In Lineage 2 I had a guy become insulting because we had a huge fight, won, and afterwards got into a good conversation with the leader of the opposing alliance. We decided to rez him and then one of our own side passes us by and gets insulting because of it.
While I'm sure there are role playing pvp players they seem to be a minority. And "role playing" usually entails taking on the persona of a character that is also tied to the world and the culture/lore of that world.
Someone using derogatory "modern speech" is not role playing.
This, IMO, is the crux of the whole PVP vs PVE mindset. PVP that takes place in character, in the world, and with an objective that relates to the world is one thing. Old school FPS style deathmatch where it's kill the other guy for the sake of killing the other guy with no respect to or for the setting and context is where PVP becomes distasteful for a lot of MMO players who still hew towards the whole RPG aspect of it.
There was a time when the games used to be actual RPGs, where the focus was on developing and growing a character through questing, where the rewards included increasing stats as an abstract representation of a person living in the world and gaining life, martial, or general experience by doing those things in that world. In the real world it's go to school, work a job, socialize with people, etc. to increase your individual "stats" as it were. In a game, it's do quests, kill increasingly difficult mobs, get rewards, and get whatever the game represents as growth experience in the way of talent points, XP, and what have you.
Along the way, you get immersed in a story or help craft one of your own as you proceed through the game. For some PVP-centric people, the only goal is to gear up, stat up, and go kill the other guys, regardless of what the game's world has established is the cultural and societal norm.
Now, for some games, this works well. Warhammer, for example, is a setting built on perpetual war. Shooters and Battle Royale games as well. For MMORPGs, it's a bit tricky, because while there are enemy factions, not every interaction has to boil down to violence. The problem is few people want to try different routes. For the action-minded player, roleplaying out a diplomatic exchange is boring. For a small group of these PVP-centric players, PVP in and of itself is the goal, without any logical meaning behind it. An even smaller group completely eschews the RPG aspect altogether and those are the types that do the sh*t-talking in chat and generally make the game an unpleasant for those who'd rather avoid PVP.
Obviously, if someone willingly goes into a PVP focused game, he needs to be aware that that minority of PVP players will exist in some form, and they will encounter them. You either play in such a way as to avoid them, or you choose not to play the game.
For me personally, I just don't play any game that has non-consentual PVP. Less drama that way.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
i personally hate pvp. yes, i suck at it. the reason i hate it is because there is no progression for doing it. its just mindless killing with no real goal other than to stroke an epeen. i would do it if it meant character progression even though i would probably hate it.
That's a bit cynical though.
For some, those who are more stable and less about screwing people over, it is about "personal best."
Just like the Olympics.
An Olympic athlete gets rewarded for winning but there is also personal pride about devoting one's self to being great and actually achieving that state.
It's very satisfying.
I will tell you that I used to "suck" at pvp until Tera where my actual skill had an effect at winning/losing.
Oh sure, I was "good" in Lineag2 but that game was about gear and level which I had both. But get someone who outgeared/leveled me and I would lose.
Just different types of games but that's why I'm a proponent for pvp games where my actual skill is part of the win/lose equation.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Someone using derogatory "modern speech" is not role playing.
Right, but that seems beside the point since it is common to every game/playstyle. I just witnessed a PvE tiff last night that was totally ridiculous. I wouldn't think of condemning PvE because of it.
That's true pve players can be just as bad. But all this goes to say is that there are bad pve players and bad pvp players. Both types of players (or any type of person" can be a bit cultish.
So the pve player who decries pvp players and hates that pvp exists anywhere is not so different from the pvp player who is verbally abusive, comes to forums and is insulting, and abrasive.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
For me personally, I just don't play any game that has non-consentual PVP. Less drama that way.
You are obviously one of those weirdos that knows what he wants in a game and does his research. My guess is you watch YouTube videos, read reviews, and actually understand what you're purchasing before pulling out your wallet.
For me personally, I just don't play any game that has non-consentual PVP. Less drama that way.
You are obviously one of those weirdos that knows what he wants in a game and does his research. My guess is you watch YouTube videos, read reviews, and actually understand what you're purchasing before pulling out your wallet.
*points*
FREAAAAKKKKKKK!
I've been in this space a loooooong time. I do read the news and research what a game offers before committing, yes, but I've also had personal experience. I'm not going to decry something wholesale without first experiencing it myself. So yes, I've done my time in PVP games and on PVP servers, and have decided quietly that as far as MMORPGs go, it's not for me.
That's not to say I don't enjoy me some deathmatch in a shooter from time to time, but I know what I'm getting into and-- most importantly-- I'm not paying for the privilege of being someone else's whipping post (initial purchase of the game notwithstanding). That's what it ultimately came down to for me with subscription-based games. Is my monthly payment going to my enjoyment or someone else's?
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
I can honestly say I have never encountered the scenario you have outlined in points 1-6. Have you got an example game and instance so I can understand the events in there context.
On the official Legends of Aria forums the miners are complaining that high tier ores are located in PvP zones and concentrated in small areas obviously designed to facilitate PvP. They want the ores available everywhere so they can avoid PvP encounters altogether.
This despite the fact there are PvE servers (community) and that the game advertises itself as having PvP danger in game (see: Protector Video, main site).
I think what's happening is these people probably want to be invovled in PVP, but have a chance to gather or build up without being constantly stomped by developed pvpers giving them little chance.
IF ore is something that is necessary to compete then should it be isolated and controllable by a few people or should it be a bit more open to allow for pvp, but give more chance for the less skilled to get caught up?
Who are they worshipping? Are they secretly getting together on Discord to plan their own deaths in PvP hotspots? Sacrificing themselves to their all powerful god?
WTF are you talking about?
All praise Loothy, the goddess of phat loot. Receive the blood of this ganking heathen and grant us great epics in our next raid. Amen.
Who are they worshipping? Are they secretly getting together on Discord to plan their own deaths in PvP hotspots? Sacrificing themselves to their all powerful god?
WTF are you talking about?
All praise Loothy, the goddess of phat loot. Receive the blood of this ganking heathen and grant us great epics in our next raid. Amen.
I don't think the PvE crowd can offer the blood of 'ganking heathens' without becoming PvP players themselves. Maybe they can offer up carrot juice instead?
Someone using derogatory "modern speech" is not role playing.
Right, but that seems beside the point since it is common to every game/playstyle. I just witnessed a PvE tiff last night that was totally ridiculous. I wouldn't think of condemning PvE because of it.
That's true pve players can be just as bad. But all this goes to say is that there are bad pve players and bad pvp players. Both types of players (or any type of person" can be a bit cultish.
So the pve player who decries pvp players and hates that pvp exists anywhere is not so different from the pvp player who is verbally abusive, comes to forums and is insulting, and abrasive.
I guess I just don't see as many posts about PvE players that are personally insulting on the level that PvP players receive (for obvious reasons). PKs are typically called sociopaths, or 'stroking their epeen' and other, more graphically explicit descriptions.
I've seen PvE players called 'carebears' (which is a term I've always resented) but I don't know if PvE players get the absolute hatred and mind reading that goes on against the PK crowd.
Let's set that aside for a moment, because I don't really care who calls who more names.
The part that is interesting is this SMALL subset of PvE players that seem to feel PvP (PK) anywhere is always morally wrong. This is why they can insert themselves into a PVP game, a PVP zone and be self-righteously indignant when they are attacked. How else do you explain the reaction other than some innate belief that being attacked in a PVP zone - even in a PvP game - is wrong?
Someone using derogatory "modern speech" is not role playing.
Right, but that seems beside the point since it is common to every game/playstyle. I just witnessed a PvE tiff last night that was totally ridiculous. I wouldn't think of condemning PvE because of it.
That's true pve players can be just as bad. But all this goes to say is that there are bad pve players and bad pvp players. Both types of players (or any type of person" can be a bit cultish.
So the pve player who decries pvp players and hates that pvp exists anywhere is not so different from the pvp player who is verbally abusive, comes to forums and is insulting, and abrasive.
I guess I just don't see as many posts about PvE players that are personally insulting on the level that PvP players receive (for obvious reasons). PKs are typically called sociopaths, or 'stroking their epeen' and other, more graphically explicit descriptions.
I've seen PvE players called 'carebears' (which is a term I've always resented) but I don't know if PvE players get the absolute hatred and mind reading that goes on against the PK crowd.
Let's set that aside for a moment, because I don't really care who calls who more names.
The part that is interesting is this SMALL subset of PvE players that seem to feel PvP (PK) anywhere is always morally wrong. This is why they can insert themselves into a PVP game, a PVP zone and be self-righteously indignant when they are attacked. How else do you explain the reaction other than some innate belief that being attacked in a PVP zone - even in a PvP game - is wrong?
That is the mindset that is suprising.
The reason is because one has made a name for itself, as a group, of ruining others' experiences. There's a group of PvPers who can't just gank someone and move on; they need to make sure that gamer can't do anything but stare at their corpse.
PvE is, in general, cooperative. There aren't entire guilds of folks who camp out raid groups to ninja loot until the guild trying to farm it gives up. You can't, because you gotta be invited to the group and the first time you ninja you won't be invited again.
PvP requires a sort of players agency that enables them to have a far greater detrimental effect on others than PvE, at least in general.
The only thing I don't like about MMOs that have zoned PvP/PvE is when I'm really enjoying playing a class in PvE which gets nerfed because of balance issues in PvP. Other then that I like zoned games and having the option to do either when I want.
Plus there are so many flavors of PvP people may be referencing different types. There are two types of people when it comes to cults, those who get it and those who don't. I happen to be a proud member of the pc gaming cult.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The reason is because one has made a name for itself, as a group, of ruining others' experiences. There's a group of PvPers who can't just gank someone and move on; they need to make sure that gamer can't do anything but stare at their corpse.
PvE is, in general, cooperative. There aren't entire guilds of folks who camp out raid groups to ninja loot until the guild trying to farm it gives up. You can't, because you gotta be invited to the group and the first time you ninja you won't be invited again.
PvP requires a sort of players agency that enables them to have a far greater detrimental effect on others than PvE, at least in general.
I think if you log into a PvP game and you don't like PvP - well, I don't see the PK as the one ruining the experience. That is like sitting down to play chess and being upset when the other player takes one of your bishops.
To me running back to your corpse and getting PK'd repeatedly is like continuously throwing your pawn at the other guy's queen in a game of chess. At exactly what point do you begin to take responsibility for your game choices and actions?
If you keep throwing a pawn at the other guy's queen in a game of chess is he a 'griefer'? Is he stroking his chess 'epeen'? Does he live in in mother's basement? Maybe the name calling says more about the one calling names than the target?
I think you feel that by saying you're a PvE player and one that does not engage in PvP you do not suffer from the immediate assumption others would make about your rather fevered posts on this subject. Two threads on basically the same issue. Very suspicious my friend. Why don't you just admit it that you're a PvP player pissed at what is going on in your game.
not a cult.. but some of the hardcore pve only people are probably among the most toxic and immature people you can ever encounter.
let's just paint a picture for a second about a potential new game. it's got all the possible things you'd want in a game.. except they've not mentioned pvp.
someone comes to ask "will it have pvp?" and BAM! there they are throwing down votes and what not and spewing the most hateful garbage you can possibly imagine.
since i started playing online games i've always considered pve only players to be the most toxic of them all.
I think you feel that by saying you're a PvE player and one that does not engage in PvP you do not suffer from the immediate assumption others would make about your rather fevered posts on this subject. Two threads on basically the same issue. Very suspicious my friend. Why don't you just admit it that you're a PvP player pissed at what is going on in your game.
Those are two different issues: #1: People who don't read the packaging (regardless of the issue) #2: The cult like fervor of some PVE players to control all players everywhere.
I cannot admit that I'm an angry PvP player because I don't play a PvP game.
Ironically enough, I currently don't play Legends of Aria because I don't like PvP in games where someone ends up helpless. In short, I hate the exact same kind of play that you hate but I hate the game, not the playa- as the trite saying goes.
Now if you want to imagine that I'm actually a ruthless PvP god that is fine with me. I could use the street credentials.
I think you feel that by saying you're a PvE player and one that does not engage in PvP you do not suffer from the immediate assumption others would make about your rather fevered posts on this subject. Two threads on basically the same issue. Very suspicious my friend. Why don't you just admit it that you're a PvP player pissed at what is going on in your game.
Those are two different issues: #1: People who don't read the packaging (regardless of the issue) #2: The cult like fervor of some PVE players to control all players everywhere.
I cannot admit that I'm an angry PvP player because I don't play a PvP game.
Ironically enough, I currently don't play Legends of Aria because I don't like PvP in games where someone ends up helpless. In short, I hate the exact same kind of play that you hate but I hate the game, not the playa- as the trite saying goes.
Now if you want to imagine that I'm actually a ruthless PvP god that is fine with me. I could use the street credentials.
Good response. I am very pleased that you answered so humorously.
not a cult.. but some of the hardcore pve only people are probably among the most toxic and immature people you can ever encounter.
let's just paint a picture for a second about a potential new game. it's got all the possible things you'd want in a game.. except they've not mentioned pvp.
someone comes to ask "will it have pvp?" and BAM! there they are throwing down votes and what not and spewing the most hateful garbage you can possibly imagine.
since i started playing online games i've always considered pve only players to be the most toxic of them all.
I think, again, it's just bad people. Bad people are everywhere.
The EXACT thing has been seen in games that are pvp games. People are talking about it, someone comes in and asks if there will be a pve server and BAM! players are calling them carebears and worse and telling them to gtfo!
But, I can attest to bad pve players as I've played games where I've had the bad fortune of having to deal with their nonsense. But I've also dealt with the nonsense of pvp players.
So "bad people are bad."
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Good response. I am very pleased that you answered so humorously.
*plans his attack now that kitarad is relaxed and off-guard* *loots a Starbucks rewards card, Mentos, and a Justin Bieber fan letter from kitarad's corpse*
not a cult.. but some of the hardcore pve only people are probably among the most toxic and immature people you can ever encounter.
let's just paint a picture for a second about a potential new game. it's got all the possible things you'd want in a game.. except they've not mentioned pvp.
someone comes to ask "will it have pvp?" and BAM! there they are throwing down votes and what not and spewing the most hateful garbage you can possibly imagine.
since i started playing online games i've always considered pve only players to be the most toxic of them all.
I think, again, it's just bad people. Bad people are everywhere.
The EXACT thing has been seen in games that are pvp games. People are talking about it, someone comes in and asks if there will be a pve server and BAM! players are calling them carebears and worse and telling them to gtfo!
But, I can attest to bad pve players as I've played games where I've had the bad fortune of having to deal with their nonsense. But I've also dealt with the nonsense of pvp players.
So "bad people are bad."
yeah probably..
but when it comes to mmo's they're usually not pve exclusively or pvp exclusive. there's entire genres for that stuff. like it or not but mmo's tend to bring a little bit of both.
hence why i think the pve only folk tend to err more on the hostile side since it's a possibility they'll have to put up with it.
you're less likely to see a pvp only player doing the same since they'd probably not play an mmo to begin with.
Also, your example doesn't support your point. You claim they have an issue with PvP even if it's not happening with regards to their experience, but then use an example where the player is literally engaged by another in PvP.
I think if you enter a PvP game, enter a PvP server, enter a PvP zone, enter a PvP hotspot and insist that PvP not happen there - when there are hundreds of other options available - then you've got a problem with PvP that goes beyond not just liking it.
Why join a PvP server when a PvE server is available? The PvP free server is a button click away.
Some of these people (I'm guessing) may be so bitter that they actively try to destroy PvP everywhere. Perhaps they seek out the controversy because the idea of a PvP game succeeding would prove them wrong on a forum - that anyone, anywhere would engage in PvP bothers them so they insert themselves into the PvP game to destroy it.
How else do you explain the behavior? Cult does for me.
What you defining is entitlement not a cult.
The player feels that what they want/desire is more important than anyone else. They expect everyone to conform to them not to conform to others. The world is raising a bunch of entitled people who believe that they deserve everything and should be a prize for last place. A cult would be relatively small group of people having beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
Who are they worshipping? Are they secretly getting together on Discord to plan their own deaths in PvP hotspots? Sacrificing themselves to their all powerful god?
WTF are you talking about?
In path of exile, we worship, RNGesus, it is what gives us phat loot and what can keep us alive or kill us.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I think you feel that by saying you're a PvE player and one that does not engage in PvP you do not suffer from the immediate assumption others would make about your rather fevered posts on this subject. Two threads on basically the same issue. Very suspicious my friend. Why don't you just admit it that you're a PvP player pissed at what is going on in your game.
He fuels a third thread with these exact same positions over on the LOA forum site. A few posts are cut and paste from there to here.
One doesn't need to be a mind reader to recognize trolling.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
There was a time when the games used to be actual RPGs, where the focus was on developing and growing a character through questing, where the rewards included increasing stats as an abstract representation of a person living in the world and gaining life, martial, or general experience by doing those things in that world. In the real world it's go to school, work a job, socialize with people, etc. to increase your individual "stats" as it were. In a game, it's do quests, kill increasingly difficult mobs, get rewards, and get whatever the game represents as growth experience in the way of talent points, XP, and what have you.
Along the way, you get immersed in a story or help craft one of your own as you proceed through the game. For some PVP-centric people, the only goal is to gear up, stat up, and go kill the other guys, regardless of what the game's world has established is the cultural and societal norm.
Now, for some games, this works well. Warhammer, for example, is a setting built on perpetual war. Shooters and Battle Royale games as well. For MMORPGs, it's a bit tricky, because while there are enemy factions, not every interaction has to boil down to violence. The problem is few people want to try different routes. For the action-minded player, roleplaying out a diplomatic exchange is boring. For a small group of these PVP-centric players, PVP in and of itself is the goal, without any logical meaning behind it. An even smaller group completely eschews the RPG aspect altogether and those are the types that do the sh*t-talking in chat and generally make the game an unpleasant for those who'd rather avoid PVP.
Obviously, if someone willingly goes into a PVP focused game, he needs to be aware that that minority of PVP players will exist in some form, and they will encounter them. You either play in such a way as to avoid them, or you choose not to play the game.
For me personally, I just don't play any game that has non-consentual PVP. Less drama that way.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
*points*
FREAAAAKKKKKKK!
That's not to say I don't enjoy me some deathmatch in a shooter from time to time, but I know what I'm getting into and-- most importantly-- I'm not paying for the privilege of being someone else's whipping post (initial purchase of the game notwithstanding). That's what it ultimately came down to for me with subscription-based games. Is my monthly payment going to my enjoyment or someone else's?
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Maybe they can offer up carrot juice instead?
I've seen PvE players called 'carebears' (which is a term I've always resented) but I don't know if PvE players get the absolute hatred and mind reading that goes on against the PK crowd.
Let's set that aside for a moment, because I don't really care who calls who more names.
The part that is interesting is this SMALL subset of PvE players that seem to feel PvP (PK) anywhere is always morally wrong. This is why they can insert themselves into a PVP game, a PVP zone and be self-righteously indignant when they are attacked. How else do you explain the reaction other than some innate belief that being attacked in a PVP zone - even in a PvP game - is wrong?
That is the mindset that is suprising.
PvE is, in general, cooperative. There aren't entire guilds of folks who camp out raid groups to ninja loot until the guild trying to farm it gives up. You can't, because you gotta be invited to the group and the first time you ninja you won't be invited again.
PvP requires a sort of players agency that enables them to have a far greater detrimental effect on others than PvE, at least in general.
Plus there are so many flavors of PvP people may be referencing different types. There are two types of people when it comes to cults, those who get it and those who don't. I happen to be a proud member of the pc gaming cult.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
To me running back to your corpse and getting PK'd repeatedly is like continuously throwing your pawn at the other guy's queen in a game of chess. At exactly what point do you begin to take responsibility for your game choices and actions?
If you keep throwing a pawn at the other guy's queen in a game of chess is he a 'griefer'? Is he stroking his chess 'epeen'? Does he live in in mother's basement? Maybe the name calling says more about the one calling names than the target?
You brought it up in this thread too.
I think you feel that by saying you're a PvE player and one that does not engage in PvP you do not suffer from the immediate assumption others would make about your rather fevered posts on this subject. Two threads on basically the same issue. Very suspicious my friend. Why don't you just admit it that you're a PvP player pissed at what is going on in your game.
let's just paint a picture for a second about a potential new game.
it's got all the possible things you'd want in a game.. except they've not mentioned pvp.
someone comes to ask "will it have pvp?" and BAM! there they are throwing down votes and what not and spewing the most hateful garbage you can possibly imagine.
since i started playing online games i've always considered pve only players to be the most toxic of them all.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
#1: People who don't read the packaging (regardless of the issue)
#2: The cult like fervor of some PVE players to control all players everywhere.
I cannot admit that I'm an angry PvP player because I don't play a PvP game.
Ironically enough, I currently don't play Legends of Aria because I don't like PvP in games where someone ends up helpless. In short, I hate the exact same kind of play that you hate but I hate the game, not the playa - as the trite saying goes.
Now if you want to imagine that I'm actually a ruthless PvP god that is fine with me.
I could use the street credentials.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
*loots a Starbucks rewards card, Mentos, and a Justin Bieber fan letter from kitarad's corpse*
but when it comes to mmo's they're usually not pve exclusively or pvp exclusive. there's entire genres for that stuff. like it or not but mmo's tend to bring a little bit of both.
hence why i think the pve only folk tend to err more on the hostile side since it's a possibility they'll have to put up with it.
you're less likely to see a pvp only player doing the same since they'd probably not play an mmo to begin with.
I had fun once, it was terrible.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
One doesn't need to be a mind reader to recognize trolling.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon