Sweet, glad to hear it. Ive heard theyve made lots of progress on performance over the past few months, battles with hundreds may be more realistic for Crowfall than people realize.
So what you are saying is that they are 18 months out
I'll have to load it up and give it my every 6 months test spin.
The game is very much still in alpha regardless what they want to call it. 18 months to a no kidding real release is being kind.
I see my 2-2.5 year estimate as being optimistic, in the sense that I believe they have the money and skill to actually meet their Kickstarter goals and launch a solid, fun game in that amount of time - as opposed to thinking they'll end up needing to launch unfinished by the end of 2019.
Edit: that said, theres no PvE leveling, no quests or raids or dungeons or NPC factions and they use procedural generation for the terrain.
Going from all-game-systems complete to ready-to-launch may be quicker than expected.
So what you are saying is that they are 18 months out
I'll have to load it up and give it my every 6 months test spin.
The game is very much still in alpha regardless what they want to call it. 18 months to a no kidding real release is being kind.
I see my 2-2.5 year estimate as being optimistic, in the sense that I believe they have the money and skill to actually meet their Kickstarter goals and launch a solid, fun game in that amount of time - as opposed to thinking they'll end up needing to launch unfinished by the end of 2019.
Edit: that said, theres no PvE leveling, no quests or raids or dungeons or NPC factions and they use procedural generation for the terrain.
Going from all-game-systems complete to ready-to-launch may be quicker than expected.
Never use the word "quicker" when referencing indie MMO delivery schedules, especially not CU which is coming up on the 6 year mark in April.
Realize your 2.5 year "optimistic" estimate is 6 months longer than was promised in the Kickstarter.
Go read MJs many replies over on the MassivelyOP thread linked in the OP. It's clear he's become obsessed with creating a large scale battlefield the likes never seen before in MMO space.
Its also clear he's lost his way and forgotten he promised to deliver a functioning game in a reasonable time.
He really won't release it before he's satisfied his desire, even if it takes another 3 to 5 years. (Because he's doing it all for the backers, don't ya know)
It's not without good reason he no longer shows his face here, even on usually passive Massively some of the responses he received were withering, yet he let the band play on about how "great" an achievement this is.
I suppose so, if the goal is to market a MMO battle engine, which I'm starting to think is the long game here.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So what you are saying is that they are 18 months out
I'll have to load it up and give it my every 6 months test spin.
The game is very much still in alpha regardless what they want to call it. 18 months to a no kidding real release is being kind.
I see my 2-2.5 year estimate as being optimistic, in the sense that I believe they have the money and skill to actually meet their Kickstarter goals and launch a solid, fun game in that amount of time - as opposed to thinking they'll end up needing to launch unfinished by the end of 2019.
Edit: that said, theres no PvE leveling, no quests or raids or dungeons or NPC factions and they use procedural generation for the terrain.
Going from all-game-systems complete to ready-to-launch may be quicker than expected.
Never use the word "quicker" when referencing indie MMO delivery schedules, especially not CU which is coming up on the 6 year mark in April.
Realize your 2.5 year "optimistic" estimate is 6 months longer than was promised in the Kickstarter.
Go read MJs many replies over on the MassivelyOP thread linked in the OP. It's clear he's become obsessed with creating a large scale battlefield the likes never seen before in MMO space.
Its also clear he's lost his way and forgotten he promised to deliver a functioning game in a reasonable time.
He really won't release it before he's satisfied his desire, even if it takes another 3 to 5 years. (Because he's doing it all for the backers, don't ya know)
It's not without good reason he no longer shows his face here, even on usually passive Massively some of the responses he received were withering, yet he let the band play on about how "great" an achievement this is.
I suppose so, if the goal is to market a MMO battle engine, which I'm starting to think is the long game here.
I meant 2.5 years from here to launch, which is optimistic in the sense that I think more gameplay features will be added faster in the next 1.5 years than in the last 4.
Your post is actually one of the better criticisms I've seen of CSE and the game's development - most of them are a variation on "I want it now!".
Thing is, your take on the massive MMO engine being the long game isn't something we can confirm or deny at this point. But it is a reasonable speculation to make.
Andrew responded to this concern on stream a few weeks back, basically saying: the value of the engine for making an MMORPG gets proved by shipping this game. So if they want credibility (aka promotion) of their engine, then they need to make this game sell super well and impress the pants off of other devs at and after release.
I dont know how true an insight that is into these things, cause I'm not a mostly-unbiased game dev who might be interested in using their engine.
MJ responded to my confusion in the article comments about "why show off massive bot battles, game needs more gameplay", and he basically said: "we made updates to the ability system over the past few months to bring it back into the game, and we needed to test it at scale to make sure we hadnt fucked up, and we were able to scale it up far beyond what we initially thought we could, so we just pushed it to its limit to see what it could do because why not?"
And while I'm frustrated, like many others, with the slow pace of development, that response of his made sense, and doesn't immediately raise red flags for me.
One thing I've said before and will repeat here - something isn't adding up with how long this game is taking and what they've told us, and my only hope is that discrepancy doesn't equal an unfinished or mediocre game by late 2021.
I say late 2021 cause FFXIV and ESO both took ~8 years from start of dev to something that most people could actually enjoy, and now they're 2 of the top 5 MMORPG's in the west (others being Runescape, WoW, GW2).
Up to that point, they have plausibility to me, as long as gameplay and polish are added into the game at an increasing, and then stable, rate.
People were pissed with ESO and FFXIV when they were buggy and unfun, but years after they became good, their long baking time isn't really a point of criticism. If anything, they both get credit for sticking to their guns for so long and not abandoning their games, and turning them around into two successful and enjoyable games.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I used 18 months as a bit of a joke as it’s been 18 months for the last 4 years.
18 months has become the equivalent of 20 minutes wait when you go to a restaurant. They know that if they told you an hour you’d get upset and leave.
So so it’s always 18 months with these Crowdfunding games.
Of course I want an actual game to play... but honestly I don’t give any credence to these dates any more.
As long as they allow refunds they are the ones feeling the most pain from the delay so it is what it is.
Well my issue with CU and the rest is the concept of a schedule has been tossed out the window, they no longer bother because players don't care.
Money keeps rolling in and the song never ends.
For you younger folks no big deal, but for me well.....you know.
Nah I think they've got a schedule I just think they can't meet it cause the shit they're doing is tough.
Edit: here's JoeCreoterra, a commenter on the OP's article, on what they're trying to do (which, according to CSE, is necessary for the game to support the scope of gameplay they committed to):
"As someone who’s worked on these issues I
wouldn’t really say “real tough problem”… I would actually say “mind
numbing, head desk bashing, brutally hard problem” to be honest
The server interest management on that many players is extremely
hard, I applaud you guys for really pushing this as I’m guessing you’re
going not only based on distance but when crowding either going with
scaled/lower tick rates and/or dynamic load balancing of the cluster…
not to mention a ton of optimizations on actions/triggers. Extremely
hard stuff that’s never really been a solved problem.
On top of that you have the rendering and scaled client prediction
having to worry again about interest management… and also the LoD on
models/textures/shaders, etc.
From what I’ve seen in your videos/updates your tech looks pretty epic "
Again, gonna underline this: CSE thinks that this tech is necessary to support the scope of the game they committed to in the Kickstarter.
Money isn't really rolling in, and they're not promoting/hyping/upselling/asking for donations.
As far as I know, Pantheon and Crowfall aren't big on hyping, promoting or upselling either.
I keep asking people to point me to the medium-to-large scale MMO's that had a fully public schedule and hit all or most of their milestones and weren't significantly delayed, and nobody can do it.
So the options are:
1) believe that well-paid, experienced producers are idiots
2) believe that the studios are actively lying
3) believe that it's hard to know the schedule accurately when developing an MMO, and accept that.
I've gone with 3 for pretty much all of the games in development, Pantheon, Ashes, Crowfall, CU (exception here being CoE, I don't have good vibes about that one).
I used 18 months as a bit of a joke as it’s been 18 months for the last 4 years.
18 months has become the equivalent of 20 minutes wait when you go to a restaurant. They know that if they told you an hour you’d get upset and leave.
So so it’s always 18 months with these Crowdfunding games.
Of course I want an actual game to play... but honestly I don’t give any credence to these dates any more.
As long as they allow refunds they are the ones feeling the most pain from the delay so it is what it is.
Well my issue with CU and the rest is the concept of a schedule has been tossed out the window, they no longer bother because players don't care.
Money keeps rolling in and the song never ends.
For you younger folks no big deal, but for me well.....you know.
Nah I think they've got a schedule I just think they can't meet it cause the shit they're doing is tough.
Edit: here's JoeCreoterra, a commenter on the OP's article, on what they're trying to do (which, according to CSE, is necessary for the game to support the scope of gameplay they committed to):
"As someone who’s worked on these issues I
wouldn’t really say “real tough problem”… I would actually say “mind
numbing, head desk bashing, brutally hard problem” to be honest
The server interest management on that many players is extremely
hard, I applaud you guys for really pushing this as I’m guessing you’re
going not only based on distance but when crowding either going with
scaled/lower tick rates and/or dynamic load balancing of the cluster…
not to mention a ton of optimizations on actions/triggers. Extremely
hard stuff that’s never really been a solved problem.
On top of that you have the rendering and scaled client prediction
having to worry again about interest management… and also the LoD on
models/textures/shaders, etc.
From what I’ve seen in your videos/updates your tech looks pretty epic "
Again, gonna underline this: CSE thinks that this tech is necessary to support the scope of the game they committed to in the Kickstarter.
Money isn't really rolling in, and they're not promoting/hyping/upselling/asking for donations.
As far as I know, Pantheon and Crowfall aren't big on hyping, promoting or upselling either.
I keep asking people to point me to the medium-to-large scale MMO's that had a fully public schedule and hit all or most of their milestones and weren't significantly delayed, and nobody can do it.
So the options are:
1) believe that well-paid, experienced producers are idiots
2) believe that the studios are actively lying
3) believe that it's hard to know the schedule accurately when developing an MMO, and accept that.
I've gone with 3 for pretty much all of the games in development, Pantheon, Ashes, Crowfall, CU (exception here being CoE, I don't have good vibes about that one).
On Day 1 your argument makes sense, six years later not so much.
Exactly when does the "cone of uncertainty" narrow to the point a developer can say we know what we're doing and can accomplish it by a certain date with a reasonable level of confidence?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
We have developers who can’t even accurately commit to making update posts. They give us updates on the update posts. Forget about game delivery. I think the next Crowdfunding Campaign needs to show proof that the developer actually understands project management.
Too many trying to Roleplay as Developers today.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I used 18 months as a bit of a joke as it’s been 18 months for the last 4 years.
18 months has become the equivalent of 20 minutes wait when you go to a restaurant. They know that if they told you an hour you’d get upset and leave.
So so it’s always 18 months with these Crowdfunding games.
Of course I want an actual game to play... but honestly I don’t give any credence to these dates any more.
As long as they allow refunds they are the ones feeling the most pain from the delay so it is what it is.
Well my issue with CU and the rest is the concept of a schedule has been tossed out the window, they no longer bother because players don't care.
Money keeps rolling in and the song never ends.
For you younger folks no big deal, but for me well.....you know.
Nah I think they've got a schedule I just think they can't meet it cause the shit they're doing is tough.
Edit: here's JoeCreoterra, a commenter on the OP's article, on what they're trying to do (which, according to CSE, is necessary for the game to support the scope of gameplay they committed to):
"As someone who’s worked on these issues I
wouldn’t really say “real tough problem”… I would actually say “mind
numbing, head desk bashing, brutally hard problem” to be honest
The server interest management on that many players is extremely
hard, I applaud you guys for really pushing this as I’m guessing you’re
going not only based on distance but when crowding either going with
scaled/lower tick rates and/or dynamic load balancing of the cluster…
not to mention a ton of optimizations on actions/triggers. Extremely
hard stuff that’s never really been a solved problem.
On top of that you have the rendering and scaled client prediction
having to worry again about interest management… and also the LoD on
models/textures/shaders, etc.
From what I’ve seen in your videos/updates your tech looks pretty epic "
Again, gonna underline this: CSE thinks that this tech is necessary to support the scope of the game they committed to in the Kickstarter.
Money isn't really rolling in, and they're not promoting/hyping/upselling/asking for donations.
As far as I know, Pantheon and Crowfall aren't big on hyping, promoting or upselling either.
I keep asking people to point me to the medium-to-large scale MMO's that had a fully public schedule and hit all or most of their milestones and weren't significantly delayed, and nobody can do it.
So the options are:
1) believe that well-paid, experienced producers are idiots
2) believe that the studios are actively lying
3) believe that it's hard to know the schedule accurately when developing an MMO, and accept that.
I've gone with 3 for pretty much all of the games in development, Pantheon, Ashes, Crowfall, CU (exception here being CoE, I don't have good vibes about that one).
On Day 1 your argument makes sense, six years later not so much.
Exactly when does the "cone of uncertainty" narrow to the point a developer can say we know what we're doing and can accomplish it by a certain date with a reasonable level of confidence?
A week before launch?
?? What about it doesn't make sense to you now?
- Re: your question, no idea, doesn't matter as long as they can get the game out in under 9 years total.
They're 5.25 years into development, that's 3.75 years to go before they're past FFXIV and ESO as good games.
3.75 more years is end of 2022.
If they aren't launched by then, it's a problem, if they do, no big fucken deal
We have developers who can’t even accurately commit to making update posts. They give us updates on the update posts. Forget about game delivery. I think the next Crowdfunding Campaign needs to show proof that the developer actually understands project management.
Too many trying to Roleplay as Developers today.
Eh, I'll say it again, cause the more I ask the question and the more it goes unanswered, the louder that silence is (I've asked it about 10 times in similar conversations and have had 0/10 responses):
can you (or anyone) name 3 medium-to-large scope MMORPGs with major innovations with fully public schedules that met all their deadlines and launched on time?
Fully public means public from the beginning, and the whole schedule.
Edit: I'm not saying I'm for sure right and none exist, I'm willing to be wrong; but when I've asked people who shit on devs for being late, and 0/10 of them can provide a lick of proof that this is due to bad project management by individual studios, it's hard to take these arguments seriously.
We have developers who can’t even accurately commit to making update posts. They give us updates on the update posts. Forget about game delivery. I think the next Crowdfunding Campaign needs to show proof that the developer actually understands project management.
Too many trying to Roleplay as Developers today.
Eh, I'll say it again, cause the more I ask the question and the more it goes unanswered, the louder that silence is (I've asked it about 10 times in similar conversations and have had 0/10 responses):
can you (or anyone) name 3 medium-to-large scope MMORPGs with major innovations with fully public schedules that met all their deadlines and launched on time?
Fully public means public from the beginning, and the whole schedule.
Edit: I'm not saying I'm for sure right and none exist, I'm willing to be wrong; but when I've asked people who shit on devs for being late, and 0/10 of them can provide a lick of proof that this is due to bad project management by individual studios, it's hard to take these arguments seriously.
Lol "they're all marketing based on pie-in-the-sky bullshit promises they try to play off on consumers using an appeal to their own authority, so it's okay!"
Yeah. That's a great way to look at it.
Why don't you "pledge" me $5,000 and I'll build you a 5 bedroom mansion on some prime real estate out in the Bahamas! You can trust me; I've done carpentry work before. I even have a schedule! It'll be completed in 13 days.
We have developers who can’t even accurately commit to making update posts. They give us updates on the update posts. Forget about game delivery. I think the next Crowdfunding Campaign needs to show proof that the developer actually understands project management.
Too many trying to Roleplay as Developers today.
Eh, I'll say it again, cause the more I ask the question and the more it goes unanswered, the louder that silence is (I've asked it about 10 times in similar conversations and have had 0/10 responses):
can you (or anyone) name 3 medium-to-large scope MMORPGs with major innovations with fully public schedules that met all their deadlines and launched on time?
Fully public means public from the beginning, and the whole schedule.
Edit: I'm not saying I'm for sure right and none exist, I'm willing to be wrong; but when I've asked people who shit on devs for being late, and 0/10 of them can provide a lick of proof that this is due to bad project management by individual studios, it's hard to take these arguments seriously.
Lol "they're all marketing based on pie-in-the-sky bullshit promises they try to play off on consumers using an appeal to their own authority, so it's okay!"
Yeah. That's a great way to look at it.
Why don't you "pledge" me $5,000 and I'll build you a 5 bedroom mansion on some prime real estate out in the Bahamas! You can trust me; I've done carpentry work before. I even have a schedule! It'll be completed in 13 days.
We have developers who can’t even accurately commit to making update posts. They give us updates on the update posts. Forget about game delivery. I think the next Crowdfunding Campaign needs to show proof that the developer actually understands project management.
Too many trying to Roleplay as Developers today.
Eh, I'll say it again, cause the more I ask the question and the more it goes unanswered, the louder that silence is (I've asked it about 10 times in similar conversations and have had 0/10 responses):
can you (or anyone) name 3 medium-to-large scope MMORPGs with major innovations with fully public schedules that met all their deadlines and launched on time?
Fully public means public from the beginning, and the whole schedule.
Edit: I'm not saying I'm for sure right and none exist, I'm willing to be wrong; but when I've asked people who shit on devs for being late, and 0/10 of them can provide a lick of proof that this is due to bad project management by individual studios, it's hard to take these arguments seriously.
Lol "they're all marketing based on pie-in-the-sky bullshit promises they try to play off on consumers using an appeal to their own authority, so it's okay!"
Yeah. That's a great way to look at it.
Why don't you "pledge" me $5,000 and I'll build you a 5 bedroom mansion on some prime real estate out in the Bahamas! You can trust me; I've done carpentry work before. I even have a schedule! It'll be completed in 13 days.
Huh?
Nothing about them all failing to meet their deadlines makes it okay to rake in cash based on an appeal to their own authority reference deadlines they set themselves. To believe so is silly.
They set the deadlines, and sold these projects on the idea they have the skills and personnel to pull it off. They're failing miserably, to the point there's no logical way they could've ever believed those schedules would hold in the first place. Erego, they lied to rake in cash.
Let's look at what the Kickstarter promised for launch that's tech- or design-demanding (Depths wasn't promised for launch):
- Server-side physics
- Large scale battles (500+ players with 30+ FPS on a decent rig, today's equivalent would be a 1060/970 GTX)
- Material-based crafting system (not recipe where you only use 1 type of material for each part, but you can use different woods, metals, etc. to make the same item)
- Build your own buildings
- Buildings are destroyed and become real physics objects
- Projectiles (arrows, heal spells, damage spells) are real physics objects
- Build your own abilities
- Action Interaction Reaction spell system where spells interact with each other
- Moving islands that connect together
The bolded ones are already in the game and working.
The italicized one looks like it'll be put in over the next 3-4 months (but probably sooner).
The AIR system and the connecting islands are the two technically demanding systems that still haven't gone in yet and I haven't seen any updates on them in a while.
I agree they're not good at estimating how long it takes them to do these very technologically demanding tasks. But who's doing similarly technologically demanding things and doing a wildly better job of meeting their fully public deadlines? Genuinely very curious about this.
It's for sure gonna be another 2-3 years before it launches, I dunno what they're talking about with the "hoping for a 2019 launch" stuff, that sounds improbable.
But they very much are building the game they promised.
It doesn't matter who else is doing it, because they set the deadlines for themselves. They took money based on that deadline, convincing folks it was realistic. It isn't, and it never was.
EDIT- oh sorry, they used softer words than "deadline," because they knew they'd need to wiggle out of it once they actually reached those chronological milestones. This shit isn't accidental, no matter how much they want to to believe it is. If it were truly accidental, they'd be the worst estimates I've personally ever seen for a project of any kind. Period.
We have developers who can’t even accurately commit to making update posts. They give us updates on the update posts. Forget about game delivery. I think the next Crowdfunding Campaign needs to show proof that the developer actually understands project management.
Too many trying to Roleplay as Developers today.
Eh, I'll say it again, cause the more I ask the question and the more it goes unanswered, the louder that silence is (I've asked it about 10 times in similar conversations and have had 0/10 responses):
can you (or anyone) name 3 medium-to-large scope MMORPGs with major innovations with fully public schedules that met all their deadlines and launched on time?
Fully public means public from the beginning, and the whole schedule.
Edit: I'm not saying I'm for sure right and none exist, I'm willing to be wrong; but when I've asked people who shit on devs for being late, and 0/10 of them can provide a lick of proof that this is due to bad project management by individual studios, it's hard to take these arguments seriously.
Lol "they're all marketing based on pie-in-the-sky bullshit promises they try to play off on consumers using an appeal to their own authority, so it's okay!"
Yeah. That's a great way to look at it.
Why don't you "pledge" me $5,000 and I'll build you a 5 bedroom mansion on some prime real estate out in the Bahamas! You can trust me; I've done carpentry work before. I even have a schedule! It'll be completed in 13 days.
Huh?
Nothing about them all failing to meet their deadlines makes it okay to rake in cash based on an appeal to their own authority reference deadlines they set themselves. To believe so is silly.
They set the deadlines, and sold these projects on the idea they have the skills and personnel to pull it off. They're failing miserably, to the point there's no logical way they could've ever believed those schedules would hold in the first place. Erego, they lied to rake in cash.
So, if I understand you correctly, this is a problem with games in general, who use people's excitement and hope for games to cash in, by lying to them based on that hope?
I agree.
Most studios are doing this, CSE did this, but that doesn't make it morally right. It's still a crap thing to do.
And I absolutely think that CSE was "optimistic" to the point of being indistinguishable from a lie, with their estimated timelines.
The key distinction here is that most (not all) other studios lie about the scope, performance, and/or features of their games, as well as timelines, whereas CSE's reality-fudging is only with the timelines (so far).
But like Slapshott said, they've still got refunds, so anyone who wants to can get their entire donation back... and yet most people aren't doing that.
And, to be honest, if the alternative is a failed Kickstarter with a conservative/honest 8 year development time, AND us never getting a decent RvR MMORPG again, I'll stomach being quasi-lied to. Better than not having a great RvR game to enjoy, ever.
Highlighting that last line just in case - anyone who gets all righteous about devs lying about timelines, if you don't like it, ask for a refund, if you didn't back the game, then what on earth are you here complaining for lol?
We have developers who can’t even accurately commit to making update posts. They give us updates on the update posts. Forget about game delivery. I think the next Crowdfunding Campaign needs to show proof that the developer actually understands project management.
Too many trying to Roleplay as Developers today.
Eh, I'll say it again, cause the more I ask the question and the more it goes unanswered, the louder that silence is (I've asked it about 10 times in similar conversations and have had 0/10 responses):
can you (or anyone) name 3 medium-to-large scope MMORPGs with major innovations with fully public schedules that met all their deadlines and launched on time?
Fully public means public from the beginning, and the whole schedule.
Edit: I'm not saying I'm for sure right and none exist, I'm willing to be wrong; but when I've asked people who shit on devs for being late, and 0/10 of them can provide a lick of proof that this is due to bad project management by individual studios, it's hard to take these arguments seriously.
Lol "they're all marketing based on pie-in-the-sky bullshit promises they try to play off on consumers using an appeal to their own authority, so it's okay!"
Yeah. That's a great way to look at it.
Why don't you "pledge" me $5,000 and I'll build you a 5 bedroom mansion on some prime real estate out in the Bahamas! You can trust me; I've done carpentry work before. I even have a schedule! It'll be completed in 13 days.
Huh?
Nothing about them all failing to meet their deadlines makes it okay to rake in cash based on an appeal to their own authority reference deadlines they set themselves. To believe so is silly.
They set the deadlines, and sold these projects on the idea they have the skills and personnel to pull it off. They're failing miserably, to the point there's no logical way they could've ever believed those schedules would hold in the first place. Erego, they lied to rake in cash.
So, if I understand you correctly, this is a problem with games in general, who use people's excitement and hope for games to cash in, by lying to them based on that hope?
I agree.
And I absolutely think that CSE was "optimistic" to the point of being indistinguishable from a lie with their estimated timelines.
But like Slapshott said, they've still got refunds, so anyone who feels like they were lied to can get their entire donation back... and yet most people aren't doing that.
And, to be honest, if the alternative is a failed Kickstarter with an 8 year timeframe and never having a decent RvR MMORPG again, I'll stomach being quasi-lied to rather than not have a great RvR game to enjoy, ever.
There it is again: ends justify the means. That's becoming a common theme.
Don't think I'm necessarily trying to disparage you personally about this, I just happened to see your overly optimistic post and jumped into the thread. I'm just sick of these crowdfunded MMORPG companies being either 1) retardedly incompetent at project planning, or 2) deceitful.
EDIT- also, I'm willing to give credit where it's due reference refunds for CU. But this entire landscape has become complete and utter bullshit artistry preying on the desperation of a core group of MMORPG fans who feel the industry has left them behind.
I want to see a developer say something to the effect of, I think we can make this game in two years, which means that in the real world, it will probably take closer to six. Therefore, the projected release date is in six years.
I want to see a developer say something to the effect of, I think we can make this game in two years, which means that in the real world, it will probably take closer to six. Therefore, the projected release date is in six years.
They can't: reality would diminish their chances to get funded.
We have developers who can’t even accurately commit to making update posts. They give us updates on the update posts. Forget about game delivery. I think the next Crowdfunding Campaign needs to show proof that the developer actually understands project management.
Too many trying to Roleplay as Developers today.
Eh, I'll say it again, cause the more I ask the question and the more it goes unanswered, the louder that silence is (I've asked it about 10 times in similar conversations and have had 0/10 responses):
can you (or anyone) name 3 medium-to-large scope MMORPGs with major innovations with fully public schedules that met all their deadlines and launched on time?
Fully public means public from the beginning, and the whole schedule.
Edit: I'm not saying I'm for sure right and none exist, I'm willing to be wrong; but when I've asked people who shit on devs for being late, and 0/10 of them can provide a lick of proof that this is due to bad project management by individual studios, it's hard to take these arguments seriously.
Lol "they're all marketing based on pie-in-the-sky bullshit promises they try to play off on consumers using an appeal to their own authority, so it's okay!"
Yeah. That's a great way to look at it.
Why don't you "pledge" me $5,000 and I'll build you a 5 bedroom mansion on some prime real estate out in the Bahamas! You can trust me; I've done carpentry work before. I even have a schedule! It'll be completed in 13 days.
Huh?
Nothing about them all failing to meet their deadlines makes it okay to rake in cash based on an appeal to their own authority reference deadlines they set themselves. To believe so is silly.
They set the deadlines, and sold these projects on the idea they have the skills and personnel to pull it off. They're failing miserably, to the point there's no logical way they could've ever believed those schedules would hold in the first place. Erego, they lied to rake in cash.
So, if I understand you correctly, this is a problem with games in general, who use people's excitement and hope for games to cash in, by lying to them based on that hope?
I agree.
And I absolutely think that CSE was "optimistic" to the point of being indistinguishable from a lie with their estimated timelines.
But like Slapshott said, they've still got refunds, so anyone who feels like they were lied to can get their entire donation back... and yet most people aren't doing that.
And, to be honest, if the alternative is a failed Kickstarter with an 8 year timeframe and never having a decent RvR MMORPG again, I'll stomach being quasi-lied to rather than not have a great RvR game to enjoy, ever.
There it is again: ends justify the means. That's becoming a common theme.
Don't think I'm necessarily trying to disparage you personally about this, I just happened to see your overly optimistic post and jumped into the thread. I'm just sick of these crowdfunded MMORPG companies being either 1) retardedly incompetent at project planning, or 2) deceitful.
EDIT- also, I'm willing to give credit where it's due reference refunds for CU. But this entire landscape has become complete and utter bullshit artistry preying on the desperation of a core group of MMORPG fans who feel the industry has left them behind.
Thanks for clarifying, didn't think you were trying to disparage me personally.
I was more complaining that nobody wants to talk about the possibility that making a technologically demanding MMORPG, with a bunch of new systems people haven't combined before, is maybe just extra fucking hard to know timelines for.
And to be clear - I extend my willingness to accept missed deadlines to any other MMORPG that's doing innovative stuff that hasn't been done before: Crowfall, Ashes of Creation, Star Citizen, as long as they can show some tangible progress (and all of them do!). Is Pantheon doing never-done-before, technologically-hard-to-do stuff? If they are, I'd give them deadline-wiggle-room too.
EDIT- also, I'm willing to give credit where it's due reference refunds for CU. But this entire landscape has become complete and utter bullshit artistry preying on the desperation of a core group of MMORPG fans who feel the industry has left them behind. [my emphasis]
It's exactly this lack of supply of good games that gets me frustrated when people shit on the devs who are genuinely making games left-behind fans can enjoy (although slower than expected).
Like, f*** Portalarium's shady practices re: Shroud of the Avatar. They seem to shit on the good faith of so many of their devoted fans and backers, and didn't make the game they promised in their Kickstarter.
Who knows what the heck Chronicles of Elyria is up to, but it doesn't seem like they're getting close to making their game. Maybe they are?
Then there's CU and Crowfall and Pantheon and Star Citizen and Ashes of Creation, who all seem to be actually making the games they promised to make.
Until proven otherwise, the choices I see are:
A - games I don't want to play and me without an MMORPG to enjoy,
B - games I do want to play but made slower than I like/was promised.
I am 100% picking B.
Edit: I'm not interested in playing Crowfall, Ashes, Pantheon. And I backed Star Citizen but probably won't play it, but I think it's fucking stupendous that serious studios are making serious games for under-supplied niches and that we'll have them all within the next 3-4 years. I bet it'll be worth the wait for them.
Comments
Edit: that said, theres no PvE leveling, no quests or raids or dungeons or NPC factions and they use procedural generation for the terrain.
Going from all-game-systems complete to ready-to-launch may be quicker than expected.
Realize your 2.5 year "optimistic" estimate is 6 months longer than was promised in the Kickstarter.
Go read MJs many replies over on the MassivelyOP thread linked in the OP. It's clear he's become obsessed with creating a large scale battlefield the likes never seen before in MMO space.
Its also clear he's lost his way and forgotten he promised to deliver a functioning game in a reasonable time.
He really won't release it before he's satisfied his desire, even if it takes another 3 to 5 years. (Because he's doing it all for the backers, don't ya know)
It's not without good reason he no longer shows his face here, even on usually passive Massively some of the responses he received were withering, yet he let the band play on about how "great" an achievement this is.
I suppose so, if the goal is to market a MMO battle engine, which I'm starting to think is the long game here.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Your post is actually one of the better criticisms I've seen of CSE and the game's development - most of them are a variation on "I want it now!".
Thing is, your take on the massive MMO engine being the long game isn't something we can confirm or deny at this point. But it is a reasonable speculation to make.
Andrew responded to this concern on stream a few weeks back, basically saying: the value of the engine for making an MMORPG gets proved by shipping this game. So if they want credibility (aka promotion) of their engine, then they need to make this game sell super well and impress the pants off of other devs at and after release.
I dont know how true an insight that is into these things, cause I'm not a mostly-unbiased game dev who might be interested in using their engine.
MJ responded to my confusion in the article comments about "why show off massive bot battles, game needs more gameplay", and he basically said: "we made updates to the ability system over the past few months to bring it back into the game, and we needed to test it at scale to make sure we hadnt fucked up, and we were able to scale it up far beyond what we initially thought we could, so we just pushed it to its limit to see what it could do because why not?"
And while I'm frustrated, like many others, with the slow pace of development, that response of his made sense, and doesn't immediately raise red flags for me.
One thing I've said before and will repeat here - something isn't adding up with how long this game is taking and what they've told us, and my only hope is that discrepancy doesn't equal an unfinished or mediocre game by late 2021.
I say late 2021 cause FFXIV and ESO both took ~8 years from start of dev to something that most people could actually enjoy, and now they're 2 of the top 5 MMORPG's in the west (others being Runescape, WoW, GW2).
Up to that point, they have plausibility to me, as long as gameplay and polish are added into the game at an increasing, and then stable, rate.
People were pissed with ESO and FFXIV when they were buggy and unfun, but years after they became good, their long baking time isn't really a point of criticism. If anything, they both get credit for sticking to their guns for so long and not abandoning their games, and turning them around into two successful and enjoyable games.
18 months has become the equivalent of 20 minutes wait when you go to a restaurant. They know that if they told you an hour you’d get upset and leave.
So so it’s always 18 months with these Crowdfunding games.
Of course I want an actual game to play... but honestly I don’t give any credence to these dates any more.
As long as they allow refunds they are the ones feeling the most pain from the delay so it is what it is.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Money keeps rolling in and the song never ends.
For you younger folks no big deal, but for me well.....you know.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The server interest management on that many players is extremely hard, I applaud you guys for really pushing this as I’m guessing you’re going not only based on distance but when crowding either going with scaled/lower tick rates and/or dynamic load balancing of the cluster… not to mention a ton of optimizations on actions/triggers. Extremely hard stuff that’s never really been a solved problem.
On top of that you have the rendering and scaled client prediction having to worry again about interest management… and also the LoD on models/textures/shaders, etc.
From what I’ve seen in your videos/updates your tech looks pretty epic
"
Again, gonna underline this: CSE thinks that this tech is necessary to support the scope of the game they committed to in the Kickstarter.
Exactly when does the "cone of uncertainty" narrow to the point a developer can say we know what we're doing and can accomplish it by a certain date with a reasonable level of confidence?
A week before launch?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Too many trying to Roleplay as Developers today.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Yeah. That's a great way to look at it.
Why don't you "pledge" me $5,000 and I'll build you a 5 bedroom mansion on some prime real estate out in the Bahamas! You can trust me; I've done carpentry work before. I even have a schedule! It'll be completed in 13 days.
They set the deadlines, and sold these projects on the idea they have the skills and personnel to pull it off. They're failing miserably, to the point there's no logical way they could've ever believed those schedules would hold in the first place. Erego, they lied to rake in cash.
EDIT- oh sorry, they used softer words than "deadline," because they knew they'd need to wiggle out of it once they actually reached those chronological milestones. This shit isn't accidental, no matter how much they want to to believe it is. If it were truly accidental, they'd be the worst estimates I've personally ever seen for a project of any kind. Period.
Don't think I'm necessarily trying to disparage you personally about this, I just happened to see your overly optimistic post and jumped into the thread. I'm just sick of these crowdfunded MMORPG companies being either 1) retardedly incompetent at project planning, or 2) deceitful.
EDIT- also, I'm willing to give credit where it's due reference refunds for CU. But this entire landscape has become complete and utter bullshit artistry preying on the desperation of a core group of MMORPG fans who feel the industry has left them behind.