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Jagex Permanently Bans Twitch Streamer for Telling a Suicidal Person to Kill Themselves on Air

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Comments

  • DauzqulDauzqul Member RarePosts: 1,982
    I'd like to impose an age requirement for MMORPGs. I can't stand people in their teens and early 20s. My goodness. They are all so annoying.
    Slapshot1188GdemamiMrMelGibson
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    Xasapis said:
    Not sure why it's newsworthy. Not the first stupid streamer that got banned, nor the last.

    Whether he should be banned from the actual game for actions performed outside the game, is another topic that has more to do with the abuse of consumer rights by the game model that turns from a product into a service.
    Its not an abuse of consumer rights at all as he makes money via streaming their product. Him getting banned is no different than a celebrity or sports person getting dropped by their sponsors when they do something terrible.
    There is quite a difference actually. His actions in the stream rightfully cost him his channel. However I did not see any action in-game that would justify the game ban. I guess there is substance to the story, but for a different reason that the original title implies.
  • TaltosKhanTaltosKhan Member UncommonPosts: 13
    Up until today I didn't care one way or another about streamers. I like to play my games not watch someone else do it. But as of this moment I am 100% support of Streaming. Let their actions be out there for everyone to see. May their prospective employers find them 5 years from now, both for the charity streamers and the people such as this.
    Asm0deus
  • KalebGraysonKalebGrayson Member RarePosts: 430
    edited January 2019
    @ MrZebub... I agree with some of what you say to a point, but my first reaction is, while there are definitely crazies out there, the chance that you meet one in real life, where there is no/little anonymity in public seems MUCH smaller than the chance I'll run into one online. Sometimes I think being online is somewhat like being mildly inebriated. People sometime say what they otherwise wouldn't, were they not intoxicated or were they face to face. My second reaction is to question why do folks WANT to be anonymous online? Is it to hide something they are ashamed of, or role-play as something they might not otherwise tell co-workers about, etc..., or is it just so they can be jerks and get away with it??? I'm just thinking out loud here...
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    edited January 2019
    Sharne said:
    Xasapis said:
    Xasapis said:
    Not sure why it's newsworthy. Not the first stupid streamer that got banned, nor the last.

    Whether he should be banned from the actual game for actions performed outside the game, is another topic that has more to do with the abuse of consumer rights by the game model that turns from a product into a service.
    Its not an abuse of consumer rights at all as he makes money via streaming their product. Him getting banned is no different than a celebrity or sports person getting dropped by their sponsors when they do something terrible.
    There is quite a difference actually. His actions in the stream rightfully cost him his channel. However I did not see any action in-game that would justify the game ban. I guess there is substance to the story, but for a different reason that the original title implies.
    I guess if we look at the context, we can see how wrong what he did was. 

    1) He was streaming gameplay.
    2) He called one of his friends (I use this term loosely) who he knows is suicidal (or at least not in the best of mental health), mutes the mic and then tells them to kill themselves.

    Quick question, what if the girl he called was watching his twitch channel and heard him say what he did??

    People have been prosecuted for telling people to kill themselves and the people following through and doing it.

    In the grand scheme of things, he got off very very lightly, hopefully now he will grow up a bit and learn that there are consequences for every action.



    So what if he was watching Game of Thrones while streaming? Netflix should have axed his subscription?

    I'm not discussing whether what he did was stupid or tbh evil. I'm discussing whether what happened was relevant to what he did.
    Slapshot1188Thupli
  • LackingMMOLackingMMO Member RarePosts: 660
    There are certain things people shouldn't joke about. Im all for making fun of almost anything, stereotypes included. Telling someone to kill themselves isn't a joke in any way. Don't know this guy or too much about the game if he was on a pvp/pve server but sometimes things don't work out the way you want/expect. Could be the audience he is catering too as well, id be curious to see the chat to see how his fans were reacting.
    Asm0deus
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,018
    edited January 2019
    Xasapis said:
    Sharne said:
    Xasapis said:
    Xasapis said:
    Not sure why it's newsworthy. Not the first stupid streamer that got banned, nor the last.

    Whether he should be banned from the actual game for actions performed outside the game, is another topic that has more to do with the abuse of consumer rights by the game model that turns from a product into a service.
    Its not an abuse of consumer rights at all as he makes money via streaming their product. Him getting banned is no different than a celebrity or sports person getting dropped by their sponsors when they do something terrible.
    There is quite a difference actually. His actions in the stream rightfully cost him his channel. However I did not see any action in-game that would justify the game ban. I guess there is substance to the story, but for a different reason that the original title implies.
    I guess if we look at the context, we can see how wrong what he did was. 

    1) He was streaming gameplay.
    2) He called one of his friends (I use this term loosely) who he knows is suicidal (or at least not in the best of mental health), mutes the mic and then tells them to kill themselves.

    Quick question, what if the girl he called was watching his twitch channel and heard him say what he did??

    People have been prosecuted for telling people to kill themselves and the people following through and doing it.

    In the grand scheme of things, he got off very very lightly, hopefully now he will grow up a bit and learn that there are consequences for every action.



    So what if he was watching Game of Thrones while streaming? Netflix should have axed his subscription?

    I'm not discussing whether what he did was stupid or tbh evil. I'm discussing whether what happened was relevant to what he did.
    Pretty sure you're not suppose to stream copyrighted material and can be banned...so yes.  Pretty sure netflix can refuse you access to their content.


    Slapshot said earlier that the road to hell is paved with good intentions but likewise freedom is the rope the devil wants you to hang yourself with.

    If you take away a platforms right to deny service for something like the "ma fweedoms complaint" you're already striking a blow against freedom in a way.

    If someone should be allowed the "freedom" to use the provided rope it needs to go all the way, not be one sided.
    [Deleted User]marcio519mmolou

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    Asm0deus said:
    Xasapis said:
    Sharne said:
    Xasapis said:
    Xasapis said:
    Not sure why it's newsworthy. Not the first stupid streamer that got banned, nor the last.

    Whether he should be banned from the actual game for actions performed outside the game, is another topic that has more to do with the abuse of consumer rights by the game model that turns from a product into a service.
    Its not an abuse of consumer rights at all as he makes money via streaming their product. Him getting banned is no different than a celebrity or sports person getting dropped by their sponsors when they do something terrible.
    There is quite a difference actually. His actions in the stream rightfully cost him his channel. However I did not see any action in-game that would justify the game ban. I guess there is substance to the story, but for a different reason that the original title implies.
    I guess if we look at the context, we can see how wrong what he did was. 

    1) He was streaming gameplay.
    2) He called one of his friends (I use this term loosely) who he knows is suicidal (or at least not in the best of mental health), mutes the mic and then tells them to kill themselves.

    Quick question, what if the girl he called was watching his twitch channel and heard him say what he did??

    People have been prosecuted for telling people to kill themselves and the people following through and doing it.

    In the grand scheme of things, he got off very very lightly, hopefully now he will grow up a bit and learn that there are consequences for every action.



    So what if he was watching Game of Thrones while streaming? Netflix should have axed his subscription?

    I'm not discussing whether what he did was stupid or tbh evil. I'm discussing whether what happened was relevant to what he did.
    Pretty sure you're not suppose to stream copyrighted material and can be banned...so yes.
    Forgetting the copyright aspect for a second, do you think a Netflix termination of subscription would be reasonable? Or why stop to that, termination of his internet access, power supply and phone access.

    I mean, why not go all out reacting in a completely irrelevant manner to the action?

    Personally, I think that the only reasonable outcome would be the prosecution by some law enforcing agency. Encouraging a desperate person to commit suicide can't be legal. A proper example need to be made out of the offender, something that I have not seen happening so far.
    [Deleted User]Thupli
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,803
    Xasapis said:
    Sharne said:
    Xasapis said:
    Xasapis said:
    Not sure why it's newsworthy. Not the first stupid streamer that got banned, nor the last.

    Whether he should be banned from the actual game for actions performed outside the game, is another topic that has more to do with the abuse of consumer rights by the game model that turns from a product into a service.
    Its not an abuse of consumer rights at all as he makes money via streaming their product. Him getting banned is no different than a celebrity or sports person getting dropped by their sponsors when they do something terrible.
    There is quite a difference actually. His actions in the stream rightfully cost him his channel. However I did not see any action in-game that would justify the game ban. I guess there is substance to the story, but for a different reason that the original title implies.
    I guess if we look at the context, we can see how wrong what he did was. 

    1) He was streaming gameplay.
    2) He called one of his friends (I use this term loosely) who he knows is suicidal (or at least not in the best of mental health), mutes the mic and then tells them to kill themselves.

    Quick question, what if the girl he called was watching his twitch channel and heard him say what he did??

    People have been prosecuted for telling people to kill themselves and the people following through and doing it.

    In the grand scheme of things, he got off very very lightly, hopefully now he will grow up a bit and learn that there are consequences for every action.



    So what if he was watching Game of Thrones while streaming? Netflix should have axed his subscription?

    I'm not discussing whether what he did was stupid or tbh evil. I'm discussing whether what happened was relevant to what he did.
    I would offer that one is a more passive activity and one more active.

    Had he been watching game of thrones and publcily commenting on it (say, streaming it and talking about it) and then called this person that might cause the network to make some sort of comment that they don't condone this type of behavior blah blah blah.

    Here's the thing, he gets to be an asshole/man-boy and luckily no one got hurt in the process of him figuring out how to have empathy. He also gets to experience backlash for his behavior.

    It's ok for him to be a the type of person he is as long as he doesn't cause anyone harm and it's ok for a company to say that they don't want his business.
    [Deleted User]Asm0deus
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • WBadgerWBadger Member UncommonPosts: 355

    10. USER CONTENT

    You will comply with and be bound by the policies and rules of a Jagex Product relating to User Content, including our content standards policy as set out in section 11 below.

    We reserve the right without notice or refund to record, suspend, remove or delete User Content or to disclose to the relevant authorities any User Content if: (a) it is the subject of a complaint; (b) if we consider that it breaches our terms and conditions (including our content standards policy) or the rules of a Jagex Product; (c) if we consider that such steps are necessary to protect us or others; (d) a criminal act or civil wrong has been committed; or (e) we are required to do so by law or an appropriate authority.

    11. CONTENT STANDARDS POLICY

    This content standards policy sets out our requirements which apply to your User Content. This policy applies in addition to web page specific User Content policies, such as any policies on forum posts, in-game chat and private messaging or other policies on our websites from time to time.

    In addition to agreeing to comply with the letter of this policy, you also undertake to comply with the spirit behind it. You must not encourage or assist any other user to breach this policy. You are solely responsible for your User Content including any User Content you place on any wiki or forum.

    User Content:

    • Must:
      • be accurate, complete, uploaded or sent in good faith and compliant with all applicable laws, regulations and codes of conduct; and
      • only be uploaded or sent if you own the rights in such content, have appropriate permission from the rights owner, or are otherwise authorized by law.
    • Must Not:
      • be obscene, hateful, inflammatory, threatening, harassing, sexually explicit or deceptive or fraudulent in anyway;
      • promote violence or discrimination, promote or endorse any illegal activity or otherwise be objectionable;


    12. JAGEX STOPPING YOUR ACCOUNT

    If, acting reasonably, we consider that:

    1. our terms and conditions or any Jagex Product rules - have or may have been breached;
    2. there has been fraudulent, unlawful or abusive activity; or
    3. it is necessary in order to prevent or stop any harm or damage to us, to any Jagex Product, to other players or the general public

    We may at any time: (i) Stop (as defined above) any or all accounts for Jagex Products; (ii) restrict access to any content-uploading or other feature of our service; and/or (iii) restrict access to or delete virtual currency or anything acquired by means of virtual currency. These actions may result in loss of real money paid in prohibited transactions, such as account trading. If we take any of the above action, you may have a right of appeal.

    WE DO NOT GUARANTEE THE ONGOING SUPPLY OF ANY JAGEX PRODUCT. UPON REASONABLE NOTICE TO YOU, JAGEX MAY DEACTIVATE ANY ACCOUNT AND YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO ANY REFUND FOR ANY AMOUNTS PAID IN CONNECTION WITH THE ACCOUNT.

    These are the relevant rules from Jagex's terms and conditions.  He violated the user content rule because it violated the content standards policy, so jagex stopped his accounts because it broke their terms and conditions. (Cut some of the excess out for space)

    KyleranMadFrenchie[Deleted User]mmolouinfomatzmarcio519RobbgobbReverielleNepheth
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    Wankyudo said:

    10. USER CONTENT

    You will comply with and be bound by the policies and rules of a Jagex Product relating to User Content, including our content standards policy as set out in section 11 below.

    We reserve the right without notice or refund to record, suspend, remove or delete User Content or to disclose to the relevant authorities any User Content if: (a) it is the subject of a complaint; (b) if we consider that it breaches our terms and conditions (including our content standards policy) or the rules of a Jagex Product; (c) if we consider that such steps are necessary to protect us or others; (d) a criminal act or civil wrong has been committed; or (e) we are required to do so by law or an appropriate authority.

    11. CONTENT STANDARDS POLICY

    This content standards policy sets out our requirements which apply to your User Content. This policy applies in addition to web page specific User Content policies, such as any policies on forum posts, in-game chat and private messaging or other policies on our websites from time to time.

    In addition to agreeing to comply with the letter of this policy, you also undertake to comply with the spirit behind it. You must not encourage or assist any other user to breach this policy. You are solely responsible for your User Content including any User Content you place on any wiki or forum.

    User Content:

    • Must:
      • be accurate, complete, uploaded or sent in good faith and compliant with all applicable laws, regulations and codes of conduct; and
      • only be uploaded or sent if you own the rights in such content, have appropriate permission from the rights owner, or are otherwise authorized by law.
    • Must Not:
      • be obscene, hateful, inflammatory, threatening, harassing, sexually explicit or deceptive or fraudulent in anyway;
      • promote violence or discrimination, promote or endorse any illegal activity or otherwise be objectionable;


    12. JAGEX STOPPING YOUR ACCOUNT

    If, acting reasonably, we consider that:

    1. our terms and conditions or any Jagex Product rules - have or may have been breached;
    2. there has been fraudulent, unlawful or abusive activity; or
    3. it is necessary in order to prevent or stop any harm or damage to us, to any Jagex Product, to other players or the general public

    We may at any time: (i) Stop (as defined above) any or all accounts for Jagex Products; (ii) restrict access to any content-uploading or other feature of our service; and/or (iii) restrict access to or delete virtual currency or anything acquired by means of virtual currency. These actions may result in loss of real money paid in prohibited transactions, such as account trading. If we take any of the above action, you may have a right of appeal.

    WE DO NOT GUARANTEE THE ONGOING SUPPLY OF ANY JAGEX PRODUCT. UPON REASONABLE NOTICE TO YOU, JAGEX MAY DEACTIVATE ANY ACCOUNT AND YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO ANY REFUND FOR ANY AMOUNTS PAID IN CONNECTION WITH THE ACCOUNT.

    These are the relevant rules from Jagex's terms and conditions.  He violated the user content rule because it violated the content standards policy, so jagex stopped his accounts because it broke their terms and conditions. (Cut some of the excess out for space)

    Did he talk to that girl through the phone or he messaged her through the game? If it's the former, why the phone company did not terminate his subscription. If it's the former, why is the game's TOS relevant?
    Slapshot1188Tuor7ReverielleThupli
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,018
    edited January 2019
    Xasapis said:
    Asm0deus said:
    Xasapis said:
    Sharne said:
    Xasapis said:
    Xasapis said:
    Not sure why it's newsworthy. Not the first stupid streamer that got banned, nor the last.

    Whether he should be banned from the actual game for actions performed outside the game, is another topic that has more to do with the abuse of consumer rights by the game model that turns from a product into a service.
    Its not an abuse of consumer rights at all as he makes money via streaming their product. Him getting banned is no different than a celebrity or sports person getting dropped by their sponsors when they do something terrible.
    There is quite a difference actually. His actions in the stream rightfully cost him his channel. However I did not see any action in-game that would justify the game ban. I guess there is substance to the story, but for a different reason that the original title implies.
    I guess if we look at the context, we can see how wrong what he did was. 

    1) He was streaming gameplay.
    2) He called one of his friends (I use this term loosely) who he knows is suicidal (or at least not in the best of mental health), mutes the mic and then tells them to kill themselves.

    Quick question, what if the girl he called was watching his twitch channel and heard him say what he did??

    People have been prosecuted for telling people to kill themselves and the people following through and doing it.

    In the grand scheme of things, he got off very very lightly, hopefully now he will grow up a bit and learn that there are consequences for every action.



    So what if he was watching Game of Thrones while streaming? Netflix should have axed his subscription?

    I'm not discussing whether what he did was stupid or tbh evil. I'm discussing whether what happened was relevant to what he did.
    Pretty sure you're not suppose to stream copyrighted material and can be banned...so yes.
    Forgetting the copyright aspect for a second, do you think a Netflix termination of subscription would be reasonable? Or why stop to that, termination of his internet access, power supply and phone access.

    I mean, why not go all out reacting in a completely irrelevant manner to the action?

    Personally, I think that the only reasonable outcome would be the prosecution by some law enforcing agency. Encouraging a desperate person to commit suicide can't be legal. A proper example need to be made out of the offender, something that I have not seen happening so far.
    Answer me this.  Do you think it's reasonable to infringe on a companies right to refuse service in favor of a persons "right" to his freedoms?

    I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, using common sense... the problem in discussions like these is people rarely do and instead try to use convoluted unreasonable examples simply to prove themselves right.

    If the joker that got banned feels it's unjust he can exercise his right to contest it or bring them to court if he so strongly feels his "rights" have been trampled on.

    Another thing not to confuse is that somethings are a privileges and not rights, like having a license to drive a car.  Can't help but feel that twitch, gaming etc are privileges we pay for and as such you can lose those privileges without it being an attack on anyone freedoms.
    [Deleted User]sarah116MadFrenchie

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 3,054
    Ehhh
    Not a fan of BigBrother
    Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.
    As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.

    When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.
    That includes freedom to be an ass.

    If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.

    I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.


    People lose their jobs for posting dumb shit on their personal social media profiles on their own personal time. It's all about reputation. Corporations don't want any association with negative publicity like that.
    KyleranMadFrenchiemmolouMrMelGibson
  • WBadgerWBadger Member UncommonPosts: 355
    Xasapis said:
    Wankyudo said:

    10. USER CONTENT

    You will comply with and be bound by the policies and rules of a Jagex Product relating to User Content, including our content standards policy as set out in section 11 below.

    We reserve the right without notice or refund to record, suspend, remove or delete User Content or to disclose to the relevant authorities any User Content if: (a) it is the subject of a complaint; (b) if we consider that it breaches our terms and conditions (including our content standards policy) or the rules of a Jagex Product; (c) if we consider that such steps are necessary to protect us or others; (d) a criminal act or civil wrong has been committed; or (e) we are required to do so by law or an appropriate authority.

    11. CONTENT STANDARDS POLICY

    This content standards policy sets out our requirements which apply to your User Content. This policy applies in addition to web page specific User Content policies, such as any policies on forum posts, in-game chat and private messaging or other policies on our websites from time to time.

    In addition to agreeing to comply with the letter of this policy, you also undertake to comply with the spirit behind it. You must not encourage or assist any other user to breach this policy. You are solely responsible for your User Content including any User Content you place on any wiki or forum.

    User Content:

    • Must:
      • be accurate, complete, uploaded or sent in good faith and compliant with all applicable laws, regulations and codes of conduct; and
      • only be uploaded or sent if you own the rights in such content, have appropriate permission from the rights owner, or are otherwise authorized by law.
    • Must Not:
      • be obscene, hateful, inflammatory, threatening, harassing, sexually explicit or deceptive or fraudulent in anyway;
      • promote violence or discrimination, promote or endorse any illegal activity or otherwise be objectionable;


    12. JAGEX STOPPING YOUR ACCOUNT

    If, acting reasonably, we consider that:

    1. our terms and conditions or any Jagex Product rules - have or may have been breached;
    2. there has been fraudulent, unlawful or abusive activity; or
    3. it is necessary in order to prevent or stop any harm or damage to us, to any Jagex Product, to other players or the general public

    We may at any time: (i) Stop (as defined above) any or all accounts for Jagex Products; (ii) restrict access to any content-uploading or other feature of our service; and/or (iii) restrict access to or delete virtual currency or anything acquired by means of virtual currency. These actions may result in loss of real money paid in prohibited transactions, such as account trading. If we take any of the above action, you may have a right of appeal.

    WE DO NOT GUARANTEE THE ONGOING SUPPLY OF ANY JAGEX PRODUCT. UPON REASONABLE NOTICE TO YOU, JAGEX MAY DEACTIVATE ANY ACCOUNT AND YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO ANY REFUND FOR ANY AMOUNTS PAID IN CONNECTION WITH THE ACCOUNT.

    These are the relevant rules from Jagex's terms and conditions.  He violated the user content rule because it violated the content standards policy, so jagex stopped his accounts because it broke their terms and conditions. (Cut some of the excess out for space)

    Did he talk to that girl through the phone or he messaged her through the game? If it's the former, why the phone company did not terminate his subscription. If it's the former, why is the game's TOS relevant?
    He's streaming in the runescape directory with runescape running in the background while he is doing this, thus the user content and content standards policy are applicable.  What the phone company does is completely irrelevant to what happened to his game account or his actions, they have their own standards.  This is completely on Jagex's user content rules, which because he's in that directory he has to uphold or they can terminate his account.
    Asm0deusmmolouinfomatz
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    Asm0deus said:
    Xasapis said:
    Asm0deus said:
    Xasapis said:
    Sharne said:
    Xasapis said:
    Xasapis said:
    Not sure why it's newsworthy. Not the first stupid streamer that got banned, nor the last.

    Whether he should be banned from the actual game for actions performed outside the game, is another topic that has more to do with the abuse of consumer rights by the game model that turns from a product into a service.
    Its not an abuse of consumer rights at all as he makes money via streaming their product. Him getting banned is no different than a celebrity or sports person getting dropped by their sponsors when they do something terrible.
    There is quite a difference actually. His actions in the stream rightfully cost him his channel. However I did not see any action in-game that would justify the game ban. I guess there is substance to the story, but for a different reason that the original title implies.
    I guess if we look at the context, we can see how wrong what he did was. 

    1) He was streaming gameplay.
    2) He called one of his friends (I use this term loosely) who he knows is suicidal (or at least not in the best of mental health), mutes the mic and then tells them to kill themselves.

    Quick question, what if the girl he called was watching his twitch channel and heard him say what he did??

    People have been prosecuted for telling people to kill themselves and the people following through and doing it.

    In the grand scheme of things, he got off very very lightly, hopefully now he will grow up a bit and learn that there are consequences for every action.



    So what if he was watching Game of Thrones while streaming? Netflix should have axed his subscription?

    I'm not discussing whether what he did was stupid or tbh evil. I'm discussing whether what happened was relevant to what he did.
    Pretty sure you're not suppose to stream copyrighted material and can be banned...so yes.
    Forgetting the copyright aspect for a second, do you think a Netflix termination of subscription would be reasonable? Or why stop to that, termination of his internet access, power supply and phone access.

    I mean, why not go all out reacting in a completely irrelevant manner to the action?

    Personally, I think that the only reasonable outcome would be the prosecution by some law enforcing agency. Encouraging a desperate person to commit suicide can't be legal. A proper example need to be made out of the offender, something that I have not seen happening so far.
    Answer me this.  Do you think it's reasonable to infringe on a companies right to refuse service in favor of a persons "right" his freedoms?

    I think the truth is somewhere in the middle using common sense... the problem in discussion like these people rarely do and instead try to use convoluted unreasonable examples simply to prove themselves right.

    If the joker that got banned feels it's unjust he can excersise his right to contest it or bring them to court if he so strongly feels his "rights" have been trampled on.

    Another thing not to confuse is that somethings are a privilege and not a right, like having a license to drive a car.  Can't help but feel that twitch, gaming etc are privileges we pay for and as such you can lose those privileges without it being an attack on anyone freedoms.
    The industry in general has become problematic when it switched from providing products to providing services.

    Runescape just proved to be one of those problematic services that can and will terminate their services for any reason irrelevant to said services.

    We already had EA terminating an Origin account and all games in it a while back.

    These are worrisome precedences that should concern gamers.

    That streamer losing his stream channel (which was the equivalent of getting fired) was the minimum reasonable response I would expect. The other would be from agents of the law, not corporations pretending to be arbiters of morality.
    Slapshot1188meonthissitesarah116Tuor7Gdemamimmolou
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    Wankyudo said:
    Xasapis said:
    Wankyudo said:

    ...

    Did he talk to that girl through the phone or he messaged her through the game? If it's the former, why the phone company did not terminate his subscription. If it's the former, why is the game's TOS relevant?
    He's streaming in the runescape directory with runescape running in the background while he is doing this, thus the user content and content standards policy are applicable.  What the phone company does is completely irrelevant to what happened to his game account or his actions, they have their own standards.  This is completely on Jagex's user content rules, which because he's in that directory he has to uphold or they can terminate his account.
    You are reverting back to my Netflix argument. Either he was acting in the game, which would make the ban justifiable, or he wasn't. 

    Let me put it this way, if there was no stream, would Runescape would be justified in their ban? 


    meonthissiteTuor7Gdemami
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,018
    edited January 2019
    Xasapis said:
    Asm0deus said:
    ...snip...
    Answer me this.  Do you think it's reasonable to infringe on a companies right to refuse service in favor of a persons "right" his freedoms?

    I think the truth is somewhere in the middle using common sense... the problem in discussion like these people rarely do and instead try to use convoluted unreasonable examples simply to prove themselves right.

    If the joker that got banned feels it's unjust he can excersise his right to contest it or bring them to court if he so strongly feels his "rights" have been trampled on.

    Another thing not to confuse is that somethings are a privilege and not a right, like having a license to drive a car.  Can't help but feel that twitch, gaming etc are privileges we pay for and as such you can lose those privileges without it being an attack on anyone freedoms.
    The industry in general has become problematic when it switched from providing products to providing services.

    Runescape just proved to be one of those problematic services that can and will terminate their services for any reason irrelevant to said services.

    We already had EA terminating an Origin account and all games in it a while back.

    These are worrisome precedences that should concern gamers.

    That streamer losing his stream channel (which was the equivalent of getting fired) was the minimum reasonable response I would expect. The other would be from agents of the law, not corporations pretending to be arbiters of morality.
    You are confusing different issues here.  Whether a game is now a service or not is another discussion and is not really relevant as clearly many games, especially online ones are now services with different pay model, b2p,p2p,f2p, cashshop etc etc.

    This is only concerning if you plan to use said services in an unacceptable manner that should be clear to you after reading the eulas/tos when you sign up for said service.

    Also I agree he should have a visit from the authorities but I dunno what the laws are in his neck of the woods so I wont go there. 

    As for corporations peddling morality, this is another thing you're getting confused on, they are not doing such. They refused him service as it can tarnish and hurt their image/bottom line, they are simply protecting themselves. 

    They are not being arbitors of morality as that would be us the people and the people we voted in that make our laws and the religions/religious leaders we follow. etc etc

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • cochscochs Member UncommonPosts: 92
    Ehhh
    Not a fan of BigBrother
    Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.
    As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.

    When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.
    That includes freedom to be an ass.

    If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.

    I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.



    No you don't lose your freedom.  It wasn't a freedom you had to start with.  You don't get to go into a venue owned by someone else and play by your own rules.  You don't get to go into a movie theatre and stand up and tell the person behind you to kill themselves.

    Your analogy is completely flawed.  If a phone company finds you making harrasing phone calls or otherwise disturbing people uninvited, hell yes they will shut you down.

    You wouldn't want to live in a world that works like you describe.  You just didn't think this through enough to understand that.
    Asm0deus[Deleted User]Panther2103Tatsuya9411mmolouMrMelGibsonIselin
  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,149
    Ehhh
    Not a fan of BigBrother
    Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.
    As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.

    When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.
    That includes freedom to be an ass.

    If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.

    I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.


    I think you and I kinda figured out where each other are coming from on these topics in general via our PM convo recently.

    I get your aversion to censorship of any form.  With the connectivity of the internet, though, I have a sneaky suspicion he'd have enough folks think this is hilarious to not even notice the negative consequences you imply, as sad as that is to say.
    I disagreed with Slapshot until I didn't.  If it is that bad and isn't against the law. . make it against the law.  I argue the other way as well.  If we don't prosecute. . then why is it still against the law.

    I do think that Twitch is a far cry from AT&T and would argue if someone used their cell phone to try to suggest someone kill themselves they would have the right to shut down that service.  Isn't *not* allowing the company to do that making us the ultimate big brother?  (terrible argument. . I know :)
    Slapshot1188

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,663
    cochs said:
    Ehhh
    Not a fan of BigBrother
    Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.
    As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.

    When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.
    That includes freedom to be an ass.

    If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.

    I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.



    No you don't lose your freedom.  It wasn't a freedom you had to start with.  You don't get to go into a venue owned by someone else and play by your own rules.  You don't get to go into a movie theatre and stand up and tell the person behind you to kill themselves.

    Your analogy is completely flawed.  If a phone company finds you making harrasing phone calls or otherwise disturbing people uninvited, hell yes they will shut you down.

    You wouldn't want to live in a world that works like you describe.  You just didn't think this through enough to understand that.
    Nothing like you described is what happened.  Not even remotely.  The fact he was playing the game had zero, absolutely zero to do with his action.

    Believe me.  I have given this a lot of thought.  You can ask Frenchie :)

    There are ramifications here far beyond the surface.  

    I'm not trying to convince anyone whatsoever.  I knew it would be an unpopular position but I think it's important that people at least get exposed to it.


    MadFrenchieTuor7Gdemami

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • meonthissitemeonthissite Member UncommonPosts: 917
    What always amazes me with these people is that they think they can just say and do anything online anymore without consequence and that an apology is in any way going to fix what you did. It's not, and apologizing can still come about in a guilty mind. It doesn't mean people have to forgive you.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,663
    Aethaeryn said:
    Ehhh
    Not a fan of BigBrother
    Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.
    As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.

    When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.
    That includes freedom to be an ass.

    If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.

    I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.


    I think you and I kinda figured out where each other are coming from on these topics in general via our PM convo recently.

    I get your aversion to censorship of any form.  With the connectivity of the internet, though, I have a sneaky suspicion he'd have enough folks think this is hilarious to not even notice the negative consequences you imply, as sad as that is to say.
    I disagreed with Slapshot until I didn't.  If it is that bad and isn't against the law. . make it against the law.  I argue the other way as well.  If we don't prosecute. . then why is it still against the law.

    I do think that Twitch is a far cry from AT&T and would argue if someone used their cell phone to try to suggest someone kill themselves they would have the right to shut down that service.  Isn't *not* allowing the company to do that making us the ultimate big brother?  (terrible argument. . I know :)
    I think the argument about Twitch is a different one than JagEx.  So since this title was about JagEx that's what I focus on.  I think there is somewhat more of a case to be made for Twitch.  Not that I would agree necessarily but that is at least on somewhat firmer ground than JagEx.

    The last thing I want is for companies to play moral police.  If he broke a law, then he should get prosecuted.  If he didn't, then it's damn scary that we would let a company play moral police because we agree the guy is an asshole.  Someday (maybe even today!) someone might think I'm the asshole. Maybe even for defending the guy, and then Comcast pulls my service...

    It's a bad road.  I know people are trying to judge based on whether what the guy did was bad...it was.  There is no arguing it.  But bad and illegal are two different things and letting companies become the moral arbiters (for stuff not within their games) is a very dark road to start down.

    (sorry.. I said I wouldn't debate it but I honestly love these conversations... I will do my best to have self-control for the rest of the night).

    Tuor7GdemamiMrMelGibson

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • meonthissitemeonthissite Member UncommonPosts: 917
    I completely agree that streams should be monitored for behavior like this. This to me is the only hate speech that can be quantified. Telling a suicidal person to go kill themselves is the same as telling a jumper to jump off a building or bridge and then laughing about it. That to me is hate speech and is completely justified.

    Racism, sexism, and bigotry on these platforms are not the same as hate speech because there are options to block. In this case however that streamer called the person on the phone.

    The phone company can't ban the person but twitch and the game company certainly can for that!

    Had it been someone on the forums of the game itself or other online means of text communication, they'd have shakier ground to stand on.
  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,020
    Xasapis said:
    Wankyudo said:

    10. USER CONTENT

    You will comply with and be bound by the policies and rules of a Jagex Product relating to User Content, including our content standards policy as set out in section 11 below.

    We reserve the right without notice or refund to record, suspend, remove or delete User Content or to disclose to the relevant authorities any User Content if: (a) it is the subject of a complaint; (b) if we consider that it breaches our terms and conditions (including our content standards policy) or the rules of a Jagex Product; (c) if we consider that such steps are necessary to protect us or others; (d) a criminal act or civil wrong has been committed; or (e) we are required to do so by law or an appropriate authority.

    11. CONTENT STANDARDS POLICY

    This content standards policy sets out our requirements which apply to your User Content. This policy applies in addition to web page specific User Content policies, such as any policies on forum posts, in-game chat and private messaging or other policies on our websites from time to time.

    In addition to agreeing to comply with the letter of this policy, you also undertake to comply with the spirit behind it. You must not encourage or assist any other user to breach this policy. You are solely responsible for your User Content including any User Content you place on any wiki or forum.

    User Content:

    • Must:
      • be accurate, complete, uploaded or sent in good faith and compliant with all applicable laws, regulations and codes of conduct; and
      • only be uploaded or sent if you own the rights in such content, have appropriate permission from the rights owner, or are otherwise authorized by law.
    • Must Not:
      • be obscene, hateful, inflammatory, threatening, harassing, sexually explicit or deceptive or fraudulent in anyway;
      • promote violence or discrimination, promote or endorse any illegal activity or otherwise be objectionable;


    12. JAGEX STOPPING YOUR ACCOUNT

    If, acting reasonably, we consider that:

    1. our terms and conditions or any Jagex Product rules - have or may have been breached;
    2. there has been fraudulent, unlawful or abusive activity; or
    3. it is necessary in order to prevent or stop any harm or damage to us, to any Jagex Product, to other players or the general public

    We may at any time: (i) Stop (as defined above) any or all accounts for Jagex Products; (ii) restrict access to any content-uploading or other feature of our service; and/or (iii) restrict access to or delete virtual currency or anything acquired by means of virtual currency. These actions may result in loss of real money paid in prohibited transactions, such as account trading. If we take any of the above action, you may have a right of appeal.

    WE DO NOT GUARANTEE THE ONGOING SUPPLY OF ANY JAGEX PRODUCT. UPON REASONABLE NOTICE TO YOU, JAGEX MAY DEACTIVATE ANY ACCOUNT AND YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO ANY REFUND FOR ANY AMOUNTS PAID IN CONNECTION WITH THE ACCOUNT.

    These are the relevant rules from Jagex's terms and conditions.  He violated the user content rule because it violated the content standards policy, so jagex stopped his accounts because it broke their terms and conditions. (Cut some of the excess out for space)

    Did he talk to that girl through the phone or he messaged her through the game? If it's the former, why the phone company did not terminate his subscription. If it's the former, why is the game's TOS relevant?
    User content, do you know what that means? A stream = user content.
    mmolou

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • SiphaedSiphaed Member RarePosts: 1,114






    Ehhh

    Not a fan of BigBrother

    Guy is a douche but he didn't do anything in the game to warrant JagEx getting involved.

    As far as Twitch... again, not a fan of allowing corporations to shut off people. Twitch is a platform like AT&T. I wouldn't want AT&T shutting down the service of some guy just because he is an asshole.



    When we allow corporations to do this we lose our freedom.

    That includes freedom to be an ass.



    If he broke any law (which might actually have been done) he should be prosecuted, but all this self-righteous banning needs to stop.



    I know many will differ and reply. In order to prevent this thread from getting shut down like every one before I will not respond. My point is simple. If the guy broke the law prosecute him. If not, and you dislike his actions, then don't watch him. I know I wouldn't. But banned from a game in which he did absolutely nothing wrong? That's insanity.







    I think you and I kinda figured out where each other are coming from on these topics in general via our PM convo recently.

    I get your aversion to censorship of any form.  With the connectivity of the internet, though, I have a sneaky suspicion he'd have enough folks think this is hilarious to not even notice the negative consequences you imply, as sad as that is to say.

    Just for clarity here (and I'll stay out) it's not censorship in any form.  It's based on who is doing the censorship and what is being censored.   Absolutely censor anything illegal.  I'm 100% OK with that.  But JagEx just banned a guy for something that had nothing to do with their game.   It's a slippery slope and that kind of action is waaaay down the slope.  Example, should a company be able to ban a fan who kneels during the national anthem because the company finds it disrespectful?  Not an employee, but a fan who was attending the game.  You start down the slope it just gets more and more slippery and momentum takes you to a very bad place.

    Just wanted to clarify for you.

    PS: I know it's not a popular stance.  That's OK. And yes, to repeat, the guy was a douche.







    Except your problem is that you have no concept of private property and the rights of the owners of said property. In particular, their rights to set rules related to their products that represent them as a company.

    What am I talking about?

    "User Content" means all information of any kind (including text, images, video, information and messages) uploaded or sent by users on or in connection with Jagex Products. Jagex Products may include social elements which permit players to come into contact with and chat to other players. Messages exchanged between players, whether in private in-game messaging or public forums, are included within this definition of User Content.

    https://www.jagex.com/en-GB/terms

    Section #11Content Standards Policy

    Must Not:

    *be obscene, hateful, inflammatory, threatening, harassing, sexually explicit or deceptive or fraudulent in anyway;
    *promote violence or discrimination, promote or endorse any illegal activity or otherwise be objectionable;
    *be defamatory or an invasion of an individual's right to privacy;
    *infringe the intellectual property or other rights of any third party, including copyrights, trade marks, database rights, any rights of confidentiality or any similar rights;
    *attempt to or purport to impersonate any person or misrepresent your identity, affiliation or connection to any other person;
    *include hyperlinks or connections to third party websites;
    *contain viruses, Trojans, worms, time-bombs, keystroke loggers, spyware, adware or any other harmful programs or similar computer code designed to adversely affect the operation of any computer software, hardware or network;
    *reveal details that enable you or anyone else to be identified or contacted outside of the game (e.g. last name, postal/email address or telephone number);
    * have any commercial purpose; and
    *involve junk mail, spam, pyramid selling or similar schemes.



    So it was hateful.
    It was inflammatory.
    Threatening.
    Harassment due to calling the person on the phone to tell them to kill themselves.
    Promoted violence.
    Invasion of their privacy by streaming a phone call to to them without informing them that the call was being recorded.

    Over 40 states have laws against assisted suicide, many of which state that advice or encouraging suicide is a crime. And conviction is real ( https://stories.avvo.com/crime/can-go-jail-encouraging-suicide.html )
    Asm0deus[Deleted User]LimnicmmolouCryomatrixLiljnaNepheth


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