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Bethesda said no loot boxes...

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  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member RarePosts: 1,637
    JeroKane said:
    BruceYee said:
    JeroKane said:
    Gdemami said:
    JeroKane said:

    It's starting to get seriously out of hand to the point that gaming stops being fun.
    ....they dare to make and monetize games way you don't approve?


    Out of hand, seriously? Spoiled kid attitude much...?
    What has that to do with spoiled attitude?

    Maybe you have been living under a rock the last couple years and didn't see the backlash of Star Wars Battlefront II and NBA2K18 last year? Where game progression was deliberately crippled to push people to spend "real" money on loot boxes / card packs to progress!

    These are games that have a full retail price of 60-70 bucks and then start nickle and dime you for even more with every step you try playing the game.
    The problem is that PC and console gaming did not start out that way so when they try to change the norm people get upset. With the vast amount of options now for gaming they probably do it out of necessity and not because they want to screw us like many believe. When they changed SWTOR to FTP they added tons of cash shop stuff in a time when it was blasphemy and it worked out well for them cause they monetized in a way that perfectly fit their game. Mobile games have their monetization down to a science cause they aren't torn between old rules and what they now need to do to survive.
    All these mobile games are F2P. So the only way to make money is predatory Cash Shops. Not to mention that mobile gaming started in Asia, where F2P games with Cash shops was cultural norm.

    Western made mobile games in early days were Pay 2 Play. Pretty much all of them, like the now infamous Angry Birds for example.
    Those were actually the golden days of mobile gaming, since you could find a lot of fun games you could just buy for a couple bucks and play without worry of micro transactions.
    Nowadays you practically can't find a single mobile game anymore without Micro Transactions and loot boxes, with very few exceptions like Monument or Super Mario Run and Final Fantasy ports.

    You don't expect these kind of practices in a AAA game titles that already charges the max. premium retail for the box/digital download, then has a 30-50 bucks Season Pass and then on top also tries to predate you ingame for more money through micro transactions and locking game progression behind loot boxes ( SW:Battlefront 2 and NBA2K18 for example ).

    This is Corporate greed going too far. They are just experimenting to see how far they can push people to spend more money.
    When they start hiring Micro Transaction specialists with Psychology backgrounds, that is not a necessity, but immoral huge corporations like EA, 2K, ActiVision, etc trying to find new sleazy ways to increase revenue more and more to the point that gaming itself gets lost in the process.

    Loot boxes is gambling! Pure and simple. They are crafted in a way to predate on gamers with an addiction problem, just like Casino's are. It's highly immoral and why more and more governments are finally starting to look into this and implementing bans to loot boxes in games. Since most of these games are played by minors. Not to mention that gambling is outright forbidden by law in a lot of countries or have at least an age restriction of 18 or 21.
    I agree with everything you wrote. The horrible thing about business though is that you must increase your earnings % each year so what I meant by necessity is that unless they come up with new ways to make more money as time goes on they will cease to exist. SOE, Gazillion, Trion are all examples of what happens when you pray for rain rather than be proactive. Maybe they should've hired that Micro Transaction specialist you mentioned. "Pushing people to spend more money" may be what it takes for this hobby to survive.
  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member RarePosts: 6,244
    edited December 2018
    It's not really a necessity at all.  As game sales have actually increased year over year. Every CoD, Battlefield, FIFA, etc has broken it's previous year's sales record year after year.

    So that is increased revenue right there, as they just keep recycling the same product year after year, it's doesn't get any easier than that to generate cash. pretty much low effort max revenue case here.

    The real problem is just greed. They just look at Asian developers who create F2P games that are developed from the ground up around Micro Transactions and rake in tons of cash with little effort, but forget that Eastern gaming culture is vastly different to western gaming culture.

    Then EA, 2K, ActiVision, etc try to do the same thing in their games, but on top of a hefty retail price + Season Pass.

    We are then no longer talking about F2P games with a Cash Shop, but pure greed taking over and them trying to merge F2P with P2P for maximum profit. To top it all off, they then also introduce gambling via loot boxes.

    SOE went down due sheer mismanagement at the top. John Smedley made so many mistakes and PR blunders over the years, where in any other company he would have been fired long ago. That he managed to sit in the CEO chair for that long...beats everyone.
    This had nothing to do with Pay 2 Play, Free 2 Play, Micro Transactions, loot boxes, whatever. Since SOE did it all and it didn't help them.   Mismanagement and bad decisions is what brought them down in the end.

    Gazillion went under for very different reasons. Again nothing to do with the subject at hand, but the CEO at the company and them losing the Marvel License, because of said CEO's actions.

    Trion... same thing. Sheer mismanagement at the top a la SOE over the years. They made so many mistakes and PR blunders over the years with terrible decisions.
    Gdemami
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    edited December 2018
    JeroKane said:
    The real problem is just greed. 
    Well, it is an objective of a business to earn money and cornerstone of social-economic structure of western/modern society.

    If you want to call that a greed, fair enough but then it is hilariously hypocritical since you deliberately consume the befits of this 'greed' to type your juvenile rant on a device and technology that is a product of the behavior you rage against.
    Vorthanion
  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member RarePosts: 6,244
    edited December 2018

    Gdemami said:

    Angry Birds was never p2p, it was b2p and for iOS only(0.99$). The majority of the userbase and income though was from android f2p title.

    It is hilarious when people are angry about the idea that someone else is allowed to spend more than $15 a month on a game and start screaming about 'corporate greed'..

    Here is the thing: you don't have to pay, you don't even have to play

    Developers certainly are not obliged to cater to customers who want to pay less. Video games are not your right, it is no public service.

    ...just more of spoiled kid attitude.





    That was just a typo. I meant B2P.  P2P is MMO subscription based games. So just mixing up abbreviations. That's all.

    Point still stands, that in the past a game developer's focus was to make a good game with focus on fun, so people would buy and play it.
    That was enough. You bought a game and you could just play it.

    Now, games are developed around Micro Transactions and loot boxes from the ground up where they have Psychologists in development teams that dictate how the game should be developed to trigger addiction behavior in people to spend money on in-game items and loot boxes.

    If you think that is a healthy development within the game industry, I am at a loss for words and don't know what to say.

    This has nothing to do of being spoiled or entitled! This is just a scary development in the Game industry that has nothing to do with gaming anymore, but Game Studio's like EA, Activision, 2K, etc turning into glorified Casino houses and hide gambling practices inside games.

    When you start playing a F2P title, then you know what you are getting yourself into. You know what the F2P industry is and I avoid it like the plague.
    There are very few exceptions, like for example Path of Exile. Their F2P business model I can fully support. That is how F2P can be done the right way.

    But when you buy a premium AAA title for 60-70 bucks that also tries to entice you spend another 30-50 bucks these days for a Season Pass ( DLC ). Ok. Fine.
    But when they then also have deliberately crippled the game itself, stifled progression behind Loot boxes and Micro Transactions to make you even spend more money just to play the friggin' game itself. Sorry...but NOT ok!

    And lucky I am not the only one! and gamers finally are rising up and start to protest against these business practices. Not just gamers, but governments finally waking up too and taking action.



    Gdemami
  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member RarePosts: 6,244
    edited December 2018
    Gdemami said:
    JeroKane said:
    Point still stands, that in the past a game developer's focus was to make a good game with focus on fun, so people would buy and play it.
    Just like any game today - people only pay and play games they find worthy their time and money.

    Only difference is the cap for how much one can spend was removed. And again, your Angry Bird example just shows that it was never a case, the game was majorily monetizes as a f2p title with ads and dlc/microstransactions.

    Again, developers are not obliged to make and monetize games the way YOU want, that is just more of spoiled kid attitude....
    Those were later Angry Bird titles and spin-offs.  All F2P garbage I no longer play.

    The original Angry Birds was B2P, you paid 1 buck and that's it. I know... I played that game to death on the old iPhone.

    The difference is that they pulled the original game from the iOS / Android store long ago and replaced it with a new F2P version called AB Classic.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    edited December 2018
    JeroKane said:
    The original Angry Birds was B2P, you paid 1 buck and that's it.
    Not true. Like I said, majority of users was using f2p android title that was released couple months after iOS version - same version of the game, very similar monetization mobile games use today.
  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Member EpicPosts: 1,851
    Daranar said:
    Thane said:
    Wizardry said:
    It is sickening to see developers stoop to the lowest form of scum tryigng to dupe idiots out of their money.
    Then we get the people who say,WHO CARES,it is their money ,let them waste it if they want.
    Of course those people would not find their way out of a wet paper bag unless there was a hand holding marker over it.

    When foolish people with money to waste start spending on garbage ideas,devs will cater our games to THEM and not YOU,so it DOES matter.If anyone has been THAT blind,take a look,the idea of cash shops are everywhere in almost all games.
    STOP supporting these trashy developers,let them rot,let them come begging for us to buy their games,STOP supporting cash shops/RMT.


    i wouldn't call em idiots, i would call em people with enough money.

    the prob ain't that shit is sold, the prob is that people buy it.
    whenever someone buys something, there obviously was a market for it, and obviously you WILL find a seller.

    and no, i don't have enough money :)
    Are you saying the only hope for the gaming community is a recession?  So devs have to make good games because idiots can't afford spend thousands of dollars on a video game anymore.  lol.
    What gaming needs is a full on crash. We're talking 1983 E.T. level crash.
    Gobstopper3D


    MMORPG.COM took away my swinging cheerleader butt .gif.

  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member RarePosts: 6,244
    Gdemami said:
    JeroKane said:
    The original Angry Birds was B2P, you paid 1 buck and that's it.
    Not true. Like I said, majority of users was using f2p android title that was released couple months after iOS version - same version of the game, very similar monetization mobile games use today.
    Ok. Well I never played Android version. I have practically only used iPhone and Windows Phone the past decade. Only tried Android phone now and then for a couple months.
  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Member EpicPosts: 1,851
    Gdemami said:
    OG_Zorvan said:
    What gaming needs is a full on crash. We're talking 1983 E.T. level crash.

    ...or better, you could find different hobby that would fit better your shallow pockets.
    Nah, the whole industry dying in a dumpster fire would suit me more.


    MMORPG.COM took away my swinging cheerleader butt .gif.

  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Member EpicPosts: 1,851
    Gdemami said:
    OG_Zorvan said:
    Nah, the whole industry dying in a dumpster fire would suit me more.

    I got that, I was just proposing more plausible, less immature option...
    Don't you got some LOL'ing to do?  :D


    MMORPG.COM took away my swinging cheerleader butt .gif.

  • etlaretlar Member UncommonPosts: 758
    Gdemami said:
    OG_Zorvan said:
    Nah, the whole industry dying in a dumpster fire would suit me more.

    I got that, I was just proposing more plausible, less immature option...

    The video game crash of 1983 (known as the Atari shock in Japan) was a large-scale recession in the video game industry that occurred from 1983 to 1985, primarily in North America. The crash was attributed to several factors, including market saturation in the number of game consoles and available games, and waning interest in console games in favor of personal computers. Revenues peaked at around $3.2 billion in 1983, then fell to around $100 million by 1985 (a drop of almost 97 percent). The crash was a serious event that brought an abrupt end to what is retrospectively considered the second generation of console video gaming in North America.

    The crash shook the then-booming industry, and led to the bankruptcy of several companies producing home computers and video game consoles in the region. It lasted about two years. Analysts of the time expressed doubts about the long-term viability of video game consoles and software. The North American video game console industry recovered a few years later, mostly due to the widespread success of the Nintendo Entertainment System (NES) in 1985; Nintendo designed the NES as the Western branding for its Famicom console originally released in 1983 to avoid the missteps that caused the 1983 crash and avoid the stigma that video games had at that time.

    Just figured i´d mention it, and also, if it would only take 2 years to recover, and the result was a 2020 NES that would enchant us alll the way the nintendo did, i would be all for it too, maybe ;) 

  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Member EpicPosts: 1,851
    edited December 2018
    etlar said:
    Gdemami said:
    OG_Zorvan said:
    Nah, the whole industry dying in a dumpster fire would suit me more.

    I got that, I was just proposing more plausible, less immature option...

    The video game crash of 1983 (known as the Atari shock in Japan) was a large-scale recession in the video game industry that occurred from 1983 to 1985, primarily in North America. The crash was attributed to several factors, including market saturation in the number of game consoles and available games, and waning interest in console games in favor of personal computers. Revenues peaked at around $3.2 billion in 1983, then fell to around $100 million by 1985 (a drop of almost 97 percent). The crash was a serious event that brought an abrupt end to what is retrospectively considered the second generation of console video gaming in North America.

    The crash shook the then-booming industry, and led to the bankruptcy of several companies producing home computers and video game consoles in the region. It lasted about two years. Analysts of the time expressed doubts about the long-term viability of video game consoles and software. The North American video game console industry recovered a few years later, mostly due to the widespread success of the Nintendo Entertainment System (NES) in 1985; Nintendo designed the NES as the Western branding for its Famicom console originally released in 1983 to avoid the missteps that caused the 1983 crash and avoid the stigma that video games had at that time.

    Just figured i´d mention it, and also, if it would only take 2 years to recover, and the result was a 2020 NES that would enchant us alll the way the nintendo did, i would be all for it too, maybe ;) 

    I was ten years old and hooked on the Atari 5200 when it happened, so I can remember. Ended up hanging out at arcades for the next couple years, and I also remember the excitement when the original NES was announced, and made sure to plop myself at the house of a friend for days on end who was among the first to get one and we took turns trying to beat Super Mario together. The NES really did change the gaming landscape forever.
    etlar


    MMORPG.COM took away my swinging cheerleader butt .gif.

  • rodarinrodarin Member RarePosts: 2,451
    LMAO Fall Out 76 is like Trump I guess. Everything they do is taken out of context and spun in the worst possible way. But an apt comparison since both cant get out of their own way sometimes.

    BUt the article says clearly that they read a line of code and just jumped to conclusions. But they know no one reads anymore, other than a headline, and their admission that they dont know what the F theyre talking about comes at the end of the article.

    Its just crazy to me that this game (an actual released game) gets so much heat for shit EA and other trash does habitually. Granted those things get buried too, but not nearly as openly as Bethesda and FO 76 are getting. But then again that article is from PC Gamer site and theyre nothing but a bunch of fear mongering the video game world is coming to an end peddlers now.

    Also in a game without a viable PvP system how can you have P2W? Buying something you can earn in game through rewards or in game currency that helps you eat or drink less (because water and food is SOOOOOOOOOO hard to come by and doesnt weigh anything) yeah I know I know its the 'principle'. There are other project s going on now which are far more predatory than these guys throwing something in the store that we dont even know what it does yet.

    I am sure after the maintenance today everyone can see for themselves. I will have my credit card ready.....


  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Member EpicPosts: 1,851
    rodarin said:


    Its just crazy to me that this game (an actual released game) gets so much heat for shit EA and other trash does habitually. 


    Because Bethesda, to this point, was one of the "great" ones, that noone thought would do the things they've been doing. It's expected of a company like EA, but when it's a company like Bethesda, it's on the level of flat out betrayal, if that makes sense. To put it simply, noone has liked EA for years but Bethesda was overwhelmingly loved.
    GdemamiJeroKane


    MMORPG.COM took away my swinging cheerleader butt .gif.

  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,375
    edited December 2018
    I see @Gdemami is earning his own trademark lols.

    It's true that we can simply abandon these games and look for other things to do but one can still hope for some games to play too without having to feed the P2W beast or some gambling mechanic. I avoided it in Black Desert simply because I had no interest in the end game and PvP. I was more interested in gardening and trading.
    image
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,011
    Wizardry said:
    It is sickening to see developers stoop to the lowest form of scum tryigng to dupe idiots out of their money.
    Then we get the people who say,WHO CARES,it is their money ,let them waste it if they want.
    Of course those people would not find their way out of a wet paper bag unless there was a hand holding marker over it.

    When foolish people with money to waste start spending on garbage ideas,devs will cater our games to THEM and not YOU,so it DOES matter.If anyone has been THAT blind,take a look,the idea of cash shops are everywhere in almost all games.
    STOP supporting these trashy developers,let them rot,let them come begging for us to buy their games,STOP supporting cash shops/RMT.


    Well said! Cash shops are NOT okay. Tired of all the people who try to argue that it is. 
    No Cash shops are not OK.  Games should either be B2P, B2P with a Sub, B2P with an optional sub, or a Sub only game.   No Cash shop period.   I can accept character transfers between servers as a micro service or services where I could pay for a friends subscription.   
  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,961
    I've spent enough time in Fallout 76 to shelve the game entirely and wait until the next proper release from Bethesda. Not getting any more of my money.

    They could turn it around and have it be a game worth playing in a year? That is, if they continue to support the game as they planned originally.
  • rodarinrodarin Member RarePosts: 2,451
    OG_Zorvan said:
    rodarin said:


    Its just crazy to me that this game (an actual released game) gets so much heat for shit EA and other trash does habitually. 


    Because Bethesda, to this point, was one of the "great" ones, that noone thought would do the things they've been doing. It's expected of a company like EA, but when it's a company like Bethesda, it's on the level of flat out betrayal, if that makes sense. To put it simply, noone has liked EA for years but Bethesda was overwhelmingly loved.
    Bethesda in a lot of their practices has been over rated by too many people. I think thats why people feel this way. But They have also had some pretty harsh critics (haters) as well. Who knew all too well the way Bethesda was over hyped. But they went beyond what would be considered reasonable criticism when bashing them.

    So this is a perfect storm, it allows the critics and the naive fans (who werent paying attention) to all join in and they feed off each other. Mob mentality has taken over and its crazy. And whats worse you still have the blind defenders who overlook obvious issues and say 'all is well' So its a smorgasbord of comments.

    People really are addicted to outrage these days. If half the people who are commenting (just to pile on) actually bought or better yet simply played the game they would see it isnt anywhere near as bad as its being portrayed. Sure there are issues and most arent universal (like I said before not sure if that is better or worse) but its basically individual issues based on certain unique issues that were causing a lot of problems. It wasnt always as simple as 'xxx is bugged dont bother' because for maybe 30-40-50% of the player base it wasnt. Like I said doesnt make it worse or better. Probably made it harder to fix considering they had to find the unique qualifiers that were causing it to bug for half the people and not for the other half.

    Next update should be live ( I havent checked yet) so I imagine the feedback will start trickling in soon.
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    BadSpock said:
    I've spent enough time in Fallout 76 to shelve the game entirely and wait until the next proper release from Bethesda. Not getting any more of my money.

    They could turn it around and have it be a game worth playing in a year? That is, if they continue to support the game as they planned originally.
    And considering the giant wave of hate they are now getting from all sides, justified and unjustified, I wonder if they might end up cutting and running. We'll have to see. Personally I feel the game could have been pretty good if they'd put about another year of development time and play testing into it before forcing it out the door.

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,157
    edited December 2018


    The value of a dollar......

    Too bad it's lost on so many.


    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

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