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CoE selling Legendary items for straight cash also unretiring Duke and Count packages

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,332
    I am sure this guy had some grand and really good ideas but it won't happen,sorry to be bearer of bad news but it won't.
    craftseekerMendel

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,963
    -As we all know SBS is crowdfunded, thus the $10 token system, which not only acted as a vote but also provided EP for the purchaser. Those that played had to prove themselves as leaders in order to be given tokens by other players. So, the winning individuals won with community involvement, not their own cash. In addition, I think all the Counties were acquired with the low cost of 5 tokens each. Valued at $50. So once again the players that won were not whales. 
    So?  Without buying more advantages they will be the weakest kingdom or county. Always far weaker than their peers. 


    -Regardless if they are alts or remain, peasants, there is still a large number of new players that just wanted to try the game and were given the opportunity to try it free of charge... No matter how the mechanics of the event were perceived,  it did spark a lot of community collaboration in finding the cure.
    Oh God that event was a disaster... I was in multiple Discord’s and everyone hated it.

    -If you buy an Elyrian package, or win one and remain a peasant through-out the game, then you are definitely not playing the game right. 
    As just 1-2% of the population can ever be a noble you just proved my point.  Thanks!

    -Your acquiring two Elyrian packages does have something to do with the conversation. It is proof that by involving yourself in the community events, which you seem to do on a regular basis, you can acquire things without spending. 
    Which has nothing to do with the huge, insurmountable advantages being bought.  Those accounts will ALWAYS exist in lands ultimately owned by some Noble who spent massive money before the game started and can raise my taxes or pass laws I hate any time they want.



    craftseeker

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited December 2018
    Wizardry said:
    Imo this is a very obvious business to figure out.

    They had hoped wit their sales pitch they would get investors and might very well already have some,which btw undermines crowd funder's.
    They did not get the response in investors over time and have had to change the entire scope of the operation.
    My stance,you CANNOT build a quality game like this,no way no how.All they will do is try and keep paying their wages,collecting their salaries and hopefully one day release a game.As a non invested consumer,i already gave up on this game.
    There is ONLY one game that mildly has a chance in the next couple years and that is because it is being built by two large pocket books and using an already successful template.

    Even if a game has a remote chance there are underlying factors that brings a game right back down,cash shops,unequal treatment of players,p2w,and goofy ideas like seems every game dev now wants their game to play like a ARPG or moba,nothing remotely plausible looking,just nonsense.
    Mhmm, I am well aware of the many concerns you have. And that is fine, you very well could be right in all aspects. But you could be wrong too, right? I mean hell none of us is right all the time are we? There is a large proven demographic of backers that believe differently and are willing to support the vision of CoE.

    What I don't understand is the number of debates that are based off peoples crystal ball assumptions. Like intended, crucial game mechanics will be non-existent.

    Will CoE launch? Like I said none of us know, till it shuts down, or launches. So why the endless debate. As soon as a topic gets interesting, someone makes the comment "Doesn't matter it won't launch anyways" From what I can see they continue to develop the game and show no signs of closing down any time soon. 

    By the look of support that CoE has acquired over the last couple of years, there is clearly a large demographic that wants the success of what SBS is attempting to do and perceives the game differently... So it is possible they will reach launch. Are the supporters right or wrong? Doesn't matter, it is their choice. Will that demographic expand after launch and become big enough to support the game? I certainly hope so, but it might not. 

    Has CoE experienced growing pains and had to make changes in their development? Yes, I agree they have. Some that I myself have questioned and gathered more information about, to find clarity in what they were attempting to do. I also take into consideration they are a New and Small studio. They, have not changed the -entire- scope of the game. They simply refrained from investors that wanted to change their game, to crowdfunding, for now.

    I do know though, that it is crucial to the game that players joining after launch enjoy it enough to stick around and have the ability to progress in whatever direction they want. Because without them,  the inequality, the conflict, the envy, the deviancy, ambition, and greed, the game would pretty figgen boring; sitting up there in your store-bought castle all alone with nothing to fight against...  So if SBS was to implement the changes assumed here, then yes, the game would be most certainly destined for failure. 

    We all know SBS doesn't have an investor and is relying on Crowdfunding for now. So it shouldn't be a surprise that they are finding ways to bring in revenue with their Events. These P2W conversations are like beating a dead horse in every single thread. Some think it is, Some think it isn't. I think if it is not the game for you, don't play it. Not every game created appeals to every demographic of player... And every game out there has different degrees of what is considered P2W.

    It would be so nice to have a debate in here where the conversation remains on point and isn't always brought back to these above factors. 



     
    Post edited by mystichaze on
    craftseeker
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,963
    edited December 2018
    If you want to discuss a non Pay for Advantage topic start one.  As far as the current playerbase I believe it’s around 20k accounts last I heard.  Of which maybe half participated in the last few events...  

    So I’d say 10k actives.

    They have deep pockets... without question. That’s the point of this thread after all.  But the size is tiny for an MMO with 4 different servers all meant for 100k characters.  How many FFA PvP games with looting actually have hundreds of thousands of players? Toss in permadeath and then all the pre-bought advantages on top of that...It takes not just one... but multiple leaps of faith to get to any scenario where there are hundreds of thousands of CoE players.
    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited December 2018
    If you want to discuss a non Pay for Advantage topic start one.  As far as the current playerbase I believe it’s around 20k accounts last I heard.  Of which maybe half participated in the last few events...  

    So I’d say 10k actives.

    They have deep pockets... without question. That’s the point of this thread after all.  But the size is tiny for an MMO with 4 different servers all meant for 100k characters.  How many FFA PvP games with looting actually have hundreds of thousands of players? Toss in permadeath and then all the pre-bought advantages on top of that...It takes not just one... but multiple leaps of faith to get to any scenario where there are hundreds of thousands of CoE players.
    Not everyone is going to be active in these forum games, that goes without saying. Deep pockets? I agree some have spent vast amounts of money. Far more then I would be comfortable with, but it's their choice. I definitely don't want the responsibility of those positions and I don't believe it will be as advantageous as you do, but we can just agree to disagree. 

    Let's just say you are right, the only ones that will ever succeed in CoE are the ones that paid during Exposition, and there is no possible way to overthrow them. Also, consider that there is no shop after launch. Where will SBS gain enough revenue to support the game for ten years? Not from the Whales because there is no longer a store. Not from the after launch players because it isn't fun. How could that game structure benefit SBS, the Backers or the game in anyway at all?  I agree SBS has misjudged some things but I believe they are intelligent enough to recognize this as a bad business plan.

    It is not a game I would want to play as a Noble or a Peasant, nor invest in, and not my perception of what SBS is attempting to do. Without satisfied players after launch, SBS won't have a chance, that is a given since they are intended to create more than 95% of the games populous. Therefore, it is in their best interest to allow those players to progress and create their own historical stories just like CoE have told us they would since before Kickstarter. 

    CoE is trying something different, that is focused mainly on the roleplaying genre, so to compare it to what is out there without examining the design differences, is like comparing apples and oranges. 


    Post edited by mystichaze on
    Kyleran
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,963
    Mystic... the proof is in the pudding.  He tried to get investors and they turned him down.  So it’s not just Slapshot saying their revenue model won’t work as stated but so far every investor and publisher has said the same thing.

    As far as deep pockets... the small playerbase raised $5M.  That’s really deep.  Especially because I’d wager that the top 20% make up 80% of the funding.  

    Its why why he’s going to keep squeezing blood from them by releasing thing like more Legendary items.  The secret sauce is the stuff that give huge advantages in game.  It’s no coincidence that sales spiked when they started selling noble slots again.  And it’s no surprise that he kept the sales open for the foreseeable future.  
    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited December 2018
    Your right the proof is in the pudding and we shall see in time. One of us might get to say I told you so. :P 

    Yes, SBS was turned down by some investors and they turned down others due to the Investors wanting to change the scope of the game. It was the business decision they felt most comfortable with.

    The sales were of no surprise to me either now that server selection has transpired and they have a better idea of how many of those positions still exist on each server. 

    Legendary, in this case simply means it is a historic location. 

    One thing I know for sure is Caspian can't make anyone support his game financially if they don't want too, no matter what he puts in the store. If people are overspending in an attempt to better secure themselves in-game, I say go for it. Because in reality, it only gives them more to protect, maintain, and lose after launch.  Assuming the intended mechanics are implemented into the game, of course. 

    The thing I noticed that you failed to recognize in my entire post is that without the 95% of happy players after launch, there is no game for anyone to play.


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,963
    Your right the proof is in the pudding and we shall see in time. One of us might get to say I told you so. :P 

    Yes, SBS was turned down by some investors and they turned down others due to the Investors wanting to change the scope of the game. It was the business decision they felt most comfortable with.

    The sales were of no surprise to me either now that server selection has transpired and they have a better idea of how many of those positions still exist on each server. 

    Legendary, in this case simply means it is a historic location. 

    One thing I know for sure is Caspian can't make anyone support his game financially if they don't want too, no matter what he puts in the store. If people are overspending in an attempt to better secure themselves in-game, I say go for it. Because in reality, it only gives them more to protect and lose after launch.  Assuming the intended mechanics are implemented into the game, of course. 

    The thing I noticed that you failed to recognize in my entire post is that without the 95% of happy players after launch, there is no game for anyone to play.


    Mystic...  it’s just another unreasonable leap of faith.  There is no way.. as in zero percent chance that 95% of players at launch will be happy.  That’s just not realistic for any MMORPG.   What you are saying just demonstrates a complete disconnect from reality. That’s honestly not an attempt at being mean but seriously games just do not launch with that kind of retention.  When you toss PvP, looting, permadeath, on top and combine it with the inevitable rough start (bugs, lag, downtime, exploits) the realistic retention rate is a fraction of that. 
    craftseekerGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited December 2018
    Your right the proof is in the pudding and we shall see in time. One of us might get to say I told you so. :P 

    Yes, SBS was turned down by some investors and they turned down others due to the Investors wanting to change the scope of the game. It was the business decision they felt most comfortable with.

    The sales were of no surprise to me either now that server selection has transpired and they have a better idea of how many of those positions still exist on each server. 

    Legendary, in this case simply means it is a historic location. 

    One thing I know for sure is Caspian can't make anyone support his game financially if they don't want too, no matter what he puts in the store. If people are overspending in an attempt to better secure themselves in-game, I say go for it. Because in reality, it only gives them more to protect and lose after launch.  Assuming the intended mechanics are implemented into the game, of course. 

    The thing I noticed that you failed to recognize in my entire post is that without the 95% of happy players after launch, there is no game for anyone to play.


    Mystic...  it’s just another unreasonable leap of faith.  There is no way.. as in zero percent chance that 95% of players at launch will be happy.  That’s just not realistic for any MMORPG.   What you are saying just demonstrates a complete disconnect from reality. That’s honestly not an attempt at being mean but seriously games just do not launch with that kind of retention.  When you toss PvP, looting, permadeath, on top and combine it with the inevitable rough start (bugs, lag, downtime, exploits) the realistic retention rate is a fraction of that. 
    Because I don't agree with you or have a different opinion then you I don't think it warrants assuming I have disconnected with reality. 

    Let me explain this better. I know full well you won't have the complete player base happy with your product no matter what the game is. However, I do see how what I said could be perceived that way...

    We will go with your numbers as to there is only 20k backer support currently. Spread over 4 servers. Each server has six Kingdoms and 301 Noble seats per Kindom resulting in1806 Noble seats in each server. Divided equally for argument sake they would have 5K Exposition players per server. With packages ranging from bloodline and up so those players will be focused on other aspects of the game, and not all Nobility, plus spread across the entire map.  

    On a map that large those 5k Expo players will be spread out pretty thin. The hope, and perhaps it is a leap of faith on the communities part, is to eventually, over time acquire enough interest in the game to support servers with a minimum of 95k player base each. Is it possible? I hope so, but I am aware it is a bit of a reach and won't be accomplished overnight. In addition, to CoE having to prove themselves. I count a lot on commitment over time, the fact that once Roleplayers find a place they are happy, they bring all their friends and they tend to bounce from game to game a lot less, which creates loyalty and return business. 

    This leads me to my point once again, that without focusing on encouraging and rewarding gameplay for players after launch, it really doesn't matter what is spent now because there would definitely be no chance at a game after launch...

    Simply assuming game mechanics that support the intention of the game aren't going to exist, because someone has decided that SBS isn't doing that. Doesn't make it true. 

    Post edited by mystichaze on
    craftseeker
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,619
    edited December 2018
    Your right the proof is in the pudding and we shall see in time. One of us might get to say I told you so. :P 

    Yes, SBS was turned down by some investors and they turned down others due to the Investors wanting to change the scope of the game. It was the business decision they felt most comfortable with.

    The sales were of no surprise to me either now that server selection has transpired and they have a better idea of how many of those positions still exist on each server. 

    Legendary, in this case simply means it is a historic location. 

    One thing I know for sure is Caspian can't make anyone support his game financially if they don't want too, no matter what he puts in the store. If people are overspending in an attempt to better secure themselves in-game, I say go for it. Because in reality, it only gives them more to protect and lose after launch.  Assuming the intended mechanics are implemented into the game, of course. 

    The thing I noticed that you failed to recognize in my entire post is that without the 95% of happy players after launch, there is no game for anyone to play.


    Mystic...  it’s just another unreasonable leap of faith.  There is no way.. as in zero percent chance that 95% of players at launch will be happy.  That’s just not realistic for any MMORPG.   What you are saying just demonstrates a complete disconnect from reality. That’s honestly not an attempt at being mean but seriously games just do not launch with that kind of retention.  When you toss PvP, looting, permadeath, on top and combine it with the inevitable rough start (bugs, lag, downtime, exploits) the realistic retention rate is a fraction of that. 
    Because I don't agree with you or have a different opinion then you I don't think it warrants assuming I have disconnected with reality. 

    Let me explain this better. I know full well you won't have the complete player base happy with your product no matter what the game is. However, I do see how what I said could be perceived that way...

    We will go with your numbers as to there is only 20k backer support currently. Spread over 4 servers. Each server has six Kingdoms and 301 Noble seats per Kindom resulting in1806 Noble seats in each server. Divided equally for argument sake they would have 5K Exposition players per server. With packages ranging from bloodline and up so those players will be focused on other aspects of the game, and not all Nobility, plus spread across the entire map.  

    On a map that large those 5k Expo players will be spread out pretty thin. The hope, and perhaps it is a leap of faith on the communities part, is to eventually, over time acquire enough interest in the game to support servers with a minimum of 95k player base each. Is it possible? I hope so, but I am aware it is a bit of a reach and won't be accomplished overnight. In addition, to CoE having to prove themselves. I count a lot on commitment over time, the fact that once Roleplayers find a place they are happy, they bring all their friends and they tend to bounce from game to game a lot less, which creates loyalty and return business. 

    This leads me to my point once again, that without focusing on encouraging and rewarding gameplay for players after launch, it really doesn't matter what is spent now because there would definitely be no chance at a game after launch...

    Simply assuming game mechanics that support the intention of the game aren't going to exist, because someone has decided that SBS isn't doing that. Doesn't make it true. 

    Experience has shown that until a developer actually delivers a proposed mechanic in a finished product it's best to remain skeptical of whether or not it "exists" and / or is working as intended. 


    AnOldFartmystichazeGdemami

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    @kyleran I agree totally and am just as eager as everyone else to see something that reveals some proof of SBS's vision in action. We have waited a long time as game development is a slow process, but I think at the rate we have seen things being released lately, we will start seeing some new content in the New Year.

    As your statement implies it is common Knowledge to assume there will not be changes through-out a game development, is naive. I also agree.  However, disregarding intended, core game mechanics, with nothing to support your statement except a desire to win a debate, goes above and beyond Skepticism.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,963
    edited December 2018
    Damn I had a long post with links and all that I typed up on my phone and then hit back while proofreading and lost it. Need to leave for airport so you will just have to imagine it’s awesomene.

    In essence-  Mystic you better hope you are wrong that the game will fail unless 95% of the players are happy at launch.  Name one FFA PvP game with looting that launched in the last decade with numbers like that. Or 90.. 80... 50?

    This game is going to have a rough launch even by MMORPG standards.  It’s going to have bugs, imbalances, exploits... all the normal launch issues.   Not really much related to the OP but I think it’s an interesting path you have taken us down.  You can’t argue facts or logic with faith and that’s why we have a disconnect in my opinion. You can accept what Caspien says without questioning the how of it.  I’m an engineer by trade so it’s utterly against my nature to do that.

    Not proofreading so use your imagination for any strange words above.
    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher Member UncommonPosts: 263
    edited December 2018
    There's no set expiration date for the items purchased.


    As much as so many like to point out that these items won't remain in the original owner's possession or will be destroyed relatively quickly, you have nothing that guarantees any of that happening.  Nothing at all.  Depending upon the details of the game mechanics, it could end up being very possible that these folks retain the advantages given for a long time.  That's why most devs generally refrain from allowing players to purchase such items in this manner.

    Including them also puts the devs in the precarious position of making the ownership resilient enough to seem like it wasn't a complete waste of money.  Contrary to popular mantra, most crowdfunding backers aren't throwing hundreds of thousands at your game out of goodwill alone.  They are enticed by what that amount buys them.  If it turns out it bought them two weeks, they're not gonna be happy.
    Please quantity "long time"? I am not trying to be difficult about it. What in your opinion is the maximum time frame that such an advantage can be allowed to last without disrupting the experience for new players to such an extent that the game fails?

    As for the rest, I mostly agree. There is definitely a risk of overstocking the pre-pay advantage. An expiry date would be a good idea but you make the argument that a "long term" guarantee is needed to make a purchase attractive enough in the first place. Catch-22 isn't it? 

    So where does that leave us? Given lack of alternative financing there is no other option. There is a simple choice; (1) use cash shop to build game or (2) no game. And for (1) to work, according to you, backers want a minimum period in which to enjoy their advantage. So following your logic SBS have no choice if they want to produce the game.

    Ideally we need a calculation/estimate as to what quantity/value is currently held by backers and what the daily churn post-launch will be. Given that all characters must maintain themselves 24/7 real time I suspect that churn will be quite high.
    MadFrenchieKyleran
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited December 2018
    There's no set expiration date for the items purchased.


    As much as so many like to point out that these items won't remain in the original owner's possession or will be destroyed relatively quickly, you have nothing that guarantees any of that happening.  Nothing at all.  Depending upon the details of the game mechanics, it could end up being very possible that these folks retain the advantages given for a long time.  That's why most devs generally refrain from allowing players to purchase such items in this manner.

    Including them also puts the devs in the precarious position of making the ownership resilient enough to seem like it wasn't a complete waste of money.  Contrary to popular mantra, most crowdfunding backers aren't throwing hundreds of thousands at your game out of goodwill alone.  They are enticed by what that amount buys them.  If it turns out it bought them two weeks, they're not gonna be happy.
    Please quantity "long time"? I am not trying to be difficult about it. What in your opinion is the maximum time frame that such an advantage can be allowed to last without disrupting the experience for new players to such an extent that the game fails?

    As for the rest, I mostly agree. There is definitely a risk of overstocking the pre-pay advantage. An expiry date would be a good idea but you make the argument that a "long term" guarantee is needed to make a purchase attractive enough in the first place. Catch-22 isn't it? 

    So where does that leave us? Given lack of alternative financing there is no other option. There is a simple choice; (1) use cash shop to build game or (2) no game. And for (1) to work, according to you, backers want a minimum period in which to enjoy their advantage. So following your logic SBS have no choice if they want to produce the game.

    Ideally we need a calculation/estimate as to what quantity/value is currently held by backers and what the daily churn post-launch will be. Given that all characters must maintain themselves 24/7 real time I suspect that churn will be quite high.
    Here's the thing: I don't assume the game needs to be built.  That's not a binary choice, you're creating one because you want this game to be made.  Since it's binary in your mind, there appears to be no room for the idea that not all ideas pitched turn into actual products.

    When you include that third option, you can then acknowledge that just because a practice works to garner funds, it doesn't necessarily mean it's an equitable and non-manipulative way to garner those funds.  The ends do not justify any and all means.

    If you went into this hoping it would get made and contributing your money, you had to (or should have) realize(d) that the game may not actually be attractive enough to bring to market.  Your (or anyone else) backing it does not make it a market imperative that this development is completed.  It certainly doesn't absolve SBS of any responsibility for the way they generate those funds from backers.  If you see pushback from folks about selling powerful titles and items, you should accept that the pushback is actually a direct result of extreme funding efforts by SBS and may, in and of itself, cripple long-term efforts to complete the game.
    GdemamiKyleran

    image
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited December 2018
    Damn I had a long post with links and all that I typed up on my phone and then hit back while proofreading and lost it. Need to leave for airport so you will just have to imagine it’s awesomene.

    In essence-  Mystic you better hope you are wrong that the game will fail unless 95% of the players are happy at launch.  Name one FFA PvP game with looting that launched in the last decade with numbers like that. Or 90.. 80... 50?

    This game is going to have a rough launch even by MMORPG standards.  It’s going to have bugs, imbalances, exploits... all the normal launch issues.   Not really much related to the OP but I think it’s an interesting path you have taken us down.  You can’t argue facts or logic with faith and that’s why we have a disconnect in my opinion. You can accept what Caspien says without questioning the how of it.  I’m an engineer by trade so it’s utterly against my nature to do that.

    Not proofreading so use your imagination for any strange words above.
    Actually, there are two facets of your comment that are completely wrong. As I tried to reexplain I didn't mean 95% of the players must be happy. I meant that backers are intended to only make up five percent of the servers population. Thus it is in SBS's best interest to make sure players after launch enjoys the game and receive the promised features.

    Secondly, I am not an idiot that spends my hard earned money on blind faith. You make assumptions that I just except Caspian's word without question, which couldn't be farther from the truth. Instead, I have examined and questioned all the intended features and can visualize how they are meant to work together. Unlike you, I don't simply disregard the features that work against my theory, such as launch players being able to acquire other player's possessions when making my analysis of the games strengths and weakness'

    Why we have a disconnect is really very simple. I want to see the game succeed, and you want to see it fail. Insulting my intelligence doesn't make this fact any less true. 

    Post edited by mystichaze on
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,963
    Damn I had a long post with links and all that I typed up on my phone and then hit back while proofreading and lost it. Need to leave for airport so you will just have to imagine it’s awesomene.

    In essence-  Mystic you better hope you are wrong that the game will fail unless 95% of the players are happy at launch.  Name one FFA PvP game with looting that launched in the last decade with numbers like that. Or 90.. 80... 50?

    This game is going to have a rough launch even by MMORPG standards.  It’s going to have bugs, imbalances, exploits... all the normal launch issues.   Not really much related to the OP but I think it’s an interesting path you have taken us down.  You can’t argue facts or logic with faith and that’s why we have a disconnect in my opinion. You can accept what Caspien says without questioning the how of it.  I’m an engineer by trade so it’s utterly against my nature to do that.

    Not proofreading so use your imagination for any strange words above.
    Actually, there are two facets of your comment that are completely wrong. As I tried to reexplain I didn't mean 95% of the players must be happy. I meant that backers are intended to only make up five percent of the servers population. Thus it is in SBS's best interest to make sure players after launch enjoys the game and receive the promised features.

    Secondly, I am not an idiot that spends my hard earned money on blind faith. You make assumptions that I just except Caspian's word without question, which couldn't be farther from the truth. Instead, I have examined and questioned all the intended features and can visualize how they are meant to work together. Unlike you, I don't simply disregard the features that work against my theory, such as launch players being able to acquire other player's possessions when making my analysis of the games strengths and weakness'

    Why we have a disconnect is really very simple. I want to see the game succeed, and you want to see it fail. Insulting my intelligence doesn't make this fact any less true. 

    Actually this was your exact quote:

    "The thing I noticed that you failed to recognize in my entire post is that without the 95% of happy players after launch, there is no game for anyone to play."

    Which somehow you now explain did not mean 95% of the players must be happy.

    Umm OK.  We'll just leave that there.

    For part 2 I never said you were an idiot, nor that believing on faith was less valid than relying on facts and logic.   I am truly sorry you feel that way.  It means that I will never be able to convince you of other than your most fervent belief in what Caspien has told you. 

    For the record, I do not simply "disregard the features that work against my theory".  I evaluate them against what the most likely outcome is and make a decision based on facts and experience not emotion, nor hope, nor any other dream.  Other than them originally hitting their KS goal.. what have I been wrong about?  I can list a crap load that I have been right about. I long list of items that Caspien said that turned out not to materialize...

    Do we want to talk about Gantt charts or Elyria Mud? Maybe Vox Elyria? How about SpatialOS? I even called him deciding to leave the Dukes and Counts open for sale before he announced it...

    Ignore the Harbinger at your own peril :)
      
    Gdemamimystichaze

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    There's no set expiration date for the items purchased.


    As much as so many like to point out that these items won't remain in the original owner's possession or will be destroyed relatively quickly, you have nothing that guarantees any of that happening.  Nothing at all.  Depending upon the details of the game mechanics, it could end up being very possible that these folks retain the advantages given for a long time.  That's why most devs generally refrain from allowing players to purchase such items in this manner.

    Including them also puts the devs in the precarious position of making the ownership resilient enough to seem like it wasn't a complete waste of money.  Contrary to popular mantra, most crowdfunding backers aren't throwing hundreds of thousands at your game out of goodwill alone.  They are enticed by what that amount buys them.  If it turns out it bought them two weeks, they're not gonna be happy.
    Please quantity "long time"? I am not trying to be difficult about it. What in your opinion is the maximum time frame that such an advantage can be allowed to last without disrupting the experience for new players to such an extent that the game fails?

    As for the rest, I mostly agree. There is definitely a risk of overstocking the pre-pay advantage. An expiry date would be a good idea but you make the argument that a "long term" guarantee is needed to make a purchase attractive enough in the first place. Catch-22 isn't it? 

    So where does that leave us? Given lack of alternative financing there is no other option. There is a simple choice; (1) use cash shop to build game or (2) no game. And for (1) to work, according to you, backers want a minimum period in which to enjoy their advantage. So following your logic SBS have no choice if they want to produce the game.

    Ideally we need a calculation/estimate as to what quantity/value is currently held by backers and what the daily churn post-launch will be. Given that all characters must maintain themselves 24/7 real time I suspect that churn will be quite high.
    As for backers being upset if they lose their stuff? They would need to suck it up because SBS has told all backers, right from day one that you can lose your shit to other players. 

     The fact that players can take your possessions after launch is a crucial part of their design, but it doesn't mean that it will happen quickly or in any predetermined amount of time, It is dependent on many factors. For example, It will take less time and strategizing to steal a backer's horse then it will to overthrow a Kingdom. The bigger the reward you seek, the harder it will be to acquire, but that is the game! To set your sights on what you want in the game, the try to obtain it with your wits and the tools we are given. 

    The part of the game I feel is so often overlooked, even by some in the CoE community, is the entire pretense of what CoE is doing is to create the 10 year Story, that is written by the players. The backers of SBS are only chapter one in the Story.  The starting conflict, collaboration, envy, greed, and ambition are being created by the inequality of the backers and launch players. The ability to acquire the possession of others allows for the games to begin. 

    This is how I perceive what SBS is trying to do, and I believe the mechanics they have shared with us support the kind of game they are trying to make. I am not naive to the fact that most of what we know is theory right now, and a lot can change before launch. But I don't believe SBS is going to totally change the core principles of the game. 

    Will they succeed? I don't think any of us know the answer to that right now. 

  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 726
    CoE already looks to have a ten year store-y.
    Slapshot1188
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,963


    Will they succeed? I don't think any of us know the answer to that right now. 

    Speak for yourself!

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    @Slapshot, you are also known to use your NDA knowledge when making your so-called predictions so people can take that for what it is worth. 

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,963
    edited December 2018
    @Slapshot, you are also known to use your NDA knowledge when making your so-called predictions so people can take that for what it is worth. 

    So Caspien told the NDA people that his Gannt Chart was bullshit?
    Or that Elyria Mud was a waste of time and resources?
    Or that Vox Elyria was a waste of time and resources?
    Or that He was going to waste a year's development on SpatialOS?
    That it would be going into 2020 and still no players?
    That he would extend the Duke and Count sales indefinitely?
    That he would outright sell Legendary items for cash? (predicted over a year ago)
    Which was based on NDA info?


    Not sure what NDA stuff I used to make any predictions... but perhaps you could clarify.

    Ignore the Harbinger at your own peril 

    OzmodanGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited December 2018
    @Slapshot here this might refresh your memory... 

    Quote "I expect them to soon announce that they are opening “VoxElyria” to the highest donors.  It will be under NDA and likely simply consist of moving your Creepers around in a Minecraft environment.  Probably a few dozen people.  This will be hailed as a great success and major milestone and be accompanied by a made up “Lore” event to support a limited time sale."

    Everything predicted in this comment was discussed in the NDA forums a couple days prior except for the lore event and limited time sale. You added that part in to make it sound better... 

    The same as the Noble packages returning to the store were discussed in NDA first. 

    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/7323233/#Comment_7323233
    Ozmodan
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,191
    @Slapshot here this might refresh your memory... 

    Quote "I expect them to soon announce that they are opening “VoxElyria” to the highest donors.  It will be under NDA and likely simply consist of moving your Creepers around in a Minecraft environment.  Probably a few dozen people.  This will be hailed as a great success and major milestone and be accompanied by a made up “Lore” event to support a limited time sale."

    Everything predicted in this comment was discussed in the NDA forums a couple days prior. Of course, those involved in those forums understand that not everything talked about there is going to come to pass. 

    The same as the Noble packages returning to the store were discussed in NDA first. 

    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/473350/2-year-anniversary#jweRVWh07GkIlHzc.99
    These *may* have been discussed in NDA forums, but it is clear to me that Noble packages are again on sale.  I'm definitely not NDA (nobody tells me anything :p ).

    So, how does the presence of a discussion on an NDA-protected forum change a prediction on an open forum?  It's a matter of precedence; which came first.  If you have date and time stamps of both @Slapshot1188's predictions and the NDA-protected discussions, you'd have that answer.  And there's no way you could show anyone who's not under the NDA the NDA information without breaking the NDA yourself.

    In this instance, I think @Slapshot1188 has earned enough credibility to trust him at his word.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,963
    Umm... you actually found a quote where I was wrong.  Obviously not using NDA info.  It was a guess based on time and proved to be wrong as no player ever got to join the mystical VoxElyria... did they :)
    mystichaze

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited December 2018
    @Mendal... Yes, you are aware now that noble packages have returned. However, this was discussed beforehand under NDA. Hence the source of said prediction. 

    @Slapshot, your bad I guess for not completely understanding those discussions under NDA are always subject to change. Hence the purpose of discussion.
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