What's considered hard combat?

Cryomatrix · January 2019

So I was looking at another thread and people mention how the combat is so easy and such. It got me thinking of what is actually considered hard?

I played WoW and thought the combat was smooth but boring, same with LOTRO, and practically every other game I played. Tera was a bit different in that it required some dodging. GW2/SWG/Project entropia all had similar combat.

I kind of thought Mortal Online was more difficult than any of the tab targeting due to first person and distance actually matters.
EVE combat is intricate and is mainly based on your setup and your positioning

Path of Exile combat is kind of different than the MMO because it is based on how you setup your character and when you play in HC, RNG can either save you or kill you. It is more about positioning and dodging as you level up. The main determinant of combat in PoE is how you setup your char. Either go tank and facetank or go class cannon and wipe the screen blank with a press of a button.

Conan Exiles combat is a bit harder than regular MMO.

But overall, what determines how hard combat is?

I'd break it down to components. These are my arbitrary components, i'm interested in seeing what other people think.

Easiest: Facetanking with minimal character setup
Easy: Facetanking with moderate character setup
Less easy: Position matters
Moderate: Position and minimal character setup
Difficult: Position and moderate character setup
More Difficult: Position, moderate character setup, and knowledge of the enemy
Most Difficult: Position, moderate character setup, and knowledge of the enemy + the enemy is overpowered by design

NorseGod · January 2019

I know what @Kyleran is going to answer, because I have a rare, leaked image from his basement confirming this.

Foncl · January 2019

It's difficult to generalise what makes combat hard I think, it depends so much on how each game is played.

Some games are hard mainly because of the knowledge needed to perform well. Once you have the knowledge, it's not necessarily hard to perform well based on it. I think games like EvE and Path of Exile fall into this category. The difficulty lies mostly in preparing well and having the knowledge to be able to deal with many different situations, so you know what to expect in advance if possible and what to do in any given situation.

Other games are more mechanically demanding, people might know what they should be doing but they don't have the muscle memory or mechanical skills to perform it. StarCraft is a mechanically hard game where you need to press buttons very quickly to play well and I guess you could say the same for a game like Quake, where many struggle to learn the movement well.

Few games are hard based purely on the knowledge or mechanical skill needed to perform well though, it's usually a mix of both. Combat in most MMORPG's requires more knowledge and preparation than mechanical skill to do well I would say, especially in PvE.

FlyByKnight · January 2019

OWPVP. Hands down, no debate, and empirically substantiated on MMORPG.com.

Mendel · January 2019

I'm not a reflex gamer, never have been. I prefer time to think and choose an option rather than be forced to make a decision based of reaction time. So, I'd say that anything that has any semblance of real-time to be harder than I'd like. Also, games where perspective matters (i.e., how far I am from a target) drive me batty. That relies on my graphics card, my monitor, the target's model and my eyesight to be successful. That's why I think Conan Exiles is an example of the hardest combat for me.

Amathe · January 2019

There are so many factors. Too numerous to list. Some PvE examples would be:

The likelihood of defeating an adversary.

Manual dexterity needed.

Amount of thought required to succeed (parrying an attack and then reposting, for instance. Ducking a head shot, Jumping to avoid a leg sweep. And so on.

The amount of time you have to make decisions.

The amount of time to complete the overall encounter before, say, an enrage.

A mob's resistance to your attacks.

A mob's total health.

A mob's special attacks.

Scorchien · January 2019

FlyByKnight said:

OWPVP. Hands down, no debate, and empirically substantiated on MMORPG.com.

IME that really depends on the game ...

Warhammer for ex.. i played alot to RR 93 , and when i saw an enemy Disiple or Squig for ex .. I knew exactly what they would do and exactly what i needed to counter/exploit , Became easier than some PVE TBH ..

A game like UO which ive been active in for 21 years now , you have no idea what is running at you , and makes for much more challenging PVP ..

But in general i agree , if there are not pigeon toed classes , If there are the combat becomes reduntant

Asheram · January 2019

Mount & Blade Warband.

hallucigenocide · January 2019

not twitch combat even though people likes to claim that.
the style doesn't really matter.. it's all about how it makes you interact with it.
even a hardcore tab target player can learn to dodge out of visible telegraphs.

for it to be seen as hard it would need to adapt to how you approach things. similar to how you would in pvp scenarios.

Shaigh · January 2019

Hardest combat is without a doubt coordinating lots of people where errors from one person cause everyone to fail.

Difficult combat is when you are forced to time your attacks and defensive abilities and failing to do so results in your death.

Games that force you to be mobile are much harder than games where you can be static.

Games where you don't have to adapt to what your enemy does are generally easy.

FlyByKnight · January 2019

If any developer wants to make combat hard just make the NPC crouch and stand up real fast 5 times in a row over a players body and say "Get rekt". I promise, there will be 40 page forum threads about how the bosses and mobs need to be toned down or removed from the game.

Sovrath · January 2019

parrotpholk said:

Fine line between hard and tedious / boring.

Dark Souls is what many consider to be hard but I found it more tedious than hard as having boss fights with huge health pools and attacks that hit like a truck while you hit like a gnat does not to me equal hard.

Hard to me would be mastering a specific combat style or mechanic to run as efficiently as possible.

Sure it's hard. It might not be engaging to you but it's "hard."

The Elder Scrolls games have a similar system where "hard mode" just means you do less damage and they do more.

It's stupid but it makes the game "harder."

Some people think that requiring one to use "their brain" is the only thing that can add to difficulty.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to climb Mt. Washington. But it can't be done by everyone.

There is a difference between hard and engaging.

Kyleran · January 2019

NorseGod said:

I know what @Kyleran is going to answer, because I have a rare, leaked image from his basement confirming this.

Well, being an "older" cat any combat which disturbs my napping schedule (or Netflix viewing) is probably more challenge than I'm interested in.

Octagon7711 · January 2019

As long as combat isn't overly complicated and doesn't feel needlessly so, I'm happy.

Lokero · January 2019

Game designers almost exclusively avoid "hard" combat because then people cry and rage and don't play those games anymore. Times have changed from when games were designed to make you fail and spend more quarters.

Old NES games were "hard". But, that was as much about the systems(weak controls) and lack of ability to save/continue as it was about the games. Shout out to those PITA games like Kid Icarus, Battletoads, and Ninja Gaiden.

Many claim that the reason Dark Souls is considered "hard" is for the same reasons(controls, etc.). But, regardless of why, Dark Souls definitely ranks up there today as one of the harder series.

Honestly, any game is pretty easy with the ability to constantly save progress at-will.

NorseGod · January 2019

Kyleran said:

NorseGod said:

I know what @Kyleran is going to answer, because I have a rare, leaked image from his basement confirming this.

Well, being an "older" cat any combat which disturbs my napping schedule (or Netflix viewing) is probably more challenge than I'm interested in.

@Kyleran ;Plays EVE, 2015

Image: https://forums.mmorpg.com/uploads/editor/vs/9lzook878wdh.jpg

Caffynated · January 2019

There are a lot of ways to make a game difficult.

Complexity: Having a lot of abilities that work together in unique ways to produce different effects. Having a system with lots of counters, reactionaries, and resource system that requires careful management makes combat much more difficult. The more complex a system, the more it relies on reading your opponent and playing against them rather than mastering a rotation. It's also difficult to keep track of 40 cooldowns, and a dozen buff/debuff timers not just on yourself, but on potentially multiple enemies and allies as well.

Unforgiving: Making it difficult to recover from mistakes, and having a limited resource pool to limit how many mistakes you can recover from adds a ton of difficulty. Dark Souls is the best example of this. It's rare that you instantly die, but making a series of mistakes can seal your fate long before you actually get killed. Healthy recovery is limited and leaves you vulnerable requiring you to use it during openings, or even to create an opening yourself.

Speed: Faster games are undeniably more difficult. In chess, there are many people who can play at a grand masters level on email chess services, but there are few who can play at that level in face to face settings where you have a limited amount of time to read what's happening, decide and act. The more you speed things up, the less you will be able to take in, the less time you have to consider the outcomes and the more mistakes you will make. Starcraft is a good example. You make a lot of decisions and take a lot of actions in a very short span of time.

Quizzical · January 2019

For the most part, it's not the mechanics of combat that make it hard. Lots of combat could be made hard simply by tripling how much damage all enemies do whenever they hit you.

I think that the better definition of hard combat is what it takes to win or lose.

Easiest: game plays itself for you and you can't lose
Easy: Will usually win even if you're not particularly trying
Medium: Will reliably win if you make a serious effort, but commonly fail if you don't
Hard: Most players will usually win but sometimes lose even if they're really trying their best
Hardest: Commonly lose even when doing your best, and many players can't beat it at all

Iselin · January 2019

Hard combat in games is when you don't know the builds, tricks and choreography that makes it easy.

H0urg1ass · January 2019

Iselin said:

Hard combat in games is when you don't know the builds, tricks and choreography that makes it easy.

I would take it a step further and say that it's where the game doesn't give you the underlying math for anything, or for very little.

What I like about this is that in games with character builds, any that work reliably are good and therefore there's not one best build that everyone in the class has to use.

iixviiiix · January 2019

Basically when you only have 2-3 attack turn to kill a boss that can 1 hit kill you .

And You have to wish for miracle where 3 turn critical with max damage. it take me more than a week to get that miracle with 2h gamble each day .

Iselin · January 2019

H0urg1ass said:

Iselin said:

Hard combat in games is when you don't know the builds, tricks and choreography that makes it easy.

I would take it a step further and say that it's where the game doesn't give you the underlying math for anything, or for very little.

What I like about this is that in games with character builds, any that work reliably are good and therefore there's not one best build that everyone in the class has to use.

I think a lot of developers gave up on that when players got out their spreadsheets and a reliable boss spawn somewhere, figured it out and spread the word. They don't try to hide it nearly as much as they used to.

But I agree, metas take a lot of the fun out of it.

ConstantineMerus · January 2019

Kyleran said:

NorseGod said:

I know what @Kyleran is going to answer, because I have a rare, leaked image from his basement confirming this.

Well, being an "older" cat any combat which disturbs my napping schedule (or Netflix viewing) is probably more challenge than I'm interested in.

No worries mate, your whimsical wit would make up for your combat clunkiness. Any party should be proud to have ya onboard. I'll carry you to the depths of hell myself!

some dark dungeon in the future...

ConstantineMerus: "Heal the tank up, Kyleran! Now! WTF are you doing?"

Kyleran: "Sorry, Tony has finally proposed to Tina! I've been waiting for this moment for like 8 seasons. Did it make you cry too?"

CM: "Oh I'm crying alright!"

ConstantineMerus · January 2019

parrotpholk said:

Fine line between hard and tedious / boring.

Dark Souls is what many consider to be hard but I found it more tedious than hard as having boss fights with huge health pools and attacks that hit like a truck while you hit like a gnat does not to me equal hard.

Hard to me would be mastering a specific combat style or mechanic to run as efficiently as possible.

Larger bosses' health pool makes the fights longer hence increasing the chance of making mistakes and their devastating damage makes the players' mistakes to be fatal. The system results in increasing the chance of failure.

This is the oldest method to make a game difficult and it has been there since dawn of video games, not invented by Dark Souls.

DS introduced two (sort of) new mechanics that added to the difficulty:

1) Souls or experience points obtained since last level up being dropped upon death. Which is more forgiving than dropping gear (for instance like Diablo 1), but less forgiving due to losing the gathered XP completely upon another death before picking them up.

2) Making the trash mobs strong and capable of killing the player. This made almost all encounters potentially fatal and again increasing the chance of failure.

You might find the mechanics boring, but it is difficult nonetheless.

Kyleran · January 2019

ConstantineMerus said:

Kyleran said:

NorseGod said:

I know what @Kyleran is going to answer, because I have a rare, leaked image from his basement confirming this.

Well, being an "older" cat any combat which disturbs my napping schedule (or Netflix viewing) is probably more challenge than I'm interested in.

No worries mate, your whimsical wit would make up for your combat clunkiness. Any party should be proud to have ya onboard. I'll carry you to the depths of hell myself!

some dark dungeon in the future...

ConstantineMerus: "Heal the tank up, Kyleran! Now! WTF are you doing?"

Kyleran: "Sorry, Tony has finally proposed to Tina! I've been waiting for this moment for like 8 seasons. Did it make you cry too?"

CM: "Oh I'm crying alright!"

Well, it's either that or what really happened one night while gathering everyone to rush Onyxia.

Sitting there with raid leader droning on and on about how to run the fight when suddenly my head snaps up and I'm right at her feet (was a Druid healer) and the raid leader is screaming in my headset, "KYLE , WTF ARE YOU DOING???" (-250 DKP)

Needless to say the raid wiped but fortunately a few rezzers got away; still delayed everything by 30 min or so.

Someday I'll share how I lost 1000 DKP in BWL.

AlBQuirky · January 2019

For me, the "hardest combat" in an MMORPG was Everquest. Nothing was automatic as spells failed, attacks missed, and dodge was not the click of a button, but a skill that your character had. White con'd monsters were even with you and there was a 50/50 chance of winning solo. It wasn't about "positioning." It wasn't about "button mashing" just right. It was all about RNG and the separation of the character from the player.

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What's considered hard combat?

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV