No one is arguing that the worst players need to fare just as well as the best. But players who are substantially below average (whether in time spent, player skill, or whatever) need to be able to accomplish things and have fun. Otherwise, they will get sick of the game and leave. And then the players who used to be average then be below average among those who are left, and then they'll get sick of the game and leave, too. And so on as this works its way upward until the game is dead.
If substantially below average players aren't able to do anything other than die a lot, that's not fun. If they're able to accomplish things, have fun, and be on the winning side in some sense a substantial fraction of the time in spite of dying twice as often as they kill someone else, that's fine.
Yea but all too often the casuals that cry in these games are of the I play 15 minutes a week and dont have any other time to put into the game so it needs to cater to me type. Which is why WOW is in the shape its in because they catered to the players who didnt want to put more than a very small amount of effort in. The effort put in should equal the reward getting out of the game and yes if you only play 15 minutes a week you should be fodder for everyone else. If you put effort into learning your role and work to get better you should achieve rewards based on that level of play.
A lot is a matter of degree. If the person who plays 15 minutes per week can't do much because he can't compete with the people who play an hour per week, oh well. If the person who plays 20 hours per week has no hope of doing anything in that time other than getting slaughtered by the people who play 40 hours per week, the game is going to be dead on arrival.
ya know.. this is one of the things I love about Eternal Crusade, it have a leveling system, so as you play, to get incrementally better gear.. but you still have a loadout point limit, so you can't become a god, and everyone has the same point limit, so a new player with some skill can beat a veteran.
It allows those that put in the time and money to have "good" stuff.. but not overly powering tho. Until it comes to eldar, they are OPed AF, just all around.
I kinda hope that CU and CF go in this direction.. we shall see.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If casual players can be as successful as those who put time in, what's the point of putting time in?
I don't think he means hardcore as in time,i think he means forcing large raids otherwise your left to doing almost nothing in game.Basically when i hear casual ,it means solo friendly.
I have already stated 3 things over and over,raids are NEVER needed in a game,you can do BOTH grouping AND soloing because FFXI proved it.So unless devs are stunned ,not paying attention,still living on their OLD games then they SHOULD be able to figure it out.
Time imo should always be a factor,it is a real life idea because anyone doing something a LOT and even repetitively will obviously get better at it.If you handed someone a hockey stick and said here go shoot the puck 3x and another guy practiced shooting for a month,i guarantee the second guy will be a hundred times better at it.
Now an area developer's have missed out on are "trainers",you know just like in real life,someone teaches you how to do something properly.I do NOT want to see how trainers were used in old school games that was just retarded,spend points get a new level.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
There will always be solo gankers trying to wreck havoc on the masses, but that being said.....This is a team base pvp game.Where sucess will be in cooperative play with your team. So get yourself in a good guild, make friends and group up. You will be successful if you are social in these kind of games regarless how much time you put in every day. A hard core solo ganker will never have a chance agaisnt people running in a pack. Outside of that the game should be about who can communicate well with their team mates and can coordinate strategic maneuvers. Even if you are just doing pve content , you should be running in groups for protection. If you are a casual but social and in a good guild that often runs in groups than i think you will be fine. If you are a solo casusal than your not going to do well, (unless you dont mind just crafting or helping the team in some other way.) Eso would be more to your speed.....just saying..... I do agree though that gear should give an edge but shoudnt have a huge gap to someone that doesnt have gear on 1 v 1 or 3v3 or even 5v5 like in BDO
If at first you dont succeed, call it version 1.0
My thought is that time invested is important, but their needs to be a ceiling. Maybe 9 months for a hardcore player and 1.5-2 years for a casual player. After that you are capped on gear, and no new gear is introduced.
If it's going to take several months around dying a lot and being miserable before you can be competitive, then why bother paying the game at all?
The original DAOC got around this somewhat by providing tiered battlegrounds but as I understand things none such will be provided in CU as there really won't be traditional levels.
Long ago I read their might be some area for very new players to cut their teeth on but then they would move into the main RVR world with everyone else.
Alledgedly CU was still to have some form of progression, but nothing like the gaps DAOC had.
Proof is in the execution which I've not heard of much these days.
Ever since going into beta news on it has been surprisingly quiet. I still get the newsletters but as always they are full of "busy, busy, busy" without saying much of anything of import.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Someone once said Ansel Adams could take a better photo with a pinhole camera than most people could with a modern SLR.
At the end of the day it's all about maintaining the illusion so the average player believes they have a chance to be competitive.
The reality is the best players will always rise to the top if they spend more time practicing, min / maxing their builds, understanding its strengths and weaknesses against others and possessing far greater natural talent regardless of actual game design.
Other players fool themselves into thinking they are competitive but even if the tools are completely even they'd still get crushed more often than they'd like, so devs have to make sure the players never truly realize it, or at least not have it rubbed in their face publically.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
sorry, but NO. just no. this game isn't meant for casual gamers.
and we are allll happy about it.
you want a casual game, there are enough out there. this one is for pvp players, and quite frankly, pvp IS NOT CASUAL.
Sure PvP is for casual players, just look at Fortnight, 80% of the population is casual players.
Just level the playing field, and make it a game of skill not grind, and casuals will be more then happy to kick your ass all over the place..
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
sorry, but NO. just no. this game isn't meant for casual gamers.
and we are allll happy about it.
you want a casual game, there are enough out there. this one is for pvp players, and quite frankly, pvp IS NOT CASUAL.
Sure PvP is for casual players, just look at Fortnight, 80% of the population is casual players.
Just level the playing field, and make it a game of skill not grind, and casuals will be more then happy to kick your ass all over the place..
I would still argue that Fortnite is not casual. You hear stories all the time about how addicting the game is for not just teenagers but adults too. I have a guy in my apartment who plays fortnite from the moment he gets up to the moment he goes to bed. Sure he has a physical disability so can't work but there are other games that he could play. I think with the amount of hours an average player probally spends playing Fortnite you would find that the game is not casual.
I can't back this up with cold hard facts. So I am not going to pretend this is the truth or anything. Just how I look at things.
125 million Fortnite players... pretty sure the vast majority of those are causal players. That doesn’t mean there are no hardcore players as their obviously are, but the sheer numbers mean there are far more casual players.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"PvP is not casual" is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on these forums.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
sorry, but NO. just no. this game isn't meant for casual gamers.
and we are allll happy about it.
you want a casual game, there are enough out there. this one is for pvp players, and quite frankly, pvp IS NOT CASUAL.
Sure PvP is for casual players, just look at Fortnight, 80% of the population is casual players.
Just level the playing field, and make it a game of skill not grind, and casuals will be more then happy to kick your ass all over the place..
Or at least let you kick their ass all over the place because the believe they actually have a chance, despite most evidence to the contrary.
Not to get into some fight about Casuals vs Hardcore players, when it comes to games. As too often people pick their side and get overly emotionally invested. Such is the way with gamers.
But when people talk to me about the skills and abilities of "hardcore" players, .. well.. I just keep in mind, that all Hack and Cheat, and other 3rd party software is designed to target Hardcore players, because they can't be competitive on their skills alone while playing the game as intended.
I mean, I'd love to respect "Hardcore" players, but lets get real, this is the demographic of players that will pay a subscription fee to use a hack program for a Free 2 Play game..
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If casual players can be as successful as those who put time in, what's the point of putting time in?
It's important how "success" is measured. Not everyone measures it the same.
And it matters whether "success" is tied to time played. Many times it isn't.
For example, most guilds who pride themselves on how successful they are don't measure their success in time played. Quite the opposite. They want to get in, kill the top boss, get the best gear in as little time as possible.
So really I think you have it backwards.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
No one is arguing that the worst players need to fare just as well as the best. But players who are substantially below average (whether in time spent, player skill, or whatever) need to be able to accomplish things and have fun. Otherwise, they will get sick of the game and leave. And then the players who used to be average then be below average among those who are left, and then they'll get sick of the game and leave, too. And so on as this works its way upward until the game is dead.
If substantially below average players aren't able to do anything other than die a lot, that's not fun. If they're able to accomplish things, have fun, and be on the winning side in some sense a substantial fraction of the time in spite of dying twice as often as they kill someone else, that's fine.
Yea but all too often the casuals that cry in these games are of the I play 15 minutes a week and dont have any other time to put into the game so it needs to cater to me type. Which is why WOW is in the shape its in because they catered to the players who didnt want to put more than a very small amount of effort in. The effort put in should equal the reward getting out of the game and yes if you only play 15 minutes a week you should be fodder for everyone else. If you put effort into learning your role and work to get better you should achieve rewards based on that level of play.
A lot is a matter of degree. If the person who plays 15 minutes per week can't do much because he can't compete with the people who play an hour per week, oh well. If the person who plays 20 hours per week has no hope of doing anything in that time other than getting slaughtered by the people who play 40 hours per week, the game is going to be dead on arrival.
Yep I agree. My stab is at the Casual players who want to put 0 effort in but get everything a skilled player that puts a ton of effort in. For example lets talk about crafting because this game will have SWG like crafting If a player does not want to spend the time needed to learn what mats are the best to make what sets of armor and weapons his shit shouldnt sell as good as player B that will put hours in of effort figuring out what mats make the best gear. It comes down to Effort and too often people like the OP want to put 0 effort in and call themselves casuals and cry about not being better than people who put effort in. They are not casuals they are just lazy players thats all they are.
Yes I agree a player that plays 20 hours a week should be able to compete with a player who plays 40 hours a week. Now if it comes down to which is more skilled not which is more gear and that 40 hour a week player is just way more skilled then nothing we can do.
sorry, but NO. just no. this game isn't meant for casual gamers.
and we are allll happy about it.
you want a casual game, there are enough out there. this one is for pvp players, and quite frankly, pvp IS NOT CASUAL.
Lets rephrase this. PVP is not for players who whine and cry that they are casual players but really dont want to put more effort into the game other than smashing 1 button the entire time for 15 minutes and crying that they suck. PVP can be a casual schedule game which people enjoy when they have free time and are willing to put the effort into play their role in a team. They might not be the greatest player however can play a very vital role that they master the skill at over time.
Like being a good crafter in this game is going to require effort. Thinking you are going to grab a bunch of Iron and make the best stuff in game in a week and be rich is a pipe dream. Only those crafters willing to figure out really good combos with their mats making very good gear will be the best crafters. Everyone else that wants to do it as a past time will suck ass.
danwest58 said: Like being a good crafter in this game is going to require effort. Thinking you are going to grab a bunch of Iron and make the best stuff in game in a week and be rich is a pipe dream. Only those crafters willing to figure out really good combos with their mats making very good gear will be the best crafters. Everyone else that wants to do it as a past time will suck ass.
This is a pipe dream to be honest.
Reality is, within a week after going Open Beta (maybe sooner) the best recopies and crafting methods will be mathed out and posted on game guides.
Form there everyone will just copy/past the best combos and by the end of the month crafting will be homogenized across anyone that wanted to take that route.
At that point, it all be a matter of a crafter getting funded by a guild to cut down on their personal materials cost to generate better profit margins allowing them to undercut their competitions.
Given the games design, I wager by the time Crafters get into the higher end stuff, which will not be long at all, they will be having their guild help acquire the rare and most coveted materials in the game, which no doubt players will need to fight each other over.
If you think you are going to sit at a forge and invent some super secret combo and become some legendary crafter of great renown, ... now THAT is a pipe dream.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
sorry, but NO. just no. this game isn't meant for casual gamers.
and we are allll happy about it.
you want a casual game, there are enough out there. this one is for pvp players, and quite frankly, pvp IS NOT CASUAL.
Sure PvP is for casual players, just look at Fortnight, 80% of the population is casual players.
Just level the playing field, and make it a game of skill not grind, and casuals will be more then happy to kick your ass all over the place..
I would still argue that Fortnite is not casual. You hear stories all the time about how addicting the game is for not just teenagers but adults too. I have a guy in my apartment who plays fortnite from the moment he gets up to the moment he goes to bed. Sure he has a physical disability so can't work but there are other games that he could play. I think with the amount of hours an average player probally spends playing Fortnite you would find that the game is not casual.
I can't back this up with cold hard facts. So I am not going to pretend this is the truth or anything. Just how I look at things.
If he is capable of playing Fortnite he is capable of many types of work.
IMO this is just a guy like you or me trying to survive in this world.I believe he might have a passion for gaming/design but i also believe he KNOWS he cannot deliver a passionate game design but only one that he hopes fits the budget and can pay him and his team a decent wage to survive. The early DAOC banter was imo a poor choice to try and hype up THIS game.You build a game and hype it based on merit and NOT on some past laurels.
Unless some god from the heavens touches this game it will at least imo never be even a 5/10.It will be a world,yeah we seen a thousand of those before with trees and water and rocks and it will be pvp,yep seen that b4 a thousand times as well.
If people THINK they need yet another game like this with a different skin,then all the power to you...enjoy.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
danwest58 said: Like being a good crafter in this game is going to require effort. Thinking you are going to grab a bunch of Iron and make the best stuff in game in a week and be rich is a pipe dream. Only those crafters willing to figure out really good combos with their mats making very good gear will be the best crafters. Everyone else that wants to do it as a past time will suck ass.
This is a pipe dream to be honest.
Reality is, within a week after going Open Beta (maybe sooner) the best recopies and crafting methods will be mathed out and posted on game guides.
Form there everyone will just copy/past the best combos and by the end of the month crafting will be homogenized across anyone that wanted to take that route.
At that point, it all be a matter of a crafter getting funded by a guild to cut down on their personal materials cost to generate better profit margins allowing them to undercut their competitions.
Given the games design, I wager by the time Crafters get into the higher end stuff, which will not be long at all, they will be having their guild help acquire the rare and most coveted materials in the game, which no doubt players will need to fight each other over.
If you think you are going to sit at a forge and invent some super secret combo and become some legendary crafter of great renown, ... now THAT is a pipe dream.
That all depends on how it is designed. Several of the crafting mechanics in A Tale in the Desert made it so that you couldn't just copy/paste a formula and make the best stuff. You can have per-player variance in the effects of crafting formulas. You can have a skill of the player component to crafting. You can make it so that the thing that you need to craft varies so wildly that there's no hope of just having a formula for everything.
I don't know if Camelot Unchained will do any of those things. But that they've been done in the past proves that it's possible. If it's a straightforward situation of, this is the best thing to craft, and if you get this list of materials and push a button, you're done, then yeah, that's going to be terrible.
Comments
It allows those that put in the time and money to have "good" stuff.. but not overly powering tho. Until it comes to eldar, they are OPed AF, just all around.
I kinda hope that CU and CF go in this direction.. we shall see.
I have already stated 3 things over and over,raids are NEVER needed in a game,you can do BOTH grouping AND soloing because FFXI proved it.So unless devs are stunned ,not paying attention,still living on their OLD games then they SHOULD be able to figure it out.
Time imo should always be a factor,it is a real life idea because anyone doing something a LOT and even repetitively will obviously get better at it.If you handed someone a hockey stick and said here go shoot the puck 3x and another guy practiced shooting for a month,i guarantee the second guy will be a hundred times better at it.
Now an area developer's have missed out on are "trainers",you know just like in real life,someone teaches you how to do something properly.I do NOT want to see how trainers were used in old school games that was just retarded,spend points get a new level.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
If at first you dont succeed, call it version 1.0
Long ago I read their might be some area for very new players to cut their teeth on but then they would move into the main RVR world with everyone else.
Alledgedly CU was still to have some form of progression, but nothing like the gaps DAOC had.
Proof is in the execution which I've not heard of much these days.
Ever since going into beta news on it has been surprisingly quiet. I still get the newsletters but as always they are full of "busy, busy, busy" without saying much of anything of import.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
this game isn't meant for casual gamers.
and we are allll happy about it.
you want a casual game, there are enough out there.
this one is for pvp players, and quite frankly, pvp IS NOT CASUAL.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
At the end of the day it's all about maintaining the illusion so the average player believes they have a chance to be competitive.
The reality is the best players will always rise to the top if they spend more time practicing, min / maxing their builds, understanding its strengths and weaknesses against others and possessing far greater natural talent regardless of actual game design.
Other players fool themselves into thinking they are competitive but even if the tools are completely even they'd still get crushed more often than they'd like, so devs have to make sure the players never truly realize it, or at least not have it rubbed in their face publically.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just level the playing field, and make it a game of skill not grind, and casuals will be more then happy to kick your ass all over the place..
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But when people talk to me about the skills and abilities of "hardcore" players, .. well.. I just keep in mind, that all Hack and Cheat, and other 3rd party software is designed to target Hardcore players, because they can't be competitive on their skills alone while playing the game as intended.
I mean, I'd love to respect "Hardcore" players, but lets get real, this is the demographic of players that will pay a subscription fee to use a hack program for a Free 2 Play game..
And it matters whether "success" is tied to time played. Many times it isn't.
For example, most guilds who pride themselves on how successful they are don't measure their success in time played. Quite the opposite. They want to get in, kill the top boss, get the best gear in as little time as possible.
So really I think you have it backwards.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Yes I agree a player that plays 20 hours a week should be able to compete with a player who plays 40 hours a week. Now if it comes down to which is more skilled not which is more gear and that 40 hour a week player is just way more skilled then nothing we can do.
Like being a good crafter in this game is going to require effort. Thinking you are going to grab a bunch of Iron and make the best stuff in game in a week and be rich is a pipe dream. Only those crafters willing to figure out really good combos with their mats making very good gear will be the best crafters. Everyone else that wants to do it as a past time will suck ass.
Reality is, within a week after going Open Beta (maybe sooner) the best recopies and crafting methods will be mathed out and posted on game guides.
Form there everyone will just copy/past the best combos and by the end of the month crafting will be homogenized across anyone that wanted to take that route.
At that point, it all be a matter of a crafter getting funded by a guild to cut down on their personal materials cost to generate better profit margins allowing them to undercut their competitions.
Given the games design, I wager by the time Crafters get into the higher end stuff, which will not be long at all, they will be having their guild help acquire the rare and most coveted materials in the game, which no doubt players will need to fight each other over.
If you think you are going to sit at a forge and invent some super secret combo and become some legendary crafter of great renown, ... now THAT is a pipe dream.
That's how I look at things
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
The early DAOC banter was imo a poor choice to try and hype up THIS game.You build a game and hype it based on merit and NOT on some past laurels.
Unless some god from the heavens touches this game it will at least imo never be even a 5/10.It will be a world,yeah we seen a thousand of those before with trees and water and rocks and it will be pvp,yep seen that b4 a thousand times as well.
If people THINK they need yet another game like this with a different skin,then all the power to you...enjoy.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I don't know if Camelot Unchained will do any of those things. But that they've been done in the past proves that it's possible. If it's a straightforward situation of, this is the best thing to craft, and if you get this list of materials and push a button, you're done, then yeah, that's going to be terrible.