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Is Balance All That?

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  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Ungood said:

    This topic is about PvP.

    In case you missed that.
    Hi, I'm Wargfoot and I authored the thread.
    I think I know what my own thread is about.

    Slapshot1188AlBQuirky
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 778
    edited February 2019
    Play the game in my Sig.

    It has, gear, levels, classes, factions, everything an MMO has, and damn near ideal balance.

    Then come back and here and justify to me why everyone else can't do the same.


    The point of an MMO used to be a deeper, more immersive experience.  Now everything is the same in a failed attempt to create balance.  This is why I keep pushing DAoC as an example of a good MMO.  For example: All three realms had access to a speed class, but one was on a tank, one on a stealther and one on a healer with secondary speed classes coming in the way of a casters and hybrid.  All three realms had access to CC, Blade Turn, buffs, etc. which were again spread out among various classes. 

    Almost every skill accessible in one realm was available on various classes in the other two realms.  Balance without homogenization.

    People who play MMOs want a system that is deeper than what you will find in a MOBA or shooter.  This makes balance difficult, so they take the easy road and make shit games where everything is the same.

    Post edited by ultimateduck on
    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,233
    Ungood said:

    This topic is about PvP.

    In case you missed that.
    Hi, I'm Wargfoot and I authored the thread.
    I think I know what my own thread is about.

    I know.. which is what is making this so ironic.. you're OP was all about PvP.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,233
    The point of an MMO used to be a deeper, more immersive experience.  Now everything is the same in a failed attempt to create balance.  This is why I keep pushing DAoC as an example of a good MMO.  For example: All three realms had access to a speed class, but one was on a tank, one on a stealther and one on a healer with secondary speed classes coming in the way of a casters and hybrid.  All three realms had access to CC, Blade Turn, buffs, etc. which were again spread out among various classes. 

    Almost every skill accessible in one realm was available on various classes in the other two realms.  Balance without homogenization.

    People who play MMOs want a system that is deeper than what you will find in a MOBA or shooter.  This makes balance difficult, so they take the easy road and make shit games where everything is the same.

    Before I get into a long discussion with you, I am going to ask if you have actually played Eternal Crusade? and I don't mean, loaded up the game, joined a battle and got your ass kicked, cried and said this game sucks. I mean have you at least gotten a few levels into the game, to get a feel for how the progress system works.

    I ask this, because Eternal Crusade was first designed to be an PvP MMO, and ended up being a mainly PvP Battle due to lack of funding and meeting a deadline.

    So I often use it as a standard for building balance for these PvP games, given it is own construct but applies to many various styles of games.

    In any case, as I see it, what real PvP players want (Not Gankers and Trolls) is the combat of an MOBA, and the immersive world of an MMO.

    This is what made Fortnight the ground breaking success it was. It had all the things checked off and done pretty good a map that you could in fact explore, destructible environment, levels (for what they are worth), various kinds of gear and equipment, and a whole build/fight mechanic.. it was addictive as anything.

    The fact the whole game revolved around shooting.. was not for me, as I am old school melee player, but.. the game design itself was amazing.

    Which is why Fortnight had 80 Million Players, Overwatch has 40 Million, and WoW had 12 Million.

    No one is going to play any PvP based game, regardless if it is marketed as an MMO, MOBA, BR, or anything else, and know that playing some specific classes will leave them at an abject disadvantage.

    Now, I'll admit, there are some players will take the worst classes and make their own game of being successful with them, these players are very few and far between, I would doubt there is enough of them to keep a single game going.

    In a PvP game, the vast majority of players will strive for any and every advantage they can get. 

    KyleranAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:

    This topic is about PvP.

    In case you missed that.
    Hi, I'm Wargfoot and I authored the thread.
    I think I know what my own thread is about.

    I know.. which is what is making this so ironic.. you're OP was all about PvP.
    It isn't really just about PvP.

    What if a mage really, really sucked in PvP but could really rake in the coin in PvE.

    That could be a type of balance - to make balance only about mirrored classes in PvP really limits the different ways in which a game could be played.  So yeah, the thread is heavily focused on PvP (naturally) but I'm criticizing the goal of making players perfectly balanced only in PvP and that being the definition of balance.

    Only allowing one type of PvP (twitch based) and making essentially mirrored classes for the sake of balance really limits creativity and results in the endless quest for balance that cycles  through FOTM classes on a regular basis.  Totally sucks.

    You may know of a game that has avoided that; I do not.
    ultimateduckAlBQuirky
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 778
    Ungood said:

    Before I get into a long discussion with you, I am going to ask if you have actually played Eternal Crusade? and I don't mean, loaded up the game, joined a battle and got your ass kicked, cried and said this game sucks. I mean have you at least gotten a few levels into the game, to get a feel for how the progress system works.

    I ask this, because Eternal Crusade was first designed to be an PvP MMO, and ended up being a mainly PvP Battle due to lack of funding and meeting a deadline.

    So I often use it as a standard for building balance for these PvP games, given it is own construct but applies to many various styles of games.

    In any case, as I see it, what real PvP players want (Not Gankers and Trolls) is the combat of an MOBA, and the immersive world of an MMO.

    This is what made Fortnight the ground breaking success it was. It had all the things checked off and done pretty good a map that you could in fact explore, destructible environment, levels (for what they are worth), various kinds of gear and equipment, and a whole build/fight mechanic.. it was addictive as anything.

    The fact the whole game revolved around shooting.. was not for me, as I am old school melee player, but.. the game design itself was amazing.

    Which is why Fortnight had 80 Million Players, Overwatch has 40 Million, and WoW had 12 Million.

    No one is going to play any PvP based game, regardless if it is marketed as an MMO, MOBA, BR, or anything else, and know that playing some specific classes will leave them at an abject disadvantage.

    Now, I'll admit, there are some players will take the worst classes and make their own game of being successful with them, these players are very few and far between, I would doubt there is enough of them to keep a single game going.

    In a PvP game, the vast majority of players will strive for any and every advantage they can get. 

    I have not played Eternal Crusades. I followed it when it was in development but it seemed to fall off the map.  I feel like Warhammer releases a game every 6 months that can be deemed "barely OK".  I don't generally like MOBAs although I will admit I play Overwatch and I played Global Agenda, so I will have to give it a try.

    What real MMO PvP players want is a character they can develop, not just log into.  A character with more than one viable play option, not just a FOTM.  A character with more than one viable gear option instead of the same end game set that everyone else is wearing..  A character than is unique to their "side", not a carbon copy of the the classes on the "other side". 

    Games like Fortnight are free and easy to log in and out of.  You can log in, play and log out.  They will always have high player counts.  While not free, Overwatch fits in the same category as easy to pop in and out.  They require little time invested to get going, mostly just familiarizing yourself with the class.

    MMOs should be a world with a community and a character within that community you can make your own from level 1 to cap (and in some cases, laterally after capping the level).  They are turning in to homogenized single player games that you can quick group, do a task, and un-group, and carry on with your single player game that happens to have others around playing their single player game.  Why?... laziness, lack of social skills and the guise of balance.
    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,233
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:

    This topic is about PvP.

    In case you missed that.
    Hi, I'm Wargfoot and I authored the thread.
    I think I know what my own thread is about.

    I know.. which is what is making this so ironic.. you're OP was all about PvP.
    It isn't really just about PvP.

    What if a mage really, really sucked in PvP but could really rake in the coin in PvE.

    That could be a type of balance - to make balance only about mirrored classes in PvP really limits the different ways in which a game could be played.  So yeah, the thread is heavily focused on PvP (naturally) but I'm criticizing the goal of making players perfectly balanced only in PvP and that being the definition of balance.

    Only allowing one type of PvP (twitch based) and making essentially mirrored classes for the sake of balance really limits creativity and results in the endless quest for balance that cycles  through FOTM classes on a regular basis.  Totally sucks.

    You may know of a game that has avoided that; I do not.
    ok.. Major Point Here. In case anyone has missed the MMO world for the last 20 years.

    Balance does not mean jack shit in PvE, as PvE MMO's can build totally inter dependent classes and solo classes (A la EQ) and have zero fucks given about balance.

    The only time Balance matters in any real sense, is in PvP. 
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Ungood said:

    ok.. Major Point Here. In case anyone has missed the MMO world for the last 20 years.

    Balance does not mean jack shit in PvE, as PvE MMO's can build totally inter dependent classes and solo classes (A la EQ) and have zero fucks given about balance.

    The only time Balance matters in any real sense, is in PvP. 
    That is definitely not true.

    I've seen people in PvE games upset that class X can solo 30 mobs while class Y can only solo 3.  In a PvE game the ability to pull in resources twice as fast as everyone else would be viewed as a problem by many people.
    AlBQuirky
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 778
    ok.. Major Point Here. In case anyone has missed the MMO world for the last 20 years.

    Balance does not mean jack shit in PvE, as PvE MMO's can build totally inter dependent classes and solo classes (A la EQ) and have zero fucks given about balance.

    The only time Balance matters in any real sense, is in PvP. 
    You don't think the economy of a game can be ruined by OP'd classes in PvE?  Balance in PvE matters.  It can effect who gets into groups for a dungeon run or kill a dragon, or if a group is even needed when a single OPd class can farm an entire camp alone (see Necro in DAoC). 

    It can completely wreck the games dynamic when some classes aren't even remotely effective in PvE even though they may be very effective in PvP.
    AlBQuirky
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,872
    ok.. Major Point Here. In case anyone has missed the MMO world for the last 20 years.

    Balance does not mean jack shit in PvE, as PvE MMO's can build totally inter dependent classes and solo classes (A la EQ) and have zero fucks given about balance.

    The only time Balance matters in any real sense, is in PvP. 
    You don't think the economy of a game can be ruined by OP'd classes in PvE?  Balance in PvE matters.  It can effect who gets into groups for a dungeon run or kill a dragon, or if a group is even needed when a single OPd class can farm an entire camp alone (see Necro in DAoC). 

    It can completely wreck the games dynamic when some classes aren't even remotely effective in PvE even though they may be very effective in PvP.
    What you are talking about is a bad developer,poor implementation.Can it ruin the economy,it most certainly can but i can tell you with 35 years of gaming RMT is by a landslide the number 1 blemish on gaming ..period.You could have the most OP class in the history of gaming RMT trumps that 1 million fold.

    Even without any rmt,the idea is not accurate IF the game is even remotely well done.Example to prove the point?Let's say for easy argument only 2 elite drop bosses in the entire game.Well your OP class is only really capable of defeating one of them because of certain Ai/abilities/resistances.Then quite possible as should be many other classes can also handle that Boss.Then you get the rest handling the other Boss.Also if your game is using a sub class system,then ANYONE and everyone has access to that EXACT same class/build.

    group invite problem?This again is the developers fault and poor implementation as well can be a problem with your community more than the ideas.If the game offers CHOICE like more than one option for a group you can build a group with the very players available and not rely only on certain builds.We already have issues with groups needing a tank/healer but guess what, these are called ROLE playing games,you SHOULD have a ROLE within a group.Point being there are or can be several problems within the grouping idea or Boss killing idea,ALL of those problems can be solved by a good developer and players willing to adhere to CHOICE.


    Ungood

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,872
    Even if it doesn't sink in to stubborn minds,the fact is that differentiating between the two choices of PVP or PVE,balance matters WAY less in PVE than PVP.
    Why the heck do you think i am always frustrated by game designs,the developers are just crap,they don't seem to have a clue how to design games properly to at the very least IMPROVE on problem areas.
    all i am seeing time and again are released games where the developer put NO effort into making sure cheating is taken care of,bugs are minimized,content works,systems and UI work for everyone and are able to customize it to meet your needs.make sure systems work for all player/builds,make sure content is viable for all classes,it goes on and on,games are just being released in a terrible unfinished unpolished state.
    Ungood

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,019
    edited February 2019
    Wizardry said:
    Why the heck do you think i am always frustrated by game designs,the developers are just crap,they don't seem to have a clue how to design games properly to at the very least IMPROVE on problem areas.
    all i am seeing time and again are released games where the developer put NO effort into making sure cheating is taken care of,bugs are minimized,content works,systems and UI work for everyone and are able to customize it to meet your needs.make sure systems work for all player/builds,make sure content is viable for all classes,it goes on and on,games are just being released in a terrible unfinished unpolished state.
    On the point of dev's putting "no" effort into making sure cheating is taken care of. No one is omniscient first of all. You can design the world's most secure lock, and someone else will figure out how to break it using a method you never thought of. That's just how human's are.

    No matter what methods a dev would use to make their game cheat proof, it will be broken. This is a simple fact. It does not mean that they put "no" effort into making it cheatproof.

    Similarly, the point on bugs. Yes, there are a great many mmo's out there that bugs are rampant and go unfixed, but this is usually a matter of having enough money to spare to throw at bug fixes or not. If there's no room in the budget for it, they go unfixed, especially if it's a minor one that isn't gonna crash the economy or game breaking.

    Really everything you want comes down to requiring boat loads of money, or simply being an inevitable event that will happen no matter what.
    AlBQuirky

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,233
    ok.. Major Point Here. In case anyone has missed the MMO world for the last 20 years.

    Balance does not mean jack shit in PvE, as PvE MMO's can build totally inter dependent classes and solo classes (A la EQ) and have zero fucks given about balance.

    The only time Balance matters in any real sense, is in PvP. 
    You don't think the economy of a game can be ruined by OP'd classes in PvE?  Balance in PvE matters.  It can effect who gets into groups for a dungeon run or kill a dragon, or if a group is even needed when a single OPd class can farm an entire camp alone (see Necro in DAoC). 

    It can completely wreck the games dynamic when some classes aren't even remotely effective in PvE even though they may be very effective in PvP.
    Just a note.

    DAoC was a PvP Focused game.. in case anyone didn't know this.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 778
    What... blah, blah, blah... to CHOICE.


    Any way you want to word it, PvE balance is important.  It can absolutely effect character progression, loot availability, crafting materials and a lot of other things that bleed in to PvP.

    Ungood, it was a mix.  Each realm in DAoC had a huge PvE world with a ton of content.  The endgame was RvR or PvE farming.  The PvE portion definitely effected the PvP portion.  Some zones were used in PvE and PvP (DF) and all of the RvR zones had PvE content.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,233
    Gonna say this again for Everyone.

    Balance only really matters for PvP games. 

    There is no such thing as "a Mixed Game" if the game has PvP, than the classes need to be balanced for that game mode.

    In case there was any confusion.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 778
    Ungood said:
    Gonna say this again for Everyone.

    Balance only really matters for PvP games. 

    There is no such thing as "a Mixed Game" if the game has PvP, than the classes need to be balanced for that game mode.

    In case there was any confusion.
    I'm gonna say this for everyone.

    Ungood is incorrect. 

    Balance matters in all aspects of an MMO. There is such thing as a mixed game that was designed with PvE and PvP.

    ... and there is not confusion, except yours.
    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,233
    Ungood said:
    Gonna say this again for Everyone.

    Balance only really matters for PvP games. 

    There is no such thing as "a Mixed Game" if the game has PvP, than the classes need to be balanced for that game mode.

    In case there was any confusion.
    I'm gonna say this for everyone.

    Ungood is incorrect. 

    Balance matters in all aspects of an MMO. There is such thing as a mixed game that was designed with PvE and PvP.

    ... and there is not confusion, except yours.
    Nope.

    I am going to say this to you, so that you understand, this is not some feels on my part, this has been tested and proven to be absolutely true since EverQuest, that has had decades of game playing and developing across many MMO's that have shown that purely PvE MMO's do not in fact need to worry about balance.

    Also, and this has been tested and proven since UO, that MMO's with PvP in them, need to be balanced for their PvP Mode, this includes any impact that the PvE would have upon the PvP mode.

    Now, here is a challenge for you, find me a purely PvE MMO that has "Balance Issues"

    Now find me an MMO that has PvP, that the issues of balance in the game do not in some way relate to the PvP aspect of the game.

    Good Luck. 

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,233
    In fact, as far back as 1999, EQ proves you could make totally helpless classes in a PvE game, and they would still be massively successful. In fact, it was PvE games that built the idea of being good at one thing or having a special trait or feature to their class, thus building a whole team work (That whole Playing a Role in the Group make up) set up for their MMO.

    Since than, PvP games have been trying to emulate the same idea of inter-dependency or unique abilities denoted to a class, that PvE games have enjoyed since their inception, with varying degrees of catastrophic fail.

    That is because, Balance Matters in PvP games.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 523
    Reality check... the only thing that matters in PVP is whether there is enough people participating.

    Balance may deter you from playing one spec or another or even one side or the other, but what it doesn't do is deter you from playing.  Plenty of scenarios take place in which once side is grossly outnumbered and yet PVP still continues to happen.  Even getting slaughtered can be fun.  But what isn't fun is logging in to a game in which there is no one.

    People assume PVP is all about the eSports scene... being the best of the best, highest ranking, et al.  Reality is, the preponderance of the players in PVP never rise to that level of distinction... and yet, they continue to play..

    PVP dies when no one is there participating.  Period.  It's not about class A being ominously OP because anyone can roll one if they so desire.  It's not about one side having more healers or more team members... because that scenario waffles as often as the tides come and go.  If it was such a show stopper... PVP would have died decades ago.

    So no, balance has zero to do with anything except to those self-absorbed egotists that make up the smallest percentage of the player base.  They will continue to bitch and PVP will continue to go on... until the day, no one logs on.

    People aren't looking for fair... they're looking for fun.  If they didn't want to PVP, they wouldn't PVP.  So as much as they say one thing... their actions say an entirely different thing.

    Unless there is absolutely no one participating in PVP whatsoever, the state of PVP is just fine. 
    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,233
    btdt said:
    People aren't looking for fair... they're looking for fun.
    Fair and Fun are Synonymous as far as PvP Goes. 

    Almost no one finds unfair games fun, and that is why unbalanced games soon find themselves with a swiftly dying population.

    Which is why.. oh right.. balance is important, because it keeps the game fun, and fun games keep people playing.

    See how that works?
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,199
    Balance is an illusion frequently sought to the detriment of actual FUN.
    It is the chasing of this impossible balance that causes games to fail.

    The entire premise of PvP in a true open-world MMO is based on IMBALANCE.  It's the random factor of not knowing who is going to fight you, or how many, or where...  THAT is the essence of open world PvP.

    Trying to chase balance is a fool's errand





    AlBQuirkySteelhelm

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,233
    The Sole point of PvP game to start with, is that victory lies in the hands of the player, not the character.

    Imbalance puts victory in the hands of the character not the player.


    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,199
    Ungood said:
    The Sole point of PvP game to start with, is that victory lies in the hands of the player, not the character.

    Imbalance puts victory in the hands of the character not the player.


    Who the heck decided decided that?  You?

    That is absolutely 100% not true for me.  At all.


    AlBQuirky

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,233
    Ungood said:
    The Sole point of PvP game to start with, is that victory lies in the hands of the player, not the character.

    Imbalance puts victory in the hands of the character not the player.


    Who the heck decided decided that?  You?

    That is absolutely 100% not true for me.  At all.


    It may not be true for you,

    But, that was decided by every successful PvP game out there.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,233
    Tell ya what @Slapshot1188 , because you know, we are such chums, I'll give you a chance to shut me down.

    Just name a PvP game made in the last.. say 10 years.. where the balance sucked balls, but it was still AAA successful.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
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