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CoE selling Legendary items for straight cash also unretiring Duke and Count packages

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  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,483

    Nothing the guild leader has in-game, including his position, came from his personal resources outside the game.

    I think that's a pretty substantial difference and is also Iselin's point with the Monopoly example.
    the guild leader's status came from the wealth of time they had to play compared to others. I've never been a guild leader in games . . . because I don't have the time. 

    We'll agree to disagree, i believe in the time = money continuum, others do not. 
    Kyleran
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,660
    You skipped some very important parts of my post.  So here is one fundamental issue (as an example) of an inherent issue with there being nobles:

    I start as a crafter who works for weeks to save up enough money to purchase a small shop. I put all I have into it.  My King is the greatest and most selfless example of honest stewardship.  All is well.  Then one day, for no reason other than to be an asshat, the Dutchy next door decides  they like this one and they (using massive purchased advantages) come and destroy our town. Maybe they burn it down, maybe the Duke GhettoMaster simply decides that taxes are now 75% 

    Sure, I can move... to where?  And I will have lost all I own and worked for over the last few weeks.  Why?  Simply because the “Noble” next door spent 10 times the cash that mine did. I mean, we literally are allowing people to purchase multiple kingdoms and Dutchies and Counties.  There is no cap on the amount of EP you can buy with real cash to then purchase resources (in a game that says resources are 
     finite), ships, armor, weapons, technology upgrades, defenses, rare patterns,  heck they even let you spend more on the rare stuff all the way to “legendary” quality.   And don’t forget that anything bought in the shop before EP comes as a token to be used after launch...

    I guess the key is researching to find which Kingdom (and all nobles) have the deepest pockets and planning to join them.  What a fun concept...

    You talk about real history.  OK... how fun was it to historically have been a serf or non-noble? 

    I don't see how that is different from any other competitive sandbox where people invest a lot of time into building a settlement etc and then another guild sieges and takes it away.

    It won't be anything like being a historical peasant. If the game play mechanics are fun people will enjoy it. It is unrelated to whether there is someone else playing as a noble.

    I only mentioned real history to say it is thematically correct, nothing else. The more important part of my statement is that all competitive sandboxes work by guild leaders building consensus. There is no 1 tyrant ruling over all taking their stuff.

    Look, I am not a fan of cash-shop etc but if it is a choice between selling advantage (whether it lasts or not) and no game, I would take the former. And the actual amount of long term advantage to be had is highly speculative.

    The criticism should focus solely on cash shop goods then, not the actual purchasing of titles because simply holding a title at the start of the game won't do much. The real concern I see has to do with stockpiling goods/EP or however it works. Fair enough, but that is irrelevant to who is noble/peasant and this claim that you can't enjoy the game if you aren't noble.
    The difference is that only these Nobles (or other earlier supporters with deep pockets) have the ability to use the cash shop to buy these massive advantages and imbalances of power.   This is why I said that while I do not like cash shops, the current plan of closing the shop at launch is far, far worse because it locks in the power to these nobles. Sure, some random unaffiliated people can use their pitchforks and attack the Legendary Castle defended by Legendary defenses built with Legendary technology upgrades and fortified by crafters using Legendary resources... all bought with cash before the game starts.  But I think we all know how that ends.

    The only way Nobles are losing their shit is to other Nobles with deeper pockets.
    KyleranGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited December 2018

    Nothing the guild leader has in-game, including his position, came from his personal resources outside the game.

    I think that's a pretty substantial difference and is also Iselin's point with the Monopoly example.
    the guild leader's status came from the wealth of time they had to play compared to others. I've never been a guild leader in games . . . because I don't have the time. 

    We'll agree to disagree, i believe in the time = money continuum, others do not. 
    Fair enough.  I disagree with your assessment about time equaling money because I feel that old idiom wasn't intended to truly equate the two.  It was merely a warning against listlessness and wasted time.  Not an essential comparison.

    Time accrues equally for all.  Money does not.  Money can make you more money by virtue of existing; time does not make you more time.  The differences go on and on and are stark, imo.
    CryomatrixGdemamiLokero

    image
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,483

    Fair enough.  I disagree with your assessment about time equaling money because I feel that old idiom wasn't intended to truly equate the two.  It was merely a warning against listlessness and wasted time.  Not an essential comparison.

    Time accrues equally for all.  Money does not.  Money can make you more money by virtue of existing; time does not make you more time.  The differences go on and on and are stark, imo.
    Those are excellent points that you made. Thanks for that. You are right there are stark differences and i'm over simplifying to a certain degree. That is why it is nice to discuss things with people, you will learn things. 

    Have a good day mate. 
    MadFrenchieSlapshot1188Octagon7711mystichazeGdemami
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483

    Fair enough.  I disagree with your assessment about time equaling money because I feel that old idiom wasn't intended to truly equate the two.  It was merely a warning against listlessness and wasted time.  Not an essential comparison.

    Time accrues equally for all.  Money does not.  Money can make you more money by virtue of existing; time does not make you more time.  The differences go on and on and are stark, imo.
    Those are excellent points that you made. Thanks for that. You are right there are stark differences and i'm over simplifying to a certain degree. That is why it is nice to discuss things with people, you will learn things. 

    Have a good day mate. 
    Appreciate your being diplomatic in the discussion, even if we disagree. :+1:
    Slapshot1188Octagon7711GdemamiCryomatrix

    image
  • Nubz_UniteNubz_Unite Member UncommonPosts: 17
    @StaalBurgher In addition to what has been said above, what makes this different is the extent to which “nobles” can affect your gameplay.  They can literally make laws and determine punishments of other players.  You will be paying them taxes and pretty much exist at their pleasure. Then to top it off, even if you find a great noble to swear to,  you may still have your land and life taken because some other noble paid $60,000 (let’s call him GhettoMaster) decided to be a dick. At each opportunity (name selection, plague, map vote) these nobles (some) have proven to resort to trolling, griefing, and asshattery.  Closing the store at launch just solidifies the advantages they bought and makes it difficult for a non-noble to compete.
    I am not sure 1 player will have that much tyrannical control. There will be a great amount of consensus building going on between kings and their subjects, otherwise people will leave for better areas right? The need for consensus building by kings is well attested in real history and in virtually every other guild-based MMO.

    A little bit of tyranny will be needed to control asshattery. One of the reason players get away with griefing is because there are only very weak retributive actions other can take and it usually revolves around PvPing the transgressors... which is often exactly what they want in the first place!

    Another aspect of these competitive sandbox games that is highly damaging to player retention is that losing in PvP = more grind to replace gear. If the game play can revolve around simply managing OPCs/NPCs doing the actual grind you can remove this drawback. Although I suppose you run into technical worries again due to the need to script all this persistent in-game behaviour.

    Regardless, any such problems can be solved via game design. I cannot believe it is an unavoidable, inherent function of there being "nobles".
    You skipped some very important parts of my post.  So here is one fundamental issue (as an example) of an inherent issue with there being nobles:

    I start as a crafter who works for weeks to save up enough money to purchase a small shop. I put all I have into it.  My King is the greatest and most selfless example of honest stewardship.  All is well.  Then one day, for no reason other than to be an asshat, the Dutchy next door decides  they like this one and they (using massive purchased advantages) come and destroy our town. Maybe they burn it down, maybe the Duke GhettoMaster simply decides that taxes are now 75% 

    Sure, I can move... to where?  And I will have lost all I own and worked for over the last few weeks.  Why?  Simply because the “Noble” next door spent 10 times the cash that mine did. I mean, we literally are allowing people to purchase multiple kingdoms and Dutchies and Counties.  There is no cap on the amount of EP you can buy with real cash to then purchase resources (in a game that says resources are 
     finite), ships, armor, weapons, technology upgrades, defenses, rare patterns,  heck they even let you spend more on the rare stuff all the way to “legendary” quality.   And don’t forget that anything bought in the shop before EP comes as a token to be used after launch...

    I guess the key is researching to find which Kingdom (and all nobles) have the deepest pockets and planning to join them.  What a fun concept...

    You talk about real history.  OK... how fun was it to historically have been a serf or non-noble? 

    Burning down a town would take weeks, SBS has said that building a house or anything is a multi person and time consuming project, they also stated that destroying a building will be as hard or harder then building it. I don't know what the personal vendetta you have against GhettoMaster is since you seem to enjoy using him as a evil dick in every example possible but whatever. If he was to take over your duchy he would not be in control of the your towns tax level. He would decide how much each county within that duchy would pay him. Then they Count might set new taxes to the mayors who would then in turn have to talk to you and renegotiate the existing contract. That's assuming that at no level someone decides to fight back. Any resources that are not used or placed in the world by the end of Exposition are removed from the game. If you spawn in 20 pounds of gold and use one pound the other 19 pounds are gone. 
    mystichazeKyleran
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,660
    Caspien says a lot of things.  Many of those things turn out to be untrue or simply unworkable.  Some examples:

    Players would not have to keep funding game as he’d have a publisher
    Game would release in 2017
    ElyriaMud would save time and money
    VoxElyria would save time and money
    SpatialOS was the foundation that would enable all his promises

    I seriously doubt that it will take a week of real time to destroy something. But even if it did that’s not really related to the fact that it’s getting torn down because some asshat  noble spent triple what my noble did,  and is sitting there firing his Legendary siege weapons on my stuff and now I’ve lost everything I spent weeks building.  Not because I was outplayed, but simply because that Noble spent $60k in the cash shop that now I can’t even make ch because it’s closed.

    And sure you have to use EP resources in the 3 month head start.  That’s why you used them all to make your army the best outfitted, your keep the best defended, your technology the most advanced and your crafters well developed.  But after the no wipe head start you can still cash in any of the other store bought items you bought and heck maybe even sell them for in game cash or resources.

    Closing the cash shop at launch just locks in the advantages that the Nobles bought.  Only othe Nobles will be able to take them away.  
    MendelGdemamiKyleranVynt

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,017
    edited December 2018
    @StaalBurgher In addition to what has been said above, what makes this different is the extent to which “nobles” can affect your gameplay.  They can literally make laws and determine punishments of other players.  You will be paying them taxes and pretty much exist at their pleasure. Then to top it off, even if you find a great noble to swear to,  you may still have your land and life taken because some other noble paid $60,000 (let’s call him GhettoMaster) decided to be a dick. At each opportunity (name selection, plague, map vote) these nobles (some) have proven to resort to trolling, griefing, and asshattery.  Closing the store at launch just solidifies the advantages they bought and makes it difficult for a non-noble to compete.
    I am not sure 1 player will have that much tyrannical control. There will be a great amount of consensus building going on between kings and their subjects, otherwise people will leave for better areas right? The need for consensus building by kings is well attested in real history and in virtually every other guild-based MMO.

    A little bit of tyranny will be needed to control asshattery. One of the reason players get away with griefing is because there are only very weak retributive actions other can take and it usually revolves around PvPing the transgressors... which is often exactly what they want in the first place!

    Another aspect of these competitive sandbox games that is highly damaging to player retention is that losing in PvP = more grind to replace gear. If the game play can revolve around simply managing OPCs/NPCs doing the actual grind you can remove this drawback. Although I suppose you run into technical worries again due to the need to script all this persistent in-game behaviour.

    Regardless, any such problems can be solved via game design. I cannot believe it is an unavoidable, inherent function of there being "nobles".
    You skipped some very important parts of my post.  So here is one fundamental issue (as an example) of an inherent issue with there being nobles:

    I start as a crafter who works for weeks to save up enough money to purchase a small shop. I put all I have into it.  My King is the greatest and most selfless example of honest stewardship.  All is well.  Then one day, for no reason other than to be an asshat, the Dutchy next door decides  they like this one and they (using massive purchased advantages) come and destroy our town. Maybe they burn it down, maybe the Duke GhettoMaster simply decides that taxes are now 75% 

    Sure, I can move... to where?  And I will have lost all I own and worked for over the last few weeks.  Why?  Simply because the “Noble” next door spent 10 times the cash that mine did. I mean, we literally are allowing people to purchase multiple kingdoms and Dutchies and Counties.  There is no cap on the amount of EP you can buy with real cash to then purchase resources (in a game that says resources are 
     finite), ships, armor, weapons, technology upgrades, defenses, rare patterns,  heck they even let you spend more on the rare stuff all the way to “legendary” quality.   And don’t forget that anything bought in the shop before EP comes as a token to be used after launch...

    I guess the key is researching to find which Kingdom (and all nobles) have the deepest pockets and planning to join them.  What a fun concept...

    You talk about real history.  OK... how fun was it to historically have been a serf or non-noble? 

    Burning down a town would take weeks, SBS has said that building a house or anything is a multi person and time consuming project, they also stated that destroying a building will be as hard or harder then building it. I don't know what the personal vendetta you have against GhettoMaster is since you seem to enjoy using him as a evil dick in every example possible but whatever. If he was to take over your duchy he would not be in control of the your towns tax level. He would decide how much each county within that duchy would pay him. Then they Count might set new taxes to the mayors who would then in turn have to talk to you and renegotiate the existing contract. That's assuming that at no level someone decides to fight back. Any resources that are not used or placed in the world by the end of Exposition are removed from the game. If you spawn in 20 pounds of gold and use one pound the other 19 pounds are gone. 
    I know SBS and Caspien have mentioned things about cooperative, multi-person building, but does anyone have any proof that SBS is a) still on that course, b) making any progress in developing the interfaces for this, or c) showing this mechanism in operation?  Multi-person tasks was the promise that peaked my interest about this game.  So far, though, it seems to be nothing but more empty promises without any hope of being coded.

    So, what other than words on a website convinces you that building and destroying buildings will be difficult?



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Mendel said:
    @StaalBurgher In addition to what has been said above, what makes this different is the extent to which “nobles” can affect your gameplay.  They can literally make laws and determine punishments of other players.  You will be paying them taxes and pretty much exist at their pleasure. Then to top it off, even if you find a great noble to swear to,  you may still have your land and life taken because some other noble paid $60,000 (let’s call him GhettoMaster) decided to be a dick. At each opportunity (name selection, plague, map vote) these nobles (some) have proven to resort to trolling, griefing, and asshattery.  Closing the store at launch just solidifies the advantages they bought and makes it difficult for a non-noble to compete.
    I am not sure 1 player will have that much tyrannical control. There will be a great amount of consensus building going on between kings and their subjects, otherwise people will leave for better areas right? The need for consensus building by kings is well attested in real history and in virtually every other guild-based MMO.

    A little bit of tyranny will be needed to control asshattery. One of the reason players get away with griefing is because there are only very weak retributive actions other can take and it usually revolves around PvPing the transgressors... which is often exactly what they want in the first place!

    Another aspect of these competitive sandbox games that is highly damaging to player retention is that losing in PvP = more grind to replace gear. If the game play can revolve around simply managing OPCs/NPCs doing the actual grind you can remove this drawback. Although I suppose you run into technical worries again due to the need to script all this persistent in-game behaviour.

    Regardless, any such problems can be solved via game design. I cannot believe it is an unavoidable, inherent function of there being "nobles".
    You skipped some very important parts of my post.  So here is one fundamental issue (as an example) of an inherent issue with there being nobles:

    I start as a crafter who works for weeks to save up enough money to purchase a small shop. I put all I have into it.  My King is the greatest and most selfless example of honest stewardship.  All is well.  Then one day, for no reason other than to be an asshat, the Dutchy next door decides  they like this one and they (using massive purchased advantages) come and destroy our town. Maybe they burn it down, maybe the Duke GhettoMaster simply decides that taxes are now 75% 

    Sure, I can move... to where?  And I will have lost all I own and worked for over the last few weeks.  Why?  Simply because the “Noble” next door spent 10 times the cash that mine did. I mean, we literally are allowing people to purchase multiple kingdoms and Dutchies and Counties.  There is no cap on the amount of EP you can buy with real cash to then purchase resources (in a game that says resources are 
     finite), ships, armor, weapons, technology upgrades, defenses, rare patterns,  heck they even let you spend more on the rare stuff all the way to “legendary” quality.   And don’t forget that anything bought in the shop before EP comes as a token to be used after launch...

    I guess the key is researching to find which Kingdom (and all nobles) have the deepest pockets and planning to join them.  What a fun concept...

    You talk about real history.  OK... how fun was it to historically have been a serf or non-noble? 

    Burning down a town would take weeks, SBS has said that building a house or anything is a multi person and time consuming project, they also stated that destroying a building will be as hard or harder then building it. I don't know what the personal vendetta you have against GhettoMaster is since you seem to enjoy using him as a evil dick in every example possible but whatever. If he was to take over your duchy he would not be in control of the your towns tax level. He would decide how much each county within that duchy would pay him. Then they Count might set new taxes to the mayors who would then in turn have to talk to you and renegotiate the existing contract. That's assuming that at no level someone decides to fight back. Any resources that are not used or placed in the world by the end of Exposition are removed from the game. If you spawn in 20 pounds of gold and use one pound the other 19 pounds are gone. 
    I know SBS and Caspien have mentioned things about cooperative, multi-person building, but does anyone have any proof that SBS is a) still on that course, b) making any progress in developing the interfaces for this, or c) showing this mechanism in operation?  Multi-person tasks was the promise that peaked my interest about this game.  So far, though, it seems to be nothing but more empty promises without any hope of being coded.

    So, what other than words on a website convinces you that building and destroying buildings will be difficult?



    Most realistically, I would expect multi-person crafting to mean that multiple players can add mats or process mats for the same building plot.  As in, anyone can contribute by walking up to the plot and adding mats or processing existing mats towards the final product.

    The feature I feel like you're referencing (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming you meant like cooperative building that required players to interact with each other and the plot to build) seems far-fetched, not by attempt, but by workability.  Implementing something that deep without mandating it for all players seems like a lot of work for something most players won't bother with except for the odd, convenient "while you're here..." situations, or specific situations where guildmates contribute time as a courtesy.

    image
  • Nubz_UniteNubz_Unite Member UncommonPosts: 17
    edited December 2018
    Mendel said:
    I know SBS and Caspien have mentioned things about cooperative, multi-person building, but does anyone have any proof that SBS is a) still on that course, b) making any progress in developing the interfaces for this, or c) showing this mechanism in operation?  Multi-person tasks was the promise that peaked my interest about this game.  So far, though, it seems to be nothing but more empty promises without any hope of being coded.

    So, what other than words on a website convinces you that building and destroying buildings will be difficult?



    I don't have anything more, but I think using the only information provided as a way to back up your point is much more useful then stating the game will work a certain way because you don't believe in the mechanics being presented. I think we should be building your points around what information a game studio has provided not what we think the game studio is lying about. I could be wrong and you could be right but until then Multi-Person building is what SBS is planning to do.

    Edit: The only other information remotely related would be a DJ that talked about the implementation of the "what you see if what you get" inventory system. Frenchie is right the Joint construction effort has more to do with acquisition of resources as multiple will be needed to help carry felled trees and minerals from mines or at least that's what has been stated by SBS.

    @Slapshot1188 Your generalizing what will be available to purchase and at what level. SBS has stated that not every object can you acquire at a legendary quality and even if you do get a Legendary object or a magical object. The properties of said object are not known to you immediately and it could take any amount of time for you to figure out what properties said object has. You make a lot of good points and I like reading your take on CoE but it frustrates me when I know you have more information yet still choose to cherry pick to your liking. Allowing a cash shop to exist past launch goes against the core mechanics of the game. The game is suppose to have a closed economy selling anything after the launch would go against that and would anger a lot more people then it would please.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,660
    Mendel said:
    I know SBS and Caspien have mentioned things about cooperative, multi-person building, but does anyone have any proof that SBS is a) still on that course, b) making any progress in developing the interfaces for this, or c) showing this mechanism in operation?  Multi-person tasks was the promise that peaked my interest about this game.  So far, though, it seems to be nothing but more empty promises without any hope of being coded.

    So, what other than words on a website convinces you that building and destroying buildings will be difficult?



    I don't have anything more, but I think using the only information provided as a way to back up your point is much more useful then stating the game will work a certain way because you don't believe in the mechanics being presented. I think we should be building your points around what information a game studio has provided not what we think the game studio is lying about. I could be wrong and you could be right but until then Multi-Person building is what SBS is planning to do.

    Edit: The only other information remotely related would be a DJ that talked about the implementation of the "what you see if what you get" inventory system. Frenchie is right the Joint construction effort has more to do with acquisition of resources as multiple will be needed to help carry felled trees and minerals from mines or at least that's what has been stated by SBS.

    @Slapshot1188 Your generalizing what will be available to purchase and at what level. SBS has stated that not every object can you acquire at a legendary quality and even if you do get a Legendary object or a magical object. The properties of said object are not known to you immediately and it could take any amount of time for you to figure out what properties said object has. You make a lot of good points and I like reading your take on CoE but it frustrates me when I know you have more information yet still choose to cherry pick to your liking. Allowing a cash shop to exist past launch goes against the core mechanics of the game. The game is suppose to have a closed economy selling anything after the launch would go against that and would anger a lot more people then it would please.
    A closed economy went out the window when they allowed people to buy unlimited cash shop items and use the tokens to redeem them after launch. After launch, not Early 3 month no wipe head start. There is no difference between selling them after launch and allowing tokens to be redeemed after launch.  It’s just another way to lock in the advantages for the nobles or deep pocket early whales.
    GdemamiAnOldFart

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Nubz_UniteNubz_Unite Member UncommonPosts: 17
    Mendel said:
    I know SBS and Caspien have mentioned things about cooperative, multi-person building, but does anyone have any proof that SBS is a) still on that course, b) making any progress in developing the interfaces for this, or c) showing this mechanism in operation?  Multi-person tasks was the promise that peaked my interest about this game.  So far, though, it seems to be nothing but more empty promises without any hope of being coded.

    So, what other than words on a website convinces you that building and destroying buildings will be difficult?



    I don't have anything more, but I think using the only information provided as a way to back up your point is much more useful then stating the game will work a certain way because you don't believe in the mechanics being presented. I think we should be building your points around what information a game studio has provided not what we think the game studio is lying about. I could be wrong and you could be right but until then Multi-Person building is what SBS is planning to do.

    Edit: The only other information remotely related would be a DJ that talked about the implementation of the "what you see if what you get" inventory system. Frenchie is right the Joint construction effort has more to do with acquisition of resources as multiple will be needed to help carry felled trees and minerals from mines or at least that's what has been stated by SBS.

    @Slapshot1188 Your generalizing what will be available to purchase and at what level. SBS has stated that not every object can you acquire at a legendary quality and even if you do get a Legendary object or a magical object. The properties of said object are not known to you immediately and it could take any amount of time for you to figure out what properties said object has. You make a lot of good points and I like reading your take on CoE but it frustrates me when I know you have more information yet still choose to cherry pick to your liking. Allowing a cash shop to exist past launch goes against the core mechanics of the game. The game is suppose to have a closed economy selling anything after the launch would go against that and would anger a lot more people then it would please.
    A closed economy went out the window when they allowed people to buy unlimited cash shop items and use the tokens to redeem them after launch. After launch, not Early 3 month no wipe head start. There is no difference between selling them after launch and allowing tokens to be redeemed after launch.  It’s just another way to lock in the advantages for the nobles or deep pocket early whales.
    Mendel said:
    I know SBS and Caspien have mentioned things about cooperative, multi-person building, but does anyone have any proof that SBS is a) still on that course, b) making any progress in developing the interfaces for this, or c) showing this mechanism in operation?  Multi-person tasks was the promise that peaked my interest about this game.  So far, though, it seems to be nothing but more empty promises without any hope of being coded.

    So, what other than words on a website convinces you that building and destroying buildings will be difficult?



    I don't have anything more, but I think using the only information provided as a way to back up your point is much more useful then stating the game will work a certain way because you don't believe in the mechanics being presented. I think we should be building your points around what information a game studio has provided not what we think the game studio is lying about. I could be wrong and you could be right but until then Multi-Person building is what SBS is planning to do.

    Edit: The only other information remotely related would be a DJ that talked about the implementation of the "what you see if what you get" inventory system. Frenchie is right the Joint construction effort has more to do with acquisition of resources as multiple will be needed to help carry felled trees and minerals from mines or at least that's what has been stated by SBS.

    @Slapshot1188 Your generalizing what will be available to purchase and at what level. SBS has stated that not every object can you acquire at a legendary quality and even if you do get a Legendary object or a magical object. The properties of said object are not known to you immediately and it could take any amount of time for you to figure out what properties said object has. You make a lot of good points and I like reading your take on CoE but it frustrates me when I know you have more information yet still choose to cherry pick to your liking. Allowing a cash shop to exist past launch goes against the core mechanics of the game. The game is suppose to have a closed economy selling anything after the launch would go against that and would anger a lot more people then it would please.
    A closed economy went out the window when they allowed people to buy unlimited cash shop items and use the tokens to redeem them after launch. After launch, not Early 3 month no wipe head start. There is no difference between selling them after launch and allowing tokens to be redeemed after launch.  It’s just another way to lock in the advantages for the nobles or deep pocket early whales.
    Except for the fact that the tokens only work if the resources are avaliable. If you have 10 tokens for chickens and nobody has chickens in the settlement you are in. You are gonna have to go find someone to trade the tokens for chickens. They don't just spawn in. Still a closed economy. The reason tokens exist is afaik because SBS didn't think anyone who didn't have access to exposition would buy items that they expected to be redeemed in exposition. I guess to them the tokens seemed like an easier solution then mass refunds.
  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher Member UncommonPosts: 255
    Slapshot1188 said:

    The difference is that only these Nobles (or other earlier supporters with deep pockets) have the ability to use the cash shop to buy these massive advantages and imbalances of power.   This is why I said that while I do not like cash shops, the current plan of closing the shop at launch is far, far worse because it locks in the power to these nobles. Sure, some random unaffiliated people can use their pitchforks and attack the Legendary Castle defended by Legendary defenses built with Legendary technology upgrades and fortified by crafters using Legendary resources... all bought with cash before the game starts.  But I think we all know how that ends.

    The only way Nobles are losing their shit is to other Nobles with deeper pockets.
    I see the argument for just leaving the cash shop open IF pre-launch purchases give a permanent advantage. Not sure I agree that it does. I am not on here as often as you guys and don't read all the discussion. Do you mind recapping why the advantage of pre-launch purchases won't eventually run out? Keeping the cash shop open will guarantee P2W will be forever.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited December 2018
    Slapshot1188 said:

    The difference is that only these Nobles (or other earlier supporters with deep pockets) have the ability to use the cash shop to buy these massive advantages and imbalances of power.   This is why I said that while I do not like cash shops, the current plan of closing the shop at launch is far, far worse because it locks in the power to these nobles. Sure, some random unaffiliated people can use their pitchforks and attack the Legendary Castle defended by Legendary defenses built with Legendary technology upgrades and fortified by crafters using Legendary resources... all bought with cash before the game starts.  But I think we all know how that ends.

    The only way Nobles are losing their shit is to other Nobles with deeper pockets.
    I see the argument for just leaving the cash shop open IF pre-launch purchases give a permanent advantage. Not sure I agree that it does. I am not on here as often as you guys and don't read all the discussion. Do you mind recapping why the advantage of pre-launch purchases won't eventually run out? Keeping the cash shop open will guarantee P2W will be forever.
    There's no set expiration date for the items purchased.


    As much as so many like to point out that these items won't remain in the original owner's possession or will be destroyed relatively quickly, you have nothing that guarantees any of that happening.  Nothing at all.  Depending upon the details of the game mechanics, it could end up being very possible that these folks retain the advantages given for a long time.  That's why most devs generally refrain from allowing players to purchase such items in this manner.

    Including them also puts the devs in the precarious position of making the ownership resilient enough to seem like it wasn't a complete waste of money.  Contrary to popular mantra, most crowdfunding backers aren't throwing hundreds of thousands at your game out of goodwill alone.  They are enticed by what that amount buys them.  If it turns out it bought them two weeks, they're not gonna be happy.
    KyleranSlapshot1188Gdemami

    image
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,660
    edited December 2018
    Mendel said:
    I know SBS and Caspien have mentioned things about cooperative, multi-person building, but does anyone have any proof that SBS is a) still on that course, b) making any progress in developing the interfaces for this, or c) showing this mechanism in operation?  Multi-person tasks was the promise that peaked my interest about this game.  So far, though, it seems to be nothing but more empty promises without any hope of being coded.

    So, what other than words on a website convinces you that building and destroying buildings will be difficult?



    I don't have anything more, but I think using the only information provided as a way to back up your point is much more useful then stating the game will work a certain way because you don't believe in the mechanics being presented. I think we should be building your points around what information a game studio has provided not what we think the game studio is lying about. I could be wrong and you could be right but until then Multi-Person building is what SBS is planning to do.

    Edit: The only other information remotely related would be a DJ that talked about the implementation of the "what you see if what you get" inventory system. Frenchie is right the Joint construction effort has more to do with acquisition of resources as multiple will be needed to help carry felled trees and minerals from mines or at least that's what has been stated by SBS.

    @Slapshot1188 Your generalizing what will be available to purchase and at what level. SBS has stated that not every object can you acquire at a legendary quality and even if you do get a Legendary object or a magical object. The properties of said object are not known to you immediately and it could take any amount of time for you to figure out what properties said object has. You make a lot of good points and I like reading your take on CoE but it frustrates me when I know you have more information yet still choose to cherry pick to your liking. Allowing a cash shop to exist past launch goes against the core mechanics of the game. The game is suppose to have a closed economy selling anything after the launch would go against that and would anger a lot more people then it would please.
    A closed economy went out the window when they allowed people to buy unlimited cash shop items and use the tokens to redeem them after launch. After launch, not Early 3 month no wipe head start. There is no difference between selling them after launch and allowing tokens to be redeemed after launch.  It’s just another way to lock in the advantages for the nobles or deep pocket early whales.
    Mendel said:
    I know SBS and Caspien have mentioned things about cooperative, multi-person building, but does anyone have any proof that SBS is a) still on that course, b) making any progress in developing the interfaces for this, or c) showing this mechanism in operation?  Multi-person tasks was the promise that peaked my interest about this game.  So far, though, it seems to be nothing but more empty promises without any hope of being coded.

    So, what other than words on a website convinces you that building and destroying buildings will be difficult?



    I don't have anything more, but I think using the only information provided as a way to back up your point is much more useful then stating the game will work a certain way because you don't believe in the mechanics being presented. I think we should be building your points around what information a game studio has provided not what we think the game studio is lying about. I could be wrong and you could be right but until then Multi-Person building is what SBS is planning to do.

    Edit: The only other information remotely related would be a DJ that talked about the implementation of the "what you see if what you get" inventory system. Frenchie is right the Joint construction effort has more to do with acquisition of resources as multiple will be needed to help carry felled trees and minerals from mines or at least that's what has been stated by SBS.

    @Slapshot1188 Your generalizing what will be available to purchase and at what level. SBS has stated that not every object can you acquire at a legendary quality and even if you do get a Legendary object or a magical object. The properties of said object are not known to you immediately and it could take any amount of time for you to figure out what properties said object has. You make a lot of good points and I like reading your take on CoE but it frustrates me when I know you have more information yet still choose to cherry pick to your liking. Allowing a cash shop to exist past launch goes against the core mechanics of the game. The game is suppose to have a closed economy selling anything after the launch would go against that and would anger a lot more people then it would please.
    A closed economy went out the window when they allowed people to buy unlimited cash shop items and use the tokens to redeem them after launch. After launch, not Early 3 month no wipe head start. There is no difference between selling them after launch and allowing tokens to be redeemed after launch.  It’s just another way to lock in the advantages for the nobles or deep pocket early whales.
    Except for the fact that the tokens only work if the resources are avaliable. If you have 10 tokens for chickens and nobody has chickens in the settlement you are in. You are gonna have to go find someone to trade the tokens for chickens. They don't just spawn in. Still a closed economy. The reason tokens exist is afaik because SBS didn't think anyone who didn't have access to exposition would buy items that they expected to be redeemed in exposition. I guess to them the tokens seemed like an easier solution then mass refunds.
    It can’t be a closed economy if the user is given “gift cards” (their words) to redeem.  Say it’s for a ship. Say I’m a shipbuilder.  I cash in a token to myself (or an alt/friend) and I have a ship PLUS either the resources or money for the ship (they are unclear on that).  I can then sell the ship to someone else and get paid twice for the same ship.  There was a great discussion on this earlier in the year when they announced this change.

    How do they plan on handling things like the Raider package that comes with a boat and I think 10 sets of armor and 10 weapons?  No single vendor will have that.  Also, how can the token give set cash to a vendor who should be able to set his own prices?  If I am selling my ships for 5000 coins but some guy gives me the token which just gives me 1000 I would be pissed.  
    KyleranMadFrenchieGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

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  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,704
    I think we should be building your points around what information a game studio has provided not what we think the game studio is lying about. 
    Are you implying that in the history of SBS there was a time when Caspian spoke the truth even once?
    Kyleran
    Harbinger of Fools
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,426
    Dakeru said:
    I think we should be building your points around what information a game studio has provided not what we think the game studio is lying about. 
    Are you implying that in the history of SBS there was a time when Caspian spoke the truth even once?
    "Just remember -- It's not a lie if you believe it."
    Slapshot1188
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited December 2018
    Since apparently, we are now assuming that all the game mechanics are a lie. Even though the ability to take possession of other peoples property is a significant part of what SBS is trying to do in creating this MEOW. 


    Things we know...

    -In the Free Kingdom event, a chance between a Kingdom, 6 Dutchies, and 12 Counties have already been given away to players that might not have been able to acquire one otherwise. 

    -Hundreds of Elyria packages were given away during the Searing Plague Event. In addition to all those that played and became tier two received a Plagueborn title making them immune to the Plague in-game.

    - We can assume by SBS's track record, there will be more giveaways in the up and coming events.

    - Not every Dutchy and County position has been purchased or given away in an event, wherein leaving those domains to be run by NPCs and available for ambitious players to acquire... 

    -We can also assume that not every King, Duke or Count is going to remain to play the game for the 10 years duration, for whatever reasons. Which in turn would make their regions assumable for other players to concur after launch.

    So even by disregarding intended game mechanics, I can say with certainty that not every Noble is a going to be a Whale through-out the ten year Story.

    By simply involving yourself in the community you too might get something of worth, without spending. Right Slapshot? Wasn't it two Elyrian Packages you acquired for free? 



    Post edited by mystichaze on
    StaalBurgher
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Since apparently, we are now assuming that all the game mechanics are a lie. Even though the ability to take possession of other peoples property is a significant part of what SBS is trying to do in creating this MEOW. 

    Life is a lie!

    image
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,660
    -In the Free Kingdom event, a chance between a Kingdom, 6 Dutchies, and 12 Counties have already been given away to players that might not have been able to acquire one otherwise. 
    Chance... yes buy buying tickets at $10 a pop which raised a lot more than the $10k King slot that no Whale bought.

    -Hundreds of Elyria packages were given away during the Searing Plague Event. In addition to all those that played and became tier two received a Plagueborn title making them immune to the Plague in-game.
    Yup. Need more peasants!   Most of those accounts I suspect were just free alts.

    - We can assume by SBS's track record, there will be more giveaways in the up and copurchased spots too!

    - Not every Dutchy and County position has been purchased or given away in an event, wherein leaving those domains to be run by NPCs and available for ambitious players to acquire... 
    Uh huh

    -We can also assume that not every King, Duke or Count is going to remain to play the game for the 10 years duration, for whatever reasons. Which in turn would make their regions assumable for other players to concur after launch.
    Yup.  Who’s more likely to get those?  The other nobles or peasant 4326?

    So even by disregarding intended game mechanics, I can say with certainty that not every Noble is a going to be a Whale through-out the ten year Story. 
    Wow... maybe because nobody is going to play the game for 10 years? 

    By simply involving yourself in the community you too might get something of worth, without spending. Right Slapshot? Wasn't it two Elyrian Packages you acquired for free? 
    I did get 2 accounts from Links of Elyria as I previously posted.  Has zero to do with the discussion though....

    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,660
    Maybe you hit on a good idea. Since they will massively struggle to get their hundreds of thousands of peasants the game needs... what if they were free? Pay for a spark to reincarnate but the basic account is free. Kind of like the normal F2P... this way the nobles have peasants to rule?
    KyleranGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited December 2018
    -As we all know SBS is crowdfunded, thus the $10 token system, which not only acted as a vote but also provided EP for the purchaser. Those that played had to prove themselves as leaders in order to be given tokens by other players. So, the winning individuals won with community involvement, not their own cash. In addition, I think all the Counties were acquired with the low cost of 5 tokens each. Valued at $50. So once again the players that won were not whales. 

    -Regardless if they are alts or remain, peasants, there is still a large number of new players that just wanted to try the game and were given the opportunity to try it free of charge... No matter how the mechanics of the event were perceived,  it did spark a lot of community collaboration in finding the cure.

    -If you buy an Elyrian package, or win one and remain a peasant through-out the game, then you are definitely not playing the game right. 

    -Your acquiring two Elyrian packages does have something to do with the conversation. It is proof that by involving yourself in the community events, which you seem to do on a regular basis, you can acquire things without spending. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,773
    -As we all know SBS is crowdfunded, thus the $10 token system, which not only acted as a vote but also provided EP for the purchaser. Those that played had to prove themselves as leaders in order to be given tokens by other players. So, the winning individuals won with community involvement, not their own cash. In addition, I think all the Counties were acquired with the low cost of 5 tokens. So once again the players that won were not whales. 

    -Regardless if they are alts or remain, peasants, there is still a large number of new players that just wanted to try the game and were given the opportunity to try it free of charge... No matter how the mechanics of the event were perceived,  it did spark a lot of community collaboration.

    -If you buy an Elyrian package, or win one and remain a peasant through-out the game, then you are definitely not playing the game right. 

    -Your acquiring two Elyrian packages does have something to do with the conversation. It is proof that by involving yourself in the community events, which you seem to do on a regular basis, you can acquire things without spending. 
    "Prove themselves as leaders".... 

    Hilarious.

    I so hope this game eventually makes it to launch, so many possibilities.  


    Slapshot1188

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    I too hope it launches, there is always the risk that it won't. Till it does!

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,008
    Imo this is a very obvious business to figure out.

    They had hoped wit their sales pitch they would get investors and might very well already have some,which btw undermines crowd funder's.
    They did not get the response in investors over time and have had to change the entire scope of the operation.
    My stance,you CANNOT build a quality game like this,no way no how.All they will do is try and keep paying their wages,collecting their salaries and hopefully one day release a game.As a non invested consumer,i already gave up on this game.
    There is ONLY one game that mildly has a chance in the next couple years and that is because it is being built by two large pocket books and using an already successful template.

    Even if a game has a remote chance there are underlying factors that brings a game right back down,cash shops,unequal treatment of players,p2w,and goofy ideas like seems every game dev now wants their game to play like a ARPG or moba,nothing remotely plausible looking,just nonsense.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

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