Time to be positive

delete5230 · December 2018

I've been critical and blunt, It's time to change direction. And not to please the audience or Visionary Realms, I'm still critical and blunt.

With all my negativity, their is something I haven't taken into account.

Time !!!

They say time heals all wounds, well it does more, it could heal video games. The problem with healing mmorpg's is "it's always too late". Most of us could count on our fingers the few video games out of thousands that were released flawless.

The BIG PROBLEM with mmorpg's is they never recover. Off line games are simple. It releases, you buy, done !... You wait, they fix, boom all is forgotten about !.... mmorpg's rely on population. If bad, people quit 9 times out of 10. They bash scorn drag it through the mud, game over. The fact is, it comes down to money. Developers know their product is flawed if they have bata testers, but money is money, often they have no choice.

Visionary Realms has an off chance to be different !!!
The Fans and bashers alike haven't a clue. We sit home in our safe space attempting their accounting. We sit in our pajamas solving their problems as I'm doing right now..... Who's to say Visionary Realms aren't working with 100% passion !

Release could be ten years away. I'm exaggeration or maybe not, we can't lurk in their minds, we don't know any details.
Take Vanguard... Brad could have been thinking 10 years, Microsoft could have been 2 years then the fight started.

The "vision" could be more than we know. The interview process my involve passion or your out.

ConstantineMerus · December 2018

It's not just the MMORPGs, nowadays people would rarely give anything a second chance. There has been games that have recovered fairly - No Man's Sky, The Division, etc. - but just to some degrees. They'd never achieve the same amount of success they had potentially before launch.

So yeah, time heals some wounds but it also leaves a scar mark. And in most cases, won't go away.

On some level I understand MMORPGS developers - because like my own profession, it takes years from having an idea to receive the final judgment. And in all that time they could be on the highway to hell, while dreaming about the heaven.

Scot · December 2018

ConstantineMerus said:

It's not just the MMORPGs, nowadays people would rarely give anything a second chance. There has been games that have recovered fairly - No Man's Sky, The Division, etc. - but just to some degrees. They'd never achieve the same amount of success they had potentially before launch.

So yeah, time heals some wounds but it also leaves a scar mark. And in most cases, won't go away.

On some level I understand MMORPGS developers - because like my own profession, it takes years from having an idea to receive the final judgment. And in all that time they could be on the highway to hell, while dreaming about the heaven.

This is now the vogue in the whole entertainment industry, it is why TV series are shorter, contain multiple genre types and they really prefer a pre-existing IP. There is no second chance, no time to grow.

Lets also look at films, once only slasher horror felt the need to have a dramatic opening before the film proper started, some sort of action filled flashback. Now you will see this in most horror and many action movies and thrillers too.

The audience must be grabbed and sent on a roller coaster ride, which obviously means less time for characterisation and every other aspect of the story.

Xarko · December 2018

Since we are being positive I gotta say Visionary Realms already pleasantly surprised me few times, which I'm not used to anymore in gaming.

First, when they actually started to implement some of the promised unique features I was sure they gonna be scratched off the list, as it always happens.(they still might be.. damn! be positive!)

Second, when the ugly as sin game got a facelift and now looks, I dare say, pretty and atmospheric. I though hey, the world looks nice, I might even try to stomach those weird looking models and animations when the game launches.

Third, the models got a huge upgrade recently. They actually look like a current gen models. I expected there might be some little work done, but I wasn't expecting LIKING them. Now when they say they are hiring animation pros to make the models move nicely as well I believe they mean it.

There is still tons of work ahead of them to make it all work, but it's nice to see things actually being DEVELOPED unlike that one other game that hasn't seen any progress over the years.

That being said I'm 100% sure something will go wro .... *lost connection*

Kyleran · December 2018

Actually it's time to more or less ignore this and most any other indie MMORPG until they publish a proposed release date, start showing more progress, and inviting more people in to test than a small handful of high tier backers.

I find I'm more than a little burnt out trying to follow these games for such long periods of time.

delete5230 · December 2018

Kyleran said:

Actually it's time to more or less ignore this and most any other indie MMORPG until they publish a proposed release date, start showing more progress, and inviting more people in to test than a small handful of high tier backers.

I find I'm more than a little burnt out trying to follow these games for such long periods of time.

The lucky are the ones that find a game like this on Steam 3 weeks before release.

ConstantineMerus · December 2018

delete5230 said:

Kyleran said:

Actually it's time to more or less ignore this and most any other indie MMORPG until they publish a proposed release date, start showing more progress, and inviting more people in to test than a small handful of high tier backers.

I find I'm more than a little burnt out trying to follow these games for such long periods of time.

The lucky are the ones that find a game like this on Steam 3 weeks before release.

Or a year after when it's on sale - ignorance is a bliss!

Wizardry · December 2018

I am saying it is not passion because 2 reasons.
They don't have the money and asked for our money,which also tells me no confidence in their own product.
I would not say he failed per say with VG,still a decent game but he failed as a business and so this time rather than do it again,went with other people's money.

So this is operating as a business and not for passion of game design.
Want an example of passion,John Carmack working in his spare time while working a regular job to create his own engine and bring us Quake.

The three teenagers who built Rings of Power "Naughty Dog" for the Sega system.They were so sought after ,SOE scooped them up MANY years ago.

When businesses ask for OUR money to test their game,there is something wrong.they used to BEG us to help test their games,they used to pay people to do testing.Now everything is GREED monger,get money out of us anyway possible,yes even years before a product is finished.

Early access sure puts a damper on pre-orders lol.
Ok time to get morning coffee and wrap.

Scot · December 2018

Kyleran said:

Actually it's time to more or less ignore this and most any other indie MMORPG until they publish a proposed release date, start showing more progress, and inviting more people in to test than a small handful of high tier backers.

I find I'm more than a little burnt out trying to follow these games for such long periods of time.

What you need to do is find some obsessed with Indie MMO posters who will keep you up to date with what's going on without you needing to do the leg work of reading everything coming out.

Ok so taking Kyeran of that list and now looking for another indie obsessive to take his place.

Amathe · December 2018

*Loading please wait*

Just have to be patient.

Kyleran · December 2018

Scot said:

Kyleran said:

Actually it's time to more or less ignore this and most any other indie MMORPG until they publish a proposed release date, start showing more progress, and inviting more people in to test than a small handful of high tier backers.

I find I'm more than a little burnt out trying to follow these games for such long periods of time.

What you need to do is find some obsessed with Indie MMO posters who will keep you up to date with what's going on without you needing to do the leg work of reading everything coming out.

Ok so taking Kyeran of that list and now looking for another indie obsessive to take his place.

Hey, how do you think I keep up with SC? I rely on the fans here to sift through everything and share what's important, the condensed version.

@MaxBacon is the best for it as he manages to share info with only a light helping of salt.

They keep trying to build some fool space / starship / marine simulator and all I want to do is play a fun game, not train for "Mission to Mars" or whatever.

Sovrath · December 2018

Wizardry said:

I am saying it is not passion because 2 reasons.
They don't have the money and asked for our money,which also tells me no confidence in their own product.
I would not say he failed per say with VG,still a decent game but he failed as a business and so this time rather than do it again,went with other people's money.

So this is operating as a business and not for passion of game design.
Want an example of passion,John Carmack working in his spare time while working a regular job to create his own engine and bring us Quake.

The three teenagers who built Rings of Power "Naughty Dog" for the Sega system.They were so sought after ,SOE scooped them up MANY years ago.

When businesses ask for OUR money to test their game,there is something wrong.they used to BEG us to help test their games,they used to pay people to do testing.Now everything is GREED monger,get money out of us anyway possible,yes even years before a product is finished.

Early access sure puts a damper on pre-orders lol.
Ok time to get morning coffee and wrap.

I'm sorry Wizardry, it might seem I'm targeting you over the past few days but it's just that you say things that are just so off. Oh, don't get me wrong, when you are right you are right but most of the time it's as if you are just pontificating with no actual real evidence or information.

Passion does not equal having money. The world is filled with passionate people who create things but have difficulty seeing their visions come to life because there just isn't the money.

Additionally, a good many people who are visionaries or passionate aren't business people.

Which leads us to the other point, "yes" it seems he failed at Vanguard as a businessman. You got that right.

As far as "passion in game design" you seem to be living in the past as evidenced in another thread where you used examples form the 70's.

Carmack? The teenagers who made Naughty Dog? If they were to do what they did today they would be laughed at. There are plenty of indie developers "with passion" but when the offer what they are working on they get criticism for there games looking like crap or "dated."

I won't disagree that there are people who are self proclaimed "risk takers" and they are perfectly fine with getting as much money as they can and hoping for the best. I've met these people in the course of my life; only not in game development. Sometimes they are lucky and are successful and sometimes not.

Lokero · December 2018

Kyleran said:

Actually it's time to more or less ignore this and most any other indie MMORPG until they publish a proposed release date, start showing more progress, and inviting more people in to test than a small handful of high tier backers.

I find I'm more than a little burnt out trying to follow these games for such long periods of time.

Wait.. what??? There's a game related to this forum??

I just come here to watch the Delete show and see which side of Fickle-Fence he'll fall on in each episode

TBH, I hardly pay attention to any of these games. The only one I pay any attention to is CU, and that's just because I enjoy the way they show their design and development. So, that's more a game dev interest, than following the game.

Adamantine · December 2018

I want the time back I just wasted on this stupid OP.

delete5230 · December 2018

Adamantine said:

I want the time back I just wasted on this stupid OP.

Well, every topic is stupid when a game is five years away. The only thing relevant is if developers come here personally and start topics about things added.

You don't seem to have anything relevant… Do you ?

Kyleran · December 2018

delete5230 said:

Adamantine said:

I want the time back I just wasted on this stupid OP.

Well, every topic is stupid when a game is five years away. The only thing relevant is if developers come here personally and start topics about things added.

You don't seem to have anything relevant… Do you ?

Most developers are far too savvy to ever do something like that here.

One does not simply just walk into Mordor after all.

Kyleran · December 2018

parrotpholk said:

Kyleran said:

delete5230 said:

Adamantine said:

I want the time back I just wasted on this stupid OP.

Well, every topic is stupid when a game is five years away. The only thing relevant is if developers come here personally and start topics about things added.

You don't seem to have anything relevant… Do you ?

Most developers are far too savvy to ever do something like that here.

One does not simply just walk into Mordor after all.

And the ones who do stop by get skewered. Granted they bring it on themselves most of the time but nevertheless. We are not exactly the white knight bunch, more like the followers of the horsemen of the apocalypse

No harsher critics than the legion of armchair developers.

ChildoftheShadows · December 2018

It's mostly the consumers fault though. We want things now and we want them flawless.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if we want good quality and not stuff from another big company using their cookie cutters to make games, then we need to support the indie companies the best we can. At some point we'll get what we want.

delete5230 · December 2018

MisterZebub said:

Sovrath said:

Wizardry said:

I am saying it is not passion because 2 reasons.
They don't have the money and asked for our money,which also tells me no confidence in their own product.
I would not say he failed per say with VG,still a decent game but he failed as a business and so this time rather than do it again,went with other people's money.

So this is operating as a business and not for passion of game design.
Want an example of passion,John Carmack working in his spare time while working a regular job to create his own engine and bring us Quake.

The three teenagers who built Rings of Power "Naughty Dog" for the Sega system.They were so sought after ,SOE scooped them up MANY years ago.

When businesses ask for OUR money to test their game,there is something wrong.they used to BEG us to help test their games,they used to pay people to do testing.Now everything is GREED monger,get money out of us anyway possible,yes even years before a product is finished.

Early access sure puts a damper on pre-orders lol.
Ok time to get morning coffee and wrap.

I'm sorry Wizardry, it might seem I'm targeting you over the past few days but it's just that you say things that are just so off. Oh, don't get me wrong, when you are right you are right but most of the time it's as if you are just pontificating with no actual real evidence or information.

Passion does not equal having money. The world is filled with passionate people who create things but have difficulty seeing their visions come to life because there just isn't the money.

Additionally, a good many people who are visionaries or passionate aren't business people.

Which leads us to the other point, "yes" it seems he failed at Vanguard as a businessman. You got that right.

As far as "passion in game design" you seem to be living in the past as evidenced in another thread where you used examples form the 70's.

Carmack? The teenagers who made Naughty Dog? If they were to do what they did today they would be laughed at. There are plenty of indie developers "with passion" but when the offer what they are working on they get criticism for there games looking like crap or "dated."

I won't disagree that there are people who are self proclaimed "risk takers" and they are perfectly fine with getting as much money as they can and hoping for the best. I've met these people in the course of my life; only not in game development. Sometimes they are lucky and are successful and sometimes not.

Many of these passionate people aren't business people pretty much says it all. These types of games are massive endeavors that take large amounts of money and time. Any problems or mistakes will kill the game and all that money and time will be wasted. Without any return on the investors investment. That is what killed the MMORPG industry. Not lack of passion or vision. The money men moved on to greener pastures leaving only the passionate game creators and fans to fend for themselves to keep their chosen game type alive. And so far that hasn't gone so well.

In the end you can think as positive as you want, if these visionaries can't find financial security, or lack the proper skill to bring their visions to market, it won't mean a hill of beans.

Very true,
The money men moved on to greener pastures. But they left the passionate game creators with a "major cost hurtle" as a warning to not even try. Cost of everything went up.

It's like saying, "if we can't do it no one will"...…. The Man is nasty !

Scott23 · December 2018

Wizardry said:

<snip>

When businesses ask for OUR money to test their game,there is something wrong.they used to BEG us to help test their games,they used to pay people to do testing.Now everything is GREED monger,get money out of us anyway possible,yes even years before a product is finished.

Early access sure puts a damper on pre-orders lol.
Ok time to get morning coffee and wrap.

Now I dislike this practice as much as anyone (and I refuse to do it), but it is the players that allowed this to happen when they started begging to be allowed to pay for early access.

I don't happen to think that it is a good policy as many (yes, I'm generalizing here) just do it to play the game and not help the developers. Then they report that the game is 'crap' and help drive away potential customers that are debating a purchase.

It has to be hard to turn this down as an indie developer when money is generally tighter the longer you are in development.

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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Time to be positive

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV