Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

I hope this game appeals to casual players

LedrirLedrir Member UncommonPosts: 69
Otherwise, this game will not last long.  If the game doesn't allow casual players to be successful and have fun then they will leave.  Then all that will be left is hardcore gamers.  Then the hardcore players will leave because they say the servers are too empty.   

Its a death spiral that happened to DAoC when trials of atlantis released and allowed the hardcore gamers to gain too big of an advantage over casual players. Though to be fair some of the imbalances were already there before trials of atlantis.

I do think that Camelot Unchained is on the right track with the philosophy of horizontal progression.  Hopefully that will mean small incremental power gains for players that don't unbalance the game.
Octagon7711sumdumguy1YashaX
«13

Comments

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,095
    If casual players can be as successful as those who put time in, what's the point of putting time in?
    HatefullCayleraAlmostLancelotYashaXmcd6993

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,347
    Scot said:
    If casual players can be as successful as those who put time in, what's the point of putting time in?
    Touché!
    Scot
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,558
    Scot said:
    If casual players can be as successful as those who put time in, what's the point of putting time in?

    This is where skill comes into play hopefully, as it's a PvP game so guild or group that works better together should have the upper hand.

    Time put in is only valid if you are actually improving your character - if someone puts in 2 years but they are no better in skill when they started -  it's just time wasted.

    The mechanic of time put in = being the only way to get stronger - IMO this is where old school games failed.

    If you look at the most popular PvP games today - it's almost 100% skill that gets rewarded, not time put in to get better gear than noobs.



    H0urg1assConstantineMerusLedrirScotKyleranPhrytweedledumb99LokeroHatefullArteriusand 7 others.
  • ManestreamManestream Member UncommonPosts: 936
    pure pvp game i doubt i will be going to that 1
    SignexCiccerosumdumguy1
  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,278
    Scot said:
    If casual players can be as successful as those who put time in, what's the point of putting time in?
    I think the OP has a point.  If there are game mechanics in place that allow hardcore, 8+ hours a day grinding, to pull away from the average player in other ways, such as more powerful gear, then this game will fail.

    If I only have two hours a day to play, and every time I log in I lose massively to someone who has a huge gear advantage, then I'll just leave.

    It's the reason I don't PVP in SWTOR anymore.  I took a job that kept me on the road for most of a year, came back to the game and found out that they had released all new PVP sets, and the hardcore players all had them, and my PVP set was so out of date, that no matter how good I was I got spanked in every confrontation... and believe me, I was a fantastic Jedi Shadow in PVP.  So eventually, I moved on and let them have their gear disparity based PVP game to themselves.
    Octagon7711LedrirKyleranTorvalMrMelGibsonYashaX
  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,347
    DMKano said:
    Scot said:
    If casual players can be as successful as those who put time in, what's the point of putting time in?


    The mechanic of time put in = being the only way to get stronger - IMO this is where old school games failed.

    If you look at the most popular PvP games today - it's almost 100% skill that gets rewarded, not time put in to get better gear than noobs.



    In my opinion time put in = getting stronger  is the only way to go for PvE MMORPGs. As for PvP games like MOBAs and other similar games, time (or gear for that matter) should have no part in how well a player does in-game. These games should always be about player skill.

    That's the reason why these two styles of gameplay are so hard to combine in one game, and to be honest, i'm not sure if there's even need for that. Let the character builders and player killers both have the game that suits best for their taste. 
    H0urg1assLedrirKyleranMrMelGibson
  • JDis25JDis25 Member RarePosts: 1,350
    My thought is that time invested is important, but their needs to be a ceiling. Maybe 9 months for a hardcore player and 1.5-2 years for a casual player. After that you are capped on gear, and no new gear is introduced.

    I hate the idea of introducing gear as content, introduce actual content not extra gear/levels/power. If you need rewards for this new content, make them cosmetic and exclusive to those who can clear it. It will be worth it do difficult content if you are able to walk around in the most bad-ass looking outfit and mount.

    So yeah, as long as a casual player can catch up to the people who rush. I think it's fine.
    AethaerynH0urg1assLedrirKyleranSignexMrMelGibson
    Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War
    Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,622
    Its to my understanding the main "selling" point of a lot of these crowdfunded titles if to aim at a niche audience from the start. There's plenty of casual mmorpgs on the market, so competing with them directly will already make them fail before they even launch since the main stream person will always ask "why should I waste time/money on something new if it ends up being the same as what I'm playing now?"

    'Success' doesn't always mean 'popular' which I think a lot of people aren't understanding in today's market. Its always going to mean something different to different groups/companies etc. One might argue that if you have larger numbers then you'll automatically make more money since you have more potential of money exchanging hands, but is that really accurate? A major rule for most success companies is to never factor in 'chance' since its not something that can be recorded. You can put SE's FFXIV against Blizzard's WoW and I guarantee you the numbers wont be that much different even though the populations are significantly different.

    This team and others can deem their project a 'success' if they are able to craft a product that is self-sustainable and can crank out about 2 updates a year depending on how long 'progression' takes. If they're hoping to be the biggest and best thing of mmorpg, that's just a waste of money since no game will ever be that way again.
    deniterGdemami
  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,018
    Scot said:
    If casual players can be as successful as those who put time in, what's the point of putting time in?
    They don't have to be "as" successful. . it just can't be such a power gap that there is no point..  not in a PvP based game. . work should pay off though.  .Generally you will know the game mechanics better as well, which is an advantage.  I loved DAoC but will likely skip this one.
    H0urg1assOctagon7711TorvalMrMelGibson

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • HarikenHariken Member RarePosts: 2,384
    It won't 
    I heard its supposed to be a more hardcore PVP game than DAOC was. The game will be niche at best.
    Octagon7711
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,856
    Sure, the game is an eight hour job for developers but should it be for all their players?  
    KyleranTorvalMrMelGibson

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 2,770
    With the state it is in (Early Alpha being sold to us as Beta 1) you better hope it gets finished before worrying about anything else. 

    meddyckYashaX
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,095
    edited December 2018
    deniter said:
    DMKano said:
    Scot said:
    If casual players can be as successful as those who put time in, what's the point of putting time in?


    The mechanic of time put in = being the only way to get stronger - IMO this is where old school games failed.

    If you look at the most popular PvP games today - it's almost 100% skill that gets rewarded, not time put in to get better gear than noobs.



    In my opinion time put in = getting stronger  is the only way to go for PvE MMORPGs. As for PvP games like MOBAs and other similar games, time (or gear for that matter) should have no part in how well a player does in-game. These games should always be about player skill.

    That's the reason why these two styles of gameplay are so hard to combine in one game, and to be honest, i'm not sure if there's even need for that. Let the character builders and player killers both have the game that suits best for their taste. 
    This is where I stand, for raids, and other collective player against the game activities it should be the case that more time in game makes you a higher level or whatever. There is skill here, but this is the reward for putting the time in.

    When it come to PvP, players should be far more balanced, perhaps not even having different sets of powers and abilities, but ones designed for PvP.

    Indeed, I know its a big ask, but what about trinity style combat MMO with core inner PvE lands but surrounded by Badlands where it changes to action combat and level does not matter? The only way to solve the issues we have raised is to effectively have two games in one MMO. But then GW 1 did try to do just that. 

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,368
    edited December 2018
    Scot said:
    deniter said:
    DMKano said:
    Scot said:
    If casual players can be as successful as those who put time in, what's the point of putting time in?


    The mechanic of time put in = being the only way to get stronger - IMO this is where old school games failed.

    If you look at the most popular PvP games today - it's almost 100% skill that gets rewarded, not time put in to get better gear than noobs.



    In my opinion time put in = getting stronger  is the only way to go for PvE MMORPGs. As for PvP games like MOBAs and other similar games, time (or gear for that matter) should have no part in how well a player does in-game. These games should always be about player skill.

    That's the reason why these two styles of gameplay are so hard to combine in one game, and to be honest, i'm not sure if there's even need for that. Let the character builders and player killers both have the game that suits best for their taste. 
    This is where I stand, for raids, and other collective player against the game activities it should be the case that more time in game makes you a higher level or whatever. There is skill here, but this is the reward for putting the time in.

    When it come to PvP, players should be far more balanced, perhaps not even having different sets of powers and abilities, but ones designed for PvP.

    Indeed, I know its a big ask, but what about trinity style combat MMO with core inner PvE lands but surrounded by Badlands where it changes to action combat and level does not matter? The only way to solve the issues we have raised is to effectively have two games in one MMO. But then GW 1 did try to do just that. 
    Only if you want brand new players to be equally competitive with veterans in PVP are purely skill based systems necessary.

    If maintaining some sort of advantage for veterans is desired, level & skill caps at reasonable points can work which was true of DAOC at first, until they fell prey to the expansion demons in TOA.

    The solution CCP came up with in EVE of putting level caps on skills with small gaps between them was terrific for me, especially as skill training was continually always on so no longer was I automatically a second class citizen to those who could play 8 hours a day.

    It also permitted me to catch up to those who started years before me on a ship by ship or activity any activity basis, not leaving me hopelessly disadvantaged.

    This system took time of course, but any player could get to a very competitive level with the most senior vets within 6 months to a year,  too long for some I realize, but for a casual player like me it was the ideal system.

    I haven't played seriously in almost two years, yet were I to go back, I would not be any less competitive from a character perspective than when I left, nor is anyone who has double my skill points really any better.

    In fact, because I seriously trained 3 characters for many years and 3 others to fill in some gaps, there is almost no ship hull style I cant fly with all level 5 skills except a few super capitals which I never felt the need for. (Which does not mean I can fight all roles and hulls equally well, that's where practice and skill factor in)

    Still some open areas, never devoted time to industry, but after that and supers there isn't much else I still can't do.

    The system is actually one of the more brilliant out there with one big downside,  players who feel the need to "work" for their skill progression,  especially those who do so basically from putting more time in game often loath losing their advantage over the more casual gamer.

    But this is where player skill comes in, if you put in more time you generally are more skilled at fighting your ship hulls of choice, most PVPer even with far less skills can easily destroy me in a one on one, fair fight.

    But of course, if I'm ever in a fair fight, I've done something terribly wrong.

    ;)



    deniterScot

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,011
    No.  No game has to cater to the casual 15 a minute a week gamer period.  That is what got us in this mess in the first place.  Yes there is casual schedule gamers that cant play 8 hours a day.   But there is a big difference between that and the 15 a minute a week gamer that cries their eyes how that they dont have everything handed to them and the same experience as someone who plays 8 hours a day.  OP people like you need to stop posting BS about how casual a game needs to be because its a crock and you cause games to become a pile of crap.    Games should be designed well enough that players can experience large amounts of the content even if they only play 4 to 5 hours a week but not if you play an hour a week.  Period.   If you are not willing to put the effort in the game SHOULD NOT cater to you.   Period. 
    MrMelGibsonKyleranvandal5627
  • RnjypsyRnjypsy Member UncommonPosts: 63
    PVP should not be gear based...period.

    meddyckYashaXOctagon7711
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 249
    edited December 2018
    (Numbers made up by me for clarity, not taken from the devs.)

    Gear is gonna play some small role, but not add much power to your character, maybe 7-15% in absolute power between the first real gear set you get in game to the best end-game one.

    More than absolute power increases, better gear will let you specialize more in your style of play (for example, armor that's tougher but makes you move slower if you want to tank, armor that is weaker to physical attacks but stronger against magic damage if you want to be a mage killer, etc.).

    Re: casual appeal, the thing is, this is a game where player vs. player is the basis (Realm v. Realm, but that's still player against player).

    If casual means "I learn and understand gameplay, mechanics, metas really well, and keep up-to-date, but only play 4-8 hours a week," then that casual player can probably do fine in this game.

    If casual means "expect to waltz in as a new player with new gear, a low understanding of your class and how to play, but still expect to do well purely on your twitch and reaction skills, against a skilled veteran who has a deep understanding of positioning, class balance, their own abilities and yours, which gear to use for which situation," then no, you won't do well as a casual in this game.
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967

    Camelot Unchained BETTER appeal to people who just want to play a good game. Doing so doesn't mean systems have to get "dumbed down" or oversimplified though.


    I'm really starting to understand that many in the MMORPG player base are typically folks who want to be "good" by how many excessive hours they can dump into having the client on, not how good they are at actually playing aspects of the game.

    The whole "casuals shouldn't be good unless they time sink more than me or started at the same time as me" thing is part of the reason the genre is in hospice. It's always been weird watching folks go on negatively about "casuals" especially when it isn't pertaining to coordinated raiding, competitive combat, or other aspects that require practice, understanding and muscle memory.

    Don't be like that, it will hurt the health of the game you claim to love in the long run.
    MendelTorvalMrMelGibsonKylerantweedledumb99mysticmouseOctagon7711
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,219
    DMKano said:
    Scot said:
    If casual players can be as successful as those who put time in, what's the point of putting time in?

    This is where skill comes into play hopefully, as it's a PvP game so guild or group that works better together should have the upper hand.

    Time put in is only valid if you are actually improving your character - if someone puts in 2 years but they are no better in skill when they started -  it's just time wasted.

    The mechanic of time put in = being the only way to get stronger - IMO this is where old school games failed.

    If you look at the most popular PvP games today - it's almost 100% skill that gets rewarded, not time put in to get better gear than noobs.



    You hit the nail on the head (IMO). A not often used (anymore) saying in PS2 is; TEamwork is OP! and it is true. The outfits that work better together, see a lot more success. You do not necessarily need to be the best shot, support is just as important as assault.

     I agree that time/equipment < Skill in a PvP game, and arguably in a PvE game. Individual skill should be important, and the ability to work as a team should be king.

    Daoc still has servers running today. In my mind that indicates they did something right.
    jimmywolftweedledumb99

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,095
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    deniter said:
    DMKano said:
    Scot said:
    If casual players can be as successful as those who put time in, what's the point of putting time in?


    The mechanic of time put in = being the only way to get stronger - IMO this is where old school games failed.

    If you look at the most popular PvP games today - it's almost 100% skill that gets rewarded, not time put in to get better gear than noobs.



    In my opinion time put in = getting stronger  is the only way to go for PvE MMORPGs. As for PvP games like MOBAs and other similar games, time (or gear for that matter) should have no part in how well a player does in-game. These games should always be about player skill.

    That's the reason why these two styles of gameplay are so hard to combine in one game, and to be honest, i'm not sure if there's even need for that. Let the character builders and player killers both have the game that suits best for their taste. 
    This is where I stand, for raids, and other collective player against the game activities it should be the case that more time in game makes you a higher level or whatever. There is skill here, but this is the reward for putting the time in.

    When it come to PvP, players should be far more balanced, perhaps not even having different sets of powers and abilities, but ones designed for PvP.

    Indeed, I know its a big ask, but what about trinity style combat MMO with core inner PvE lands but surrounded by Badlands where it changes to action combat and level does not matter? The only way to solve the issues we have raised is to effectively have two games in one MMO. But then GW 1 did try to do just that. 
    Only if you want brand new players to be equally competitive with veterans in PVP are purely skill based systems necessary.

    If maintaining some sort of advantage for veterans is desired, level & skill caps at reasonable points can work which was true of DAOC at first, until they fell prey to the expansion demons in TOA.

    The solution CCP came up with in EVE of putting level caps on skills with small gaps between them was terrific for me, especially as skill training was continually always on so no longer was I automatically a second class citizen to those who could play 8 hours a day.

    It also permitted me to catch up to those who started years before me on a ship by ship or activity any activity basis, not leaving me hopelessly disadvantaged.

    This system took time of course, but any player could get to a very competitive level with the most senior vets within 6 months to a year,  too long for some I realize, but for a casual player like me it was the ideal system.

    I haven't played seriously in almost two years, yet were I to go back, I would not be any less competitive from a character perspective than when I left, nor is anyone who has double my skill points really any better.

    In fact, because I seriously trained 3 characters for many years and 3 others to fill in some gaps, there is almost no ship hull style I cant fly with all level 5 skills except a few super capitals which I never felt the need for. (Which does not mean I can fight all roles and hulls equally well, that's where practice and skill factor in)

    Still some open areas, never devoted time to industry, but after that and supers there isn't much else I still can't do.

    The system is actually one of the more brilliant out there with one big downside,  players who feel the need to "work" for their skill progression,  especially those who do so basically from putting more time in game often loath losing their advantage over the more casual gamer.

    But this is where player skill comes in, if you put in more time you generally are more skilled at fighting your ship hulls of choice, most PVPer even with far less skills can easily destroy me in a one on one, fair fight.

    But of course, if I'm ever in a fair fight, I've done something terribly wrong.

    ;)



    You can give those who put some time in marginal benefits in PVP, but the call for more will always be there. So it is a tricky balancing act, you could for example limit the level people can start PvP, they have done there share of grind then. But I don't advocate a specific system here, just that it tends to be better to draw a line between PvP and PvE somehow.
    Kyleran

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,567
    I seem to remember them saying the game would be niche and they were making a subscription game. I doubt that there will be many casuals if it's subs.

    I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Mark said it was subs.
    HarikenTorvalMrMelGibsonKylerantweedledumb99YashaX
  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 2,036
    I seem to remember them saying the game would be niche and they were making a subscription game. I doubt that there will be many casuals if it's subs.

    I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Mark said it was subs.
    is a sub game only. For $190 you can buy a life time membership... I have been on the fence about it. I haven't taken the plunge on it yet. 
    meddyck
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 8,156
    This is mostly an issue pvp centric games face since there is less competition for survival in games with mostly PvE, unless you count bragging rights of who has the most trinkets. It's one reason I have strayed away from games like this over the years. I don't have the time or the want to put in building an Ultra OP character just to actually be able to play and enjoy a game. 
    meddyckOctagon7711


  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,131
    No one is arguing that the worst players need to fare just as well as the best.  But players who are substantially below average (whether in time spent, player skill, or whatever) need to be able to accomplish things and have fun.  Otherwise, they will get sick of the game and leave.  And then the players who used to be average then be below average among those who are left, and then they'll get sick of the game and leave, too.  And so on as this works its way upward until the game is dead.

    If substantially below average players aren't able to do anything other than die a lot, that's not fun.  If they're able to accomplish things, have fun, and be on the winning side in some sense a substantial fraction of the time in spite of dying twice as often as they kill someone else, that's fine.
    MrMelGibsonKylerantweedledumb99Octagon7711
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,131
    JDis25 said:
    My thought is that time invested is important, but their needs to be a ceiling. Maybe 9 months for a hardcore player and 1.5-2 years for a casual player. After that you are capped on gear, and no new gear is introduced.
    If it's going to take several months around dying a lot and being miserable before you can be competitive, then why bother paying the game at all?
    MrMelGibsontweedledumb99Octagon7711
Sign In or Register to comment.