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Time Keeps on Ticking

AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
Many people, myself included, enjoy playing mmorpgs slowly and at their own pace. They don't "rush to end game," and feel that a lot of fun gets missed by those who do.

But time and tide wait for no man.

More and more it seems, taking one's time leads to getting behind other players to a point where zones become wastelands. You may find it harder to group if you progress slowly. And when you do reach the "end game," it is no longer the end game!  There will have been whole new end games introduced through patches and expansions. That, again, makes it hard to find people to do that content with. 

So how does a game developer design their game to allow for fun, voluntary slow progression? How, as in golf, can developers allow faster players to "play through" without screwing up anyone else's game?

I hate playing games where I hear (metaphorically) a stopwatch in my head as I go.

EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

AlBQuirky[Deleted User]

Comments

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    Amathe said:
    Many people, myself included, enjoy playing mmorpgs slowly and at their own pace. They don't "rush to end game," and feel that a lot of fun gets missed by those who do.

    But time and tide wait for no man.

    More and more it seems, taking one's time leads to getting behind other players to a point where zones become wastelands. You may find it harder to group if you progress slowly. And when you do reach the "end game," it is no longer the end game!  There will have been whole new end games introduced through patches and expansions. That, again, makes it hard to find people to do that content with. 

    So how does a game developer design their game to allow for fun, voluntary slow progression? How, as in golf, can developers allow faster players to "play through" without screwing up anyone else's game?

    I hate playing games where I hear (metaphorically) a stopwatch in my head as I go.
    I think the main problem with older games and the term "endgame" is that "endgame" means different things to people coming from older games that either shut down or became less populated. In a lot of older games, endgame didn't translate into hitting level cap and doing content at max level. If you look at games like ragnarok online/ffxi (these are just a couple I had personal experience with that were before wow's time, I'm sure there are way more that did something similar), "endgame" would "slowly unlock" over time and getting higher level just meant you had more stuff you could do. "Endgame" was something that kept building on itself and wasn't some goal post that automatically moved just cause the devs wanted it to and funnel people into that one thing. So taking mindsets like that and trying to force feed them into the WoW paradigm causes a bunch of mixed reactions. Some people are able to adapt and others aren't but still want something they can be a part of. Even people within wow's time frame have to adjust or find something else now since the game is a shell of its former self to a lot of people who used to play it. I think a lot of the reasons that people dont want to go 'slowly' anymore is because of where you end up in these games today. Everyone just ends up at the same place and the other options you have are to engage in a treadmill or repeat what you just did, thus turning to the "illusion" of progressing.
    AlBQuirky
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,600
    I used to play 10+ hours of mmorpg a day.  It is not that I rush to end game.  After a few days I get to end game, LoL.

    In some games I have thousands of playing hours.  And 99% of the time I spend in end game.

    I think it is more about designing a game where the end game is the same from start to finish.  Many game change dramatically during the leveling phase and max level.
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,223
    Play with a friend or friends only. 

    Things cannot be made to please everybody. You can't cater to everyone, you're only goal as a business is to cater to whatever maximizes your profits. If you're a minority in what a player wants then you suffer as usual. 
    Sovrath
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,347
    A game that isn't fun if you don't rush in a way that you dislike is a game that isn't fun, period.  So quit and find a different game to play.
    Grunty
  • GruntyGrunty Member EpicPosts: 8,657
    edited November 2018
    Wrong thread
    "I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone.  It's not.  The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone."  Robin Williams
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,256
    edited November 2018
    That's why i always said MMO need to be more casual and less rush

    Root of this problem is developer want player to play as developer want . Create more wall to stop player playing with other .

    Contents need to be replay able and no level require to do it , because number is also power .

    alkarionlog
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    PhaserlightAlBQuirkyAmathe
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  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,903
    Here's a recipe I would follow:
    • Choose your "power tier", essentially how powerful you want a character to be.
    • Make newbie character pretty much that powerful
    • However that base class is going to be pretty boring.  Imagine warrior/rogue with only long cooldowns as their energy system.
    • Then make it so that as you customize your character it stays kind of close-ish to your base "power tier".  But becomes more interesting (shorter cool downs but with energy bars, and similar) and occasionally has "bursts" where everything lines up (energy/cooldowns/whatever) where you're a little above the expected power tier.

    It's kind of a disappointment that more Indy devs haven't done this.   Even most Indies can add some 20 to 40 hours of content.  It's just that as a character becomes more powerful they lock themselves out of 90% of the content in the game.

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Amathe said:
    Many people, myself included, enjoy playing mmorpgs slowly and at their own pace. They don't "rush to end game," and feel that a lot of fun gets missed by those who do.

    But time and tide wait for no man.

    More and more it seems, taking one's time leads to getting behind other players to a point where zones become wastelands. You may find it harder to group if you progress slowly. And when you do reach the "end game," it is no longer the end game!  There will have been whole new end games introduced through patches and expansions. That, again, makes it hard to find people to do that content with. 

    So how does a game developer design their game to allow for fun, voluntary slow progression? How, as in golf, can developers allow faster players to "play through" without screwing up anyone else's game?

    I hate playing games where I hear (metaphorically) a stopwatch in my head as I go.
    Make separate games?

    Why does an MMO have to please everybody? I know... Money. That is the biggest reason they all suck right now because not one focuses on any specific player group. Nearly every MMO is made for everyone... Except for us slow players, of course ;)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    DMKano said:

    So not everyone takes their time in MMOs
    This was never in doubt. Maybe you didn't have time *wink* to read my post. The issue I raised is how to accommodate players, fast and slow.
    [Deleted User]Kyleran

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    AlBQuirky said:

    Why does an MMO have to please everybody? I
    "Have to" is not the words I would use. It is desirable in my opinion because these are community based games, and communities are enriched by diversity. I like having a variety of in game friends who are crafters, roleplayers, casual adventurers, raiders, low levels, high levels, and so on. That makes the game a lot more fun for me and gives me more choices. 

    I agree you don't want to damage the game by trying to do this and failing. Or by sacrificing something at the expense of something else. But it has been done successfully. For example, people forget that EQ had a ton of all types of players, who each enjoyed the game in their own way.
    MadFrenchieAlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    Amathe said:
    DMKano said:

    So not everyone takes their time in MMOs
    This was never in doubt. Maybe you didn't have time *wink* to read my post. The issue I raised is how to accommodate players, fast and slow.
    I don't think it can be done if the developers don't hinder the players with the most time.

    Didn't Final Fantasy 14 try to do that by limiting the amount of xp a person could get in a day? They took that system away.

    What developers can do is to make the game "fun" for people from all walks of "gaming life."

    And what players need to understand is that if they don't have a lot of time to play they just won't be competitive. They just need to be able to enjoy the game as is.

    Obviously, this works best for pve games. Unless of course the pvp portion is more about "skill" and less about gear and level.
    Panther2103
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  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,766
    Sovrath said:
    Amathe said:
    DMKano said:

    So not everyone takes their time in MMOs
    This was never in doubt. Maybe you didn't have time *wink* to read my post. The issue I raised is how to accommodate players, fast and slow.
    I don't think it can be done if the developers don't hinder the players with the most time.

    Didn't Final Fantasy 14 try to do that by limiting the amount of xp a person could get in a day? They took that system away.

    What developers can do is to make the game "fun" for people from all walks of "gaming life."

    And what players need to understand is that if they don't have a lot of time to play they just won't be competitive. They just need to be able to enjoy the game as is.

    Obviously, this works best for pve games. Unless of course the pvp portion is more about "skill" and less about gear and level.
    Yeah FFXIV originally did that with 1.0, where you could only gain X amount per day (or was it week?) and they limited the amount of leves you could do, so people would just chain them in groups to get as much EXP as possible. 

    I think the only way to accomodate both, is make content that is fun while leveling as well. Don't focus so hard on endgame. If you focus on endgame you create the rush to cap. 

    Not sure if there will ever be a balance in a level based game, or a gear based game, for players who have time and players who don't. Which is why a lot of people I know gravitated away from MMORPG's. Most of my friends play shooters where everyone is on a relatively even playing field, or single player games. 
    Amaranthar
  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 1,019
    Cross your fingers that the game you're diving into has the mechanics that match your play style, I guess.

    I just can't burn through content. Not that I wouldn't, but I just don't have the time to play that I used to have, so I work slowly through the game. I like trying all the class/race combinations. I like getting powerful and then being able to help my alts with crafting stuff.

    I'm def not a min/maxer and I'm fine with getting the best equipment possible before the tier that requires lots of grinding/skill. If it's something I can work on over time, then I'll do it, but I can't rush. And I can always go back and solo old endgame content for that stuff eventually, in WoW anyway.

    I'm not a Dev, but I've never understood why they can't incorporate game mechanics to meet every players wants/needs, so it's easy for me to say.

    Gut Out!

    What, me worry?

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,584
    you guys say it like it was hard, long journey to max lvl, not a a week or 2, aion on launch took me a month to cap lvl 50, and spend the rest of the 2 years grinding for pvp gear lol

    saying lvls don't matter is dumb, gw2 have tried and was not good, other try to put a mentor system on HL players rush lowbies on dungeons, people abused this a lot, to the point of creating new chars to rush dungeons then deleting then, just understand ther eis not way to put something up then it will not be sploited in some way the devs didn't think, and then they will nerf/stop that and then players move on, over and over.
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  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    DMKano said:
    I min/max and rush to the end game with my guild as fast as possible

    We are usually the first on the server to hit end game content.

    So not everyone takes their time in MMOs
    I think the OP is aware of it.
    He knows that many people rush to end content, and most developers cater for this category.
    He is complaining there aren't many MMOs that cater for his slower play style.
    He has a point, in my opinion.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited November 2018
    I can't read this thread title without singing it and ending it with "ticking, tickin, tickin...  Into the FUTURRRRREEEEE!"
    maskedweasel[Deleted User]Amathe

    image
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    edited November 2018
    The Elder Scrolls Online is a quite good model for that, even as a newbie you can immediately play with your friends, no matter what level they are. And even if you go two weeks on holidays, you'll never be so far behind that you can't still do many activities with the same friends who kept on playing.

    That's also a good point for heavily Sandbox oriented MMORPGs like Ultima Online.

    That time ticking thing is the plague of EQ clones (including games like WoW or LOTRO), the rush for gear and endgame where you can quickly fall behind.
    That's exactly why I like the true Sandbox concept, if it's done right.
    And why I like exploration and mysteries to find and/or solve.
    Players can speed their way through game play, and maybe find more things of interest, but the slower playing peeps can still make their own discoveries or solve their own quests too, simply because the speed players can't get it all. Plus, if they're rushing through, they could miss hints and clues that the slow players have a better chance of getting.

    Some design concepts can greatly improve this. But that's too much to get into.

    Once upon a time....

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    If I am not building my characters life in a permanent sense I will treat the game as temp.  Where is my mark on the world?  

    Themeparkmania lead to the current state.  Refinements to make games better always seem to rip the soul of games.  Kind of like going from Morrowind to Skyrim. Sure the game got refined/streamlined but it lost something.

    MMORPG have largely walked the same path together.  Similar improvements with similar drawbacks. To my point the genre is redundant and developers made ways to ease the pain.  Even if it contradicts the very features.  This pushes the rush on everyone.
    Amaranthar
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    If I had my way every game would allow me to turn off experience when I chose.
    Kyleran
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited November 2018
    Well the only legit game i can think of that is/was  a slow grind that wasn't to to aid in selling cash shop items,is FFXI.Levels went slow so you felt like gear was not a temp,standby waste of time.Then because of so many classes your items/gear were still retained for future times.Your character had a VERY long career of advancing via being able to utilize every single class on the same character and mix n matching.
    Sadly even FFXI was ruined by corporate greed and became a much faster leveling experience.

    Most every other game is a one of altaholic game,meaning early levels are forever forgotten,they no longer mean anything to your character.The FFXI design meant you actually did not need much new content for years,where as these other games,,you can see why they make expansions every 12 months.

    Every single one of these games have become END GAME,nobody cares about the rest of the game and nothing other than those end game dungeons matter either,you play that zone once,cya later forever.You do NOT do LAZY fixes by scaling the content,that ruins immersion,the world has zero identity then,just becomes a bunch of computer code that changes the mobs.


    Amaranthar

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    If I am not building my characters life in a permanent sense I will treat the game as temp.  Where is my mark on the world?  

    Themeparkmania lead to the current state.  Refinements to make games better always seem to rip the soul of games.  Kind of like going from Morrowind to Skyrim. Sure the game got refined/streamlined but it lost something.

    MMORPG have largely walked the same path together.  Similar improvements with similar drawbacks. To my point the genre is redundant and developers made ways to ease the pain.  Even if it contradicts the very features.  This pushes the rush on everyone.
    That's an interesting take, although basically the same general theme of losing "soul."
    I didn't play Morrowind, but I had a feeling that there was a drawback going into Skyrim.
    The level by quest systems are natural race-to-top creators. In any game, players will race to the top of the levels or skills systems, but quest designs give you the race track, front and center. And the power gaps make it much more meaningful.

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    edited November 2018
    Wizardry said:
    Well the only legit game i can think of that is/was  a slow grind that wasn't to to aid in selling cash shop items,is FFXI.Levels went slow so you felt like gear was not a temp,standby waste of time.Then because of so many classes your items/gear were still retained for future times.Your character had a VERY long career of advancing via being able to utilize every single class on the same character and mix n matching.
    Sadly even FFXI was ruined by corporate greed and became a much faster leveling experience.

    Most every other game is a one of altaholic game,meaning early levels are forever forgotten,they no longer mean anything to your character.The FFXI design meant you actually did not need much new content for years,where as these other games,,you can see why they make expansions every 12 months.

    Every single one of these games have become END GAME,nobody cares about the rest of the game and nothing other than those end game dungeons matter either,you play that zone once,cya later forever.You do NOT do LAZY fixes by scaling the content,that ruins immersion,the world has zero identity then,just becomes a bunch of computer code that changes the mobs.


    I totally agree, wholeheartedly, on your last comment about world identity and immersion.
    Changing things to fit the character just seems so cheap and lacking in accomplishment. It's like blue ribbons for last place, equal to blue ribbons for first place.

    I half expect an e-mail someday with a congratulatory "you're reached level 60!" in a game I never played, along with an invite to their cash shop. 

    Once upon a time....

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