I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
I don't see how Apocalypse can replace the actual MMO that people are fretting about; I do see however possible delays due to unforeseen obstacles along the MMO production path.
Delays are pretty much guaranteed.
I personally have little interest in AoC: Apocalypse, but... I imagine they're looking for a way to bring in more money. So, I'm fine with it.
Would people really rather have them selling kingdoms for RL money? Or a bunch of overpowered ships the rest will spend a year grinding for? *looks at the other Kickstarter MMO's out there*
As a business... if the BR takes off and makes cash would you ignore it and turn back to the MMORPG or would you do what Epic did with Fortnite and put the old game on maintenance mode while focusing on the BR cash cow
These guys said said they had a $30M budget and anything raised from Crowdfunding was just for extras. So unless they lied, it shouldn’t be a question of selling Kingdoms/Spaceships or a BattleRoyale detour. If what they said was true they should already have enough money to fund the MMORPG. Right? Or am I missing something?
It's a crowdfunding game... $30M should've already been a red flag. In all likelihood they are suffering the same problems all the others are. Nowhere near enough money to finish the whole thing.
As for your question, that's entirely possible. I'd hope not, but... it's a realistic outcome. I have no money invested in any of the crowdfunding titles, so aside from a disappointment of my tempered expectations... I'm not losing anything either way.
Regardless, it's beyond our control either way.
If I recall properly, It was stated that they already had the $30M because Stephen got so rich from his MLM stuff and selling Xango juice and I think even real estate. So this was not to be a true Crowdfunded game but a self backed one with the Crowdfunding just for extras.
Why do none of the fans question this? Or am I mistaken? Pretty sure I remember properly.
@jahlon seems to be a “do what you say you would” kind of guy from his vids. I’d love to see him actually press Stephen on this. I can dig up the old interviews if it would help.
As I recall Steven made a qualifier post KSer that he had "access" to $30 million in funding, not that he specifically had $30M in "available" funds nor that he was putting up this entire amount himself.
In response I think some folks floated stories around about how his mother was the one who really made big money from the MLM business, and he was more of just a lieutenant in the organization.
As always, Steven's stories always slide around the truth, without anyone really being able to validate his claims and unsubstantiated urban legends cropping up as facts in many cases.
I think that Steven said during an interview that he's committed to funding the project with $30M, and then counted on people to misunderstand that.
Saying that you're committed to doing something doesn't really create any legal obligation because you're allowed to decide that you aren't committed any more.
I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
And because of that, Crowfall is also the only one I've backed. I'm much more interested in AoC's node based PvE than anything Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, or (laughs) Chronicles of Elyria has to offer, but Crowfall has the highest chance of actually delivering what was promised.
Looking fantastic. As a tester and someone very involved with the development process, I can say for sure the progress to Alpha1 phase (mmo testing) is coming along very nicely.
A few hiccups on the way but its getting there.
Still no evidence of work being done on Node evolution, the one unique feature of which might have set Ashes of "Cremation" apart from others.
MMORPG releasing by the end of 2019? I think we can set that notion firmly aside and start looking at late 2020 or beyond.
"Nodes
Ashes of Creation is a unique take on the MMO experience. Our world structure is dynamic and built to react to the actions of our players.
Cities will rise and fall, their populations based on the history of the world as the players create it. Quests will unlock as these populations gather, their needs grow, and secrets are unlocked.
As the world’s NPC structure is established in real time, players will have the ability to destroy what they’ve created, paving the way for new development, new populations, and real change.
Political strife and intrigue will play a very real role in the structure of your world. "
Been saying the bolded for a while now. Ashes (if the mmo ever releases) will be no more "revolutionary" than me deciding to drink my coffee with some creamer instead of black.
On the money situation, I did press Steven on this. You'll see a link to my money interview a little bit down.
I have been investigating the money since 18 October 2018 when in a meeting with the Content Creators they mentioned they might monetize the Battle Royale product. Here is what I found:
From the Kickstarter:
"We’ve got private backing that will allow us to produce a core viable product."
" One the development of a core viable product, absolutely I’m 100% funding. That’s already there. That’s scheduled out. The hiring of additional team members in order to encompass that development time is paid for."
If you look up who launched the kickstarter it was Intrepid as a company, so of course the company has private funding in the form of their CEO Steven Sharif.
Now, is there a soundbite or quote that says he has a pile of $28,000,000 just sitting around ready to throw into the company?
--- No this soundbite does not exist there is never a direct soundbite of Steven saying that he has that much just sitting around. However, a cursory look into the situation, the assets that we know he owns (homes, cars, etc) leaves little doubt that he has the amount of disposable income that he claims he does.
Remember he's on the record as already putting in $2M and its pretty fair to say what we have seen reflects at LEAST this amount of money. I mean just look at the offices, the desks, the size of the staff, the booth they use at the trade shows, the gear they bring to the trade shows. While yes, none of this stuff "really matters" for the development of the MMORPG if you will, it is at the very least proof that some serious money has been dropped into the studio.
Soundbite that Steven has already invested $2,000,000:
But does that matter? No, I don't think so. I think at this point, they are producing enough "stuff" that its pretty clear they have money. Can I do a monetary breakdown to show they have produced more than $3.2M worth of Kickstarter funding "stuff" plus the $2M seed money from Steven, plus the Summber backer, plus the web page sales. No, of course not. I don't have access to the entire inventory of things they've done to say "Yes, this looks like X$M worth of stuff"
While you may not trust Steven, remember some of the people who work at Intrepid are well known names from the industry. Guys like Michael Bacon and Jason Crawford could have gone pretty much anywhere, they decided to go to Intrepid. Margaret Krohn the new Community Marketing Lead left a job at NCSoft to come work for Intrepid.
Now, on the topic of the Kickstarter. In retrospect, if they were fully funded to the level they said they were, they would have been better served spending all of 2017 just developing the game. Not going to trade shows, not doing a kickstarter nothing. Showing up at Kickstarter in May of 2018 with Alpha Zero flushed out as a playable demo for people that would have exploded WAY more than $3.2M. But, the past is the past.
And on a final note, the entire "MLM" thing people constantly bring up, people have to remember MLMs are common place all over the country, they just take various shapes and sizes, and they are perfectly legal. I'm not sure why people are caught up on this particular sales concept as being inherently morally wrong.
@jahlon ; Thanks for that. My point around the money is that if they really do have $30M in secured funding and that is all they need for the core product and all the extra Kickstarter/customer money is just extra... then why is there a BR game with a cash shop?
If they have enough money ($30M + Kickstarter and Store cash) then there should be no need to put up a cash shop BattleRoyale game to raise cash... right?
As for MLM... it's often sketchy and when combined with sketchy stuff like Xango Juice... and then taken to a platform ripe for exploitation like Crowdfunded Videogames with no oversite... it merits at least being a bit skeptical IMHO. So given that background, when a guy says he already has $30M lined up for his game and it's all he needs in order to develop the core game... then the first thing produced is a cash shop BattleRoyale which came out of left field... yes... I think that brings a lot of questions.
As for the people hired, I have no problem with that. But please do keep in mind that many are with Intrepid because SOE went belly up and they were in SanDiego. Not the only reason for sure, but lets be honest, if the studio was in Virginia I do not think they would have many of the same people. It's not like they left a cushy job with Google. They came from a company that was going out of business and looking for a home. Good for them that they found a landing spot though.
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I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early. There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
I think the accountability comes in when we discuss refund policies. CU allows refunds. That, to me... is the ultimate accountability. Not sure if CF does and pretty sure Ashes doesn’t.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early. There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
Why do you accept that those are the only choices? It’s like saying I’d rather have a finger cut off than my whole arm... Well yeah... but I hope there’s another option beyond those 2.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
Accountability here should be coming from backers leaving the project to dry up once it becomes clear they're not making the progress they claimed they would and/or have pivoted parts of their team/work to other projects not enumerated in the crowdfunding campaign.
But sunk cost fallacy and confirmation bias. "Software development is hard, so no need to hold them accountable for missed deadlines," is literally a mantra among some on this very site. Consumers weren't and never were in a position to enter crowdfunding transactions on a level playing field with the studios tempting them with buzzwords and beyond-ambitious timelines. And now we see why: they want the end product too hard to see the project objectively.
the irritating thing I have posted about ad nauseum about this game on Krojak's youtube videos is that this game looks like its headed in the battle royale direction.
That's all we see. We have seen zero class diversification, zero mmo diversification, and zero open world dungeon/quest elements.
The fact that this game has gained a following based on the battle royale aspect is disturbing, and investors nad developers may lean that way and scrap the mmo portion based on the BR interest.
Do we all remember EQnext?
What was their mistake?
1) resources poured into Landmark 2) Landmark PVP eneabled--- which converted Landmark into a battle royale.
And so far-- all indicators are this game is headed in that direction.
I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
I have consistently said that is what is wrong with the crowdfunding is they are accountable to no one. Yes both of those games are late to market and I have less forgiveness towards Jacobs because he knew better. My point was more that at least I can see what is going on with the development of those games and if I had backed them then I could make an educated decision on if I should jump ship and get a refund or wait it out.
What do we really know about AoC development on the MMO front? Exactly! Not a thing other than they say it is being worked on.
They may be without accountability but transparency can buy short term forgiveness if it makes sense. My thought is all these crowdfunded project managers had zero idea what they were signing up for. They produced something that sounded great on paper and here we are. Sure there have been a couple of games made and they were good but also single player.
Jacobs is only one I say does not get a pass of these examples because he had done it twice before and yet he is about 6 yrs late to the game.
Hey... Todd Coleman and Gordon Walton have as much if not more experience than MJ (Walton definitely...)
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
I have consistently said that is what is wrong with the crowdfunding is they are accountable to no one. Yes both of those games are late to market and I have less forgiveness towards Jacobs because he knew better. My point was more that at least I can see what is going on with the development of those games and if I had backed them then I could make an educated decision on if I should jump ship and get a refund or wait it out.
What do we really know about AoC development on the MMO front? Exactly! Not a thing other than they say it is being worked on.
They may be without accountability but transparency can buy short term forgiveness if it makes sense. My thought is all these crowdfunded project managers had zero idea what they were signing up for. They produced something that sounded great on paper and here we are. Sure there have been a couple of games made and they were good but also single player.
Jacobs is only one I say does not get a pass of these examples because he had done it twice before and yet he is about 6 yrs late to the game.
Hey... Todd Coleman and Gordon Walton have as much if not more experience than MJ (Walton definitely...)
Guess I could have elaborated more on that point but you are correct.
My thoughts are that they are attempting something different and much deeper and complex than what Jacobs is doing. Jacobs should have the whole RvR thing under his belt by now. And to add to that on its surface CU does not seem to be overly deep and I would even call it shallow. Nothing that should have taken this long but my guess is they have more technical issues than they do design issues. That is just a guess as I am not carefully following CU because as I said it seems quiet shallow.
The difference is in the engine which is what is taking so long. As someone else posted above, MJ and CU have hinged their hat on MASSIVE RvR battles. To make this happen they had to build their own engine. If it works they will have made a great achievement. If it fails, it will have been an utter waste of time. We shall see.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early. There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
Why do you accept that those are the only choices? It’s like saying I’d rather have a finger cut off than my whole arm... Well yeah... but I hope there’s another option beyond those 2.
Because that's not how reality works. Just because you want something to be the best game ever *and* be released in 1 year from the date it's announced doesn't mean it's going to happen.
The only choices are wait longer for a better game or rush them into releasing a steaming pile.
What would you suggest people do? Storm their offices on midnight of the day they are overdue? Have everyone do a chargeback on that day and never see the game come out at all?
I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early. There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
Why do you accept that those are the only choices? It’s like saying I’d rather have a finger cut off than my whole arm... Well yeah... but I hope there’s another option beyond those 2.
Because that's not how reality works. Just because you want something to be the best game ever *and* be released in 1 year from the date it's announced doesn't mean it's going to happen.
The only choices are wait longer for a better game or rush them into releasing a steaming pile.
What would you suggest people do? Storm their offices on midnight of the day they are overdue? Have everyone do a chargeback on that day and never see the game come out at all?
No.. I would actually suggest holding people accountable for what they sell which includes roughly the time they sold it for delivery. Not quite sure why that is such a radical idea.
Delays happen? Sure... build that into your planned ETA. Give me an ETA of 18 months and then 48 months later you are still in Alpha? Fuck no!
By the way that is EXACTLY how reality works outside of this bizzaro crowdfunded game world we have allowed to exist. Dekay all you want, and I might even cheer your decision as long as you offer the customer the ability to refund. Don't expect the customer to pay the price for your ineptitude.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early. There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
Why do you accept that those are the only choices? It’s like saying I’d rather have a finger cut off than my whole arm... Well yeah... but I hope there’s another option beyond those 2.
Because that's not how reality works. Just because you want something to be the best game ever *and* be released in 1 year from the date it's announced doesn't mean it's going to happen.
The only choices are wait longer for a better game or rush them into releasing a steaming pile.
What would you suggest people do? Storm their offices on midnight of the day they are overdue? Have everyone do a chargeback on that day and never see the game come out at all?
No, do what many pubs would; you cut the losses to prevent further wasted resources. No chargebacks; backers have to be willing to accept that just because they threw $60, 100, or even $1000 dollars on a project, that will not guarantee the project is viable or will be successful. Most say they are okay with this idea, but will then fight tooth and nail to defend the project and continue supporting it because, in the end, they don't really give a shit how the developers fund the game (ethical or not) once they've given some of their own cash. They want the game, damn it, and any further means to that end is justified (by their own admission).
Backers aren't able to fathom not seeing the product release, which is why they'll ignore signs of poor development progress or pivots by the developer studio and continue defending and funding the project. It's an issue, because the end result is what @Torval alludes to: no accountability.
I don't see how Apocalypse can replace the actual MMO that people are fretting about; I do see however possible delays due to unforeseen obstacles along the MMO production path.
Delays are pretty much guaranteed.
I personally have little interest in AoC: Apocalypse, but... I imagine they're looking for a way to bring in more money. So, I'm fine with it.
Would people really rather have them selling kingdoms for RL money? Or a bunch of overpowered ships the rest will spend a year grinding for? *looks at the other Kickstarter MMO's out there*
As a business... if the BR takes off and makes cash would you ignore it and turn back to the MMORPG or would you do what Epic did with Fortnite and put the old game on maintenance mode while focusing on the BR cash cow
These guys said said they had a $30M budget and anything raised from Crowdfunding was just for extras. So unless they lied, it shouldn’t be a question of selling Kingdoms/Spaceships or a BattleRoyale detour. If what they said was true they should already have enough money to fund the MMORPG. Right? Or am I missing something?
It's a crowdfunding game... $30M should've already been a red flag. In all likelihood they are suffering the same problems all the others are. Nowhere near enough money to finish the whole thing.
As for your question, that's entirely possible. I'd hope not, but... it's a realistic outcome. I have no money invested in any of the crowdfunding titles, so aside from a disappointment of my tempered expectations... I'm not losing anything either way.
Regardless, it's beyond our control either way.
If I recall properly, It was stated that they already had the $30M because Stephen got so rich from his MLM stuff and selling Xango juice and I think even real estate. So this was not to be a true Crowdfunded game but a self backed one with the Crowdfunding just for extras.
Why do none of the fans question this? Or am I mistaken? Pretty sure I remember properly.
@jahlon seems to be a “do what you say you would” kind of guy from his vids. I’d love to see him actually press Stephen on this. I can dig up the old interviews if it would help.
As I recall Steven made a qualifier post KSer that he had "access" to $30 million in funding, not that he specifically had $30M in "available" funds nor that he was putting up this entire amount himself.
In response I think some folks floated stories around about how his mother was the one who really made big money from the MLM business, and he was more of just a lieutenant in the organization.
As always, Steven's stories always slide around the truth, without anyone really being able to validate his claims and unsubstantiated urban legends cropping up as facts in many cases.
I think that Steven said during an interview that he's committed to funding the project with $30M, and then counted on people to misunderstand that.
Saying that you're committed to doing something doesn't really create any legal obligation because you're allowed to decide that you aren't committed any more.
Always remember, Steven has proven to be a master wordsmith over the past two years, here's a good example.
Jahlon linked a MassivelyOP interview asking about the total funding to Steven.
MassivelyOP: "Can you discuss the setup of your funding? How much capital has gone into the game so far, and where did it come from? How much is the whole game expected to cost, all told, and how does it compare to other recent Kickstarted MMOs? (Crowfall has raised $12M, for example.)"
To which Steven replies, carefully avoiding how much has been spent so far. While he does confirm he has funded the game to date, the $30M figure is mentioned afterward and he does not say he is providing the full funding, only stating what the budget is to "complete."
"The project is being funded by myself currently. This is going to be a bigger game, content-wise, than Crowfall, and our budget and funding reflects that. A core viable build that includes all the features discussed about the game will take roughly $30 million to complete."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
That's my problem with most crowd funded efforts, CU is a great example.
They bury backers with communication, being one I get them all. Each one explains how busy, busy, busy they have been, detailing great "accomplishments like the latest new shrubbery, but never say what you want to know, how much is left to do and when do they expect it to be complete.
Hey, in the first two years I realize there are lots of great unknowns, but as we come up on year six for CU and similar for some others, it is not unreasonable for consumers to expect a fairly accurate target release date.
Unless of course, they don't really know what the hell they are doing.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
I have consistently said that is what is wrong with the crowdfunding is they are accountable to no one. Yes both of those games are late to market and I have less forgiveness towards Jacobs because he knew better. My point was more that at least I can see what is going on with the development of those games and if I had backed them then I could make an educated decision on if I should jump ship and get a refund or wait it out.
What do we really know about AoC development on the MMO front? Exactly! Not a thing other than they say it is being worked on.
They may be without accountability but transparency can buy short term forgiveness if it makes sense. My thought is all these crowdfunded project managers had zero idea what they were signing up for. They produced something that sounded great on paper and here we are. Sure there have been a couple of games made and they were good but also single player.
Jacobs is only one I say does not get a pass of these examples because he had done it twice before and yet he is about 6 yrs late to the game.
In all fairness the original delivery estimate was two years, so in April he's coming up on "only" being four years late.
I knew better six years ago, but apparently Mark and these other industry "experts" didnt.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early. There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
Why do you accept that those are the only choices? It’s like saying I’d rather have a finger cut off than my whole arm... Well yeah... but I hope there’s another option beyond those 2.
Because that's not how reality works. Just because you want something to be the best game ever *and* be released in 1 year from the date it's announced doesn't mean it's going to happen.
The only choices are wait longer for a better game or rush them into releasing a steaming pile.
What would you suggest people do? Storm their offices on midnight of the day they are overdue? Have everyone do a chargeback on that day and never see the game come out at all?
No.. I would actually suggest holding people accountable for what they sell which includes roughly the time they sold it for delivery. Not quite sure why that is such a radical idea.
Delays happen? Sure... build that into your planned ETA. Give me an ETA of 18 months and then 48 months later you are still in Alpha? Fuck no!
By the way that is EXACTLY how reality works outside of this bizzaro crowdfunded game world we have allowed to exist. Dekay all you want, and I might even cheer your decision as long as you offer the customer the ability to refund. Don't expect the customer to pay the price for your ineptitude.
"Holding people accountable"
Must be nice to live in a world with such vague concepts, I'll just "be successful" when I want more money!
People backed these games knowing that there was a risk. You keep saying to hold people accountable but have no idea how to do that, so until you come up with something viable I can't take you seriously. Reality is much more complicated than "hold them accountable". Ok....how? Oh, you can't? Gee, maybe that's because reality is a lot more complicated than your regurgitated platitudes.
I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
I have consistently said that is what is wrong with the crowdfunding is they are accountable to no one. Yes both of those games are late to market and I have less forgiveness towards Jacobs because he knew better. My point was more that at least I can see what is going on with the development of those games and if I had backed them then I could make an educated decision on if I should jump ship and get a refund or wait it out.
What do we really know about AoC development on the MMO front? Exactly! Not a thing other than they say it is being worked on.
They may be without accountability but transparency can buy short term forgiveness if it makes sense. My thought is all these crowdfunded project managers had zero idea what they were signing up for. They produced something that sounded great on paper and here we are. Sure there have been a couple of games made and they were good but also single player.
Jacobs is only one I say does not get a pass of these examples because he had done it twice before and yet he is about 6 yrs late to the game.
Hey... Todd Coleman and Gordon Walton have as much if not more experience than MJ (Walton definitely...)
Guess I could have elaborated more on that point but you are correct.
My thoughts are that they are attempting something different and much deeper and complex than what Jacobs is doing. Jacobs should have the whole RvR thing under his belt by now. And to add to that on its surface CU does not seem to be overly deep and I would even call it shallow. Nothing that should have taken this long but my guess is they have more technical issues than they do design issues. That is just a guess as I am not carefully following CU because as I said it seems quiet shallow.
As a point of order, CU is intentionally lacking or shallow as you put it.
During the KSer Mark was quite clear CU was not a full MMORPG like DAOC, and it's PVE would be severely lacking.
Rather the focus would be on delivering large scale (1000 or so) RVR combat on an engine they were building to handle the load.
It was based on this "limited" set of requirements I actually believed he might pull off with the money he was asking for combined with his personal funds, all told around $5M or so I think which is why I backed it at an alpha access tier.
I never bought in on the two year timeline, thinking 3 years at least but never expecting to be at the 6 yr mark with no firm target end date established.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Saying that you're committed to doing something doesn't really create any legal obligation because you're allowed to decide that you aren't committed any more.
A few hiccups on the way but its getting there.
Edit: Words.
I have been investigating the money since 18 October 2018 when in a meeting with the Content Creators they mentioned they might monetize the Battle Royale product. Here is what I found:
From the Kickstarter:
"We’ve got private backing that will allow us to produce a core viable product."
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1791529601/ashes-of-creation-new-mmorpg-by-intrepid-studios
So, what is a "core viable product" and how much will it cost?
"A core viable build that includes all the features discussed about the game will take roughly $30 million to complete.”
https://massivelyop.com/2017/05/04/ashes-of-creations-steven-sharif-on-his-business-history-30m-funding-goal-and-pvp/
Who is paying for it?
" One the development of a core viable product, absolutely I’m 100% funding. That’s already there. That’s scheduled out. The hiring of additional team members in order to encompass that development time is paid for."
https://www.paradoxgaming.net/the-steven-answer
Now, why does it say "we" on the Kickstarter?
If you look up who launched the kickstarter it was Intrepid as a company, so of course the company has private funding in the form of their CEO Steven Sharif.
Now, is there a soundbite or quote that says he has a pile of $28,000,000 just sitting around ready to throw into the company?
--- No this soundbite does not exist there is never a direct soundbite of Steven saying that he has that much just sitting around. However, a cursory look into the situation, the assets that we know he owns (homes, cars, etc) leaves little doubt that he has the amount of disposable income that he claims he does.
Remember he's on the record as already putting in $2M and its pretty fair to say what we have seen reflects at LEAST this amount of money. I mean just look at the offices, the desks, the size of the staff, the booth they use at the trade shows, the gear they bring to the trade shows. While yes, none of this stuff "really matters" for the development of the MMORPG if you will, it is at the very least proof that some serious money has been dropped into the studio.
Soundbite that Steven has already invested $2,000,000:
But does that matter? No, I don't think so. I think at this point, they are producing enough "stuff" that its pretty clear they have money. Can I do a monetary breakdown to show they have produced more than $3.2M worth of Kickstarter funding "stuff" plus the $2M seed money from Steven, plus the Summber backer, plus the web page sales. No, of course not. I don't have access to the entire inventory of things they've done to say "Yes, this looks like X$M worth of stuff"
While you may not trust Steven, remember some of the people who work at Intrepid are well known names from the industry. Guys like Michael Bacon and Jason Crawford could have gone pretty much anywhere, they decided to go to Intrepid. Margaret Krohn the new Community Marketing Lead left a job at NCSoft to come work for Intrepid.
Now, on the topic of the Kickstarter. In retrospect, if they were fully funded to the level they said they were, they would have been better served spending all of 2017 just developing the game. Not going to trade shows, not doing a kickstarter nothing. Showing up at Kickstarter in May of 2018 with Alpha Zero flushed out as a playable demo for people that would have exploded WAY more than $3.2M. But, the past is the past.
And on a final note, the entire "MLM" thing people constantly bring up, people have to remember MLMs are common place all over the country, they just take various shapes and sizes, and they are perfectly legal. I'm not sure why people are caught up on this particular sales concept as being inherently morally wrong.
Slapshot1188
Paradox Gaming Network
Paradox YouTube Channel
Ashes 101
If they have enough money ($30M + Kickstarter and Store cash) then there should be no need to put up a cash shop BattleRoyale game to raise cash... right?
As for MLM... it's often sketchy and when combined with sketchy stuff like Xango Juice... and then taken to a platform ripe for exploitation like Crowdfunded Videogames with no oversite... it merits at least being a bit skeptical IMHO. So given that background, when a guy says he already has $30M lined up for his game and it's all he needs in order to develop the core game... then the first thing produced is a cash shop BattleRoyale which came out of left field... yes... I think that brings a lot of questions.
As for the people hired, I have no problem with that. But please do keep in mind that many are with Intrepid because SOE went belly up and they were in SanDiego. Not the only reason for sure, but lets be honest, if the studio was in Virginia I do not think they would have many of the same people. It's not like they left a cushy job with Google. They came from a company that was going out of business and looking for a home. Good for them that they found a landing spot though.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
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All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Why do you accept that those are the only choices? It’s like saying I’d rather have a finger cut off than my whole arm... Well yeah... but I hope there’s another option beyond those 2.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But sunk cost fallacy and confirmation bias. "Software development is hard, so no need to hold them accountable for missed deadlines," is literally a mantra among some on this very site. Consumers weren't and never were in a position to enter crowdfunding transactions on a level playing field with the studios tempting them with buzzwords and beyond-ambitious timelines. And now we see why: they want the end product too hard to see the project objectively.
That's all we see. We have seen zero class diversification, zero mmo diversification, and zero open world dungeon/quest elements.
The fact that this game has gained a following based on the battle royale aspect is disturbing, and investors nad developers may lean that way and scrap the mmo portion based on the BR interest.
Do we all remember EQnext?
What was their mistake?
1) resources poured into Landmark
2) Landmark PVP eneabled--- which converted Landmark into a battle royale.
And so far-- all indicators are this game is headed in that direction.
Getting too old for this $&17!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The only choices are wait longer for a better game or rush them into releasing a steaming pile.
What would you suggest people do? Storm their offices on midnight of the day they are overdue? Have everyone do a chargeback on that day and never see the game come out at all?
Delays happen? Sure... build that into your planned ETA. Give me an ETA of 18 months and then 48 months later you are still in Alpha? Fuck no!
By the way that is EXACTLY how reality works outside of this bizzaro crowdfunded game world we have allowed to exist. Dekay all you want, and I might even cheer your decision as long as you offer the customer the ability to refund. Don't expect the customer to pay the price for your ineptitude.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Backers aren't able to fathom not seeing the product release, which is why they'll ignore signs of poor development progress or pivots by the developer studio and continue defending and funding the project. It's an issue, because the end result is what @Torval alludes to: no accountability.
Jahlon linked a MassivelyOP interview asking about the total funding to Steven.
MassivelyOP:
"Can you discuss the setup of your funding? How much capital has gone into the game so far, and where did it come from? How much is the whole game expected to cost, all told, and how does it compare to other recent Kickstarted MMOs? (Crowfall has raised $12M, for example.)"
To which Steven replies, carefully avoiding how much has been spent so far. While he does confirm he has funded the game to date, the $30M figure is mentioned afterward and he does not say he is providing the full funding, only stating what the budget is to "complete."
"The project is being funded by myself currently. This is going to be a bigger game, content-wise, than Crowfall, and our budget and funding reflects that. A core viable build that includes all the features discussed about the game will take roughly $30 million to complete."
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They bury backers with communication, being one I get them all. Each one explains how busy, busy, busy they have been, detailing great "accomplishments like the latest new shrubbery, but never say what you want to know, how much is left to do and when do they expect it to be complete.
Hey, in the first two years I realize there are lots of great unknowns, but as we come up on year six for CU and similar for some others, it is not unreasonable for consumers to expect a fairly accurate target release date.
Unless of course, they don't really know what the hell they are doing.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I knew better six years ago, but apparently Mark and these other industry "experts" didnt.
Or they were lying....you don't suppose....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Must be nice to live in a world with such vague concepts, I'll just "be successful" when I want more money!
People backed these games knowing that there was a risk. You keep saying to hold people accountable but have no idea how to do that, so until you come up with something viable I can't take you seriously. Reality is much more complicated than "hold them accountable". Ok....how? Oh, you can't? Gee, maybe that's because reality is a lot more complicated than your regurgitated platitudes.
During the KSer Mark was quite clear CU was not a full MMORPG like DAOC, and it's PVE would be severely lacking.
Rather the focus would be on delivering large scale (1000 or so) RVR combat on an engine they were building to handle the load.
It was based on this "limited" set of requirements I actually believed he might pull off with the money he was asking for combined with his personal funds, all told around $5M or so I think which is why I backed it at an alpha access tier.
I never bought in on the two year timeline, thinking 3 years at least but never expecting to be at the 6 yr mark with no firm target end date established.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon