Some PvE Players Are A Cult

WargfootYV · January 2019

I think it is time to admit that some PvE players are part of a cult.
What I mean is that they don't just hate PvP for themselves - they don't like it when it happens anywhere.

I say this as a PvE player who doesn't care if PvP is happening in a different game far away from me.
I realized this when discussing PvP on the Legends of Aria official forums.

Consider this sequence of events for a player who doesn't like PvP:

1: Buy a PvP game.
2: Log onto a PvP server.
3: Enter a PvP zone.
4: Find the hotspot for PvP.
5: Be there with an ill equipped character.
6: Raise hell on the forums when you get whacked.

^--- somehow, a player makes five bad choices in a row - five different choices that all seem to say "I want to PvP" but when the guy gets whacked the sociopath in that encounter is somehow the PK?

If you buy a PvP game when hundreds of PvE titles are available, and then enter a PvP server when PvE servers are available, and then enter a PvP zone when guarded zones are available, and then go to a PvP hotspot when much of the wilds are unused, and then do that with an ill equipped character while not liking PvP - and you think the PK is the problem - then you're part of a cult.

Panther2103 · January 2019

I don't necessarily think that is as common of an issue as you think. I know back in the day with games like WoW it was an issue because some people truly did not want to get ganked, but were forced to be on certain servers (before cross realm) due to their friends being on a PvP server.

Sure there are some cases of this now, but most people who are severely anti PvP are very vocal about it, and refuse to play any games that have it, and end up just complaining about how PvP ruins MMO's on here.

azzamasin · January 2019

No it's just that some of us understand that the original MMO's and their Pen and Paper RPG's were all PvE and the past has shown that a PvE ONLY game can and will succeed. Drama of PvP is not something many of us want in our games. I personally feel that PvP belongs in shooters and Survival games, both of which I enjoy at times but an RPG should never include any form of PvP.

Amathe · January 2019

Not liking something, or being against something, is not a cult.

Maybe the point is Some PvE players are against PvP even if they are not engaged in PvP themselves?

Sovrath · January 2019

While I agree with your position that a person should buy games they want and not games that have features they don't want, I think there are as many pvp players who can also be "cultish" or even a bit psychopathic.

In short, there are bad people in all walks of life.

TheDarkrayne · January 2019

Cult? LOL.

Who are they worshipping? Are they secretly getting together on Discord to plan their own deaths in PvP hotspots? Sacrificing themselves to their all powerful god?

WTF are you talking about?

WargfootYV · January 2019

Sovrath said:

While I agree with your position that a person should buy games they want and not games that have features they don't want, I think there are as many pvp players who can also be "cultish" or even a bit psychopathic.

In short, there are bad people in all walks of life.

True.
However, I'm not aware of this happening:

1: Buys a PvE only game.
2: Enters a PvE only server.
3: Enters a PvE only zone.
4: Find as PvE hotspot.
5: Has an unskilled PvE character.
6: Logs onto the forums and complains when PvP doesn't happen - tries to get the rules rewritten to support PvP - refers to the PvE crowd as "crazy".

Probably does happen though - I've just not seen it.

Sovrath · January 2019

WargfootYV said:

Sovrath said:

While I agree with your position that a person should buy games they want and not games that have features they don't want, I think there are as many pvp players who can also be "cultish" or even a bit psychopathic.

In short, there are bad people in all walks of life.

True.
However, I'm not aware of this happening:

1: Buys a PvE only game.
2: Enters a PvE only server.
3: Enters a PvE only zone.
4: Find as PvE hotspot.
5: Has an unskilled PvE character.
6: Logs onto the forums and complains when PvP doesn't happen - tries to get the rules rewritten to support PvP - refers to the PvE crowd as "crazy".

Probably does happen though - I've just not seen it.

Oh I know that happens as I've witnessed it many times.

But the pvp issue manifests in a whole other way where "a certain type of pvp player" isn't playing the game for "the game" but literally enjoys screwing people over "over and over."

At some point it should be acceptable not to camp a particular player or set of players ad nauseum and move on to other players. But there are players who feel it's acceptable to not only mow over other players but even do it with a group and then get verbally abusive about it.

I've seen this over and over as well.

WargfootYV · January 2019

Amathe said:

Not liking something, or being against something, is not a cult.

Maybe the point is Some PvE players are against PvP even if they are not engaged in PvP themselves?

When your universe is defined such that the moment you enter a game, regardless of the game's focus, ruleset, history, or playerbase - that the game must immediately conform to your PvE ruleset or the other players are, by definition, griefers/losers/lonely/bad people and the developers are inept, clueless, and cruel.

When the entire world must conform to you despite at least 5 bad, consecutive decisions or your part - and when your complaints are joined by an entire chorus of others who hate anonymous people on the internet and insult them endlessly - and when someone suggests that you play a different game and that is 'unreasonable' and 'persecution' then yes, that is a cult in any meaningful sense of the word.

Theocritus · January 2019

WHen we don't like it is when PVP is forced into a PVE game to draw in more players...Most of us have no issue if the game is PVP only. Its when so many games change their core game play to try and please PVPers that it becomes an issue, or we have to change our gameplay because of PVP.

Scot · January 2019

And on the eighth day he said, Let there be a realm created from the firmament and Lo! It shall only be PVE.

Interitus · January 2019

Or, more likely. People enter a pvp scenario, knowing exactly what they are getting into and complain on the forums when they suck at pvp.

WargfootYV · January 2019

Sovrath said:

But the pvp issue manifests in a whole other way where "a certain type of pvp player" isn't playing the game for "the game" but literally enjoys screwing people over "over and over."

Yes, that type of player exists.
No, it shouldn't matter at all.

Let's say I'm a PK and I try to establish a 'territory'. I do that by killing anyone who enters the area. If the same person enters the area multiple times they die multiple times. A PK may be 'forced' to do this for several reasons. Imagine if the PK only kills the same player twice and then grants immunity - then you're asking the PK to accept the following conditions:

1: The PK cannot claim the 'territory' or roleplay since other players are granted immunity.
2: The target with immunity may be a spy reporting out the PKs location/condition.
3: The moment the PK is attacked the player with immunity may join in and now the PK is outnumbered.

The point is that a PK attempting to roleplay control over an area can look very much like a griefer. There is really no way to tell what is going on behind the keyboard. I do not allow that people can read minds - and the PvE cultists like to do that a lot.

WargfootYV · January 2019

Theocritus said:

WHen we don't like it is when PVP is forced into a PVE game to draw in more players...Most of us have no issue if the game is PVP only. Its when so many games change their core game play to try and please PVPers that it becomes an issue, or we have to change our gameplay because of PVP.

What game has this happened in?
I've never seen that happen.

Bloodaxes · January 2019

WargfootYV said:

Consider this sequence of events for a player who doesn't like PvP:

1: Buy a PvP game.

If you buy a PvP game when hundreds of PvE titles are available, and then enter a PvP server when PvE servers are available, and then enter a PvP zone when guarded zones are available, and then go to a PvP hotspot when much of the wilds are unused, and then do that with an ill equipped character while not liking PvP - and you think the PK is the problem - then you're part of a cult.

See, your reasoning is a bit skewed; "If you buy a PvP game when hundreds of PvE titles are available..."

Name me any new mmo that focuses mainly on pve?
Name me any new mmo that focuses mainly on pvp?
Name me any new mmo that combines both play-styles together?

You'll get over 90% on the last question. While it's true that some people buy pvp games and complain, nowadays it's quite difficult to find one that doesn't try to cater for both sides only.

This constant banter about pve players coming into pvp games is pointless. The majority of titles releasing are going for the both play-style route which is terrible for both ends.

WargfootYV · January 2019

Interitus said:

Or, more likely. People enter a pvp scenario, knowing exactly what they are getting into and complain on the forums when they suck at pvp.

I think what happens is they read half the feature set with starry eyes and ignore the portions of the game they don't like not realizing that the rest of the player base isn't going to ignore those portions of the game.

MadFrenchie · January 2019

Some PvE players are a cult, as are PvP players.

Essentially, you're saying there are people on the extreme ends of a certain taste. That holds true for nearly every taste.

Also, your example doesn't support your point. You claim they have an issue with PvP even if it's not happening with regards to their experience, but then use an example where the player is literally engaged by another in PvP.

I think you may be looking at this from a skewed perspective. The "carebears" aren't unique, they're just the ones who dislike PvP and like PvE the most, just like those who dislike PvE and like PvP the most.

Amathe · January 2019

WargfootYV said:

then yes, that is a cult in any meaningful sense of the word.

No it isn't. It's people being selfish, disagreeable, and disrespectful. Different things altogether.

WargfootYV · January 2019

MadFrenchie said:

Also, your example doesn't support your point. You claim they have an issue with PvP even if it's not happening with regards to their experience, but then use an example where the player is literally engaged by another in PvP.

I think if you enter a PvP game, enter a PvP server, enter a PvP zone, enter a PvP hotspot and insist that PvP not happen there - when there are hundreds of other options available - then you've got a problem with PvP that goes beyond not just liking it.

Why join a PvP server when a PvE server is available?
The PvP free server is a button click away.

Some of these people (I'm guessing) may be so bitter that they actively try to destroy PvP everywhere. Perhaps they seek out the controversy because the idea of a PvP game succeeding would prove them wrong on a forum - that anyone, anywhere would engage in PvP bothers them so they insert themselves into the PvP game to destroy it.

How else do you explain the behavior?
Cult does for me.

Moxom914 · January 2019

i personally hate pvp. yes, i suck at it. the reason i hate it is because there is no progression for doing it. its just mindless killing with no real goal other than to stroke an epeen. i would do it if it meant character progression even though i would probably hate it.

Sovrath · January 2019

WargfootYV said:

Sovrath said:

But the pvp issue manifests in a whole other way where "a certain type of pvp player" isn't playing the game for "the game" but literally enjoys screwing people over "over and over."

Yes, that type of player exists.
No, it shouldn't matter at all.

Let's say I'm a PK and I try to establish a 'territory'. I do that by killing anyone who enters the area. If the same person enters the area multiple times they die multiple times. A PK may be 'forced' to do this for several reasons. Imagine if the PK only kills the same player twice and then grants immunity - then you're asking the PK to accept the following conditions:

1: The PK cannot claim the 'territory' or roleplay since other players are granted immunity.
2: The target with immunity may be a spy reporting out the PKs location/condition.
3: The moment the PK is attacked the player with immunity may join in and now the PK is outnumbered.

The point is that a PK attempting to roleplay control over an area can look very much like a griefer. There is really no way to tell what is going on behind the keyboard. I do not allow that people can read minds - and the PvE cultists like to do that a lot.

The issue being how they treat other players.

In Lineage 2 I had a guy become insulting because we had a huge fight, won, and afterwards got into a good conversation with the leader of the opposing alliance. We decided to rez him and then one of our own side passes us by and gets insulting because of it.

While I'm sure there are role playing pvp players they seem to be a minority. And "role playing" usually entails taking on the persona of a character that is also tied to the world and the culture/lore of that world.

Someone using derogatory "modern speech" is not role playing.

Bloodaxes · January 2019

Interitus said:

Or, more likely. People enter a pvp scenario, knowing exactly what they are getting into and complain on the forums when they suck at pvp.

This is very true.

What the majority think it's pve players complaining in "their" pvp game, it's actually pvp players. Some form of ruleset needs to be placed even in a pvp game for it to be "fair", else it'll be an endless gankfest that many will steer clear from.

Interitus · January 2019

WargfootYV said:

Sovrath said:

But the pvp issue manifests in a whole other way where "a certain type of pvp player" isn't playing the game for "the game" but literally enjoys screwing people over "over and over."

Yes, that type of player exists.
No, it shouldn't matter at all.

Let's say I'm a PK and I try to establish a 'territory'. I do that by killing anyone who enters the area. If the same person enters the area multiple times they die multiple times. A PK may be 'forced' to do this for several reasons. Imagine if the PK only kills the same player twice and then grants immunity - then you're asking the PK to accept the following conditions:

1: The PK cannot claim the 'territory' or roleplay since other players are granted immunity.
2: The target with immunity may be a spy reporting out the PKs location/condition.
3: The moment the PK is attacked the player with immunity may join in and now the PK is outnumbered.

The point is that a PK attempting to roleplay control over an area can look very much like a griefer. There is really no way to tell what is going on behind the keyboard. I do not allow that people can read minds - and the PvE cultists like to do that a lot.

There are actual games out right now with territory control. If you want that, go play one of those games. Don't try to add some random territory gameplay into a game that doesn't support that and hide under the guise of roleplaying.

WargfootYV · January 2019

Sovrath said:
Someone using derogatory "modern speech" is not role playing.

Right, but that seems beside the point since it is common to every game/playstyle.
I just witnessed a PvE tiff last night that was totally ridiculous.
I wouldn't think of condemning PvE because of it.

WargfootYV · January 2019

Sharne said:

I can honestly say I have never encountered the scenario you have outlined in points 1-6. Have you got an example game and instance so I can understand the events in there context.

On the official Legends of Aria forums the miners are complaining that high tier ores are located in PvP zones and concentrated in small areas obviously designed to facilitate PvP. They want the ores available everywhere so they can avoid PvP encounters altogether.

This despite the fact there are PvE servers (community) and that the game advertises itself as having PvP danger in game (see: Protector Video, main site).

WargfootYV · January 2019

Interitus said:

There are actual games out right now with territory control. If you want that, go play one of those games. Don't try to add some random territory gameplay into a game that doesn't support that and hide under the guise of roleplaying.

The game does support it.
You whack people who come into your territory.
Done.

It is in the lawless zone - where people can set up their own laws - that is advertised in the official marketing material.

Apparently some people want to set up laws on the forums instead of in the game.
I know it is hard, but step outside the cult and just admit: Those guys are idiots.

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