"If you buy a PvP game when hundreds of PvE titles are available"
I found your real problem right there. There are basically no PvE MMORPGs worth a shit that have been developed in the past 10 years.
For the game I'm talking about (Legends of Aria) the cult like complaints are coming in even though the game has PvP and PvE servers.
But yeah, the larger point you made stands - in fact, I think the PvP crowd would say the same thing. The MMORPG space has been bleak for quite a while now.
"If you buy a PvP game when hundreds of PvE titles are available"
I found your real problem right there. There are basically no PvE MMORPGs worth a shit that have been developed in the past 10 years.
For the game I'm talking about (Legends of Aria) the cult like complaints are coming in even though the game has PvP and PvE servers.
But yeah, the larger point you made stands - in fact, I think the PvP crowd would say the same thing. The MMORPG space has been bleak for quite a while now.
You seem to not grasp the possibility (Which is highly likely) that those complaining could actually be pvp players that also enjoy pve elements in their game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Me thinks you are perhaps a wolf in sheep's clothing. (arguing a position from a PVEer's perspective which really doesn't reflect your true beliefs)
I've already been accused of that once. I've also had people claim the two threads are the same topic.
The first thread is about frustration with people not understanding a product before buying it. The second thread is about cult-like control freaks that insert themselves into a game and insist the entire gaming population cater to them - and those that don't are immoral.
None of those threads are an attack on people who enjoy PvE or PvP. We've such a great wealth of games these days - everyone should be in a game they love.
Probably the 3rd most offensive thing to me in gaming is when people begin to analyze the person on the other side of the conversation. PvP types are 'griefers', 'epeen strokers', or 'children' while the PvE crowd is 'carebears', 'unskilled', or 'simpletons'.
The whole 'wolf in sheeps clothing' thing - I have to have that one explained to me because try as I might I fail to see what possible benefit there could be to me pretending to be PvE centric while actually being a PvP lover - like I'm going to trick a couple of people here who love PvE to join a PvP game and I'll get their stuff? What is the end game with that? I for the life of me cannot figure that one out.
I'm playing CardLife right now (only game I play) on a PvE server (Server #9). I'm on there daily (6:00 - 7:30 PM roughly) under the name Jerboa. You can look up my steam profile and see what I play (Age of Empires, Darkest Dungeon, Cardlife) - anyways, I'll be out of town next week but if you join me I CardLife tonight I'll help you get started.
I don't think I've ever heard of a PvE player buying a PvP focused game and complaining it has PvP. I enjoy PvP if it's done correctly, as in it doesn't promote gankfest and trollish asshatery behavior. Alas, that seems to be what some PvP players enjoy. I can play DAoC all day, every day. Why you ask? Because the PvP is separate from a majority of the PvE. When you start mixing PvP and PvE together, then you need to make sure PvE players can actually enjoy it, otherwise don't do it.
I think some people interpret starter areas (which protect from PvP) as an indication that the game is for PvE players. I say that because in the case of Legends of Aria, people are complaining that they are getting attacked in PvP zones. Sure, you can play the game as PvE only but complaining that end game content isn't PvP free is silly.
I don't think I've ever heard of a PvE player buying a PvP focused game and complaining it has PvP. I enjoy PvP if it's done correctly, as in it doesn't promote gankfest and trollish asshatery behavior. Alas, that seems to be what some PvP players enjoy. I can play DAoC all day, every day. Why you ask? Because the PvP is separate from a majority of the PvE. When you start mixing PvP and PvE together, then you need to make sure PvE players can actually enjoy it, otherwise don't do it.
I think some people interpret starter areas (which protect from PvP) as an indication that the game is for PvE players. I say that because in the case of Legends of Aria, people are complaining that they are getting attacked in PvP zones. Sure, you can play the game as PvE only but complaining that end game content isn't PvP free is silly.
So understanding that safe zones != PvE game.
I would reckon that PvP free zone are indications of poor PvP balance.
So I can see how someone in either PvE cult or PvP cult could get upset about such a game. Though the poor PvP cult member is likely to be burn as a witch of the PvE cult.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
I don't think I've ever heard of a PvE player buying a PvP focused game and complaining it has PvP. I enjoy PvP if it's done correctly, as in it doesn't promote gankfest and trollish asshatery behavior. Alas, that seems to be what some PvP players enjoy. I can play DAoC all day, every day. Why you ask? Because the PvP is separate from a majority of the PvE. When you start mixing PvP and PvE together, then you need to make sure PvE players can actually enjoy it, otherwise don't do it.
I think some people interpret starter areas (which protect from PvP) as an indication that the game is for PvE players. I say that because in the case of Legends of Aria, people are complaining that they are getting attacked in PvP zones. Sure, you can play the game as PvE only but complaining that end game content isn't PvP free is silly.
So understanding that safe zones != PvE game.
I would reckon that PvP free zone are indications of poor PvP balance.
I dunno, I think most PvP games start out with some sort of 'starter zone' don't they? Towns have a tendency to have 'guards' so that commerce can occur. Even Shadowbane had 'noob island' that protected players until level 20.
That aside, I don't know how you'd get balance in a MMORPG with PvP and substantive progression. The moment you have it possible for players unable to defend themselves to be attacked by high level players is the moment you're really going to get a lot of frustrating play.
You simply cannot have godlike characters mowing down noobs - which is why games like Battlefield can be so popular (everyone is pretty much the same) and games like Darkfail don't do so well.
man you are wrong, PVP players are more cultist than PVE !
I wouldn't paint either type of player base with such a broad brush. I actually prefer PvE and don't consider myself a cultist. (1)
NOTES ---------------------------------------------------------------- 1: Some of the mind readers on the site have determined that I'm actually a noob slaying sociopath who likes to slip into forums and offer up PvE cookies to lure unsuspecting carebears to a gruesome death. I assure you that I'm harmless. In fact, I'd like you to see my house - it is located in that thick grove of trees right outside the guard zone....
The reason is because one has made a name for itself, as a group, of ruining others' experiences. There's a group of PvPers who can't just gank someone and move on; they need to make sure that gamer can't do anything but stare at their corpse.
PvE is, in general, cooperative. There aren't entire guilds of folks who camp out raid groups to ninja loot until the guild trying to farm it gives up. You can't, because you gotta be invited to the group and the first time you ninja you won't be invited again.
PvP requires a sort of players agency that enables them to have a far greater detrimental effect on others than PvE, at least in general.
I think if you log into a PvP game and you don't like PvP - well, I don't see the PK as the one ruining the experience. That is like sitting down to play chess and being upset when the other player takes one of your bishops.
To me running back to your corpse and getting PK'd repeatedly is like continuously throwing your pawn at the other guy's queen in a game of chess. At exactly what point do you begin to take responsibility for your game choices and actions?
If you keep throwing a pawn at the other guy's queen in a game of chess is he a 'griefer'? Is he stroking his chess 'epeen'? Does he live in in mother's basement? Maybe the name calling says more about the one calling names than the target?
Do the developers offer a PVE experience? Is PVP gated until a certain level or are certain activities gated until higher levels then forced upon those who wish to continue? If you answer yes to any of those then I would be pointing the finger at the devs for trying to entice PVE minded players into their game.
Many PVP focused games will offer some form of PVE experience to get the population of players up and make the game look alive. It also gives pvp players more fodder. BDO is a good example of a game that has PVE up to a certain level and if you wish to go beyond that your forced into pvp. If it was pvp from the start then they most likely would have a fraction of the game population.
I think you mentioned something about miners complaining that Higher level ores were in PVP areas? What about the lower level ores? Why aren't they in PVP areas? I think you know the answer to that. Point the finger at the devs and complain to them.
It's been proven more times than not that in the west PVP games need PVE to sustain them, whereas PVE games don't need PVP.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
I think you mentioned something about miners complaining that Higher level ores were in PVP areas? What about the lower level ores? Why aren't they in PVP areas? I think you know the answer to that. Point the finger at the devs and complain to them.
It is common for PvP games (MMORPG) to have starter areas and safe zones so that new players can get a foothold in the game. Safe zones do not make a game a PvE game any more than having a bench makes football a non-contact sport.
For your ridiculous theory to be correct you'd literally have to have a room full of developers sitting around going "we put high level materials in a PvP zone by accident *derp* *derp* *derp*".
And your post is classic cult-like jibberish.
You don't seem capable of comprehending that a game could be designed to encourage PvP fights by placing high level materials in a PvP zone. For you, apparently, it must be some sort of a mistake and complaints to the developers is encouraged because civil rights are being violated - because PvP with crafting just isn't possible for some reason.
High level ores in a PvP zone is intentional. No, you don't get them risk free - it isn't designed to be that way on purpose.
While I agree with your position that a person should buy games they want and not games that have features they don't want, I think there are as many pvp players who can also be "cultish" or even a bit psychopathic.
In short, there are bad people in all walks of life.
True. However, I'm not aware of this happening:
1: Buys a PvE only game. 2: Enters a PvE only server. 3: Enters a PvE only zone. 4: Find as PvE hotspot. 5: Has an unskilled PvE character. 6: Logs onto the forums and complains when PvP doesn't happen - tries to get the rules rewritten to support PvP - refers to the PvE crowd as "crazy".
Probably does happen though - I've just not seen it.
It happens all the time. Who do you think brought the carebear moniker from a cartoon into mmos? Sour PvPers.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
While I agree with your position that a person should buy games they want and not games that have features they don't want, I think there are as many pvp players who can also be "cultish" or even a bit psychopathic.
In short, there are bad people in all walks of life.
True. However, I'm not aware of this happening:
1: Buys a PvE only game. 2: Enters a PvE only server. 3: Enters a PvE only zone. 4: Find as PvE hotspot. 5: Has an unskilled PvE character. 6: Logs onto the forums and complains when PvP doesn't happen - tries to get the rules rewritten to support PvP - refers to the PvE crowd as "crazy".
Probably does happen though - I've just not seen it.
It happens all the time. Who do you think brought the carebear moniker from a cartoon into mmos? Sour PvPers.
The term 'carebear' arose in UO (or earlier) when players who wanted only PvE complained endlessly about getting ganked. The PKs called the whiners 'carebears'. This was before PvE MMORPGs were available.
Show me a single PvE game forum where there are hoards of PvP players complaining about the lack of PvP…. calling the developers unfair and stupid. I'm not talking about politely requesting it. I'm talking about the drama - the OMG THIS GAME IS GONNA FAIL YOU ALL SUCK DIE IN A FIRE hysteria that the PvE crowd pulls on nearly every PvP game forum.
While I agree with your position that a person should buy games they want and not games that have features they don't want, I think there are as many pvp players who can also be "cultish" or even a bit psychopathic.
In short, there are bad people in all walks of life.
True. However, I'm not aware of this happening:
1: Buys a PvE only game. 2: Enters a PvE only server. 3: Enters a PvE only zone. 4: Find as PvE hotspot. 5: Has an unskilled PvE character. 6: Logs onto the forums and complains when PvP doesn't happen - tries to get the rules rewritten to support PvP - refers to the PvE crowd as "crazy".
Probably does happen though - I've just not seen it.
It happens all the time. Who do you think brought the carebear moniker from a cartoon into mmos? Sour PvPers.
The term 'carebear' arose in UO (or earlier) when players who wanted only PvE complained endlessly about getting ganked. The PKs called the whiners 'carebears'. This was before PvE MMORPGs were available.
Show me a single PvE game forum where there are hoards of PvP players complaining about the lack of PvP…. calling the developers unfair and stupid. I'm not talking about politely requesting it. I'm talking about the drama - the OMG THIS GAME IS GONNA FAIL YOU ALL SUCK DIE IN A FIRE hysteria that the PvE crowd pulls on nearly every PvP game forum.
Just one.
you just confirmed my comment. Sour PvPers came up with the term.
There is no cult. Just like @Sovrath said, there are jerks on both sides.
I do agree that if i game is PvP only then PvErs shouldn't be invovled. However, It is ironic when companies try to sell an mmo as a PvP game then make the progression/leveling based on PvE. That game is simply for everyone and should have consensual PvP.
I agree completely with the OP. Developers will say their focus is PvP and then players will complain about how they hate PvP and the game won't succeed because the of the PvP focus. Its their game, and they know players want pvp. There is plenty of PvE games out there, go play those and quit trying to ruin PvP games that many people have been waiting for.
Not to side with @Kyleran or anything, but I also was suspicious with your inclinations from the very few replies on top of your absurd accusations in the OP.
For someone who says he's a "PVE player" you're trying way too hard to enforce your view on PVE players being the "bad guys" on others.
Kyleran said: ..same for our experiences here where some of us are "masters" of forum PVP.
PROTIP: Calling people a troll or mind reading that they are something other than they claim to be is not a 'master' move. Really good forum PvP is actually engaging the issues that are raised and leaving the personal stuff behind.
While I agree with your position that a person should buy games they want and not games that have features they don't want, I think there are as many pvp players who can also be "cultish" or even a bit psychopathic.
In short, there are bad people in all walks of life.
True. However, I'm not aware of this happening:
1: Buys a PvE only game. 2: Enters a PvE only server. 3: Enters a PvE only zone. 4: Find as PvE hotspot. 5: Has an unskilled PvE character. 6: Logs onto the forums and complains when PvP doesn't happen - tries to get the rules rewritten to support PvP - refers to the PvE crowd as "crazy".
Probably does happen though - I've just not seen it.
It happens all the time. Who do you think brought the carebear moniker from a cartoon into mmos? Sour PvPers.
The term 'carebear' arose in UO (or earlier) when players who wanted only PvE complained endlessly about getting ganked. The PKs called the whiners 'carebears'. This was before PvE MMORPGs were available.
Show me a single PvE game forum where there are hoards of PvP players complaining about the lack of PvP…. calling the developers unfair and stupid. I'm not talking about politely requesting it. I'm talking about the drama - the OMG THIS GAME IS GONNA FAIL YOU ALL SUCK DIE IN A FIRE hysteria that the PvE crowd pulls on nearly every PvP game forum.
Just one.
Well, in fairness, when lord of the rings online was being developed, there was a huge thread about how the game needed pvp and now it was made for pvp. I can't remember if people were getting insulting but there were very heated debates among those who wanted pvp and then wanted it to be world pvp.
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Not to side with @Kyleran or anything, but I also was suspicious with your inclinations from the very few replies on top of your absurd accusations in the OP.
For someone who says he's a "PVE player" you're trying way too hard to enforce your view on PVE players being the "bad guys" on others.
Just my 2 cents.
IF YOU SIDE WITH KYLERAN THEN YOU MUST DIE!
That aside...
I think the word "some" in the title is key. If you don't like PvE and you play PvE games you're awesome.
Where it gets weird is when a PvE player buys a PvP game, log into a PvP server, enter a PvP zone, find the hotspot in the PvP zone and then complain when PvP happens - and insist the developers are stupid, the PKs are bad people, and civil rights are being violated.
Normal, healthy people have that happened and think "OMG, I got into the wrong game for me".
The cultists think "OMG, I HAVE TO CHANGE THIS GAME AND SHOW ALL THESE PEOPLE THE LIGHT". Because for some reason, for the cultist, PvP happening anywhere is fundamentally immoral and they should be able to enter any zone in any game anywhere at anytime and be free from it.
Most PvE players aren't like that. Most PvE players aren't cultists. Most PvE players read the box and think "no way in hell, I hate that crap".
I just get tired of reading endless tears on the forums by the cultists that failed to read the box. I long for a developer to just say, "You don't get it. Please leave."
Denial of this sort is the hallmark of a cult. So, do you guys use goat blood or do you find the rabbit's easier to clean up?
You must be smoking something. I even agreed with you about keeping people where they want to be (PvPers on PvP servers and PvEers on PvE servers), and you come up with this meaningless crap.
Comments
I found your real problem right there. There are basically no PvE MMORPGs worth a shit that have been developed in the past 10 years.
Also, I advertised the game I was talking about and where I was getting the flak.
I've nothing to hide.... except in this closet over here, you cannot go in there.
But yeah, the larger point you made stands - in fact, I think the PvP crowd would say the same thing. The MMORPG space has been bleak for quite a while now.
We members of the Cult of Carebear get pretty good at recognizing each other, what with all our secret handshakes and recognition signs.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I've also had people claim the two threads are the same topic.
The first thread is about frustration with people not understanding a product before buying it.
The second thread is about cult-like control freaks that insert themselves into a game and insist the entire gaming population cater to them - and those that don't are immoral.
None of those threads are an attack on people who enjoy PvE or PvP.
We've such a great wealth of games these days - everyone should be in a game they love.
Probably the 3rd most offensive thing to me in gaming is when people begin to analyze the person on the other side of the conversation. PvP types are 'griefers', 'epeen strokers', or 'children' while the PvE crowd is 'carebears', 'unskilled', or 'simpletons'.
The whole 'wolf in sheeps clothing' thing - I have to have that one explained to me because try as I might I fail to see what possible benefit there could be to me pretending to be PvE centric while actually being a PvP lover - like I'm going to trick a couple of people here who love PvE to join a PvP game and I'll get their stuff? What is the end game with that? I for the life of me cannot figure that one out.
I'm playing CardLife right now (only game I play) on a PvE server (Server #9). I'm on there daily (6:00 - 7:30 PM roughly) under the name Jerboa. You can look up my steam profile and see what I play (Age of Empires, Darkest Dungeon, Cardlife) - anyways, I'll be out of town next week but if you join me I CardLife tonight I'll help you get started.
God, you people are paranoid.
So understanding that safe zones != PvE game.
So I can see how someone in either PvE cult or PvP cult could get upset about such a game. Though the poor PvP cult member is likely to be burn as a witch of the PvE cult.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Towns have a tendency to have 'guards' so that commerce can occur.
Even Shadowbane had 'noob island' that protected players until level 20.
That aside, I don't know how you'd get balance in a MMORPG with PvP and substantive progression. The moment you have it possible for players unable to defend themselves to be attacked by high level players is the moment you're really going to get a lot of frustrating play.
You simply cannot have godlike characters mowing down noobs - which is why games like Battlefield can be so popular (everyone is pretty much the same) and games like Darkfail don't do so well.
I actually prefer PvE and don't consider myself a cultist. (1)
NOTES
----------------------------------------------------------------
1: Some of the mind readers on the site have determined that I'm actually a noob slaying sociopath who likes to slip into forums and offer up PvE cookies to lure unsuspecting carebears to a gruesome death. I assure you that I'm harmless. In fact, I'd like you to see my house - it is located in that thick grove of trees right outside the guard zone....
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
For your ridiculous theory to be correct you'd literally have to have a room full of developers sitting around going "we put high level materials in a PvP zone by accident *derp* *derp* *derp*".
And your post is classic cult-like jibberish.
You don't seem capable of comprehending that a game could be designed to encourage PvP fights by placing high level materials in a PvP zone. For you, apparently, it must be some sort of a mistake and complaints to the developers is encouraged because civil rights are being violated - because PvP with crafting just isn't possible for some reason.
High level ores in a PvP zone is intentional.
No, you don't get them risk free - it isn't designed to be that way on purpose.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Show me a single PvE game forum where there are hoards of PvP players complaining about the lack of PvP…. calling the developers unfair and stupid. I'm not talking about politely requesting it. I'm talking about the drama - the OMG THIS GAME IS GONNA FAIL YOU ALL SUCK DIE IN A FIRE hysteria that the PvE crowd pulls on nearly every PvP game forum.
Just one.
And no, I didn't confirm your comment.
You said that PvP players harassing people on PvE game forums happens all of the time.
You moved the goalposts there, buddy.
So, do you guys use goat blood or do you find the rabbit's easier to clean up?
For someone who says he's a "PVE player" you're trying way too hard to enforce your view on PVE players being the "bad guys" on others.
Just my 2 cents.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That aside...
I think the word "some" in the title is key.
If you don't like PvE and you play PvE games you're awesome.
Where it gets weird is when a PvE player buys a PvP game, log into a PvP server, enter a PvP zone, find the hotspot in the PvP zone and then complain when PvP happens - and insist the developers are stupid, the PKs are bad people, and civil rights are being violated.
Normal, healthy people have that happened and think "OMG, I got into the wrong game for me".
The cultists think "OMG, I HAVE TO CHANGE THIS GAME AND SHOW ALL THESE PEOPLE THE LIGHT". Because for some reason, for the cultist, PvP happening anywhere is fundamentally immoral and they should be able to enter any zone in any game anywhere at anytime and be free from it.
Most PvE players aren't like that.
Most PvE players aren't cultists.
Most PvE players read the box and think "no way in hell, I hate that crap".
I just get tired of reading endless tears on the forums by the cultists that failed to read the box. I long for a developer to just say, "You don't get it. Please leave."