want to survive with a semi-decent population.
That is the end result of this discussion. No matter what anyone wants to hem and haw about.
This is what happens when people jump to false conclusions to fit their narrative.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The problem with balance is that it is mostly focused on 1 vs 1. The more "balancing" put in on a 1 vs 1 level, the more bland the game becomes. It is a quite strange fenomenon that I have no explanation for, other than it seem to hold true. For a pve game this 1 vs 1 balancing is the result of single player focused game design, and trying to micro manage the game experience of players. Essentially in pve, balance is the fix for removing roles, and this fix has some sideffects. For a pvp game 1 vs 1 balancing spring from the ideology that you can make pvp fair. I can only speak as a outsider or casual pvp player, but it does not seem like fairness is what any pvp player wants. Isn't it more about using your advantages whenever you can, situational and otherwise, trick your opponent and get rewarded when you succeed in it - It certainly is for me when I do pvp. But if this is the case, then overbalancing removes many of these opportunities that makes the pvp play fun..and I use the word overbalance because balance is good but it has a very impactful tipping point. But really it comes back to 1 vs 1 balancing and designing for single player pvp and fear of causing distress to any player (funny in itself for a pvp game but shrug..), instead of co-op pvp which only needs relative balancing. My favorite pvp (yeah rip my head off now haha) is still stuff like WoW battlegrounds where classes-roles-builds were not at all balanced, but when co-operating there were not any real weak builds because it was in everyones interest to protect their team mates..it was balanced as a whole and not so much on 1 vs 1 base. Also a game like Overwatch follows this principle, and I am not a Actiblizz fan in any way, but in these cases they hit pvp exactly as I like it.
The problem with balance is that it is mostly focused on 1 vs 1. The more "balancing" put in on a 1 vs 1 level, the more bland the game becomes. It is a quite strange fenomenon that I have no explanation for, other than it seem to hold true. For a pve game this 1 vs 1 balancing is the result of single player focused game design, and trying to micro manage the game experience of players. Essentially in pve, balance is the fix for removing roles, and this fix has some sideffects. For a pvp game 1 vs 1 balancing spring from the ideology that you can make pvp fair. I can only speak as a outsider or casual pvp player, but it does not seem like fairness is what any pvp player wants. Isn't it more about using your advantages whenever you can, situational and otherwise, trick your opponent and get rewarded when you succeed in it - It certainly is for me when I do pvp. But if this is the case, then overbalancing removes many of these opportunities that makes the pvp play fun..and I use the word overbalance because balance is good but it has a very impactful tipping point. But really it comes back to 1 vs 1 balancing and designing for single player pvp and fear of causing distress to any player (funny in itself for a pvp game but shrug..), instead of co-op pvp which only needs relative balancing. My favorite pvp (yeah rip my head off now haha) is still stuff like WoW battlegrounds where classes-roles-builds were not at all balanced, but when co-operating there were not any real weak builds because it was in everyones interest to protect their team mates..it was balanced as a whole and not so much on 1 vs 1 base. Also a game like Overwatch follows this principle, and I am not a Actiblizz fan in any way, but in these cases they hit pvp exactly as I like it.
As you point out balance and just about every other aspect of gameplay do not sit well together. Be is depth of class powers and skills or just how different the classes are anything that adds complexity to class design raises balance issues.
This is one reason behind the homogenous easy mode classes we see today, it is just easier to do. But if you can get it right proper class structure and play is unbeatable gameplay.
Well.. in case anyone wants to know the end result of the importance of Balance in PvP, even the legendary Slapshot, could not come up with a PvP game with poor balance that was less than 10 years that didn't tank like a MF.
If the market determines what is right and wrong then we're stuck with PTW cash shops, micro-transactions, and loot boxes. Hey man, the customer is always right!
I've not played any new MMORPG in years because the cookie cutter approach to class balance and utter lack of depth or ability to innovate has left me bored. I know the entire game before I get past the character creation screens.
So while busloads of nitwits continue to waste their time trying to decide between a fire mage and a necromancer (1) I'm going to continue to wait for a game that understands balance in different terms, maybe exploring excellent play as something other than the seizures of a hyper caffeinated twitch monkeys.
A market full of vanilla offerings where the developers have sacrificed all to the demon god balance is a market waiting for something innovative and disruptive. Probably be a niche game and I'm okay with that.
NOTES ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1: It is a tough choice because the fire mage has a fireball spell that does 50pts. of damage and the necromancer has a hellfire spell that does 50pts of damage - so many options, how do you decide?
Well.. in case anyone wants to know the end result of the importance of Balance in PvP, even the legendary Slapshot, could not come up with a PvP game with poor balance that was less than 10 years that didn't tank like a MF.
If the market determines what is right and wrong then we're stuck with PTW cash shops, micro-transactions, and loot boxes. Hey man, the customer is always right!
I've not played any new MMORPG in years because the cookie cutter approach to class balance and utter lack of depth or ability to innovate has left me bored. I know the entire game before I get past the character creation screens.
So while busloads of nitwits continue to waste their time trying to decide between a fire mage and a necromancer (1) I'm going to continue to wait for a game that understands balance in different terms, maybe exploring excellent play as something other than the seizures of a hyper caffeinated twitch monkeys.
A market full of vanilla offerings where the developers have sacrificed all to the demon god balance is a market waiting for something innovative and disruptive. Probably be a niche game and I'm okay with that.
NOTES ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1: It is a tough choice because the fire mage has a fireball spell that does 50pts. of damage and the necromancer has a hellfire spell that does 50pts of damage - so many options, how do you decide?
The irony is that he has pushed a game (Eternal Crusades) that was a commercial and critical failure as the model game to be copied. Like most of his diatribes, if you actually try to follow them you will hurt your head.
Trying to balance PvP at the character level in an MMORPG is a fools errand.
PS: Here is the MMORPG.COM review score for Eternal Cursades 4.8 The core shooter mechanic doesn’t feel good. The world map is for show. Game has balance issues.
So ironic...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Well.. in case anyone wants to know the end result of the importance of Balance in PvP, even the legendary Slapshot, could not come up with a PvP game with poor balance that was less than 10 years that didn't tank like a MF.
If the market determines what is right and wrong then we're stuck with PTW cash shops, micro-transactions, and loot boxes. Hey man, the customer is always right!
I've not played any new MMORPG in years because the cookie cutter approach to class balance and utter lack of depth or ability to innovate has left me bored. I know the entire game before I get past the character creation screens.
So while busloads of nitwits continue to waste their time trying to decide between a fire mage and a necromancer (1) I'm going to continue to wait for a game that understands balance in different terms, maybe exploring excellent play as something other than the seizures of a hyper caffeinated twitch monkeys.
A market full of vanilla offerings where the developers have sacrificed all to the demon god balance is a market waiting for something innovative and disruptive. Probably be a niche game and I'm okay with that.
NOTES ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1: It is a tough choice because the fire mage has a fireball spell that does 50pts. of damage and the necromancer has a hellfire spell that does 50pts of damage - so many options, how do you decide?
The irony is that he has pushed a game (Eternal Crusades) that was a commercial and critical failure as the model game to be copied. Like most of his diatribes, if you actually try to follow them you will hurt your head.
Trying to balance PvP at the character level in an MMORPG is a fools errand.
And ill add as has been pointed out ..
All of the most endeared an well thought of RvR/PvP MMORPGs are/were not balanced ..
All wildly unbalanced .. but fun as fuck .. thats what we are here for .............. correct?
The lack of balance is what made the PVP RvR in these games fun , and also encouraged teamwork and planning , in handling of the imbalance ..
And again seems people keep wanting to reference other genres to balance MMORPG PVP/RVR which is as again has been pointed out not feasible ..( you cannot bring other genres (FPS, BR and Arena games) into the eqaution .. its apples and oranges ..
And of course trying to set up so many intangibles and ask for a PVP MMORPG in the past 10 years is a fools question also , the entire Genre has stagnated over those 10 years and new gamers have come into the industry wanting and expecting Fortnite like experiences .. Its not what the OP was discussing .. hes talking about MMORPGs .. not any other genre .. If someone wants to discuss the balance and advantages of PVP in FPS , BR and Arena games they should start a thread for that ..
And im going to add , one of the most unique and enjoyable things in an MMORPG for many players is the ability to come up with unique and powerful builds , or unusual and or unexpected with different variances of Utility /DPS/Survivability etc that give varying combat exeperiences for Attacker and Defender .. the possibilities are endless. in a good character/class system .. ( its not something you can do in FPS/BR /Arena games) Experimenting and finding builds is a feature not present in FPS/BR/Arena games
Games like Fortnite the only difference from player to player is which Clown Shoes you are wearing .. and or FPS/Arena games is Skins ..
By wanting to remove all the variables in class builds that many MMORPGs provide you reduce them to being an FPS /BR /Arena game .. If thats what you want there are plenty of options for that , and there is nothing wrong with that ..
Well.. in case anyone wants to know the end result of the importance of Balance in PvP, even the legendary Slapshot, could not come up with a PvP game with poor balance that was less than 10 years that didn't tank like a MF.
If the market determines what is right and wrong then we're stuck with PTW cash shops, micro-transactions, and loot boxes. Hey man, the customer is always right!
The market determines what is successful.
Now, this in no way stops a company from making a game for a very small niche group of players, assuming they walk into the whole project knowing that will be the end result, a very small niche group of players. Much like a game marketing itself as a Hard core raid game, needs to know that they will only get a small subset of players into that game.
Even games that have failed miserably have contributed to the MMO world, because they had some great designs in an overall bad package.
Now, in this vein, it's hard to say "The players want this" when.. there has not been one successful attempt at it in the last decade. Which is the current case of these unbalanced games.
PS: Here is the MMORPG.COM review score for Eternal Cursades 4.8 The core shooter mechanic doesn’t feel good. The world map is for show. Game has balance issues.
So ironic...
Not ironic at all, and if you read any of my posts, I explained that Eternal Crusade started out as a much bigger project, and it was marketed as such. The original plan was for it to be more along the lines of Warhammer Online just for the 40K universe, so it was built with the idea of being a Open World Faction vs Faction MMO, and had a whole class, gear, leveling and progress system built into it to reflect this.
Like many of these upstart indie game companies, like Panethon, Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, etc, it sold it's product before it made the product.
What they put out due to budget and time constraints, fell far short of what they promised.. hence the massively bad reviews.
Unless you are going to have the bare faced audacity to tell me that you think MMORPG's metric sore is what we should use to determine the quality of a game and what is the best things to do?
Well.. in case anyone wants to know the end result of the importance of Balance in PvP, even the legendary Slapshot, could not come up with a PvP game with poor balance that was less than 10 years that didn't tank like a MF.
So, when people are wondering "is Balance important?" well.. the answer is: If it's a PvP game, Yes, otherwise, No.
Now, do PvP games need to be balanced? Only if they want to survive with a semi-decent population.
That is the end result of this discussion. No matter what anyone wants to hem and haw about.
This is what happens when people jump to false conclusions to fit their narrative.
Now.. THIS.. is Irony.
Which.. hey look.. all the most hyped games are F2P w/ Cash shop, that means that must be a good idea and a good thing and you should embrace it and love it.. by your standard.. right ol' chum?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If your character determines who wins and looses.. you're not playing a Player vs Player game, you're playing a Puppet vs Puppet game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Well.. in case anyone wants to know the end result of the importance of Balance in PvP, even the legendary Slapshot, could not come up with a PvP game with poor balance that was less than 10 years that didn't tank like a MF.
If the market determines what is right and wrong then we're stuck with PTW cash shops, micro-transactions, and loot boxes. Hey man, the customer is always right!
The market determines what is successful.
Now, this in no way stops a company from making a game for a very small niche group of players, assuming they walk into the whole project knowing that will be the end result, a very small niche group of players. Much like a game marketing itself as a Hard core raid game, needs to know that they will only get a small subset of players into that game.
Even games that have failed miserably have contributed to the MMO world, because they had some great designs in an overall bad package.
Now, in this vein, it's hard to say "The players want this" when.. there has not been one successful attempt at it in the last decade. Which is the current case of these unbalanced games.
PS: Here is the MMORPG.COM review score for Eternal Cursades 4.8 The core shooter mechanic doesn’t feel good. The world map is for show. Game has balance issues.
So ironic...
Not ironic at all, and if you read any of my posts, I explained that Eternal Crusade started out as a much bigger project, and it was marketed as such. The original plan was for it to be more along the lines of Warhammer Online just for the 40K universe, so it was built with the idea of being a Open World Faction vs Faction MMO, and had a whole class, gear, leveling and progress system built into it to reflect this.
Like many of these upstart indie game companies, like Panethon, Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, etc, it sold it's product before it made the product.
What they put out due to budget and time constraints, fell far short of what they promised.. hence the massively bad reviews.
Unless you are going to have the bare faced audacity to tell me that you think MMORPG's metric sore is what we should use to determine the quality of a game and what is the best things to do?
Well.. in case anyone wants to know the end result of the importance of Balance in PvP, even the legendary Slapshot, could not come up with a PvP game with poor balance that was less than 10 years that didn't tank like a MF.
So, when people are wondering "is Balance important?" well.. the answer is: If it's a PvP game, Yes, otherwise, No.
Now, do PvP games need to be balanced? Only if they want to survive with a semi-decent population.
That is the end result of this discussion. No matter what anyone wants to hem and haw about.
This is what happens when people jump to false conclusions to fit their narrative.
Now.. THIS.. is Irony.
Which.. hey look.. all the most hyped games are F2P w/ Cash shop, that means that must be a good idea and a good thing and you should embrace it and love it.. by your standard.. right ol' chum?
You have actually reached the utterly incomprehensible stage of the discussion. No idea what you are even trying to say anymore.
But its OK. You have fun with the shooters and Battle Royales. Nothing wrong with them. I play them on occasion myself.
Have fun!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'll say this again. DAOC was a Bad PvP Game, and it crashed and burned far faster than other Golden Age MMO's because it didn't abide by the idea the player mattered .. Not sure how many times I will have to say that before it gets though your thick skull.. this is the 5th..
DAoC didn't crash and burn, lasted strong for 4-5 years at the top of the heap...
I'll say this again. DAOC was a Bad PvP Game, and it crashed and burned far faster than other Golden Age MMO's because it didn't abide by the idea the player mattered .. Not sure how many times I will have to say that before it gets though your thick skull.. this is the 5th..
DAoC didn't crash and burn, lasted strong for 4-5 years at the top of the heap...
Well not sure where you get your sources, but, they are wrong. DAoC lasted 2 years with a plateaued population and than went right into decline. I may have been at the top of the heap of games like it. since it was unique, but it was not even a contender against other MMO's coming out during it's era.
You have actually reached the utterly incomprehensible stage of the discussion. No idea what you are even trying to say anymore.
Sorry @Slapshot1188 looks like I said too many words and lost you.
Well.. bye.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Yup.. as always, I see you are not rising up to answer my question either.
Care to try your hand?
Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
Ive been playing MMORPGs for over 21 years now ,
still playing UO and have played each of the games i listed to end game
and participated in all the PvP/RvR anyone could ever want ..
I cant tell you how many times ive been utterly rekt or our group or a friend etc.. in different games ..
And we laugh our asses off ..
Then we look at combat logs , and start to figure out what happen and
what we can do to win that next encounter , and many times we/I do find a
solution .. Many folks enjoy that , tweaking your build, finding ways
to debuff/slience/counter an enemy/or group , changing your groups Tactics
approach to certain situations..
yes it s fun ..
we have a saying with my group of friends ( that many ive been with since AC Darktide )
Die with style ..
Dont piss/moan/cry/whine/flee etc... ..
You cant get butt hurt over your pixels getting owned , it going to
happen in MMORPG , but you also always have the oppurtunity and means to
improve wether its Build/Gear/Skills/Group mechainics etc , to have a
better outcome the next time .. ..
And TBH im gonna tell ya i find less challenge and or fun in
FPS/BR/Arena games they are far to predictable for me .. and boring ..
I find much more fun in running into PVp/RVR not knowing exactly what there skills/Build may be..
Rather than a game like Fortnite and the only differnece is if you are wearing a French Frie Backpack ...
Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
This is presented with no context so it is difficult to answer. For example, what is the "win" condition?
I think back to The Hobbit wherein Bilbo was conversing with the dragon. He had no hope winning in a straight up PvP fight and merely escaping with his life was a sort of win. So until 'win' is defined it is difficult to answer the question.
I had fun in many games where I didn't stand a chance of killing the guy but merely completing an objective or escaping was thrilling in its own right.
Where the bears on the question we face is that if a game only seeks to define and balanced PvP in terms of a straight up death match - and the mechanics and balance are so locked down that the twitch monkey is going to win every time - then that game is being defeated by its own slavish adherence to balance, balance cast into terms that are boring for those of us looking for more.
Going back to an example I shared earlier:
In UO I didn't have the build for PvP. I compensated by leaving town with literally nothing only to tame my weapons and gather any supplies I needed. If a PK would appear I'd drop my loot under a tree, run off and allow the PK to kill me, and then return and get all my loot. Often, it cost the PK more to kill me than he'd win by looting my mostly empty corpse. I'd get 0.1 Magic Resist out of the encounter, the PK got a murder count and lost money.
I'd argue that I won that encounter.
I've yet to find a game that allows me to win in that manner. Instead, they all put everyone on rails and hand the game over to twitch monkeys and mathematicians.
I don't care that the 1-dimensional games of today are popular.
Ungood, I didn't see the post where you answered how to balance a PvP game that features significant progression. I'd be interested to know how to accomplish that.
Well not sure where you get your sources, but, they are wrong. DAoC lasted 2 years with a plateaued population and than went right into decline. I may have been at the top of the heap of games like it. since it was unique, but it was not even a contender against other MMO's coming out during it's era.
DAoC is still going, even with a $15mo sub, dispite being 17 years old and not having an expansion released for over a decade. What keeps people playing it?... it's RvR system. We may have a difference of opinion here, but I would call that a success.
A yes, it was the "top of the heap just like it" as we are talking about MMOs. You can't compare MMOs to console games or free FPS PC games.
Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
Ive been playing MMORPGs for over 21 years now ,
still playing UO and have played each of the games i listed to end game
and participated in all the PvP/RvR anyone could ever want ..
I cant tell you how many times ive been utterly rekt or our group or a friend etc.. in different games ..
And we laugh our asses off ..
Then we look at combat logs , and start to figure out what happen and
what we can do to win that next encounter , and many times we/I do find a
solution .. Many folks enjoy that , tweaking your build, finding ways
to debuff/slience/counter an enemy/or group , changing your groups Tactics
approach to certain situations..
yes it s fun ..
we have a saying with my group of friends ( that many ive been with since AC Darktide )
Die with style ..
This only applies IF there is a counter.. IF there is a way for you to have a fair fight.
Having that implies the game is balanced, where you can have a fighting chance.
Now, I'll use an example. I was playing a Engineer in GW2, because I liked the idea of the Engineer kits and builds, it seemed kinda fun, I also liked the idea of using a rifle. But, try as I might, there was nothing I could do to stop a Thief from killing me in WvW. They would pop out of hiding and one shot me dead.
So, I asked on the forums for build advice, I asked about tactics, anything that as an Engineer I could have at the very least, a fighting chance against a Thief in PvP, and I was told flat up that Engineners were not viable in PvP and I was SOL.
So.. with that put out.
I am going to ask again.
Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So, when people are wondering "is Balance important?" well.. the answer is: If it's a PvP game, Yes, otherwise, No.
Now, do PvP games need to be balanced? Only if they want to survive with a semi-decent population.
That is the end result of this discussion. No matter what anyone wants to hem and haw about.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
For a pve game this 1 vs 1 balancing is the result of single player focused game design, and trying to micro manage the game experience of players. Essentially in pve, balance is the fix for removing roles, and this fix has some sideffects.
For a pvp game 1 vs 1 balancing spring from the ideology that you can make pvp fair. I can only speak as a outsider or casual pvp player, but it does not seem like fairness is what any pvp player wants. Isn't it more about using your advantages whenever you can, situational and otherwise, trick your opponent and get rewarded when you succeed in it - It certainly is for me when I do pvp. But if this is the case, then overbalancing removes many of these opportunities that makes the pvp play fun..and I use the word overbalance because balance is good but it has a very impactful tipping point.
But really it comes back to 1 vs 1 balancing and designing for single player pvp and fear of causing distress to any player (funny in itself for a pvp game but shrug..), instead of co-op pvp which only needs relative balancing.
My favorite pvp (yeah rip my head off now haha) is still stuff like WoW battlegrounds where classes-roles-builds were not at all balanced, but when co-operating there were not any real weak builds because it was in everyones interest to protect their team mates..it was balanced as a whole and not so much on 1 vs 1 base. Also a game like Overwatch follows this principle, and I am not a Actiblizz fan in any way, but in these cases they hit pvp exactly as I like it.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
This is one reason behind the homogenous easy mode classes we see today, it is just easier to do. But if you can get it right proper class structure and play is unbeatable gameplay.
I've not played any new MMORPG in years because the cookie cutter approach to class balance and utter lack of depth or ability to innovate has left me bored. I know the entire game before I get past the character creation screens.
So while busloads of nitwits continue to waste their time trying to decide between a fire mage and a necromancer (1) I'm going to continue to wait for a game that understands balance in different terms, maybe exploring excellent play as something other than the seizures of a hyper caffeinated twitch monkeys.
A market full of vanilla offerings where the developers have sacrificed all to the demon god balance is a market waiting for something innovative and disruptive. Probably be a niche game and I'm okay with that.
NOTES
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1: It is a tough choice because the fire mage has a fireball spell that does 50pts. of damage and the necromancer has a hellfire spell that does 50pts of damage - so many options, how do you decide?
Trying to balance PvP at the character level in an MMORPG is a fools errand.
PS: Here is the MMORPG.COM review score for Eternal Cursades
4.8 The core shooter mechanic doesn’t feel good. The world map is for show. Game has balance issues.
So ironic...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Now, this in no way stops a company from making a game for a very small niche group of players, assuming they walk into the whole project knowing that will be the end result, a very small niche group of players. Much like a game marketing itself as a Hard core raid game, needs to know that they will only get a small subset of players into that game.
Even games that have failed miserably have contributed to the MMO world, because they had some great designs in an overall bad package.
Now, in this vein, it's hard to say "The players want this" when.. there has not been one successful attempt at it in the last decade. Which is the current case of these unbalanced games.
Not ironic at all, and if you read any of my posts, I explained that Eternal Crusade started out as a much bigger project, and it was marketed as such. The original plan was for it to be more along the lines of Warhammer Online just for the 40K universe, so it was built with the idea of being a Open World Faction vs Faction MMO, and had a whole class, gear, leveling and progress system built into it to reflect this.
Like many of these upstart indie game companies, like Panethon, Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, etc, it sold it's product before it made the product.
What they put out due to budget and time constraints, fell far short of what they promised.. hence the massively bad reviews.
Unless you are going to have the bare faced audacity to tell me that you think MMORPG's metric sore is what we should use to determine the quality of a game and what is the best things to do?
Now.. THIS.. is Irony.
Which.. hey look.. all the most hyped games are F2P w/ Cash shop, that means that must be a good idea and a good thing and you should embrace it and love it.. by your standard.. right ol' chum?
If your character determines who wins and looses.. you're not playing a Player vs Player game, you're playing a Puppet vs Puppet game.
You made a point that Imbalance is Fun.
Ok.. so in the sense of trying to see your side of this, explain to me how knowing you will lose an encounter based purely on the class you have opted to play vs the class that is facing you, is Fun.
Constant as the North Star...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But its OK. You have fun with the shooters and Battle Royales. Nothing wrong with them. I play them on occasion myself.
Have fun!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Well.. bye.
Care to try your hand?
For example, what is the "win" condition?
I think back to The Hobbit wherein Bilbo was conversing with the dragon. He had no hope winning in a straight up PvP fight and merely escaping with his life was a sort of win. So until 'win' is defined it is difficult to answer the question.
I had fun in many games where I didn't stand a chance of killing the guy but merely completing an objective or escaping was thrilling in its own right.
Where the bears on the question we face is that if a game only seeks to define and balanced PvP in terms of a straight up death match - and the mechanics and balance are so locked down that the twitch monkey is going to win every time - then that game is being defeated by its own slavish adherence to balance, balance cast into terms that are boring for those of us looking for more.
Going back to an example I shared earlier:
In UO I didn't have the build for PvP. I compensated by leaving town with literally nothing only to tame my weapons and gather any supplies I needed. If a PK would appear I'd drop my loot under a tree, run off and allow the PK to kill me, and then return and get all my loot. Often, it cost the PK more to kill me than he'd win by looting my mostly empty corpse. I'd get 0.1 Magic Resist out of the encounter, the PK got a murder count and lost money.
I'd argue that I won that encounter.
I've yet to find a game that allows me to win in that manner.
Instead, they all put everyone on rails and hand the game over to twitch monkeys and mathematicians.
I don't care that the 1-dimensional games of today are popular.
If people don't feel like the game is fair, they either won't play... or they're more likely to cheat... Neither of those is good for the game.
This only applies IF there is a counter.. IF there is a way for you to have a fair fight.
Having that implies the game is balanced, where you can have a fighting chance.
Now, I'll use an example. I was playing a Engineer in GW2, because I liked the idea of the Engineer kits and builds, it seemed kinda fun, I also liked the idea of using a rifle. But, try as I might, there was nothing I could do to stop a Thief from killing me in WvW. They would pop out of hiding and one shot me dead.
So, I asked on the forums for build advice, I asked about tactics, anything that as an Engineer I could have at the very least, a fighting chance against a Thief in PvP, and I was told flat up that Engineners were not viable in PvP and I was SOL.
So.. with that put out.
I am going to ask again.