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Chronicles of Elyria: Wherefore Art Thou? - MMORPG.com

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  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,713
    Forgrimm said:
    Just checked the CoE forums, someone posted the full text of Tim's article there. Already 4 pages of responses. https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/30270/mmorpgcom-chronicles-of-elyria-wherefore-art-thou?page=1#31
    This here is my favorite post:

    Dellamorte


    Authored as an end user and not as a developer.

    As a person who has done quite a bit of both in my career, if I were a member of SBS I would say the following:

    Thanks for being polite.

    We acknowledge dates have been missed here, here, and here.

    We have a plan moving forward to accomplish xyz by these dates. We feel these dates are realistic compared to our other dates because of reasons xyz.

    The impact on timelines is the following (delays) (new timelines).

    Information will be released on the following schedule.

    Thanks



    This suggestion seems absolutely reasonable and polite to me.

    Can you guess what happened? They downvoted him lol

    Gdemamitweedledumb99
    Harbinger of Fools
  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Member EpicPosts: 4,602
    Dakeru said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Just checked the CoE forums, someone posted the full text of Tim's article there. Already 4 pages of responses. https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/30270/mmorpgcom-chronicles-of-elyria-wherefore-art-thou?page=1#31
    This here is my favorite post:

    Dellamorte


    Authored as an end user and not as a developer.

    As a person who has done quite a bit of both in my career, if I were a member of SBS I would say the following:

    Thanks for being polite.

    We acknowledge dates have been missed here, here, and here.

    We have a plan moving forward to accomplish xyz by these dates. We feel these dates are realistic compared to our other dates because of reasons xyz.

    The impact on timelines is the following (delays) (new timelines).

    Information will be released on the following schedule.

    Thanks



    This suggestion seems absolutely reasonable and polite to me.

    Can you guess what happened? They downvoted him lol

    True but if I threw away the money some of those people did to maybe play by the time they are collecting social security, I would probably downvote my own mother because bitter would be understatement. 

    Rational posts will get you nowhere.
    Gdemamitweedledumb99
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,620
    edited January 17
    Dakeru said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Just checked the CoE forums, someone posted the full text of Tim's article there. Already 4 pages of responses. https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/30270/mmorpgcom-chronicles-of-elyria-wherefore-art-thou?page=1#31
    This here is my favorite post:

    Dellamorte


    Authored as an end user and not as a developer.

    As a person who has done quite a bit of both in my career, if I were a member of SBS I would say the following:

    Thanks for being polite.

    We acknowledge dates have been missed here, here, and here.

    We have a plan moving forward to accomplish xyz by these dates. We feel these dates are realistic compared to our other dates because of reasons xyz.

    The impact on timelines is the following (delays) (new timelines).

    Information will be released on the following schedule.

    Thanks



    This suggestion seems absolutely reasonable and polite to me.

    Can you guess what happened? They downvoted him lol

    True but if I threw away the money some of those people did to maybe play by the time they are collecting social security, I would probably downvote my own mother because bitter would be understatement. 

    Rational posts will get you nowhere.
    Well clearly then it's time for me to head over there and create some irrational posts.

    Hold my beer, I've got this.

    :D
    parrotpholkDakeruSovrathAmathetweedledumb99

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited January 17
    It's funny to see the dichotomy within the groupthink materialize once again in that thread.

    One poster laments how folks wouldn't be worried if they had access to the restricted forum area, where there is just so much news about how the game is progressing along just fine.  Then we get another poster with this little tidbit:

    "**Sorry to shatter the illusion of superiority you're attempting to create, but there is so very little in early or exclusive access of any more value than what is public that your statement is absolutely asinine . . . 

    . . . as I said above, not much of anything ever in those forums that is better than what everyone knows, and when we do get something, it is generally shared with everyone very soon after"

    So which is it?

    image
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,958
    IMHO it's getting more and more cult-like every day.  Just check out this post from Caspien today telling people that 3rd party sites are "not interested in your happiness".  Think about what he is posting here.  Building distrust of news sites and 3rd party forums... only within the community do they truly care about you.   Wow... it's really getting to scary levels.



    SabracGdemamitweedledumb99

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,784
    IMHO it's getting more and more cult-like every day.  Just check out this post from Caspien today telling people that 3rd party sites are "not interested in your happiness".  Think about what he is posting here.  Building distrust of news sites and 3rd party forums... only within the community do they truly care about you.   Wow... it's really getting to scary levels.



    I think I'm going to trust whoever isn't after my money.
    LokeroMendelMadFrenchieGdemamiDakeru
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Member EpicPosts: 4,602
    IMHO it's getting more and more cult-like every day.  Just check out this post from Caspien today telling people that 3rd party sites are "not interested in your happiness".  Think about what he is posting here.  Building distrust of news sites and 3rd party forums... only within the community do they truly care about you.   Wow... it's really getting to scary levels.



    This is the Jim Jones drink the Kool Aid moment.  Glad the whales supported the Pay 2 Win event.  This is making me miss Star Citizen threads but I would vote for Max for cult leader so there is that!
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,958
    Kyleran said:
    Dakeru said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Just checked the CoE forums, someone posted the full text of Tim's article there. Already 4 pages of responses. https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/30270/mmorpgcom-chronicles-of-elyria-wherefore-art-thou?page=1#31
    This here is my favorite post:

    Dellamorte


    Authored as an end user and not as a developer.

    As a person who has done quite a bit of both in my career, if I were a member of SBS I would say the following:

    Thanks for being polite.

    We acknowledge dates have been missed here, here, and here.

    We have a plan moving forward to accomplish xyz by these dates. We feel these dates are realistic compared to our other dates because of reasons xyz.

    The impact on timelines is the following (delays) (new timelines).

    Information will be released on the following schedule.

    Thanks



    This suggestion seems absolutely reasonable and polite to me.

    Can you guess what happened? They downvoted him lol

    True but if I threw away the money some of those people did to maybe play by the time they are collecting social security, I would probably downvote my own mother because bitter would be understatement. 

    Rational posts will get you nowhere.
    Well clearly then it's time for me to head over there and create some irrational posts.

    Hold my beer, I've got this.

    :D
    If you do wade into the crap over there feel free to copy and paste his 3 Major Milestones for 2018 from his 2018 State Of Elyria post and the results as of 2019 which is 0 for 3.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,492
    What's the difference in Chris Roberts and Caspian?

    One man oversells products based on his dreams, the other just sells his dreams.
  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Member EpicPosts: 4,602
    Lokero said:
    What's the difference in Chris Roberts and Caspian?

    One man oversells products based on his dreams, the other just sells his dreams.
    You can play Roberts game would be an important one.  How well it runs or how much fun it is in this case is not relavant because at least there is something.  SC also has free fly weekends so you do not even need to back to try it out.
    KyleranUngoodtweedledumb99
  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,292
    Lokero said:
    What's the difference in Chris Roberts and Caspian?

    One man oversells products based on his dreams, the other just sells his dreams.
    The important thing. The thing I hope all developers remember. That NDA isn't forever. Inevitably your dream is gonna launch into reality and you will be judged by what is, not what you claim will be. 
    MadFrenchieGdemamiKyleranOzmodantweedledumb99
    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,630
    TimEisen said:
    Scot said:
    I am not sure we should have articles about indie games from those who back them. Is it possible to detach yourself from the money you have put in? Either hoping for success in the early days or despairing you will ever see a game as the years go by.

    Also I think it might be good for the health of those who write gaming articles not to be put in this position, life has enough drama without buying into it. :)
    Humans are capable of far greater mental abilities than having to detach themselves from the money they put into something. Objectivity isn't hard, you just turn off your emotions and look at the facts alone. You write your piece directly referencing them and draw conclusions based upon them. 

    But your question is flawed in one major way, you assume I wasn't hired as a backer, to write about games from that point of view. You see I've never hidden which games I backed, despite the fact I easily could have. I've been open about them because I write from the perspective of an embedded reporter observing the crowd funded game development as it transpires. 

    Now, would I review a game I covered for several years while embedded? Yes, BUT, I would note at the top of the review my past experiences and relationship with the game which should be taken into account.

    Looking at how small our niche is, it would be hard to find a writer that didn't have some exposure to a game. If you wanted a truly unobjective review I suppose you would have to grab a non gamer, make them play a game, then have them write up their review. Maybe grab a gamer that has never played a MMORPG? 

    Do I want all MMORPGs to do well? Yes. Would that sway my opinion on a review of a finished product? Possibly but I would take all possible steps to be fact based, not emotion based. This world needs more facts. 
    Thanks for addressing this, but I think you are dancing around the point. The fact you are upfront about your monetary investment is to be commended but that does not mean that anyone who does so is impartial. Also the idea that "objectivity isn't hard" runs counter to everything I have seen in my life from others and indeed sometimes myself, so forgive me if I put a very big question mark over that.

    Naturally you thought I was questioning your judgment here, but actually I don't know how much this influenced you. I should have been clearer that my point was a more general one, would it not be a good idea if the people writing such articles did not have money in them?

    Also the extrapolations from what I have said are rather running wild. Hopefully you can see how the idea that what I have said leads us to only having writers who have not played a MMORPG before to review such games, is rather out there?

    So to be clear, I see no issue if writers of such reviews love MMORPG's, if they might have met the developers and so on. It is purely the psychological investment in something that putting money in creates that concerns me.

    So in the end do I discount what you have said? No of course not, I have found your opinions on gaming to be elucidating. I just don't think gaming journalists should be put in this position.
    TimEisenGdemamiMadFrenchie

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,958
    Scot said:
    TimEisen said:
    Scot said:
    I am not sure we should have articles about indie games from those who back them. Is it possible to detach yourself from the money you have put in? Either hoping for success in the early days or despairing you will ever see a game as the years go by.

    Also I think it might be good for the health of those who write gaming articles not to be put in this position, life has enough drama without buying into it. :)
    Humans are capable of far greater mental abilities than having to detach themselves from the money they put into something. Objectivity isn't hard, you just turn off your emotions and look at the facts alone. You write your piece directly referencing them and draw conclusions based upon them. 

    But your question is flawed in one major way, you assume I wasn't hired as a backer, to write about games from that point of view. You see I've never hidden which games I backed, despite the fact I easily could have. I've been open about them because I write from the perspective of an embedded reporter observing the crowd funded game development as it transpires. 

    Now, would I review a game I covered for several years while embedded? Yes, BUT, I would note at the top of the review my past experiences and relationship with the game which should be taken into account.

    Looking at how small our niche is, it would be hard to find a writer that didn't have some exposure to a game. If you wanted a truly unobjective review I suppose you would have to grab a non gamer, make them play a game, then have them write up their review. Maybe grab a gamer that has never played a MMORPG? 

    Do I want all MMORPGs to do well? Yes. Would that sway my opinion on a review of a finished product? Possibly but I would take all possible steps to be fact based, not emotion based. This world needs more facts. 
    Thanks for addressing this, but I think you are dancing around the point. The fact you are upfront about your monetary investment is to be commended but that does not mean that anyone who does so is impartial. Also the idea that "objectivity isn't hard" runs counter to everything I have seen in my life from others and indeed sometimes myself, so forgive me if I put a very big question mark over that.

    Naturally you thought I was questioning your judgment here, but actually I don't know how much this influenced you. I should have been clearer that my point was a more general one, would it not be a good idea if the people writing such articles did not have money in them?

    Also the extrapolations from what I have said are rather running wild. Hopefully you can see how the idea that what I have said leads us to only having writers who have not played a MMORPG before to review such games, is rather out there?

    So to be clear, I see no issue if writers of such reviews love MMORPG's, if they might have met the developers and so on. It is purely the psychological investment in something that putting money in creates that concerns me.

    So in the end do I discount what you have said? No of course not, I have found your opinions on gaming to be elucidating. I just don't think gaming journalists should be put in this position.
    Perhaps you should consider this:

    There is no game.  No gameplay to review.  What he in essence is writing about is his experience as a person who Crowdfunded the game.  It’s a review of the journey.  It’s the difference between a travel journalist live blogging about his trip as it happens and someone else making a post about the destination based on pictures and info from other people.


    ScotTimEisenMadFrenchietweedledumb99

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Scot said:
    TimEisen said:
    Scot said:
    I am not sure we should have articles about indie games from those who back them. Is it possible to detach yourself from the money you have put in? Either hoping for success in the early days or despairing you will ever see a game as the years go by.

    Also I think it might be good for the health of those who write gaming articles not to be put in this position, life has enough drama without buying into it. :)
    Humans are capable of far greater mental abilities than having to detach themselves from the money they put into something. Objectivity isn't hard, you just turn off your emotions and look at the facts alone. You write your piece directly referencing them and draw conclusions based upon them. 

    But your question is flawed in one major way, you assume I wasn't hired as a backer, to write about games from that point of view. You see I've never hidden which games I backed, despite the fact I easily could have. I've been open about them because I write from the perspective of an embedded reporter observing the crowd funded game development as it transpires. 

    Now, would I review a game I covered for several years while embedded? Yes, BUT, I would note at the top of the review my past experiences and relationship with the game which should be taken into account.

    Looking at how small our niche is, it would be hard to find a writer that didn't have some exposure to a game. If you wanted a truly unobjective review I suppose you would have to grab a non gamer, make them play a game, then have them write up their review. Maybe grab a gamer that has never played a MMORPG? 

    Do I want all MMORPGs to do well? Yes. Would that sway my opinion on a review of a finished product? Possibly but I would take all possible steps to be fact based, not emotion based. This world needs more facts. 
    Thanks for addressing this, but I think you are dancing around the point. The fact you are upfront about your monetary investment is to be commended but that does not mean that anyone who does so is impartial. Also the idea that "objectivity isn't hard" runs counter to everything I have seen in my life from others and indeed sometimes myself, so forgive me if I put a very big question mark over that.

    Naturally you thought I was questioning your judgment here, but actually I don't know how much this influenced you. I should have been clearer that my point was a more general one, would it not be a good idea if the people writing such articles did not have money in them?

    Also the extrapolations from what I have said are rather running wild. Hopefully you can see how the idea that what I have said leads us to only having writers who have not played a MMORPG before to review such games, is rather out there?

    So to be clear, I see no issue if writers of such reviews love MMORPG's, if they might have met the developers and so on. It is purely the psychological investment in something that putting money in creates that concerns me.

    So in the end do I discount what you have said? No of course not, I have found your opinions on gaming to be elucidating. I just don't think gaming journalists should be put in this position.
    Perhaps you should consider this:

    There is no game.  No gameplay to review.  What he in essence is writing about is his experience as a person who Crowdfunded the game.  It’s a review of the journey.  It’s the difference between a travel journalist live blogging about his trip as it happens and someone else making a post about the destination based on pictures and info from other people.


    Hell, its not even that. Its the difference between a travel journalist live blogging about his trip as it happens and someone else making a post about a not yet created destination based on promises and concept pictures and info from other people whom might not be trustworthy at all.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    ScotYashaXTimEisenUngood
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,630

    Perhaps you should consider this:

    There is no game.  No gameplay to review.  What he in essence is writing about is his experience as a person who Crowdfunded the game.  It’s a review of the journey.  It’s the difference between a travel journalist live blogging about his trip as it happens and someone else making a post about the destination based on pictures and info from other people.


    Well you have a point there, but I do think it is blurred by articles before reviews effectively being reviews what with early access and spending before EA even begins. So yes, they certainly are a travelogue but they are no doubt being used to make decisions on purchases.

    The fact we see them voicing concerns is also evidence that we are getting something of a balanced view, I am not suggesting that we have an epidemic of impartiality as a result of this. But it has to raise concerns, it seems to me when you are that close how do you properly step back?

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,292
    edited January 18
    Scot said:
    Thanks for addressing this, but I think you are dancing around the point. The fact you are upfront about your monetary investment is to be commended but that does not mean that anyone who does so is impartial. Also the idea that "objectivity isn't hard" runs counter to everything I have seen in my life from others and indeed sometimes myself, so forgive me if I put a very big question mark over that.

    Naturally you thought I was questioning your judgment here, but actually I don't know how much this influenced you. I should have been clearer that my point was a more general one, would it not be a good idea if the people writing such articles did not have money in them?

    Also the extrapolations from what I have said are rather running wild. Hopefully you can see how the idea that what I have said leads us to only having writers who have not played a MMORPG before to review such games, is rather out there?

    So to be clear, I see no issue if writers of such reviews love MMORPG's, if they might have met the developers and so on. It is purely the psychological investment in something that putting money in creates that concerns me.

    So in the end do I discount what you have said? No of course not, I have found your opinions on gaming to be elucidating. I just don't think gaming journalists should be put in this position.
    I see what you are saying more clearly now. I can't speak for other writers, and in many cases, based on the writer's history I would agree with you. As a fan, they way I take my news is to research the writers and I only trust the ones that have shown me the ability to place facts before emotions. In my life experience I'd say it depends on the individual. Personally I try hard to live a fact based life. I've joked that I love my water jug. I carry it everywhere. I'd promote the hell out of the thing if they asked me to because its the best one I've ever had, and if a scientific study came out showing the thing is a hazard, I'd toss it out without thinking about it lol. 

    In general, I agree with you. In general it makes me nervous and uncomfortable if I'm reading work from people emotionally or financially invested in the thing I am reading about. The conclusion I reach is that writing/streaming/news etc is only as good as it's author and the set of facts or primary sources they utilize. At the end of the day I take it upon myself to decide if this author is someone worth my time, worth trusting, or another talking head propagandist selling me BS like global warming is a myth and the earth is flat hah. 

    What keeps me up at night, and something worth considering, is that I'm in the minority. Its rare that a game writer says what they are invested in. We are in an era where steamers literally sell their stream to studios. I've heard cases of 70k to stream a game. I don't know if it's flat out stated the streamer will put it over and hype it up or call it like they see it, but if I had 70k on the line I can tell you I do not believe I could stay honest! Even if I tried, that amount is life changing in ways that would supersede my judgement, aware or not. Its odd to me that stream fans accept this but when it coms to writing, if our site approached a studio and offered to sell them a great review, it would be a huge scandal.

    I feel fans need to realize the streamers should be held to the same standards as the written media. That would substantially change how streams look though, for one the would be on old PC's, sitting in generic office chairs, without the shelves of freebies behind them lol. I don't have any sort of grudge against streamers, I just hope they will eventually be held to higher standards of integrity the way writers are. 

    Fortunately the amounts involved with writing about MMORPGs and even the amounts I spent on the games I backed, are amounts I was, at least at the time, comfortable parting with. Maybe there is a price on honesty? What it is I don't know. 70k, 30k, 1k? I haven't put even a thousand into any game but would that make me want it to succeed? I guess I cant say for sure but I'd like to believe the person I am wouldn't give a hot damn. 
    GdemamiMadFrenchieTorval
    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,292
    lahnmir said:
    Perhaps you should consider this:

    There is no game.  No gameplay to review.  What he in essence is writing about is his experience as a person who Crowdfunded the game.  It’s a review of the journey.  It’s the difference between a travel journalist live blogging about his trip as it happens and someone else making a post about the destination based on pictures and info from other people.


    Hell, its not even that. Its the difference between a travel journalist live blogging about his trip as it happens and someone else making a post about a not yet created destination based on promises and concept pictures and info from other people whom might not be trustworthy at all.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    I loled pretty hard when I read this. That might be my next move! I'll be the first Instagram "world traveler" that books trips years in advance to resorts not yet built then covers the mundane day to day until I finally go to the airport. 
    MadFrenchieUngoodTorvallahnmir
    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,190
    I'm just waiting until Tim realizes that the COE poster basically plagiarized him.  It was a copy & paste of the entire article, instead of a link, with absolutely no credit to Tim (through 4 pages, anyway).  There are even several posters that seem to think the cut&paste member was the author of the original article.

    Let's see how well SBS disciplines its membership in the face of a legal violation.  Heck, even MMORPG.com might have a valid complaint.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,713
    Mendel said:
    I'm just waiting until Tim realizes that the COE poster basically plagiarized him.  It was a copy & paste of the entire article, instead of a link, with absolutely no credit to Tim (through 4 pages, anyway).  There are even several posters that seem to think the cut&paste member was the author of the original article.

    Let's see how well SBS disciplines its membership in the face of a legal violation.  Heck, even MMORPG.com might have a valid complaint.



    Uhm no..

    As you can see from the article on the mmorpg.com below I am not alone who thinks the same way.

    Read more at https://www.mmorpg.com/chronicles-of-elyria/columns/chronicles-of-elyria-wherefore-art-thou-1000013349#b8JHmKVpAeCeevIG.99
    Gdemamitweedledumb99
    Harbinger of Fools
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,626
    edited January 18
    Sovrath said:
    Iselin said:
    kjempff said:
    kjempff said:

    Then there is the money issue. Afaik they were always upfront about the crowdfunding was to get the project started (correct me if you know otherwise), and that it would need outside investors to "finish" the project. 
    For the record they never mentioned this on their Kickstarter main page.As a matter of fact they had stretch goals like adding Mounted Combat etc...

    Also related:
    Massively OP: The sticking points seem to be the Kickstarter FAQ line that states, “The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project” and the fact that COE’s Kickstarter verbiage itself doesn’t appear to mention that the $900K sought wasn’t the full amount (it’s buried in the 8000+ comments)

    He also said $1.2M gets a core game and Alpha 1 yet here we sit within over $5M raised and not there yet.

    He also said “it’s our intention that all of it be covered by investors, or at least, not players.“ Which obviously didn’t happen.

    He also said that closing refunds at the same time they announced this was and I quote “ I want to say it was a complete coincidence that we announced our refund policy going forward in the same update where we evidently made people aware we’re still looking for money from investors, etc.”

    https://massivelyop.com/2016/09/28/interview-chronicles-of-elyrias-jeromy-walsh-on-post-kickstarter-funding/


    So yeah... I kind of disagree that they were even close to upfront.

    Thanks. I haven't been following that closely, so you are probably correct.
    Though, "completing" a project does not necessarily mean the final product, it could mean a vertical slice which is a game dev term defining a working game showing of a core concept - Again I have not followed CoE closely, so I don't know the wording used in the ks or if that core game has been delivered to backers or is close to.

    On a side note, I find the whole refund thing and backers entitlement on a crowdfunded game to be a misunderstanding. If you crowdfunded something you did not buy anything, you either donated or invested and at that point the money is no longer yours. The receiver is only required to spend that money as advertised and to the best of their ability, but there is no guarantee of success implied not for the entire project neither for completion of stretch goals. It is an investment, not a purchase.



    It's not an investment, either.
    But it should be. Crowdfunding where backers get a piece of the action, a % share, would make a lot of sense as shared risk with possible rewards. 

    What we have instead is panhandling elevated to an art form... no scratch that, it has much more in common with fringe religions than art :)
    But it is. The word investment can be used in other ways and is often used to mean getting an advantage, a positive outcome, a desired effect.

    That's what is meant by this type of investment. It's not always to get back a financial result.


    It's an investment in the same way putting gas in my car is an "investment" into my future personal mobility.
    I can only say you have the wrong idea of what investment means. Buying gas is a purchase of goods, so is buying a printer or even a service. An investment means that you are investing in a possible outcome (not a guaranteed outcome), which traditionally is a return as more money than you put in, but it can also be return of goods or in this case a game. As opposed to a purchase, an investment does not guarantee to succeed in a return ... that is the whole point and why a ks is an investment and not a purchase, otherwise it would be a loan or a payment up front.. you can also read ks view on refunds and whether they consider backing as a purchase (spoiler they don't, although to be fair they don't call it investment, that is just something I concluded because it is everything that define an investment). 
    Ozmodan
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    kjempff said:
    Sovrath said:
    Iselin said:
    kjempff said:
    kjempff said:

    Then there is the money issue. Afaik they were always upfront about the crowdfunding was to get the project started (correct me if you know otherwise), and that it would need outside investors to "finish" the project. 
    For the record they never mentioned this on their Kickstarter main page.As a matter of fact they had stretch goals like adding Mounted Combat etc...

    Also related:
    Massively OP: The sticking points seem to be the Kickstarter FAQ line that states, “The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project” and the fact that COE’s Kickstarter verbiage itself doesn’t appear to mention that the $900K sought wasn’t the full amount (it’s buried in the 8000+ comments)

    He also said $1.2M gets a core game and Alpha 1 yet here we sit within over $5M raised and not there yet.

    He also said “it’s our intention that all of it be covered by investors, or at least, not players.“ Which obviously didn’t happen.

    He also said that closing refunds at the same time they announced this was and I quote “ I want to say it was a complete coincidence that we announced our refund policy going forward in the same update where we evidently made people aware we’re still looking for money from investors, etc.”

    https://massivelyop.com/2016/09/28/interview-chronicles-of-elyrias-jeromy-walsh-on-post-kickstarter-funding/


    So yeah... I kind of disagree that they were even close to upfront.

    Thanks. I haven't been following that closely, so you are probably correct.
    Though, "completing" a project does not necessarily mean the final product, it could mean a vertical slice which is a game dev term defining a working game showing of a core concept - Again I have not followed CoE closely, so I don't know the wording used in the ks or if that core game has been delivered to backers or is close to.

    On a side note, I find the whole refund thing and backers entitlement on a crowdfunded game to be a misunderstanding. If you crowdfunded something you did not buy anything, you either donated or invested and at that point the money is no longer yours. The receiver is only required to spend that money as advertised and to the best of their ability, but there is no guarantee of success implied not for the entire project neither for completion of stretch goals. It is an investment, not a purchase.



    It's not an investment, either.
    But it should be. Crowdfunding where backers get a piece of the action, a % share, would make a lot of sense as shared risk with possible rewards. 

    What we have instead is panhandling elevated to an art form... no scratch that, it has much more in common with fringe religions than art :)
    But it is. The word investment can be used in other ways and is often used to mean getting an advantage, a positive outcome, a desired effect.

    That's what is meant by this type of investment. It's not always to get back a financial result.


    It's an investment in the same way putting gas in my car is an "investment" into my future personal mobility.
    I can only say you have the wrong idea of what investment means. Buying gas is a purchase of goods, so is buying a printer or even a game. An investment means that you are investing in a possible outcome (not a guaranteed outcome), which traditionally is a return as more money than you put in, but it can also be return of goods or in this case a game. As opposed to a purchase, an investment does not guarantee to succeed in a return ... that is the whole point and why a ks is an investment and not a purchase, otherwise it would be a loan or a payment up front.. you can also read ks view on refunds and whether they consider backing as a purchase (spoiler they don't). 
    They can consider it or not.  Doesn't change the fact that these folks aren't just throwing money at the idea, these pledges always include game copies, sub time, or other in-game items.  Those aren't really intangibles; they're very clearly laid out.

    Also, go ahead and check the crowdfunding buttons on these project websites.  "Add to cart," and "Buy" are the words used.  Remind me again: is "buying" something viewed the same as "investing" in something?  Where else do you take an investment and "add to cart"?
    GdemamiOzmodan

    image
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,630
    TimEisen said:

    I see what you are saying more clearly now. I can't speak for other writers, and in many cases, based on the writer's history I would agree with you. As a fan, they way I take my news is to research the writers and I only trust the ones that have shown me the ability to place facts before emotions. In my life experience I'd say it depends on the individual. Personally I try hard to live a fact based life. I've joked that I love my water jug. I carry it everywhere. I'd promote the hell out of the thing if they asked me to because its the best one I've ever had, and if a scientific study came out showing the thing is a hazard, I'd toss it out without thinking about it lol. 

    In general, I agree with you. In general it makes me nervous and uncomfortable if I'm reading work from people emotionally or financially invested in the thing I am reading about. The conclusion I reach is that writing/streaming/news etc is only as good as it's author and the set of facts or primary sources they utilize. At the end of the day I take it upon myself to decide if this author is someone worth my time, worth trusting, or another talking head propagandist selling me BS like global warming is a myth and the earth is flat hah. 

    What keeps me up at night, and something worth considering, is that I'm in the minority. Its rare that a game writer says what they are invested in. We are in an era where steamers literally sell their stream to studios. I've heard cases of 70k to stream a game. I don't know if it's flat out stated the streamer will put it over and hype it up or call it like they see it, but if I had 70k on the line I can tell you I do not believe I could stay honest! Even if I tried, that amount is life changing in ways that would supersede my judgement, aware or not. Its odd to me that stream fans accept this but when it coms to writing, if our site approached a studio and offered to sell them a great review, it would be a huge scandal.

    I feel fans need to realize the streamers should be held to the same standards as the written media. That would substantially change how streams look though, for one the would be on old PC's, sitting in generic office chairs, without the shelves of freebies behind them lol. I don't have any sort of grudge against streamers, I just hope they will eventually be held to higher standards of integrity the way writers are. 

    Fortunately the amounts involved with writing about MMORPGs and even the amounts I spent on the games I backed, are amounts I was, at least at the time, comfortable parting with. Maybe there is a price on honesty? What it is I don't know. 70k, 30k, 1k? I haven't put even a thousand into any game but would that make me want it to succeed? I guess I cant say for sure but I'd like to believe the person I am wouldn't give a hot damn. 
    Of the articles on here where someone has said they paid in at an early stage I have never thought, oh you can see how this has influenced him. That said I don't read many development articles or threads.

    I am not sure that streaming will ever be brought into line with the standards I expect from gaming journalists, if it is where the money is it is here to stay, something we have seen so many times before in different ways in gaming.

    I regard a site like this as a bulwark against the nonsense we have seen creeping in over the years, so am I overly protective of "standards"? Yes, but I think we have to be, the whole concept of a gaming ethos which grew up in the nineties has been subverted or just done away with.

    Anyway if you get offered 70k for your next article remember not to buy a new sportscar, its always a bit of a give away. :)
    TimEisenGdemamiMendel

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

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    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,958


    Also, go ahead and check the crowdfunding buttons on these project websites.  "Add to cart," and "Buy" are the words used.  Remind me again: is "buying" something viewed the same as "investing" in something?  Where else do you take an investment and "add to cart"?
    You mean like on CoE's store page?


    OzmodanMadFrenchie

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,292


    Also, go ahead and check the crowdfunding buttons on these project websites.  "Add to cart," and "Buy" are the words used.  Remind me again: is "buying" something viewed the same as "investing" in something?  Where else do you take an investment and "add to cart"?
    You mean like on CoE's store page?


    They don't even make art for half of it! I mean...saving some cash I guess. Or do the finished items resemble silhouettes? 

    Mendel said:
    I'm just waiting until Tim realizes that the COE poster basically plagiarized him.  It was a copy & paste of the entire article, instead of a link, with absolutely no credit to Tim (through 4 pages, anyway).  There are even several posters that seem to think the cut&paste member was the author of the original article.

    Let's see how well SBS disciplines its membership in the face of a legal violation.  Heck, even MMORPG.com might have a valid complaint.



    Man they didn't even link me? How do they know the poster didn't change my words? How do they know it even exists? I hope they had the insights to come here to confirm it was the legit version. 

    What I fail to understand is, if the game is doing so well behind that $1,000 paywall why wouldn't they flaunt it? If its that far along it would only serve to get them more subscribers? At the least they could allow a legit MMO site to do a preview which again gets them more money by proxy.

    I've backed enough of these to know the studios that have something decent behind that NDA flaunt it. They can barely contain themselves. They are proud, excited, and doing so makes them more fans and from those fans they get more dollars. The studios that don't give any insights, the ones that use the unknown as their crutch and hide behind the NDA do it for a reason. 
    GdemamiKyleranWellspringMadFrenchieScot
    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,475
    I don't see how anyone can say they are providing updates.  I know several people that have invested in this game and all of them are at the point where they do not think it will ever release.   They were big proponents of the game for quite some time too.   

    What I find really humorous, IF the game ever releases with at least the perma death feature implemented, it will only take the first cycle of lost characters to deter most of the player base.  Just a brain dead mechanic that few will tolerate.  Their entire design was ludicrous from the start. 
    GdemamiTimEisenMadFrenchieScot
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