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A solution to Playing Killing (PK'ing)

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  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,114
    The problem is the niche of having MMORPG, pvp, open world and loot. 

    Pvpers mostly don't like mmorpg.
    Mmorpg players mostly don't like pvp.
    Mmorpg pvp players mostly don't like open world pvp.
    Most people don't like pvp loot.

    When you start combining any of these you start to drastically reduce the number of people who are interested. 

    There's more... I dig full loot open world pvp games, but can't handle the style of game play in aria/UO. I need first or third person 3d control schemes. 

    The bottom line is if they are aware of the depth of their niche and are fine with it, then so be it. If they want more people interested then they need to take another look.
    Phry
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    bcbully said:

    There are men, and there are... chickens. 
    Idk how many times I said “you won’t die irl” 
    I'll never understand how 6 geared vets ganking a lone noob in the wilds is 'hardcore', 'old school' or 'elite'.  That is why I'm confused when I read your post because it seems to me the 6 geared vets are 'chickens' and the lone noob braving the wilds is 'men' - and I don't think you meant it that way.
    KyleranUngoodPhry
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Aelious said:
    bcbully said:
    Ungood said:
    I think the players that do not want to deal with the game, as the the game is, ought to leave.

    Problem solved.
    The only problem there is if the devs misjudged the number of folks who would play their niche game.  Then not enough money to survive, and the game folds.  Ooops....
    It’s damn near 2019 dude pve is the smallest niche across all genres. Thus your problem bud.
    It's not. Sure, there are very successful PvP online titles and I play them all the time. PvP MMORPGs? OWPvP is still less desirable out the gate and this only magnifies as a title ages.

    Really?

    If by Player vs. Player you mean every game where players combat other players then by your definition online Scrabble would be a PvP game.  However, if you add the element that really gets people upset (geared vets fighting helpless noobs) you'll find next to no successful titles exist.

    Battlefield is popular exactly because the players all are basically equal - a noob with a gun can kill a veteran player (hell, I've knifed players 10x better than myself) - because all the players in the popular PvP games start out as basically equal.  

    However, in games with serious grinding/progression where a geared vet can smoke a noob - well, those don't do so well.  And that is the actual issue.

    So no, you cannot name several online PvP games that feature significant progression that are doing well.  Absolutely not.
    KyleranAelious
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member UncommonPosts: 241
    The idea of "we all have to be equal to have a successful PvP environment" is ridiculous.  Some of the best MMOs that have PvP say otherwise (DAoC, SWG, Eve). 

    A person who has spent time, effort and money (in game only...pffft to cash shops) should have an advantage over a person who put 30 minutes and no effort into their character.  In my opinion, games where everyone has the same set armor and weapons at the end, so nobody has a gear advantage, has ruined MMOs.

    That said, all of the successful MMOs that had successful PvP had some kind of safeguard in place, even if minimal.
  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 513
    If the game allows players to kill other players... there is no need for a solution.  That IS what the game is about.  Seems to me you want a PVE only game, of which this game is not.

    There are plenty of PVE only games out there... go pick one of them.  Then you don't ever have to deal with being killed by a player ever again.
    KyleranWargfootYV
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,839
    In general all games should have law enforcement as a career path or class.  In life enforcement is multilayered with all types of agencies working together or not.  

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    I am going to point out that the irony that all the games that were listed above me, are no less than 15 years old... all of them.

    Which means there is not one single modern successful grind base PvP MMO, where at the same time Battle Arena game like Fortnight has 80 million players. Yes.. that is 80 MILLION players.

    Apparent that "We are all equal" works like a fucking charm.


    KyleranWargfootYV
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,873
    edited January 27
    Ungood said:
    I am going to point out that the irony that all the games that were listed above me, are no less than 15 years old... all of them.

    Which means there is not one single modern successful grind base PvP MMO, where at the same time Battle Arena game like Fortnight has 80 million players. Yes.. that is 80 MILLION players.

    Apparent that "We are all equal" works like a fucking charm.


      But thats a different genre RPG and MMOs are about class builds / character build gear and perk loadouts / time invested/ stat distribution.. etc ..

        Fortnite/ Battlearena / FPS are about nothing but which clown shoes you are wearing ..

      Its a different genre and needs to seperated , the OP is about LoA an MMORPG not a BA FPS ...
    KyleranPhry
  • sacredcow4sacredcow4 Member UncommonPosts: 230
    In the history of mmos an anti-pk guild/group has never once been effective. You are proposing a reactionary solution where a pro-active solution is necessary. 

    Unless you can magically manifest an anti-pk group in front of a player who is about to be pk'd it is ineffective. It accomplishes nothing. It has NEVER accomplished the intended goal. You can create the exact same gameplay, only better, by introducing factions or group based pvp.

    People have been proposing community driven solutions for decades... and you think THIS time will be the time it works? You are either willfully ignorant, or you are totally unfamiliar with the history of Ultima Online.
    KyleranWargfootYV
     I've been here a while...
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    I am going to point out that the irony that all the games that were listed above me, are no less than 15 years old... all of them.

    Which means there is not one single modern successful grind base PvP MMO, where at the same time Battle Arena game like Fortnight has 80 million players. Yes.. that is 80 MILLION players.

    Apparent that "We are all equal" works like a fucking charm.


      But thats a different genre RPG and MMOs are about class builds / character build gear and perk loadouts / time invested/ stat distribution.. etc ..

        Fortnite/ Battlearena / FPS are about nothing but which clown shoes you are wearing ..

      Its a different genre and needs to seperated , the OP is about LoA an MMORPG not a BA FPS ...
    While I did use Fortnight, which is more about luck and skill than a min-maxing a build and grind.

    I am going to respectfully disagree with your assessment of PvP arena games, and encourage you to give the game in my sig a try.

  • LackingMMOLackingMMO Member RarePosts: 438
    The problem is the niche of having MMORPG, pvp, open world and loot. 

    Pvpers mostly don't like mmorpg.
    Mmorpg players mostly don't like pvp.
    Mmorpg pvp players mostly don't like open world pvp.
    Most people don't like pvp loot.

    When you start combining any of these you start to drastically reduce the number of people who are interested. 

    There's more... I dig full loot open world pvp games, but can't handle the style of game play in aria/UO. I need first or third person 3d control schemes. 

    The bottom line is if they are aware of the depth of their niche and are fine with it, then so be it. If they want more people interested then they need to take another look.
    Hate to say that is pretty untrue. To say its probably not the most popular is true but the way to list it is very deceptive. Pvp players want a solid open world pvp game, sandbox, town building, politics and all. Darkfall did well at launch. The problem for pvp players in the mmo setting is we haven't had one of those at all. The ones we have gotten have been riddled with bugs and not supported at all. Which is where DF fell and when people realized that the population plummets.

    I will agree im not a fan of isometric views, I prefer 1st/3rd.

    I like the way Pantheon is approaching things, they are aware of there audience and are targeting who they know will enjoy the game. We need a solid dev team to focus on a specific goal and stick to it, continue to support it and it can do well. It wont be the next wow but it could be the next shadowbane.
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member RarePosts: 1,637
    Usually the stuff you mentioned is what your guild(if nice) does without the payola.

    If any legit mercenary system was put in place the bad guys would create a greater counter cause the dark side is the strongest manifestation of the force.
    Kyleran
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    BruceYee said:
    Usually the stuff you mentioned is what your guild(if nice) does without the payola.

    If any legit mercenary system was put in place the bad guys would create a greater counter cause the dark side is the strongest manifestation of the force.
    I'd say weaker, since restraint, using your abilities to help others, and belief in ones own abilities without having to prove it takes more strength. It's easy being quick to act on base emotions and sense of impressing others in the absence of inner contentment.

    Alas, there are more of one than the other so in the end I agree mere numbers would choose the victor. A guild should be the main source of protection for those wanting to gather and craft.
  • barasawabarasawa Member UncommonPosts: 591
    xcyper33 said:
    The good people of Aria should form protection militia groups. ...
    They could, but it never works for long, if at all.  
    The prices can get outrageous, and far more than noobs can afford. 
    The availability of guardians is never even close to enough to cover the harvesters. 
    Even if you do find enough people to start it, most of them will leave before long because playing babysitter/bodyguard is BORING!  

    This has been tried in other games before, and it always fails, usually before a month that I know of. You're welcome to try, and it would be great if you succeed, but history isn't on your side.

    Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...

  • LobotomistLobotomist Member RarePosts: 5,818
    I thought they made it extremely punishing to PK in one of latest releases. And all PK kids whined ?
    I guess it didnt stop nobody from PKing ?


    Full loot pvp is mistake.
    As someone greatly put it : Its bullying simulator
    Arteriuscraftseeker



  • BananableBananable Member UncommonPosts: 194
    "A solution to Playing Killing (PK'ing)"

    Theres only one soultion - devs should play by themselves with pvp players. That would be hillarious to watch, it would be fun to see em get ganked, but if they use their devs powers to kill every lil ganker - those kids gonna be first who moan "unfair, cheating".


    But seriously pvp sux. No matter how you look at it. Some "smart" kids wanna feel themself better by destoying pve players game experience. You can see it every where "noob hunter, killer" etc. Thats just bullying literally. Ive never seen anyone who want to fight/compete with pro, elitist, hardcore player.
    Its so stupid, like if millioner would come to hobo to show off his money...why dont he go to billioner..? Thats rhetorical question. 

    Meanwhile devs making money by making pvp and pve player to blame each other.. and even in 99% pve game they force  pve players to do pvp ( lvling faster, better drops, exclusive stuff ect or just simply event)...without victims pvp players just leave - ie game dies.

    At this moment i think its just time waste...full loot, seriously? And after i lost, i have to make new gear? Then again...
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,767
    Realm versus Realm, there are zones where you PvP but in most areas of the game you cannot. It was devised partly to solve the very issues so many have mentioned.

    But for this game the OP's way may be the best solution, it has worked elsewhere if not completely or continuously, what venture by people ever does.

     25 Agrees

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  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    LackingMMO said:
    The problem for pvp players in the mmo setting is we haven't had one of those at all. The ones we have gotten have been riddled with bugs and not supported at all. Which is where DF fell and when people realized that the population plummets.
    I think trying to blame bugs for the failing of every single modern PvP MMO is just being flat out dishonest on why they really failed.

    Reality is, the population plummets in these PvP games because no one is going to grind in a game where someone else can take away all your work.
    KyleranWargfoot
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,011
    edited January 28
    It does not matter this game will be dead in about 6 months when people get tired of the PKers looting their corpse.   This was a big problem in UO and why UO added trammel then the population of the game doubled inside of a few months.  Its also why games like SWG with a much better PVP system had a larger player base.  

    I would rather play a game like CU where players cannot take your stuff after you are killed in combat.  
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,063
    edited January 28
    Ungood said:
    LackingMMO said:
    The problem for pvp players in the mmo setting is we haven't had one of those at all. The ones we have gotten have been riddled with bugs and not supported at all. Which is where DF fell and when people realized that the population plummets.
    I think trying to blame bugs for the failing of every single modern PvP MMO is just being flat out dishonest on why they really failed.

    Reality is, the population plummets in these PvP games because no one is going to grind in a game where someone else can take away all your work.
    There is some validity to this.  I obviously disagree with the “no one” comment but with the Darkfall example it was absolutely true that many people quit after losing stuff.  My guild was large, organized and part of an alliance.  We flourished early by claiming and building a city.   That city gave us a focus.  Then one day when most were either asleep or at work the city was attacked and taken by another group.

    To me, it was just part of the game and while losing it off hours sucked... it would have eventually happened anyway.  But almost instantly we lost 3/4 of our guild.   That’s not an exaggeration.  Now some of those that stayed still play to this day, but obviously they are the
    minority.   I myself stuck around for 6 months to a year as we won and lost other holdings.  Eventually it just got a bit boring for me but still some really fond memories.

    To me... the thrill of real risk adds a ton to gameplay.  I mean, it’s just pixels... so it’s a safe way to get that rush.   If I lose my town or my sword... ok it sucks a bit... but it just kicks up everything a few notches.

    So no... full loot PvP is not for everyone.  It’s not even for most people.  But for me, even though I am going to lose far more than I win... it’s a much more thrilling experience.

    I am hoping the Crowfall with their Campaigns can kind of bring in a larger group.   It resets the world for each campaign so losing that Keep shouldn’t really hurt as much.  Then again, maybe owning it won’t feel like an accomplishment.  We will see.
    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
    Phry

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  • kelthalkelthal Member UncommonPosts: 18
    In the history of mmos an anti-pk guild/group has never once been effective. You are proposing a reactionary solution where a pro-active solution is necessary. 

    Unless you can magically manifest an anti-pk group in front of a player who is about to be pk'd it is ineffective. It accomplishes nothing. It has NEVER accomplished the intended goal. You can create the exact same gameplay, only better, by introducing factions or group based pvp.

    People have been proposing community driven solutions for decades... and you think THIS time will be the time it works? You are either willfully ignorant, or you are totally unfamiliar with the history of Ultima Online.
    Actually if youve ever played the game, there are no less than 2 active anti-pk guilds and they do a good job and are very effective.  There are maybe 3-4 "red" guilds and they are much smaller than the anti-pk guilds.  The people whining about getting PK'd should join one of those guilds as they literally send 15+ to protect their miners.  I am in a red guild and I have seen it myself.  People saying it won't work have probably never logged into the game. They would just rather whine on the forums.  Look into CEV, PURE, GoT....all them are effective anti-pk guilds.
  • mmoloummolou Member UncommonPosts: 205
    There is no solution to PKing in a PvP MMO.
    When some player's have the option to kill other player's, they will, for no other reason than they can.
    In some circumstance's you may be able to avoid it, and that is the best you can hope for.

    PvP MMO's need wolves and sheep, and it suck's to be the sheep.

    Bug's are not really the reason the population eventually dwindles, first the sheep get fed up of being sheep, and they move on to greener pasture's.
    Then some of the PvPer's that think they are/were the wolves, find out they are now the sheep, maybe they are just not as good as other player's, maybe they just have worse gear, maybe their class just is not as good, but they keep getting killed, and they get pissed off, and eventually, leave the game to find easier prey in the next PvP MMO, rinse and repeat.
    It is a funny world we live in.
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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,982
    Ungood said:
    LackingMMO said:
    The problem for pvp players in the mmo setting is we haven't had one of those at all. The ones we have gotten have been riddled with bugs and not supported at all. Which is where DF fell and when people realized that the population plummets.
    I think trying to blame bugs for the failing of every single modern PvP MMO is just being flat out dishonest on why they really failed.

    Reality is, the population plummets in these PvP games because no one is going to grind in a game where someone else can take away all your work.
    Yet people grind all the time in survival games, which are often full of bugs, yet they draw in tens of thousands. (See Atlas)

    I wonder what the difference is for MMORPGs?

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  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,271
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    LackingMMO said:
    The problem for pvp players in the mmo setting is we haven't had one of those at all. The ones we have gotten have been riddled with bugs and not supported at all. Which is where DF fell and when people realized that the population plummets.
    I think trying to blame bugs for the failing of every single modern PvP MMO is just being flat out dishonest on why they really failed.

    Reality is, the population plummets in these PvP games because no one is going to grind in a game where someone else can take away all your work.
    Yet people grind all the time in survival games, which are often full of bugs, yet they draw in tens of thousands. (See Atlas)

    I wonder what the difference is for MMORPGs?
    I think the difference is you are grinding to build and grinding to take over things in Survival games usually.

    In an MMORPG you are grinding to power up your character to be better in PvP or PvE, you don't see it right away like you do in survival games. You might get better gear but you aren't grinding out walls to a house or building a giant ship right from the start. 

    Owning and building on land is a very big carrot for a lot of players in survival and PvP types of games, and for some reason (probably due to the persistent nature) MMORPG's usually only have housing, nothing more and if they do have more it is usually so locked in, that other players cannot easily take it or destroy it. Pretty much the opposite of survival games. 

    The playerbases are incredibly similar, but survival games just have way less in the way of doing what you want to do, and even though they are grindy they take a hell of a lot less time to see progress.
    KyleranPhry
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    LackingMMO said:
    The problem for pvp players in the mmo setting is we haven't had one of those at all. The ones we have gotten have been riddled with bugs and not supported at all. Which is where DF fell and when people realized that the population plummets.
    I think trying to blame bugs for the failing of every single modern PvP MMO is just being flat out dishonest on why they really failed.

    Reality is, the population plummets in these PvP games because no one is going to grind in a game where someone else can take away all your work.
    Yet people grind all the time in survival games, which are often full of bugs, yet they draw in tens of thousands. (See Atlas)

    I wonder what the difference is for MMORPGs?
    Nature of the game.

    In most Survival games, everyone starts out even, everyone struggles to survive, fighting and killing each other is often a high risk endeavor for both the attacker and the defender. This makes for an engaging game, when a developer makes it so that when players fight they all risk losing everything. Also some survival games are Perma-Death, meaning you only get to lose once.

    All of the above discourages ganking, where in contrast, in many of these PvP MMO's, ganking gets the most reward, as you have means to secure your progress in banks or build alt accounts that are funded by a safe and secure main account, then they are able to just run around risk-free attacking other players. Often using whatever is the OP FOTM build that gives them the best chance to insta-win any fight.

    Thus these games are a breeding ground for the most egotistical gankers as that play style is encouraged by the game mechanics themselves, this gets old quick for anyone that put any effort into grinding the game to make progress.

    They move on and quickly the game devolves into just people looking to kill, and when the gankers realize that all that remains are hard core PvP players and their easy targets are gone, they cry that the game is bugged and the mechanics suck, and that is why the game failed.

    They are sadly partly right.. because it was bad game mechanics that rewarded ganking made the game fail, but if they were not in the game (AKA: Like Survival games) these gankers would not be playing those games, as they don't want to face risk.

    Just my observations.
    Kyleran
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