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The lack of new Tabtarget/Normal Combat games... a huge chance for gaming companies.

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  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,290
    I prefer tab targeting myself.  Mostly because I have gotten older have have major issues with my hand.  Action combat isn't fun when you hand is killing you from holding a mouse.  I can use a controller to somewhat get around this when playing arpg's, but I can't stand using a controller for MMORPG's I prefer the mouse for that. 

    Many of the youths today have to have fast paced stuff to keep their attention.  They have been bombarded by stuff their entire lives unlike the older gamers who let's face it didn't see a ton of gaming outside of what we got our hands on.  It's just a change of times.  They want jump in kill some stuff move on.  Could have a lot to do with they have so many choices it is ridiculous, whereas myself growing up I might have gotten a new game every 4 to 5 months if I was lucky enough to save up the money from cutting grass to be able to afford that $30 game.
    HarikenPalebaneazarhal
  • MasoodVoonMasoodVoon Member UncommonPosts: 50
    Remali said:
    @Xiaoki and @Quizzical ; you are both correct that bdo averages 15k on steam even tho most ppl have gotten it from the official site since the steam version is problematic
    And yes it does promote afk activities but would you go so far to say that nobody wants it like the op does?
    If i had a guess wow is still king followed by bdo and eso who go head to head pop wise everything else is just too low to matter

    Yeah I've seen so many estimates of player bases. I would leave it to someone who plays all games to give an accurate estimation. I played FFXIV a few months ago for a bit and it seemed moderately busy but not super popular. WOW has always been its own category and will probably lose competition only to itself. ESO seems like it has the edge in the non-wow category now, but maybe I'm wrong.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,262
    edited January 2019
      I believe there are more people playing tab target games when discussing MMORPGs ( and for the record Destiny and its like) are not MMORPGs imo ..

         I know its hard to get numbers for many games .. But last i saw Lineage 1 has 11mill , now start adding in Wow F14 Lotro, SWTOR ,STO .. etc ..

        I dont particularly care either way , i play and enjoy both styles .. But if you were to go down the list on the right and pull only MMORPGs the majority are Tab Target games .. Would be difficult to get accurate numbers for most tho ..just imo\

     There are also millions of people playing TabTarget games on Private servers further making getting any numbers difficult

       
    Caylera
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member RarePosts: 701
    I like tab targeting better in mmorpg's here's why,

    Tab Targeting allows for more complexities and diversification in a long running game where you play for months and years.  It's the accumulative of abilities that stack to keep the on going character interesting to build....Skill trees and Talents.  


    As apposed to Real-time-combat abilities that you could do only so much with.  Boring after awhile. 
    For example:
    Melee fighter the best you can do is SWING faster, SWING harder, use less stamina...Boring ! 


    Putting the off combat character build aside, their equal as fun to play.  Both with pro's and con's 
    There's nothing about Tab Vs. Action combat that lends itself toward complex or simple.

    In BDO I have 42 abilities that interact with each other in complex ways. It's a long way from "SWING faster, SWING harder, use less stamina...Boring!"

    Meanwhile WoW has been dumbed down repeatedly.
    goboygo said:
    With the move to action combat I have seen the steady removal of complex skill systems.   Its harder for the player to keep their target in line with the cursor while cycling through dozens of skills.  Tab targeting allowed for deep and complex skill rotations.  I just don't see it anymore with the move to "action" combat.  Less brain power more twitch seems to be trend.
    There's nothing about action combat that precludes complex skill rotations.

    TERA has more complex combos than WoW, Rift or FFXIV ever dreamed of.

    Blade & Soul has a smaller skill pool of perhaps 20 abilities, but there was still a lot of complexity there.

    Example:



    BloodaxesTorval
  • HarikenHariken Member RarePosts: 2,475
    goboygo said:
    With the move to action combat I have seen the steady removal of complex skill systems.   Its harder for the player to keep their target in line with the cursor while cycling through dozens of skills.  Tab targeting allowed for deep and complex skill rotations.  I just don't see it anymore with the move to "action" combat.  Less brain power more twitch seems to be trend.
    Notice how modern MMO's have fewer skills because of action combat. I love the old school MMOs with rows of skills on how bars. You had to think about what to use to be a good player.
  • RemaliRemali Member UncommonPosts: 420
    There are fewer skills because todays devs have in mind to expand t o consoles too at one point
    with keyboard and mouse you can have as many skills as you want.
    An example of this is bdo in pc version you have 30-40 abilities but the xbox version from what I can tell from vids I saw is nothing like it . Its watered down and kinda boring tbh
     so pc all the way !
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    Tab targeting is fine, just keep it far away from from PVP. Projectiles curving to hit a target is a pain point for me. To each his own though. I'm not saying combat has to be super twitchy, it can be methodical.

    I feel like tab targeting was created to compensate for technological short coming in the early PC gaming days. It's 2019.
    AlBQuirky
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • LonzoLonzo Member UncommonPosts: 294
    DMKano said:
    The issue is tab targeting has fallen out of favor just like land-lines and cable TV.

    When you say big opportunity - you really mean - make a tab target game that caters to a small minority.

    The OP is simply mistaken about the size of the playerbase who wants tab-target only game.
    The two biggest MMOs (WOW and FF14)are actually Tabtargeting, so you might be a bit off with your numbers
    ArteriusGdemami

    image
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,071
    Lulz
  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member RarePosts: 4,220
    After playing games with good action combat, it's hard to go back to the basic tab target imo. Soft-lock is the only alternative I could stomach (something akin to archeage or guildwars 2) as it still requires you to be responsive.

    I still remember being bored to death in wow burning crusade dungeons. Hitting sponge enemies while clicking the same couple skills over and over without moving. Yea... I'm done with that.

    To each their own.
    AlBQuirkyTorval

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Quizzical said:
    DMKano said:
    Studios make games that can be played on every platform - consoles, mobile and PC - making a tab target game only limits you to PC - which studio in their right mind would make such a bad business decision.
    Tab target works fine on consoles, at least if you're willing to count "click this button to switch targets" even if that button doesn't say "Tab" on it.  People might decline to play a tab target game on a console because they don't like the game or because they don't like tab targeting, but that has nothing to do with consoles.

    The big limitations of using a controller are:
    1)  You can't do analog movements that are both fast and precise like you can with a mouse,
    2)  You don't have that many buttons, so if you want a lot of hotkeys, you have to jump to combinations of buttons that you can't hit that quickly, and
    3)  You need a versatile control scheme that allows players to remap things in ways that the designers never anticipated.

    Point (3) is huge on a PC, but might be moot on a console if you know that all of your players are using exactly this particular controller, but (1) and (2) are still major issues.

    As for mobile, that's a different genre entirely, with very little overlap with console or PC gaming.  Sometimes a mobile game may also be available for PC if it's easy enough to port, but being playable on mobile really cripples what they can do, and they're not expecting to make much money off of the PC version.  The problem isn't merely that you don't have a button to switch targets; it's that you have no keys or buttons at all.
    Witcher 3 has a tab-targetting system, actually.

    As you imply, tab targetting is nothing more than target locking.  In that sense, tab target combat is still hugely popular, it's just not normally the ONLY method of attacking an enemy.  Your swings will still hit untargetted enemies in W3 if they are in your sword arc.
    AlBQuirky

    image
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,054
    Quizzical said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    I prefer tab targeting, myself, but I'm in the vast minority right now.

    Consoles are what I blame. ALL fingers and thumbs are utilized on a console controller, so it is hard to sit "and do nothing" but hit a key/button every now and again.

    It also depended on the MMORPG one played. I played a Bard in EQ 1 (tab target) and twisting songs (3 or 4 songs) was much busier than any "action combat" I've partaken in. And the songs weren't "automatic", meaning I'd see a lot of, "You missed a note and the songs ends."

    My most loved feature about tab targeting is when faced with a group of enemies, trying to "click" on the one you want can get quite frustrating for me.

    But alas, the money is with a more action oriented combat now, as combat is by far the number one activity in MMOs these days.
    For an industry that has moved to action combat for the sake of console controllers, there don't seem to be very many games in that category.  How many games are there that are:

    1)  released and not yet shut down
    2)  action combat
    3)  comfortable on a controller
    4)  plausibly described as an MMO
    5)  not tab target

    Off the top of my head, there is Spiral Knights, Tree of Savior, Kritika Online, Elsword, and that's it.  I haven't tried Vindictus, which might belong on that list, but that's all that I can think of.  I don't think any of those games are even available on consoles.

    There are kind of actiony games like Champions Online or Guild Wars 2 that are tab target.  There are some click-to-move games that are action combat, but click to move is death to controllers if you have to do it very precisely.  There are games like TERA that you might think were designed around consoles if you haven't tried using a controller with them, but are actually really awkward with a controller.

    There has certainly been a lot of movement toward action combat, but a lot of it assumes keyboard+mouse.  The movement toward controller-friendly has been much less, and would include some tab-targeting games like FFXIV.
    I think you misunderstood my "blaming consoles" comment. I didn't mean exclusively MMOs, but gaming in general. Since I don't play MMOs on a console, I have no idea what MMOs are available or not.

    It's the "action type combat" that consoles popularized. Constantly pressing buttons helps players feel like they're in the game, so to speak. That's just fine for those who like it. But it's not for everyone, hence why I only have my XBox 360 to play old Madden games (previous to 2010) and nothing else.

    I hope that helps explain my post a little better :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,054
    Sovrath said:
    The first time I played a tab target game I was dissapointed and hoped that someday someone would fix it.

    Now, having said that, I recognize the positives of tab target games and have enjoyed them and will continue to enjoy them but they don't really feel visceral or exciting. More like rolling a dice and getting an 18 and someone saying "you hit."
    Exactly! I enjoy that "visceral feeling" of killing 10 mobs in one swing on occasion, but I much prefer the "die rolling" aspect.

    I loaded up EQ 1 because I was seeking a D&D-ish simulator :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,054
    bcbully said:
    Lulz
    I thought the trend lately was "WTF?!?"  :lol:

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,827
    AlBQuirky said:
    Quizzical said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    I prefer tab targeting, myself, but I'm in the vast minority right now.

    Consoles are what I blame. ALL fingers and thumbs are utilized on a console controller, so it is hard to sit "and do nothing" but hit a key/button every now and again.

    It also depended on the MMORPG one played. I played a Bard in EQ 1 (tab target) and twisting songs (3 or 4 songs) was much busier than any "action combat" I've partaken in. And the songs weren't "automatic", meaning I'd see a lot of, "You missed a note and the songs ends."

    My most loved feature about tab targeting is when faced with a group of enemies, trying to "click" on the one you want can get quite frustrating for me.

    But alas, the money is with a more action oriented combat now, as combat is by far the number one activity in MMOs these days.
    For an industry that has moved to action combat for the sake of console controllers, there don't seem to be very many games in that category.  How many games are there that are:

    1)  released and not yet shut down
    2)  action combat
    3)  comfortable on a controller
    4)  plausibly described as an MMO
    5)  not tab target

    Off the top of my head, there is Spiral Knights, Tree of Savior, Kritika Online, Elsword, and that's it.  I haven't tried Vindictus, which might belong on that list, but that's all that I can think of.  I don't think any of those games are even available on consoles.

    There are kind of actiony games like Champions Online or Guild Wars 2 that are tab target.  There are some click-to-move games that are action combat, but click to move is death to controllers if you have to do it very precisely.  There are games like TERA that you might think were designed around consoles if you haven't tried using a controller with them, but are actually really awkward with a controller.

    There has certainly been a lot of movement toward action combat, but a lot of it assumes keyboard+mouse.  The movement toward controller-friendly has been much less, and would include some tab-targeting games like FFXIV.
    I think you misunderstood my "blaming consoles" comment. I didn't mean exclusively MMOs, but gaming in general. Since I don't play MMOs on a console, I have no idea what MMOs are available or not.

    It's the "action type combat" that consoles popularized. Constantly pressing buttons helps players feel like they're in the game, so to speak. That's just fine for those who like it. But it's not for everyone, hence why I only have my XBox 360 to play old Madden games (previous to 2010) and nothing else.

    I hope that helps explain my post a little better :)
    In that case, I'm puzzled as to what your argument is.  While action combat has long been common on consoles, that greatly predates MMORPGs.  For example, Space Invaders was pushing action combat more than 40 years ago.  Consoles never really went away, so it doesn't make sense to blame them for the rise and subsequent fall of tab targeting.
    Sovrath
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,340
    edited January 2019
    If the game has a reticle/action combat, i expect it to have controller support. However, i mostly prefer traditional tab target. My biggest problem with mmo combat that forces you to have a target in order to attack is the ranged attacks being tethered to the target. Watching a fireball or an arrow curve in mid air and hit you is beyond absurd in 2019.
    AlBQuirky




  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    If the game has a reticle/action combat, i expect it to have controller support. However, i mostly prefer traditional tab target. My biggest problem with mmo combat that forces you to have a target in order to attack is the ranged attacks being tethered to the target. Watching a fireball or an arrow curve in mid air and hit you is beyond absurd in 2019.
    Weird to consider AC had that solved back in 1999.
  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,921
    edited January 2019
    immodium said:
    As they're primarily very unstimulating when it comes to PvE.

    EQ was the worst offender in this regard. You could easily text chat, read a book, watch a film whilst engaged in combat.

    Make the PvE engaging.
    That was long before voice chat was a thing. Players needed that time to communicate things like being low on mana. I honestly miss the days when these games were about more than combat and gear progression. Theres enough genres that do combat and gear progression better, imo.

    Mmorpgs should start to design games to the one strength they have over the other genres; other people. Are there any mmos out there besides EvE and Second Life that dont largely feel like a watered down single-player experience these days? Any class can solo to max level in EQ now. Players can even hire npcs to help so you dont have to rely on the other players in the game except for gear progression.

    Maybe its just me. Im older now and have less in common with most players it seems. 
    Post edited by Palebane on
    AlBQuirkyMadFrenchie

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,894
    DMKano said:

    The OP is simply mistaken about the size of the playerbase who wants tab-target only game.
    I have no idea what any valid polls on this issue show. 

    Personally, I like and prefer tab targeting. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,158
    AlBQuirky said:
    Sovrath said:
    The first time I played a tab target game I was dissapointed and hoped that someday someone would fix it.

    Now, having said that, I recognize the positives of tab target games and have enjoyed them and will continue to enjoy them but they don't really feel visceral or exciting. More like rolling a dice and getting an 18 and someone saying "you hit."
    Exactly! I enjoy that "visceral feeling" of killing 10 mobs in one swing on occasion, but I much prefer the "die rolling" aspect.

    I loaded up EQ 1 because I was seeking a D&D-ish simulator :)
    I'm actually having a bit of fun in the Original Everquest.

    Takes forever to kill something but there is something satisfying about the leisurely aspect of it.

    Not visceral at all, but it has its fun.
    AmatheAlBQuirky



  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,360
    I never realized until now I've never rejecting playing an mmo based on being tab targeting or action.

    Liking the style or not is a different story, its how their implemented.  I've seen both good and bad in each depending on the game.

     
    I lean more on the side of tab if really picking one.  However when it has only 5 abilities because it's designed for consoles too, is an example of bad.
  • HashbrickHashbrick Member RarePosts: 1,851
    It's all evolution, the next step is full blown AAA VR/AR MMOs where your movements or brainwaves play the game.  Ideally you become comatose when playing to complete disregard the game of Real Life, which still to this day has the best graphics and gamplay.
    [[ DEAD ]] - Funny - I deleted my account on the site using the cancel account button.  Forum user is separate and still exists with no way of deleting it. Delete it admins. Do it, this ends now.
  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,527
    Hashbrick said:
    It's all evolution, the next step is full blown AAA VR/AR MMOs where your movements or brainwaves play the game.  Ideally you become comatose when playing to complete disregard the game of Real Life, which still to this day has the best graphics and gamplay.
    I sure hope so. I would love to just go AFK in real life and not have any stress and just play as my character in a fantasy game. Although there are all kinds of complications that would need to be accounted for like what if someone comes to the door while you are comatose, or something bad happens IRL and you are unaware. 
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,894
    Also keep in mind that first generation mmorpgs were populated with MUD players and pen and paper players. Just the fact that they could see their character in 3D swinging a sword was pretty exciting back then. Some people still like that. Such as me.
    SovrathAlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,054
    edited January 2019
    Quizzical said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Quizzical said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    I prefer tab targeting, myself, but I'm in the vast minority right now.

    Consoles are what I blame. ALL fingers and thumbs are utilized on a console controller, so it is hard to sit "and do nothing" but hit a key/button every now and again.

    It also depended on the MMORPG one played. I played a Bard in EQ 1 (tab target) and twisting songs (3 or 4 songs) was much busier than any "action combat" I've partaken in. And the songs weren't "automatic", meaning I'd see a lot of, "You missed a note and the songs ends."

    My most loved feature about tab targeting is when faced with a group of enemies, trying to "click" on the one you want can get quite frustrating for me.

    But alas, the money is with a more action oriented combat now, as combat is by far the number one activity in MMOs these days.
    For an industry that has moved to action combat for the sake of console controllers, there don't seem to be very many games in that category.  How many games are there that are:

    1)  released and not yet shut down
    2)  action combat
    3)  comfortable on a controller
    4)  plausibly described as an MMO
    5)  not tab target

    Off the top of my head, there is Spiral Knights, Tree of Savior, Kritika Online, Elsword, and that's it.  I haven't tried Vindictus, which might belong on that list, but that's all that I can think of.  I don't think any of those games are even available on consoles.

    There are kind of actiony games like Champions Online or Guild Wars 2 that are tab target.  There are some click-to-move games that are action combat, but click to move is death to controllers if you have to do it very precisely.  There are games like TERA that you might think were designed around consoles if you haven't tried using a controller with them, but are actually really awkward with a controller.

    There has certainly been a lot of movement toward action combat, but a lot of it assumes keyboard+mouse.  The movement toward controller-friendly has been much less, and would include some tab-targeting games like FFXIV.
    I think you misunderstood my "blaming consoles" comment. I didn't mean exclusively MMOs, but gaming in general. Since I don't play MMOs on a console, I have no idea what MMOs are available or not.

    It's the "action type combat" that consoles popularized. Constantly pressing buttons helps players feel like they're in the game, so to speak. That's just fine for those who like it. But it's not for everyone, hence why I only have my XBox 360 to play old Madden games (previous to 2010) and nothing else.

    I hope that helps explain my post a little better :)
    In that case, I'm puzzled as to what your argument is.  While action combat has long been common on consoles, that greatly predates MMORPGs.  For example, Space Invaders was pushing action combat more than 40 years ago.  Consoles never really went away, so it doesn't make sense to blame them for the rise and subsequent fall of tab targeting.
    More consoles than ever. More console players than ever. More MMOs than ever before. More MMO players than ever before. More players playing consoles and MMOs seeking the same action -like combat experience.

    I'm sorry my point seemed so "out there."

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


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