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The problem with PC gaming isn't the games, it's the people

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  • Gamer54321Gamer54321 Member UncommonPosts: 452
    Problems are problems, not things. Things are never problems themselves, neither people or games.

    Moving on..

    I've always had this idea that games can take advantage of basically free advertisement. Every year, there is x amount of people getting into computer games, and if they are more like a blank slate, they will probably end up playing whatever if they are given a little push. So.. I imagine this terrible world with hyped game, and games sell themselves to a horde of gamers that are probably naive, guillible and don't have strong opinions on gaming, being all too happy playing games.

    I remember playing 'Battlefield 3' and I had fun, but then I played DayZ and Arma, and Battlefield seemed silly all of a sudden. Disclaimer, I am NOT suggesting that Arma is a good game, but it offer a different type of gameplay that is more epic, with a larger game world.

    I regret not playing Arma before I was exposed to the hype around the release of Elder Scrolls Skyrim. I naively thought that game number 5 (Skyrim) would be a lot better than number 4 (Oblivion), and I was terribly wrong. Never will I play another Bethesda game.

    I am of the belief that if you are a game dev and end up making a game that is good, people will probably take notice and make it popular.

    Seems to me, that game devs don't want to make good games, but instead want to make popular games, which might be entirely differnt from being good.

    I will resist the hype of Cyberpunk 2077 and Star Citizen isn't looking good imo.

    'Red Dead Redemption 2' looks interesting despite being a console game, but I strongly suspect that the game is not offering the kind of gaming experience that I crave, and is perhaps more like a theme park ride.

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,667
    Vhayne said:
    free2play said:
    The thing with using streaming as your game health benchmark is, it isn't even balanced in the games.

    Top 3 games will consume 90% of the viewers but go in to the said game category and it is just as top heavy. 200 people can be streaming PubG but 99% of the viewers are on 3 streamers. The other 197 streamers have 1 or 2 viewers.

    The bigger thing is, those streamers could be playing (and have) Goat Simulator and the views follow them. In short, the games are not the draw. The streamers are.

    Even in steam, the games that are high player active are lobby games and the games don't distinguish how they got logged in to the lobby or if they are active in the game. If 90% of your time in an MMO was spent LFG you we would call that game garbage but that is precisely what Lobby games are. Maybe that's why we are at an MMO web site and play MMOs.

    If your trying to get a feel for what game you should stream, play whatever. If you have a gimmick that gets you millions of viewers they will watch you play anything as long as you play the game and don't let it play you. Something good streamers have mastered.
    …..aaaaaannnnnddd…..those people that follow those streamers, to watch anything they play,  just because they are popular, are...….sheep.  
    Do you like something? Do other people like the same thing? Awesome, now you’re a sheep too...

    Your simplification is quite frankly ridiculous and insulting to boot. Everybody is a wolf and a sheep, it depends on the situation, your labels are meaningless.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,247
    Vrika said:
    Vhayne said:

    Maybe I'm old.  Maybe I just don't get it.  Or maybe, this whole thing is just weird AF.
    @Vhayne

    Maybe you should start with something more basic, like: People are free.

    You don't need to understand why people choose some way to spend their free time. You only need to understand that they are free to do so, but you are not free to call groups who choose differently a problem while you're in public.
    I am NOT free, but I am cheap! $5/hour :lol:
    Jean-Luc_PicardPhry

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • VhayneVhayne Member UncommonPosts: 632
    lahnmir said:
    Vhayne said:


    Do you like something? Do other people like the same thing? Awesome, now you’re a sheep too...

    Your simplification is quite frankly ridiculous and insulting to boot. Everybody is a wolf and a sheep, it depends on the situation, your labels are meaningless.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Nah, I don't see how your description works.  For example, if I like a band's music.  And other people like that band's music.  That doesn't make me a sheep, or them.  The band produces a product.  I/we like that product, so we purchase that product.  It is a product.  The band made that product.  We like it, we purchase it.  That is normal marketing.

    Paying a streamer to get yourself noticed, making comments on the ass-kisser ticker tape of a chat window, just to get yourself noticed, and mostly, watching whatever the streamer does just because he is popular and everyone else is going to be there too....that makes them a sheep. 


    Why a sheep?  Because they are a sucker.  Being led, moved, and influenced by a fickle majority is exactly what a sheep is.  Doing what they do, just because others do it....yeah.  Funny how this can also be used to describe some political groups as well.  But it's simple.  They aren't thinking for themselves, they just go with the flow.  
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,667
    Vhayne said:
    lahnmir said:
    Vhayne said:


    Do you like something? Do other people like the same thing? Awesome, now you’re a sheep too...

    Your simplification is quite frankly ridiculous and insulting to boot. Everybody is a wolf and a sheep, it depends on the situation, your labels are meaningless.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Nah, I don't see how your description works.  For example, if I like a band's music.  And other people like that band's music.  That doesn't make me a sheep, or them.  The band produces a product.  I/we like that product, so we purchase that product.  It is a product.  The band made that product.  We like it, we purchase it.  That is normal marketing.

    Paying a streamer to get yourself noticed, making comments on the ass-kisser ticker tape of a chat window, just to get yourself noticed, and mostly, watching whatever the streamer does just because he is popular and everyone else is going to be there too....that makes them a sheep. 


    Why a sheep?  Because they are a sucker.  Being led, moved, and influenced by a fickle majority is exactly what a sheep is.  Doing what they do, just because others do it....yeah.  Funny how this can also be used to describe some political groups as well.  But it's simple.  They aren't thinking for themselves, they just go with the flow.  
    What if someone uses the comments on the streamers feed to make a career, get himself noticed? He is a wolf then, not a sheep, it depends on the situation whether or not someone is a sheep or a wolf, and you are in no position to judge them, yet you try.

    You think you found all those awesome bands completely by yourself? No recommendations from friends? From Itunes? From a festival? From reviews? You get influenced all the timr, just like everybody else, you are a sheep then, even if you don’t realise it. It is very hypocrite to say that others are being led somewhere and are sheep and you actually chose everything yourself, perhaps they did as well? You assume a lot and talk down on a group which you yourself are part of half the time, you can get of the high horse.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,315
    AlBQuirky said:
    Vrika said:
    Vhayne said:

    Maybe I'm old.  Maybe I just don't get it.  Or maybe, this whole thing is just weird AF.
    @Vhayne

    Maybe you should start with something more basic, like: People are free.

    You don't need to understand why people choose some way to spend their free time. You only need to understand that they are free to do so, but you are not free to call groups who choose differently a problem while you're in public.
    I am NOT free, but I am cheap! $5/hour :lol:
    If everyone in my country would donate 10 cents to me, they wouldn't be any poorer, but I'd never have any money problems ever.
    I hate selfish people ;)
    AlBQuirkyPhryScot
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,407
    AlBQuirky said:
    Vrika said:
    Vhayne said:

    Maybe I'm old.  Maybe I just don't get it.  Or maybe, this whole thing is just weird AF.
    @Vhayne

    Maybe you should start with something more basic, like: People are free.

    You don't need to understand why people choose some way to spend their free time. You only need to understand that they are free to do so, but you are not free to call groups who choose differently a problem while you're in public.
    I am NOT free, but I am cheap! $5/hour :lol:
    If everyone in my country would donate 10 cents to me, they wouldn't be any poorer, but I'd never have any money problems ever.
    I hate selfish people ;)
    That's the mobile business model. People sell icon packs for $0.99 and easily make $50k-$100k per icon pack. I might just have to learn to make those.
    Jean-Luc_Picard




  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,099
    Kyleran said:
    Amathe said:
    What I think is becoming apparent is that the PvP market has been underserved, and the market for games that require a significant time investment to play has been overserved. 
    How has the PvP market been underserved exactly.  Even the OP has pointed out all the esports titles released in recent years which all serve the pvp crowd.  
    PVP which is designed around a fair, balanced team sports model have been well served. 

    PVP with consequences has been dominated by a model which greatly rewards time invested and hasn't been all that well received compared to the former.



    Yeah I generally hate grinds and huge power gaps in PvP.  Some games like AA have never ending lose growth and pay to win are automatic turn offs. 

    I would love a MMORPG that works more like an action adventure where you only gain abilities and some gear.  No crazy numbers just to have numbers.
  • IncomparableIncomparable Member UncommonPosts: 1,117
    edited November 2018
    I think your assumption that people play these games becuase of You tube is not accurate, or partly because of it, it becomes more popular.

    --First those games are B2P or even F2P, which makes them more accessible.

    --Secoundly they require less hardware to play. Someone with an old PC can play those games vs an MMO that would need a decent set up to even sometimes still look bad.

    --Action Combat Playstyle - Easy to learn and hard to master. Which is why people watch other PROs and learn from them but at the same time that kind of combat is so quick that they can easily hop on into the game and get their daily 'fix' of video gaming. WHere as in an MMO they might have instanced pvp but a person has get gear, and go through the grind etc...

    -- Accessibility - similar to previous point but need to re -iterate the significance of how this differs from an MMO. Anyone can just create an account and just play the 'end game'.

    If MMOs want to be more popular; then sure they can become more like e-sports, but at the same time it needs to be more accessible.

    SO how can an MMO do that, and still maintain its MMO identity?

    Well, imo, they can do that by having 

    1. Accessibility - Allow people to play end game, at least for pvp from character creation - and if its only pvp, then they dont have to pay
    2. Customization is mostly for people that play the MMO part, which might even include unique animations
    3. Balanced PVP
    4. Custom Maps
    5. Action oriented combat - A lot of the combat for MMOs seem a bit slow paced with a lot of animations (as in you see a lot happening but sometimes no one is even harmed due to Trinity). May be have less snares and movement impairs, and allow for mobility for all classes but still have cc, just not movement impairment
    6. Large pvp maps like Dota but in perspective of MMO (like they have in WoW)

    But the problem of hardware will still be a problem.

    “Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,671
    I know several people that only play games wehre there are alot of other players....I think sheep follow shee[p.
  • IsilithTehrothIsilithTehroth Member UncommonPosts: 566
    edited November 2018
    Vhayne said:
    Let me further explain a bit on the "streamers" thing.  

    First, you have the streamer.  I mean, he/she sits at home (or wherever) loads up a game, camera, and mic and begins "streaming".  He gets money, popularity, and acceptance from this.  This makes sense to him, as it's allowing him to further expand his hobby of gaming.  It's a lot easier to understand than this next part...


    The "viewer".  And yes, I'm going to call them a sheep.  Let's pretend that I want to all of a sudden become a sheep too.  So I get on twitch, find a popular streamer and begin watching.  This one action is questionable.  Why am I doing this?  Is it because I cannot afford to pay for that particular game?  Is it because I'm too lazy to actually play it myself?  Is it because I have to be surrounded by a crowd of like-minded people (the viewers and streamer) to enjoy something?  Is it because that particular person streaming has such a great personality and is just so dang funny that I MUST watch him play?  


    Now, as I'm trying to get used to being like a sheep I notice something else.  Well 2 somethings actually.  I see this chat window - or as I'd rather call it - a suck-up tickertape of sliced comments, scrolling by.  This thing moves so fast that each entire screen of it is refreshed twice a second.  So the text that these sheep are leaving behind aren't even going to be read.  It's obviously just a mess.  So, exactly what is the point of this thing?  It's like everyone is just trying to get noticed.  


    Then an even more confusing thing happens.  With some sound effect and simple graphic, we (the sheeple viewers) are notified that one of the idiots on the asskisser ticker has decided to donate money to the dude/girl that is streaming.  What motivated that person to decide, "hey, I'm going to give this guy some money."?  



    Maybe I'm old.  Maybe I just don't get it.  Or maybe, this whole thing is just weird AF.



    No its definately stupid. I always found the appeal of watching people play a game as idiotic, then you factor in people that donate. Why do you give your money to some guy just for the chance to get recognised by the fellower viewers? This is not to say I haven't watch some people play or some E-sport competitions(labeling it sport is so farfetched), but at the end of the day I'd rather play the game then watch someone else play it. I think its more of a newer generation thing and at least partial of people around my age.

    -Also Trammel didnt save UO in fact alot of people quit because of it. I never heard anything good about trammel or SWG NGE. The problem is people play a mmorpg with pvp and complain about being pked. Then they get a seething rage for anyone that ganks or pvps labelling them as griefers. Seems to happen alot.

    MurderHerd

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,847
    Saw this as the to post at the moment and right away it came to me.
    The backbone of the problem is not just the games,the players,it is the OTHER factors.
    Marketing is a billion dollar industry,know why,people are EASILY influenced by popularity,the status quo and notable figures.
    So we get these streamers like Ninja playing and endorsing Fortnite and look what game is the most popular game.
    We get people paid to endorse products every single minute of every single day.What i have seen is VERY gullible consumers,they will believe anything a marketing video shows them or what some website employees tell them.

    I see the puppets in twitch all the time,a popular streamer says something,ev1 is like HE IS RIGHT.Two months later said streamer changes his mind and then all the puppets are like ..he is RIGHT !!.
    Bottom line is people cannot think for themselves and it is in epidemic proportions.Anyone ever seen in a game chat the common questions....what class is the best dps,what class is the best healer,what is the best pvp class.Admit we all see these type of no able to think for themselves type questions asked a LOT.
    So bottom line is all of these outside influences are ruining consumers and ruining games,too much crap is being supported,too many lazy cheap developers are made rich via outside resources.



    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,315

    -Also Trammel didnt save UO in fact alot of people quit because of it.
    No matter how much you deny it, it actually did, and it was admitted by the developers back then too.

    The population was starting to drop badly, Trammel released, the game recovered and reached its peak population 2 years AFTER Trammel's release. Maybe a few people quit, but way, way more joined.

    So that sentence of you is basically completely wrong.
    Phry
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    I know several people that only play games wehre there are alot of other players....I think sheep follow shee[p.
    Word. Shout out to solitaire.

    Only the true shepherds understand the fun of playing by themselves or in extremely low populations. Full lobbies be damned.
    Jean-Luc_Picard
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    I know several people that only play games wehre there are alot of other players....I think sheep follow shee[p.
    I kind of do that myself.  I played some niche game with small player base.  It was fun.  The problem is after a while the game get on life support.  Either very little update or game get closed down.
  • VinterkrigVinterkrig Member UncommonPosts: 1,867
    It's the games. We keep getting fed early access rushed money grabs.
  • DwaaawffulDwaaawfful Member UncommonPosts: 63
    People!
     
    What a Nightmare those guys can be when it comes to Gaming!
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,368
    edited November 2018

    -Also Trammel didnt save UO in fact alot of people quit because of it.
    No matter how much you deny it, it actually did, and it was admitted by the developers back then too.

    The population was starting to drop badly, Trammel released, the game recovered and reached its peak population 2 years AFTER Trammel's release. Maybe a few people quit, but way, way more joined.

    So that sentence of you is basically completely wrong.
    Strange thing tho , that the most populated UO servers like UO Forever , (private servers ) and there are many , the most populated ones , all play Pre Trammel rulesets .. weird huh .. And ill add that a server like UO Forever has far more pop than Even Atlantic currently has ...

      There were several reasons for Trammel and the first was LAnd , there was no Land left thats why they began work on Trammel in the first place, it was provide more land , as Trammel developed the outcry over PKs had them add it as a no PK area .. ..

       But , none of that changes the fact that the Pre Trammel rule set is still the favorite among the Majority of UO players .. Go log into UO Forever right now and got W Brit Bank , there is barely room to stand most evenings..

     So to say that Pre Trammel ruined UO is a bit of a reach imo , Pre Trammel ruined UO for those folks that did not want or expect such a PK orieented world ,(thats for sure) thats shame on them , (many bruised vaginas ) They did not understnad what they were getting involved with and really never should have entered UO ...

      The people that left never really wanted or could stomach that type of Gameplay , The UO population that is left is happy and fine , and were the intended audience and the majority of them are playing in Pre Trammle Rule sets .. go figure. And ill add Many players even on Atl today spend there time in Fel ,Particularly when leveling has there is a skill and resource bonus gain there..

      So Pre Trammel could not of been the ruin of UO as it it is still today the most popular ruleset , UO has not been ruined , but certainly many people went into UO expecting something else , and the experience for that demograpgic was ruined , But for UO players Pre Trammel still stands tall , and it will weed out the weak ,, and leave strong players ..
     
      S o we cannot in the same breath say that the thing that ruined UO is the very thing keeping it alive ..
    Post edited by Scorchien on
    Gdemami
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    Scorchien said:

    -Also Trammel didnt save UO in fact alot of people quit because of it.
    No matter how much you deny it, it actually did, and it was admitted by the developers back then too.

    The population was starting to drop badly, Trammel released, the game recovered and reached its peak population 2 years AFTER Trammel's release. Maybe a few people quit, but way, way more joined.

    So that sentence of you is basically completely wrong.
    Strange thing tho , that the most populated UO servers like UO Forever , (private servers ) and there are many , the most populated ones , all play Pre Trammel rulesets .. weird huh .. And ill add that a server like UO Forever has far more pop than Even Atlantic currently has ...

      There were several reasons for Trammel and the first was LAnd , there was no Land left thats why they began work on Trammel in the first place, it was provide more land , as Trammel developed the outcry over PKs had them add it as a no PK area .. ..

       But , none of that changes the fact that the Pre Trammel rule set is still the favorite among the Majority of UO players .. Go log into UO Forever right now and got W Brit Bank , there is barely room to stand most evenings..

     So to say that Pre Trammel ruined UO is a bit of a reach imo , Pre Trammel ruined UO for those folks that did not want or expect such a PK orieented world ,(thats for sure) thats shame on them , (many bruised vaginas ) They did not understnad what they were getting involved with and really never should have entered UO ...

      The people that left never really wanted or could stomach that type of Gameplay , The UO population that is left is happy and fine , and were the intended audience and the majority of them are playing in Pre Trammle Rule sets .. go figure. And ill add Many players even on Atl today spend there time in Fel ,Particularly when leveling has there is a skill and resource bonus gain there..

      So Pre Trammel could not of been the ruin of UO as it it is still today the most popular ruleset , UO has not been ruined , but certainly many people went into UO expecting something else , and the experience for that demograpgic was ruined , But for UO players Pre Trammel still stands tall , and it will weed out the weak ,, and leave strong players ..
     
      S o we cannot in the same breath say that the thing that ruined UO is the very thing keeping it alive ..
    So how does the release of pve server destroyed the game.  I heard many say it.

    If so many liked the pvp server, it shouldn't matter pve server is released.
    Jean-Luc_PicardPhry
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,697
    DMKano said:
    The solution seems simple enough - if the people are the cause of all problems - remove all people - and the problems go away too.

    ;)
    I agree T-101, proceed! 
    Constantine, The Console Poster

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  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,131
    edited November 2018
    yeah , the problem with PC gaming isn't the games , it's the people .... who made those games .

    So yes , the solution is don't feed those people to remove them.
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,146
    iixviiiix said:
    yeah , the problem with PC gaming isn't the games , it's the people .... who made those games .

    So yes , the solution is don't feed those people to remove them.
    It's true. If no one ever buys a game again, there will be no more companies to make these abusive games.
    Gdemami
  • BestinnaBestinna Member UncommonPosts: 190
    yup its the people. ur so right. u can leave now
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    edited November 2018
    Well, games are a business like any other product or means of entertainment. Even sports are a business, made to make as much money as possible. Its not about how fun it is, but how much money one can make from it.

    AlBQuirky

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



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