I can't see how you can disagree with point 3. If I put in 20 hours of gameplay to get my character to level 50 and you put in 5 hours of gameplay to get your character to level 10, and we were to fight, would you complain that I had a huge advantage just because I put in more time? How is Realm Rank different? The Realm Rank system in DAoC gave a bit of an advantage but it didn't make higher RR characters unbeatable by lower RR characters. It just gave people something to work for past standard leveling that could only be obtained by actually participating in RvR (except for that weird Doppel thing they did in DF for a short time).
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. RvR games that gate pvp through that kind of level/power gap are terrible. One of the best things about GW2 and ESO's RvR systems is that those kind of power gaps have been mostly eliminated and replaced by a more organic horizontal progression system.
I don't know how vast the power gaps are in DAOC, but in WAR they were ridiculous. That kind of set up should be left in the dust of history or for more pve focused games.
I never notice the RR making any difference. The team size are never balanced anyway. And it is RvR, not 1v1. Your power level never make much difference.
If it doesn't make a difference then don't have it.
I can't see how you can disagree with point 3. If I put in 20 hours of gameplay to get my character to level 50 and you put in 5 hours of gameplay to get your character to level 10, and we were to fight, would you complain that I had a huge advantage just because I put in more time? How is Realm Rank different? The Realm Rank system in DAoC gave a bit of an advantage but it didn't make higher RR characters unbeatable by lower RR characters. It just gave people something to work for past standard leveling that could only be obtained by actually participating in RvR (except for that weird Doppel thing they did in DF for a short time).
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. RvR games that gate pvp through that kind of level/power gap are terrible. One of the best things about GW2 and ESO's RvR systems is that those kind of power gaps have been mostly eliminated and replaced by a more organic horizontal progression system.
I don't know how vast the power gaps are in DAOC, but in WAR they were ridiculous. That kind of set up should be left in the dust of history or for more pve focused games.
To the contrary, I think it's one of the reasons that DAoC stood the test of time. It actually gave people another reason to RvR. Just speaking for me personally, but if I want a balanced experience I will go play games like the Battlefield series or PUBG. In an MMORPG I want that feeling of difference. I want the enemy to be different races, classes, skills... and yes.. levels.
It's not for everyone, and obviously the balanced, horizontal experience is waaaaay more popular (Fortnite just made $3 Billion...) but the OP wanted to know why we lost interest in GW2 RvR. And for me, it was because everyone was the same...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I can't see how you can disagree with point 3. If I put in 20 hours of gameplay to get my character to level 50 and you put in 5 hours of gameplay to get your character to level 10, and we were to fight, would you complain that I had a huge advantage just because I put in more time? How is Realm Rank different? The Realm Rank system in DAoC gave a bit of an advantage but it didn't make higher RR characters unbeatable by lower RR characters. It just gave people something to work for past standard leveling that could only be obtained by actually participating in RvR (except for that weird Doppel thing they did in DF for a short time).
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. RvR games that gate pvp through that kind of level/power gap are terrible. One of the best things about GW2 and ESO's RvR systems is that those kind of power gaps have been mostly eliminated and replaced by a more organic horizontal progression system.
I don't know how vast the power gaps are in DAOC, but in WAR they were ridiculous. That kind of set up should be left in the dust of history or for more pve focused games.
To the contrary, I think it's one of the reasons that DAoC stood the test of time. It actually gave people another reason to RvR. Just speaking for me personally, but if I want a balanced experience I will go play games like the Battlefield series or PUBG. In an MMORPG I want that feeling of difference. I want the enemy to be different races, classes, skills... and yes.. levels.
It's not for everyone, and obviously the balanced, horizontal experience is waaaaay more popular (Fortnite just made $3 Billion...) but the OP wanted to know why we lost interest in GW2 RvR. And for me, it was because everyone was the same...
I was never a fan of WvW in GW2, and it's hard to narrow it down to a singular cause. There's a lot of large and small issues that add up.
The rewards are ass.
WvW is also the most expensive mode to play (if you're not selfish), due to the cost of siege equipment and food buffs needed to be at one's peak.
No real incentive for smaller strike teams. It's pretty much large zergs for large objectives and 1-3 man roaming groups for camps.
Most of the siege weaponry is irrelevant or niche case.
Little incentive to defend objectives.
PvE players forced to play against their will for certain legendary collection items.
No servers with an even experience. You're either in massive, boring zerg wars on a huge server (like my Blackgate) or in a dead war with nothing going on.
Traveling to get to your zerg is often futile and frustrating due to the prevalence of ganking thieves.
I can't see how you can disagree with point 3. If I put in 20 hours of gameplay to get my character to level 50 and you put in 5 hours of gameplay to get your character to level 10, and we were to fight, would you complain that I had a huge advantage just because I put in more time? How is Realm Rank different? The Realm Rank system in DAoC gave a bit of an advantage but it didn't make higher RR characters unbeatable by lower RR characters. It just gave people something to work for past standard leveling that could only be obtained by actually participating in RvR (except for that weird Doppel thing they did in DF for a short time).
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. RvR games that gate pvp through that kind of level/power gap are terrible. One of the best things about GW2 and ESO's RvR systems is that those kind of power gaps have been mostly eliminated and replaced by a more organic horizontal progression system.
I don't know how vast the power gaps are in DAOC, but in WAR they were ridiculous. That kind of set up should be left in the dust of history or for more pve focused games.
To the contrary, I think it's one of the reasons that DAoC stood the test of time. It actually gave people another reason to RvR. Just speaking for me personally, but if I want a balanced experience I will go play games like the Battlefield series or PUBG. In an MMORPG I want that feeling of difference. I want the enemy to be different races, classes, skills... and yes.. levels.
It's not for everyone, and obviously the balanced, horizontal experience is waaaaay more popular (Fortnite just made $3 Billion...) but the OP wanted to know why we lost interest in GW2 RvR. And for me, it was because everyone was the same...
Are you still actively playing DAOC?
I go back every so often and still have it on my harddrive. Keep in mind that it IS a 17 year old game. But it's still chugging along.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I was never a fan of WvW in GW2, and it's hard to narrow it down to a singular cause. There's a lot of large and small issues that add up.
The rewards are ass.
WvW is also the most expensive mode to play (if you're not selfish), due to the cost of siege equipment and food buffs needed to be at one's peak.
No real incentive for smaller strike teams. It's pretty much large zergs for large objectives and 1-3 man roaming groups for camps.
Most of the siege weaponry is irrelevant or niche case.
Little incentive to defend objectives.
PvE players forced to play against their will for certain legendary collection items.
No servers with an even experience. You're either in massive, boring zerg wars on a huge server (like my Blackgate) or in a dead war with nothing going on.
Traveling to get to your zerg is often futile and frustrating due to the prevalence of ganking thieves.
This is what I call an insightful post. Someone who actually knows and loves the game giving relevant feedback.
I see a lot of the above points coming up again and again. Especially concerning the issues with objectives, zergs, and expense. For me another major issue is the lack of "realm" pride, since it all just seems to be teams of rotating colors/servers. Somehow the game's flow doesn't feel so much like an epic war between factions, but rather a point accumulator.
I was never a fan of WvW in GW2, and it's hard to narrow it down to a singular cause. There's a lot of large and small issues that add up.
The rewards are ass.
WvW is also the most expensive mode to play (if you're not selfish), due to the cost of siege equipment and food buffs needed to be at one's peak.
No real incentive for smaller strike teams. It's pretty much large zergs for large objectives and 1-3 man roaming groups for camps.
Most of the siege weaponry is irrelevant or niche case.
Little incentive to defend objectives.
PvE players forced to play against their will for certain legendary collection items.
No servers with an even experience. You're either in massive, boring zerg wars on a huge server (like my Blackgate) or in a dead war with nothing going on.
Traveling to get to your zerg is often futile and frustrating due to the prevalence of ganking thieves.
This is what I call an insightful post. Someone who actually knows and loves the game giving relevant feedback.
I see a lot of the above points coming up again and again. Especially concerning the issues with objectives, zergs, and expense. For me another major issue is the lack of "realm" pride, since it all just seems to be teams of rotating colors/servers. Somehow the game's flow doesn't feel so much like an epic war between factions, but rather a point accumulator.
I try. Though I couldn't tell you anything about the meta, as I'm not active enough in WvW to be knowledgeable of such.
Lack of realm pride is a huge factor. My favorite RvR game ever was an unassuming, pay to win Asian MMO called Aika online. It still used servers rather than proper factions, but server identity was a huge factor because each server had its own player government with a ruling alliance that could set taxes. That ruling alliance was pretty much responsible for organizing the realm PvP for their server, and this PvP involved entering opposing servers, breaking through their defenses, stealing one of their shrine relics, returning to your server, and delivering it to your shrine for server-wide PvE bonuses, all while the other realm chases and attempts to stop you. It was a unique and interesting approach that I would love to have seen in a better game, like GW2.
I can't see how you can disagree with point 3. If I put in 20 hours of gameplay to get my character to level 50 and you put in 5 hours of gameplay to get your character to level 10, and we were to fight, would you complain that I had a huge advantage just because I put in more time? How is Realm Rank different? The Realm Rank system in DAoC gave a bit of an advantage but it didn't make higher RR characters unbeatable by lower RR characters. It just gave people something to work for past standard leveling that could only be obtained by actually participating in RvR (except for that weird Doppel thing they did in DF for a short time).
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. RvR games that gate pvp through that kind of level/power gap are terrible. One of the best things about GW2 and ESO's RvR systems is that those kind of power gaps have been mostly eliminated and replaced by a more organic horizontal progression system.
I don't know how vast the power gaps are in DAOC, but in WAR they were ridiculous. That kind of set up should be left in the dust of history or for more pve focused games.
I never notice the RR making any difference. The team size are never balanced anyway. And it is RvR, not 1v1. Your power level never make much difference.
If it doesn't make a difference then don't have it.
It don't have to be power gap. There should be some thing different between a normal and hardcore player. When I play warhammer you see a high RR enemy and you get excited because only high RR enemy drop certain item. There is more of a sense in community in warhammer because all the guild work together. The high RR players are usually the leader of the server.
For GW2, you never have a sense of community. I think the main problem is most people in GW2 isn't RvR players. While you know everyone playing warhammer or DAOC play it to RvR.
Looking for feedback and information from MMO gamers that enjoy RvR or Faction vs Faction pvp in MMOs of the past. Can be from any game with a Faction based pvp really, from DAoC to Old AV instanced pvp in WoW.
Some of you may not know this but Guild Wars2 developer Arena Net have run into a dilemma in which the WvW population and interest has dropped and balance of numbers gone haywire. WvW 7 year ago was a major hyped up feature around this forum. But something went wrong and didn't appeal to the masses like many had hoped it would.
My question is this, for those of you that have experience playing World vs World feature in Guild Wars2, what exactly turned you off about it and made you drop interest? What could change about it to bring you back long term?
#1 turnoff for me is the wh0ole scoreboard and season bullshit, and nothing truly belonged to you so you didn't really care if the enemy took anything and who cares when it all just resets anyway? Didn't help that keeps could be taken in minutes, which is f'ing stupid. The whole strategy ended up being "let them take it, we'll come back and take it in a bit".
They had a chance to really make this awesome and they blew it.
I was never a fan of WvW in GW2, and it's hard to narrow it down to a singular cause. There's a lot of large and small issues that add up.
The rewards are ass.
WvW is also the most expensive mode to play (if you're not selfish), due to the cost of siege equipment and food buffs needed to be at one's peak.
No real incentive for smaller strike teams. It's pretty much large zergs for large objectives and 1-3 man roaming groups for camps.
Most of the siege weaponry is irrelevant or niche case.
Little incentive to defend objectives.
PvE players forced to play against their will for certain legendary collection items.
No servers with an even experience. You're either in massive, boring zerg wars on a huge server (like my Blackgate) or in a dead war with nothing going on.
Traveling to get to your zerg is often futile and frustrating due to the prevalence of ganking thieves.
This is what I call an insightful post. Someone who actually knows and loves the game giving relevant feedback.
I see a lot of the above points coming up again and again. Especially concerning the issues with objectives, zergs, and expense. For me another major issue is the lack of "realm" pride, since it all just seems to be teams of rotating colors/servers. Somehow the game's flow doesn't feel so much like an epic war between factions, but rather a point accumulator.
I try. Though I couldn't tell you anything about the meta, as I'm not active enough in WvW to be knowledgeable of such.
Lack of realm pride is a huge factor. My favorite RvR game ever was an unassuming, pay to win Asian MMO called Aika online. It still used servers rather than proper factions, but server identity was a huge factor because each server had its own player government with a ruling alliance that could set taxes. That ruling alliance was pretty much responsible for organizing the realm PvP for their server, and this PvP involved entering opposing servers, breaking through their defenses, stealing one of their shrine relics, returning to your server, and delivering it to your shrine for server-wide PvE bonuses, all while the other realm chases and attempts to stop you. It was a unique and interesting approach that I would love to have seen in a better game, like GW2.
You make me missed my Pran . *cry*
Well , pvp in Aika pretty unique compare to most PVP mmorpg i play in last 10 years . Sadly that game is have too many limited .
Looking for feedback and information from MMO gamers that enjoy RvR or Faction vs Faction pvp in MMOs of the past. Can be from any game with a Faction based pvp really, from DAoC to Old AV instanced pvp in WoW.
Some of you may not know this but Guild Wars2 developer Arena Net have run into a dilemma in which the WvW population and interest has dropped and balance of numbers gone haywire. WvW 7 year ago was a major hyped up feature around this forum. But something went wrong and didn't appeal to the masses like many had hoped it would.
My question is this, for those of you that have experience playing World vs World feature in Guild Wars2, what exactly turned you off about it and made you drop interest? What could change about it to bring you back long term?
1. Rotating "worlds" meant no true feeling of war against other realms 2. Mirrored classes meant no feeling about fighting "them". Everyone was the same. 3. No realm pride because of the above
This^ pretty much exactly. It was also pretty confusing to get in to.
Despite certain people here with opinions that RvR is "lazy" or automatically means less quality in a game, I think when implemented properly it can bring a whole new level of immersion to a game.
I hate to go back to it (no, I don't) but SWG was like that. Now, up front, I admit the mechanics left a lot to be desired, but the ideas were great, imo. Role players loved it because you could dress as a stormtrooper or imp officer and go beat rebels and vice versa. To me this was great. If you did not feel like participating in the galactic battle, you didn't have to. These were the best ideas I have seen thus far.
I know this IP isn't sword and board like you were asking for specifically, but there is a lot of buy-in for a person that has a reason to pvp beyond just them and us. Building bases to defend, have a unique identity for your "team" all of these things can bring meaning to a PvP scenario. Then sometimes you just want to go capture a flag.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I can't see how you can disagree with point 3. If I put in 20 hours of gameplay to get my character to level 50 and you put in 5 hours of gameplay to get your character to level 10, and we were to fight, would you complain that I had a huge advantage just because I put in more time? How is Realm Rank different? The Realm Rank system in DAoC gave a bit of an advantage but it didn't make higher RR characters unbeatable by lower RR characters. It just gave people something to work for past standard leveling that could only be obtained by actually participating in RvR (except for that weird Doppel thing they did in DF for a short time).
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. RvR games that gate pvp through that kind of level/power gap are terrible. One of the best things about GW2 and ESO's RvR systems is that those kind of power gaps have been mostly eliminated and replaced by a more organic horizontal progression system.
I don't know how vast the power gaps are in DAOC, but in WAR they were ridiculous. That kind of set up should be left in the dust of history or for more pve focused games.
I never notice the RR making any difference. The team size are never balanced anyway. And it is RvR, not 1v1. Your power level never make much difference.
If it doesn't make a difference then don't have it.
It don't have to be power gap. There should be some thing different between a normal and hardcore player. When I play warhammer you see a high RR enemy and you get excited because only high RR enemy drop certain item. There is more of a sense in community in warhammer because all the guild work together. The high RR players are usually the leader of the server.
For GW2, you never have a sense of community. I think the main problem is most people in GW2 isn't RvR players. While you know everyone playing warhammer or DAOC play it to RvR.
I thought the power gaps in WAR were the worst part of the game, but totally agree with you about the sense of community and the focus on RvR.
Comments
It's not for everyone, and obviously the balanced, horizontal experience is waaaaay more popular (Fortnite just made $3 Billion...) but the OP wanted to know why we lost interest in GW2 RvR. And for me, it was because everyone was the same...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Are you still actively playing DAOC?
The rewards are ass.
WvW is also the most expensive mode to play (if you're not selfish), due to the cost of siege equipment and food buffs needed to be at one's peak.
No real incentive for smaller strike teams. It's pretty much large zergs for large objectives and 1-3 man roaming groups for camps.
Most of the siege weaponry is irrelevant or niche case.
Little incentive to defend objectives.
PvE players forced to play against their will for certain legendary collection items.
No servers with an even experience. You're either in massive, boring zerg wars on a huge server (like my Blackgate) or in a dead war with nothing going on.
Traveling to get to your zerg is often futile and frustrating due to the prevalence of ganking thieves.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I see a lot of the above points coming up again and again. Especially concerning the issues with objectives, zergs, and expense. For me another major issue is the lack of "realm" pride, since it all just seems to be teams of rotating colors/servers. Somehow the game's flow doesn't feel so much like an epic war between factions, but rather a point accumulator.
Lack of realm pride is a huge factor. My favorite RvR game ever was an unassuming, pay to win Asian MMO called Aika online. It still used servers rather than proper factions, but server identity was a huge factor because each server had its own player government with a ruling alliance that could set taxes. That ruling alliance was pretty much responsible for organizing the realm PvP for their server, and this PvP involved entering opposing servers, breaking through their defenses, stealing one of their shrine relics, returning to your server, and delivering it to your shrine for server-wide PvE bonuses, all while the other realm chases and attempts to stop you. It was a unique and interesting approach that I would love to have seen in a better game, like GW2.
For GW2, you never have a sense of community. I think the main problem is most people in GW2 isn't RvR players. While you know everyone playing warhammer or DAOC play it to RvR.
#1 turnoff for me is the wh0ole scoreboard and season bullshit, and nothing truly belonged to you so you didn't really care if the enemy took anything and who cares when it all just resets anyway? Didn't help that keeps could be taken in minutes, which is f'ing stupid. The whole strategy ended up being "let them take it, we'll come back and take it in a bit".
They had a chance to really make this awesome and they blew it.
Despite certain people here with opinions that RvR is "lazy" or automatically means less quality in a game, I think when implemented properly it can bring a whole new level of immersion to a game.
I hate to go back to it (no, I don't) but SWG was like that. Now, up front, I admit the mechanics left a lot to be desired, but the ideas were great, imo. Role players loved it because you could dress as a stormtrooper or imp officer and go beat rebels and vice versa. To me this was great. If you did not feel like participating in the galactic battle, you didn't have to. These were the best ideas I have seen thus far.
I know this IP isn't sword and board like you were asking for specifically, but there is a lot of buy-in for a person that has a reason to pvp beyond just them and us. Building bases to defend, have a unique identity for your "team" all of these things can bring meaning to a PvP scenario. Then sometimes you just want to go capture a flag.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.