people whos saying Witcher 3 AND red dead 2 best game ever made cause of story are ruining gaming?

Aeander · November 2018

Sovrath said:

Aeander said:

badermal said:

yes and also skyrim let you freely mod we can almost create anything we can even create witcher 3 in skyrim if modders are good and everything can be made better with mod plus vanilla game itself is good with many things to do than just mainstory

Except that no, you can't create the Witcher 3 in Skyrim. Even in a complete fantasy land in which a modder had the time and talent to complete such a monumental undertaking, you wouldn't get the Witcher 3. You'd get a buggy, lesser version of the Witcher 3 crudely plastered onto a buggy, lesser game. And that's before the possibility of copyright issues and potential conflicts with the hundreds or thousands of other mods you'll be running to pretend that Skyrim is a better game than it actually is.

Again, this is all personal preference. If Elder Scrolls games were the only games made I'd be beyond happy.

But as I said, I play these games for years.

And while I think the Witcher 3 is a great game, it's not a great game for me. If it was I've had played it through several times by now.

As it is, I can only play it so much before I get tired of it. Though I do think that for me it's the combat and how Geralt moves. I always feel like I'm fighting to make him go anywhere.

Here's the thing. I'm not talking about your preferences, which are clearly derived from being physically incapable of dealing with action combat for an extended time. And that's cool. You do you, and if there are legitimate physical reasons for that, all the power to you. Hell, my dad can't play almost any action RPG because any fast moving camera can and will make him physically ill, but that doesn't make Kingdoms of Amalur have bad combat, it just makes it unsuitable for him.

There are objective insufficiences with TES combat. It can be more polished or refined to meet the standards of other first person shooters and first person combat games. But they haven't done the work required to make their magic more interesting or make their archery as satisfying as that in other shooters of Skyrim's time, let alone now. They didn't bother to program AI that can't be completely and universally cheesed by the simple combination of Sneaking and Archery. These aren't flaws in comparison to the Witcher 3, these are just flaws in their own right.

Sovrath · November 2018

Aeander said:

Sovrath said:

Aeander said:

badermal said:

yes and also skyrim let you freely mod we can almost create anything we can even create witcher 3 in skyrim if modders are good and everything can be made better with mod plus vanilla game itself is good with many things to do than just mainstory

Except that no, you can't create the Witcher 3 in Skyrim. Even in a complete fantasy land in which a modder had the time and talent to complete such a monumental undertaking, you wouldn't get the Witcher 3. You'd get a buggy, lesser version of the Witcher 3 crudely plastered onto a buggy, lesser game. And that's before the possibility of copyright issues and potential conflicts with the hundreds or thousands of other mods you'll be running to pretend that Skyrim is a better game than it actually is.

Again, this is all personal preference. If Elder Scrolls games were the only games made I'd be beyond happy.

But as I said, I play these games for years.

And while I think the Witcher 3 is a great game, it's not a great game for me. If it was I've had played it through several times by now.

As it is, I can only play it so much before I get tired of it. Though I do think that for me it's the combat and how Geralt moves. I always feel like I'm fighting to make him go anywhere.

Here's the thing. I'm not talking about your preferences, which are clearly derived from being physically incapable of dealing with action combat for an extended time. And that's cool. You do you, and if there are legitimate physical reasons for that, all the power to you. Hell, my dad can't play almost any action RPG because any fast moving camera can and will make him physically ill, but that doesn't make Kingdoms of Amalur have bad combat, it just makes it unsuitable for him.

There are objective insufficiences with TES combat. It can be more polished or refined to meet the standards of other first person shooters and first person combat games. But they haven't done the work required to make their magic more interesting or make their archery as satisfying as that in other shooters of Skyrim's time, let alone now. They didn't bother to program AI that can't be completely and universally cheesed by the simple combination of Sneaking and Archery. These aren't flaws in comparison to the Witcher 3, these are just flaws in their own right.

No, I can handle action combat just fine and prefer it.

I want a game where I swing a sword and raise my shield. Not hit some skill and do something ridiculous. Unless of course I'm playing a ridiculous game. Like many Asian mmo's. Then I adjust to the game.

So you will have to give an example of a good swords & Sorcery combat game. And don't say Witcher 3.

And while we are at it, give examples of magic more interesting.

As far as the archery and sneaking, that was the point. They initially did'n't want it to be so "one shot" but players loved it and felt it was fun and satisfying so they kept it.

Are there better archery systems? Don't know I haven't played where I've liked the archery so give me an example of that as well.

It's not about action combat, it's about "fun action combat that feels right"

So go ahead.

(I should add that "yes" I could make a list of things that could be improved in skyrim or any Elder Scrolls game but the game play, what draws me and many others, is greater than the sum of its parts)

Scorchien · November 2018

I really dislike the Interactive Story games .. Did not like ME because of it or DA , just horrible imo , I do not want to spend more time running up and down a hill between some NPC watching there clips for 7 min to get to 2 minutes of gameplay ..

As far as W3 , i have no interest in from the videos ive seen , and its Geralt , had enough of him in W 1-2 .... boring ...

RDR2 , i may look at if ever comes to PC , but if either are Story Driven Interactive Media more than they are actual games , then they will never see my HD anyhow ..

Aeander · November 2018

Sovrath said:

Aeander said:

Sovrath said:

Aeander said:

badermal said:

yes and also skyrim let you freely mod we can almost create anything we can even create witcher 3 in skyrim if modders are good and everything can be made better with mod plus vanilla game itself is good with many things to do than just mainstory

Except that no, you can't create the Witcher 3 in Skyrim. Even in a complete fantasy land in which a modder had the time and talent to complete such a monumental undertaking, you wouldn't get the Witcher 3. You'd get a buggy, lesser version of the Witcher 3 crudely plastered onto a buggy, lesser game. And that's before the possibility of copyright issues and potential conflicts with the hundreds or thousands of other mods you'll be running to pretend that Skyrim is a better game than it actually is.

Again, this is all personal preference. If Elder Scrolls games were the only games made I'd be beyond happy.

But as I said, I play these games for years.

And while I think the Witcher 3 is a great game, it's not a great game for me. If it was I've had played it through several times by now.

As it is, I can only play it so much before I get tired of it. Though I do think that for me it's the combat and how Geralt moves. I always feel like I'm fighting to make him go anywhere.

Here's the thing. I'm not talking about your preferences, which are clearly derived from being physically incapable of dealing with action combat for an extended time. And that's cool. You do you, and if there are legitimate physical reasons for that, all the power to you. Hell, my dad can't play almost any action RPG because any fast moving camera can and will make him physically ill, but that doesn't make Kingdoms of Amalur have bad combat, it just makes it unsuitable for him.

There are objective insufficiences with TES combat. It can be more polished or refined to meet the standards of other first person shooters and first person combat games. But they haven't done the work required to make their magic more interesting or make their archery as satisfying as that in other shooters of Skyrim's time, let alone now. They didn't bother to program AI that can't be completely and universally cheesed by the simple combination of Sneaking and Archery. These aren't flaws in comparison to the Witcher 3, these are just flaws in their own right.

No, I can handle action combat just fine and prefer it.

I want a game where I swing a sword and raise my shield.
That's fine. For your benefit, I'd recommend you try the new age Assassin's Creed games - Origins and Odyssey. Their directional blocking is exhilirating.

Not hit some skill and do something ridiculous. Unless of course I'm playing a ridiculous game. Like many Asian mmo's. Then I adjust to the game.
That isn't even a valid complaint for the Witcher 3. Outside of the obvious magics, very little he does would be physically ridiculous for a normal human, much less a greatly physically enhanced mutant such as himself.

So you will have to give an example of a good swords & Sorcery combat game. And don't say Witcher 3.
Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, despite its flaws and lacking difficulty. It has a phenomenal action combat system that could very well still be the gold standard for RPG combat.

And while we are at it, give examples of magic more interesting.
You mean other than "very nearly every other game with magic ever made?" No, but really. Any quality fantasy MMORPG has more flexible, interesting magic. Hell, Elder Scrolls Online has better magic due to its hotbar allowing for multiple equipped spells and more interesting spell effects. Hell, Two Worlds II, despite being a bad knockoff of Skyrim, has a huge magic-crafting system with custom spells.

As far as the archery and sneaking, that was the point. They initially did'n't want it to be so "one shot" but players loved it and felt it was fun and satisfying so they kept it.
The problem isn't the "one shotty" damage. It's the way the braindead AI treats stealth. It isn't even stealth or sneaking, so much as crouching and being basically immune to most detection, including by enemies that you've already shot.

Are there better archery systems? Don't know I haven't played where I've liked the archery so give me an example of that as well.
The problem with Skyrim's archery is its lack of impact. It doesn't look, feel, or sound especially impactful, unless you trigger an execution cutscene. This has more to do with the weak sound effects than anything. But in terms of modern archery, I like Monster Hunter World's approach to the bow, which is more impactful, has the devastating Dragon Piercer attack for risky, high damage bursting, and even has quickly swappable arrow types for status effects.

Admittedly, archery is the most serviceable part of TES combat, with melee and magic being the weaker links.

It's not about action combat, it's about "fun action combat that feels right"

So go ahead.

(I should add that "yes" I could make a list of things that could be improved in skyrim or any Elder Scrolls game but the game play, what draws me and many others, is greater than the sum of its parts)

In bold. And don't think I'm talking down to you specifically. My problem is solely with the shallow statements and utterly baffling nonsense uttered by the OP. People like him are the reason why games still don't receive the artistic recognition they deserve.

Sovrath · November 2018

Aeander said:

In bold. And don't think I'm talking down to you specifically. My problem is solely with the shallow statements and utterly baffling nonsense uttered by the OP. People like him are the reason why games still don't receive the artistic recognition they deserve.

I didn't really think Kingdom of Amalur had such a fantastic combat system. It's a good game and I think it's underrated. I think you are talking about the chaining of abilities if you get off a number of shots or that you can have a specific combo if you rush at an enemy?

Sure, I definitely think the archery could feel more impactful. I had downloaded a mod that alters the sound so it sounds more like a real bow.

I actually hate Elder Scrolls Online so I can't agree with the magic system. I tend to "hotbar" my magical abilities in skyrim so I can change them on the fly (well, up to 8 slots.

I don't think the "power" of magic is enough in skyrim. It's something I noticed in the mod I'm making, if someone is a pure mage they will have to have one of the mods that alter magic as they will be at a disadvantage.

I will have to try those other games to see what their archery is like.

lahnmir · November 2018

Interesting train of thought. The next step would be dismissing graphics and sound, production values all together, because it is all about the gameplay and everything else distracts and artificially inflates scores?

Story is an integral part of a gameplay experience. A good story can make an average game good and a bad story can make a good game average. How much influence story has on the overall experience depends on genre and preference. Games like Forza, Street Fighter, Ninja Gaiden etc. have little use for a good story. Adventures, JRPGs etc. benefit greatly from it.

A game really isn’t solely about the actual gameplay, we have gone far beyond that. Hellblade is a perfect example, its a good game but the story, and how it is presented, elevate it to an instant classic for me.

Don’t dismiss stuff so easily just because you don’t see the importance of it OP, different people appreciate different things, they are not less valuable then what you like.

Oh, and insulting people has never helped furthering a discussion so lets just skip that please...

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

newbismx · November 2018

Scorchien said:

I really dislike the Interactive Story games .. Did not like ME because of it or DA , just horrible imo , I do not want to spend more time running up and down a hill between some NPC watching there clips for 7 min to get to 2 minutes of gameplay ..

As far as W3 , i have no interest in from the videos ive seen , and its Geralt , had enough of him in W 1-2 .... boring ...

RDR2 , i may look at if ever comes to PC , but if either are Story Driven Interactive Media more than they are actual games , then they will never see my HD anyhow ..

RDR2 gives you the best of both worlds-

There is a story and you will have to get to 'chapter 2' (I think) for most of the open world things to unlock as the things you can do are unlocked by playing the story - Akin to a tutorial of sorts.

-At that point you can pretty much just play as wild west life simulator... My gameplay loop mostly consisted of exploring and setting up a camp and spending days hunting and fishing, filling my horses with pelts and meat and then heading to town to spend a few days selling, gambling and doing 'town stuff'- On the way I would get caught up in a myriad of random events that I sometimes would get tied up in... It was amazing (although it probably doesnt sound like it)-

The random events (depending on how you handle them) could end up leading to branching things and characters who will recur in your game until the end- One of the most touching moments (that nearly made me cry) was merely a scene that happened at the end that only happened because I helped a certain person out earlier in the game... I could have totally not had that happen if I hadnt run across that particular instance (hard to discuss without spoilers) but it was amazing the depth that opens up even if its illusion...It was amazing so much time and attention was put into an event that many people would never see and i'm sure I missed a ton as well.

I played with other mechanics like train, store and bank robbery but I preferred to just live a simple life in the woods.

But...The story- Its great and always there waiting for you and...man (do NOT read spoilers) its fantastic outside of a few questionable things or parts that seemed tacked on just to make it more 'action-y'.

RDR2 is open world done right and has the best of all worlds since you can pretty much ignore the open world and just run the story or you could ignore the story and just 'live' (although you will run out of things to do eventually)..I enjoyed both immensely.

Aeander · November 2018

lahnmir said:

Interesting train of thought. The next step would be dismissing graphics and sound, production values all together, because it is all about the gameplay and everything else distracts and artificially inflates scores?

Story is an integral part of a gameplay experience. A good story can make an average game good and a bad story can make a good game average. How much influence story has on the overall experience depends on genre and preference. Games like Forza, Street Fighter, Ninja Gaiden etc. have little use for a good story. Adventures, JRPGs etc. benefit greatly from it.

A game really isn’t solely about the actual gameplay, we have gone far beyond that. Hellblade is a perfect example, its a good game but the story, and how it is presented, elevate it to an instant classic for me.

Don’t dismiss stuff so easily just because you don’t see the importance of it OP, different people appreciate different things, they are not less valuable then what you like.

Oh, and insulting people has never helped furthering a discussion so lets just skip that please...

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

I mostly agree with this. However, when you say that games like Street Fighter have little use for a story, I have to disagree. The story mode in Injustice 2 elevates it from a good fighting game to a great one (and the wealth of single player multiverses and gear progression elevate the game even further from a value proposition standpoint.) Sure, none of this matters if all you're doing is online and tournament play, but the average non-pro user is going to get a lot of value from these things.

Also, "good story" can be subjective to genre. The Subspace Emissary of Super Smash Bros Brawl fame isn't a narratively good story, but it does add a great deal of fanservice, content, and fun to make Brawl one of the most content dense, memorable casual fighting games ever made. It is so influential, in fact, that the longest work of English literature ever made is a Super Smash Bros brawl fanfiction.

lahnmir · November 2018

Aeander said:

lahnmir said:

Interesting train of thought. The next step would be dismissing graphics and sound, production values all together, because it is all about the gameplay and everything else distracts and artificially inflates scores?

Story is an integral part of a gameplay experience. A good story can make an average game good and a bad story can make a good game average. How much influence story has on the overall experience depends on genre and preference. Games like Forza, Street Fighter, Ninja Gaiden etc. have little use for a good story. Adventures, JRPGs etc. benefit greatly from it.

A game really isn’t solely about the actual gameplay, we have gone far beyond that. Hellblade is a perfect example, its a good game but the story, and how it is presented, elevate it to an instant classic for me.

Don’t dismiss stuff so easily just because you don’t see the importance of it OP, different people appreciate different things, they are not less valuable then what you like.

Oh, and insulting people has never helped furthering a discussion so lets just skip that please...

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

I mostly agree with this. However, when you say that games like Street Fighter have little use for a story, I have to disagree. The story mode in Injustice 2 elevates it from a good fighting game to a great one (and the wealth of single player multiverses and gear progression elevate the game even further from a value proposition standpoint.) Sure, none of this matters if all you're doing is online and tournament play, but the average non-pro user is going to get a lot of value from these things.

Also, "good story" can be subjective to genre. The Subspace Emissary of Super Smash Bros Brawl fame isn't a narratively good story, but it does add a great deal of fanservice, content, and fun to make Brawl one of the most content dense, memorable casual fighting games ever made. It is so influential, in fact, that the longest work of English literature ever made is a Super Smash Bros brawl fanfiction.

Agree, thats why I also mentioned preference as a factor besides genre

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Aeander · November 2018

Gorwe said:

TEKK3N said:

badermal said:

All the witcher 3 and Red dead 2 fans are movie freaks who started gaming? they really dont care about gameplay at all only story graphics character and voice it is what they care? when their game fails hardly on gameplay and combat system

do our gaming get ruined by these fans? who just say the game is best ever made cause it has story

I don't know about Red Dead, but Witcher 3 is just a good game.
It is an RPG, and there 2 main type of RPGs:
1) Story driven (Witcher, Dragon Age)
2) Sandboxy (Fallout 4, Skyrim)

Both types can be good or bad.
The Witcher, Dragon Age, Fallout and TES, are good games regardless of which category they belong to.

Exactly. We only prefer some over others. I, for example, much prefer games that are Story Driven. Because I am not really a fan of Sandbox mentality. Maybe it is because I grew up with Mario, Crash, Spyro etc. I simply didn't play in the sand enough. I always liked having clear goals. Which doesn't mean Sandbox games are bad - far from it. I just devalue them because I like having structure.

I've gotten tired of open worlds through overexposure. If it's a really high quality one, I may find value in it, but I've recently been craving memorable linear games (like God of War 2018).

Moirae · November 2018

Witcher 3 IS one of the best games ever. I've never played Red Dead. Now stop the insults. You not liking it doesn't make them bad, it makes it your opinion. Most of the rest of the world disagree with you.

Nibs · November 2018

badermal said:

@nibs ; for read dead i might agree that it may some gameplay but still i cant find anything intersting to do than hunting mission poker and same repeated events like same guy asking for same help which gets boring at some point
and for witcher 3 you may like it but as the gameplay is not really fun than mission and few side quest so after beating game there is nothing to do unlike skyrim and witcher 3 is also called as open world but nothing in it than few side missions and gwent but thats personal opinion

I'm sorry, I must have missed the memo naming you Arbiter of Fun.

Some people find hunting, missions, and poker fun. You clearly aren't one of them, so move on.

Some people find mountain climbing, base jumping, and skateboarding fun; I don't. But I don't think they're any way ruining the forms of entertainment I do enjoy.

Following your logic, one could argue that people that enjoy battle royale or 5v5 arena games fun are ruining gaming. There's nothing to do in them but kill each other. Or CCG games are ruining games because blah blah blah.

Do you think rom coms are ruining the movie industry? Or sit coms are ruining TV? How about Family Fued? Is that ruining game shows?

Shaigh · November 2018

Those that can't see beyond their own preferences are the ones that ruins gaming.

kertin · November 2018

RDR 2 had a good story? Ahaaaa...

acidblood · November 2018

While I don't hold The Witcher 3 or RDR2 up as 'the best games ever', a good story, characters and a well realised world help to elevate a game beyond its basic gameplay, so there are good reasons they are so well liked, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Personally though, I prefer a better mix of story and solid gameplay / design, and hold the likes of God of War (2018), Horizon: Zero Dawn, The Last of Us, Valkyria Chronicles, Persona 5, and classics such as Dues Ex (2000), Metal Gear Solid (PS1), and Resident Evil 2 (PS1) in higher regard.

(And yes, those are mostly PlayStation games, but hey, they make what I like).

Grunty · November 2018

"Video games can never be art." Roger Ebert, 2010.

He wasn't exactly a gamer.

Aethaeryn · November 2018

badermal said:

All the witcher 3 and Red dead 2 fans are movie freaks who started gaming? they really dont care about gameplay at all only story graphics character and voice it is what they care? when their game fails hardly on gameplay and combat system

do our gaming get ruined by these fans? who just say the game is best ever made cause it has story

I see what you are saying. . Tomb Raider is a great example. I *gasp* can't get into the Witcher (because of the gameplay I am thinking). I got immersed in Kingdom Come Deliverance almost immediately though.

Having said that I really liked Tomb Raider for what it was.

I don't think they are ruining gaming. . it is just one type of game.

Look at the full motion video games that came out when DVD was introduced. It leaned heavily that way. Was Wing Commander's gameplay ruined by it.

Good story doesn't have to meant bad game play. I LOVE the story in KCD. I also enjoy how the game plays.

If games sell based on cut-scenes and visuals then . . they sell because people want that. There are a lot of people making other great games. . even if they are mostly indie devs.

Quizzical · November 2018

If gaming is being ruined, then yes, it is definitely the fault of people. Or at least that's about as much as I could parse from the thread title and original post. I have no clue what Witcher 3 or Red Dead Redemption 2 has to do with that, however.

ceratop001 · November 2018

If you are looking for a truly authentic mmorpg experience play Lotro on legendary server. You can use high resolution if your computer can handle it. The game looks great and it will immerse you into Lotros world. Maybe some of you are young and can't relate to a semi old school mmorpg. Well this is your chance! Just a thought in case you are bored and looking for something to play...

Cheers...

YashaX · November 2018

TEKK3N said:

badermal said:

All the witcher 3 and Red dead 2 fans are movie freaks who started gaming? they really dont care about gameplay at all only story graphics character and voice it is what they care? when their game fails hardly on gameplay and combat system

do our gaming get ruined by these fans? who just say the game is best ever made cause it has story

I don't know about Red Dead, but Witcher 3 is just a good game.
It is an RPG, and there 2 main type of RPGs:
1) Story driven (Witcher, Dragon Age)
2) Sandboxy (Fallout 4, Skyrim)

Both types can be good or bad.
The Witcher, Dragon Age, Fallout and TES, are good games regardless of which category they belong to.

Agreed, and I would argue that Witcher 3 and DAO had much better "gameplay" than Skyrim.

In fact one of the reasons I love W3 is because its gameplay is so good; its story, graphics, pacing, characters, world, and lore are also outstanding. Its precisely because the game is so good on so many fronts that many people think its the bee's knees. It wouldn't have made the cut if it only had a good story.

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people whos saying Witcher 3 AND red dead 2 best game ever made cause of story are ruining gaming?

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