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The problem with PC gaming isn't the games, it's the people

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  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,553
    I watch Twitch to learn things about a game I was already interested in from a personality I find credible. Sometime they might introduce me to something I never heard of.

    It's no different than what I do here.

    People will play good games for years if the game is maintained by a company who intends for the game to be good for many years. It's simple as that. Fortnite isn't just Fortnite by magic. There's seasons that keep things spiced up. Kids got to fricken play as Thanos in a reversed version of tag.

    Remember when MMORPG subscriptions were still the industry standard? Steady content stream was expected back then. They gave up on that and decided F2P was the perfect cop out to that expectation.

    Survey Says

    Raging Demons for all flowchart "Kens". This is a metaphor.
  • AmatheAmathe Member EpicPosts: 4,677
    Amathe said:
    What I think is becoming apparent is that the PvP market has been underserved, and the market for games that require a significant time investment to play has been overserved. 
    How has the PvP market been underserved exactly.  Even the OP has pointed out all the esports titles released in recent years which all serve the pvp crowd.  
    Evidence the explosion of PvP oriented games in the last few years. As you and the OP point out. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,498
    Sometimes there are networking effects.  The larger a game's playerbase, the easier it is to get matched with appropriately skilled players to play a match yourself.  If you can sign up for a match and have a suitable match within seconds, that can be preferable to waiting several minutes for a match or sometimes getting fairly unbalanced matches, even if in a game that you'd otherwise like a little better.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,224
    Amathe said:
    What I think is becoming apparent is that the PvP market has been underserved, and the market for games that require a significant time investment to play has been overserved. 
    How has the PvP market been underserved exactly.  Even the OP has pointed out all the esports titles released in recent years which all serve the pvp crowd.  
    PVP which is designed around a fair, balanced team sports model have been well served. 

    PVP with consequences has been dominated by a model which greatly rewards time invested and hasn't been all that well received compared to the former.



    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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  • BladeburaibaBladeburaiba Member UncommonPosts: 37
    Not sure who is saying it is a "problem."  Don't you worry, in about 20 years, the millennials will be on this site or a similar site typing the same thing you are typing now.  JUST.STAY.ALIVE.TO.SEE.IT.
    Phry
  • AmatheAmathe Member EpicPosts: 4,677
    Bladeburaiba said:

    JUST.STAY.ALIVE.TO.SEE.IT. 
    It's one of my aspirational goals.
    AlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,498
    Kyleran said:
    Amathe said:
    What I think is becoming apparent is that the PvP market has been underserved, and the market for games that require a significant time investment to play has been overserved. 
    How has the PvP market been underserved exactly.  Even the OP has pointed out all the esports titles released in recent years which all serve the pvp crowd.  
    PVP which is designed around a fair, balanced team sports model have been well served. 

    PVP with consequences has been dominated by a model which greatly rewards time invested and hasn't been all that well received compared to the former.
    You can also get PVP with consequences that greatly rewards money invested.
  • MeleconMelecon Member UncommonPosts: 70
    @Vhayne

    You are close, but missed the mark. As others pointed out these games aren't trendy or about youtubers. Its about the competitiveness nature of the game. When a game is good and competitive it really doesn't matter how "New" the game is as long as it scratches an itch, in this case its competition.

    This is further explained with how we as humans consume sports the first competitive games, we have played Football, Soccer, Hockey, Lacross, Rugby, Racing for how long close to hundreds of years, shouldn't we be making new Sports to play instead of the old stuff that we watch? Not to say that things don't change but how often, as we no longer watch the Gladiator fights at the Colosseum anymore, but some say it just evolved into modern sports.

    So to conclude this is just par for the course for Humans, find what you want to play and like how cares about the others as they would just be watching Sports anyways and not interfering with your gaming.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 7,828
    edited November 2018
    Kyleran said:
    Amathe said:
    What I think is becoming apparent is that the PvP market has been underserved, and the market for games that require a significant time investment to play has been overserved. 
    How has the PvP market been underserved exactly.  Even the OP has pointed out all the esports titles released in recent years which all serve the pvp crowd.  
    PVP which is designed around a fair, balanced team sports model have been well served. 

    PVP with consequences has been dominated by a model which greatly rewards time invested and hasn't been all that well received compared to the former.
    The only reason the unbalanced PvP model where you have max level/skill characters one shooting newbies worked for a very short time was because back then, during pre-Trammel UO, there was no really serious alternative if you wanted to play a MMORPG. Then came EQ, and also AC1, which offered PvE only servers and/or choice, and people started to quit UO for games which weren't encouraging griefing. That's the moment when the UO developers added Trammel to save the game.

    Nobody(*) enjoys being the target of bullies, specially not in a MMORPG which is a leisure activity they are paying for. That's why that model always fails when no working safeguards are installed. That's why EVE works. That's why Trammel saved UO.

    (*) except possibly masochists ;)
    KellerPhry
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,498
    The players are the problem?  Well then, let's just dissolve the playerbase and go find another.  That worked great for SWG, didn't it?  </sarcasm>
    mmolouRidelynnPhryFlyByKnight
  • VhayneVhayne Member UncommonPosts: 632
    Melecon said:
    @Vhayne

    You are close, but missed the mark. As others pointed out these games aren't trendy or about youtubers. Its about the competitiveness nature of the game. When a game is good and competitive it really doesn't matter how "New" the game is as long as it scratches an itch, in this case its competition.

    This is further explained with how we as humans consume sports the first competitive games, we have played Football, Soccer, Hockey, Lacross, Rugby, Racing for how long close to hundreds of years, shouldn't we be making new Sports to play instead of the old stuff that we watch? Not to say that things don't change but how often, as we no longer watch the Gladiator fights at the Colosseum anymore, but some say it just evolved into modern sports.

    So to conclude this is just par for the course for Humans, find what you want to play and like how cares about the others as they would just be watching Sports anyways and not interfering with your gaming.
    Yeah I get that.  And I agree, about the "who cares" thing.  I shouldn't.  We shouldn't.  But the issue is that we as gamers depend on a steady stream of new games being released by (what used to be considered artists) developers.  In the sports industry, there isn't any innovation - no need to make another sport (game).  

    To be a gamer means you like to play video games.  That has always meant (until presently) that we feed on the creativity of the artistic developers.  You can only play Mario for so long until you would like something new.  Then along comes Sonic.  That works for a while too.  And on and on.  We used to be a niche group of people that abhorred the sports industry (I liked playing them as a kid with friends from time to time).  A lot of us were bullied by the "popular" crowds, and we rejected them as well.  We grew up being the black sheep of the family because we liked playing games.  Everyone called us "nerds" or "geeks".  

    But now, those "sports-types" of people are all considered "gamers" as well.  And our beloved developers, those companies, are catering to them on a constant basis.  
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 833
    I think there are more mmorpg to MOBA type of games.  People just like to play MOBA more that is why there are more people.  MOBA type game are so competitive there are only a few exist(at least to my knowledge).  

    And I think the reason MOBA type of game is more popular is because pvp players just want to pvp.  They don't need to waste time on the "extras".  Probably why the same reason people complain about themepark games.  People always want 100% of the mmorpg to cater for them. 
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 6,685
    I don't think I understand.

    How can I, a person who is wanting to find a leisure activity, be wrong about what I prefer?

    Can a preference, by definition, be wrong?

    I would say they can be morally wrong, or ethically wrong, and different people with different preferences may not agree with each other, but that isn't the same thing as saying my preference is wrong... So I would say that a preference cannot be wrong, it just exists. 

    Since my preference as a gamer can't be wrong, the game must be incompatible with my preference. Therefore, the games are wrong, not the players. 

    It's a developers job to cater to their player base, not the other way around. That being said, I can accept that not all games target me as a player. And I can even accept that my play style and preferences are not main stream any longer and, as a result, don't receive a lot of attention any longer. I think other people just need to come to the same realization: it's not all about ~you~.
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 5,361
    Vhayne said:

    Maybe I'm old.  Maybe I just don't get it.  Or maybe, this whole thing is just weird AF.
    @Vhayne

    Maybe you should start with something more basic, like: People are free.

    You don't need to understand why people choose some way to spend their free time. You only need to understand that they are free to do so, but you are not free to call groups who choose differently a problem while you're in public.
     
  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Member EpicPosts: 4,436
    Kyleran said:
    Amathe said:
    What I think is becoming apparent is that the PvP market has been underserved, and the market for games that require a significant time investment to play has been overserved. 
    How has the PvP market been underserved exactly.  Even the OP has pointed out all the esports titles released in recent years which all serve the pvp crowd.  
    PVP which is designed around a fair, balanced team sports model have been well served. 

    PVP with consequences has been dominated by a model which greatly rewards time invested and hasn't been all that well received compared to the former.



    I can get on board with that.  PVP with consequences is something that is tough to hit the target.  Look at all the failed games that did it poorly.  However one can also say that it is the smallest niche crowd to target.  EVE is about the only one still going with any real population anyway.  Even with it no matter how you twist it, time is still heavily rewarded.  Yes a noob can contribute and with a lot of luck take down a vet 1 on 1 but that is the exception and not the rule.
  • AllerleirauhAllerleirauh Member UncommonPosts: 485
    edited November 2018
    @Vhayne Did you really just call people who watch Twitch streamers sheep? There are many reasons to call people sheep, but watching someone play a game on Twitch is not one of them lol. My sister likes to watch YouTubers stream; I much rather play the game than to watch other people play it, but that hardly makes people who like to watch someone play, sheep. It's called entertainment.
    Currently Playing: Path of Exile

    "I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." ~ C. S. Lewis
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,026
    I play Tennis. I am actually quite good, really good. 
    Pics or it isn't true!

    image
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 15,769
    Haha ...OP

    I have made this point a hundred or more times already for many years.

    No question what so ever that popularity both in numbers and the streamers/players makes it or breaks it.Popularity can just start with even a mediocre number but it snowballs quickly.Like Wow for example,what did it have the first few months,2-3 million?Then it snowballed to 16 million.

    The game Fortnite,i had this very thought on that game just last night while i was playing imo the MUCH better UT99.Ut99 is quite old now,dated graphics so none of that cutesy pink napsacks or pink hats crap.Then the game is no longer on the scene for Esports or ladders or leagues,so it does not attract the $$$$ and the players seeking fame and fortune.Then the popular streamers won't play it because it won't bring in the most viewers.

    I know fps gaming very well,i come from the Quake Ut background.I know everything from latency to cheats to zaxis to hot spots,map control ,weapon types,distance,listening for sounds,etc etc.There is without question no doubt UT99 is MUCH better than Fortnite,so people are NOT playing for the fun or the most competitive atmosphere,they are playing for the ranks,the popularity and the money.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 15,769
    I play Tennis. I am actually quite good, really good. 
    Pics or it isn't true!
    LOL i have tennis trophy from an under 16 tournament MANY years ago,i loved tennis but it fell out of favor among sports so it was near impossible to find anyone to play that was any good.

    As to the poster who says he watches streams to learn from credible players,well that is a good idea and works for the most part.

    There are things you might not understand or know and will not see in a stream,VERY important things.Latency,i have seen top players AFRAID to lose would hangout on the lowest ping servers all the time.Then there is your entire computer setup from network cards,to mouse Dpi,to monitor to keybinds.
    Keybinds is an important topic because most people or a high majority have no clue what is going on.When i was a noob,i had no clue,i was amazed the first time i realized and how much better it makes you as a player.

    Cheats:The term credible is very tough,you just never know.I have seen cheats finally caught after years then the community would be like WHOA who would have guessed.Cheats have evolved incredibly to the point it is almost impossible to spot one and does take a vet of that game and one who understands how cheats work to spot one.
    A game like Fortnite is NOT a good design to spot a cheat because it is always in the open.A game that uses walls where you can NOT see your opponent starts to show when a player is cheating.Example you just stick your head out and dude is already lined up on you not looking anywhere else.

    Cheats have evolved into aim assists/aimbots that no longer snap to the target,they move slower to imply manual aim and can be adjusted to work with your ping.Even the accuracy can be adjusted because obviously a locked on target is a dead give away,so you can set aim assist to say 85%.
    MadFrenchie

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 7,828
    There's another factor ruining PC gaming... people who should just stick to a console but for some reason buy a PC. Then they complain to no end that they can't afford a modern PC and therefore games should be adapted to their own crappy old computer.
    Please, do us a favor... buy yourself a playstation or an xbox... because that's what you want, yet you don't realize it ! But stop trying to pull the PC gaming down to your pathetic level.
    parrotpholkPhryAlBQuirky
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • Tindale111Tindale111 Member UncommonPosts: 258
    Are you not the wolf and i am the sheep if i act and agree on your arguments ? but seriously if i see a game on steam that i think i might like i read the reviews if im not satisfied with them ill watch a stream and then decide weather i would like to buy or not just because a streamer may say this is a great game or its shite i can see for myself from their gameplay if its my sort of game regardless of weather their good or bad at the game 
  • VhayneVhayne Member UncommonPosts: 632
    edited November 2018
    Are you not the wolf and i am the sheep if i act and agree on your arguments ? but seriously if i see a game on steam that i think i might like i read the reviews if im not satisfied with them ill watch a stream and then decide weather i would like to buy or not just because a streamer may say this is a great game or its shite i can see for myself from their gameplay if its my sort of game regardless of weather their good or bad at the game 
    Actually in my illustration, the wolf would be the one who takes advantage of the sheep.  That would be the streamer = wolf.  I'm just a bystander who notices.

    Reading a review, or watching a stream of someone playing a game so that you can determine if you want to purchase the game makes total sense.  That's not what the majority of the "watchers" are doing however.  They watch it like a show.  They type their little messages, which disappear in less than a second, in the hopes that they get noticed by someone.  Then they donate money to the streamer for whatever reason....  And the process continues.  What kind of person does this? Seriously.  Sheep.

    Yes, I call them sheep.  Anyone that is sitting there watching this, and trying to get noticed on a ticker-tape chat and throwing money at the screen just so their little name pops up and tells everyone that you donated $2.00....again just to get noticed, is a sheep.

    This behavior of "the people" that are doing this, IMO, is ruining gaming in general.  I state PC gaming because aside from Origin, Blizzard, and a few other launchers, Steam is the most prominent.  The statistics show the data, and it points to this type of behavior.  The newer, and sometimes better games are being avoided and ignored by the VAST majority....again, according to the data.

  • Tindale111Tindale111 Member UncommonPosts: 258
    Vhayne said:
    Are you not the wolf and i am the sheep if i act and agree on your arguments ? but seriously if i see a game on steam that i think i might like i read the reviews if im not satisfied with them ill watch a stream and then decide weather i would like to buy or not just because a streamer may say this is a great game or its shite i can see for myself from their gameplay if its my sort of game regardless of weather their good or bad at the game 
    Actually in my illustration, the wolf would be the one who takes advantage of the sheep.  That would be the streamer = wolf.  I'm just a bystander who notices.

    Reading a review, or watching a stream of someone playing a game so that you can determine if you want to purchase the game makes total sense.  That's not what the majority of the "watchers" are doing however.  They watch it like a show.  They type their little messages, which disappear in less than a second, in the hopes that they get noticed by someone.  Then they donate money to the streamer for whatever reason....  And the process continues.  What kind of person does this? Seriously.  Sheep.

    Yes, I call them sheep.  Anyone that is sitting there watching this, and trying to get noticed on a ticker-tape chat and throwing money at the screen just so their little name pops up and tells everyone that you donated $2.00....again just to get noticed, is a sheep.

    This behavior of "the people" that are doing this, IMO, is ruining gaming in general.  I state PC gaming because aside from Origin, Blizzard, and a few other launchers, Steam is the most prominent.  The statistics show the data, and it points to this type of behavior.  The newer, and sometimes better games are being avoided and ignored by the VAST majority....again, according to the data.

    well i didnt actually know that people chucked money at streamers i thought they got their money by the advertising in their streams but i dont see a big problem with this if you go to the cinema its going to cost you about £10 to be entertained for a couple of hours do people chuck money at boring streamers ? ill be honest if the Hiveleader was to make longer streams id be tempted to chuck him a couple of bucks because he entertains me but then again probarly not because hes likely to say sucker lol and ok i get it anyone who chucks money at a streamer just to say they have in chat would be a bit sad 
  • free2playfree2play Member UncommonPosts: 2,013
    The thing with using streaming as your game health benchmark is, it isn't even balanced in the games.

    Top 3 games will consume 90% of the viewers but go in to the said game category and it is just as top heavy. 200 people can be streaming PubG but 99% of the viewers are on 3 streamers. The other 197 streamers have 1 or 2 viewers.

    The bigger thing is, those streamers could be playing (and have) Goat Simulator and the views follow them. In short, the games are not the draw. The streamers are.

    Even in steam, the games that are high player active are lobby games and the games don't distinguish how they got logged in to the lobby or if they are active in the game. If 90% of your time in an MMO was spent LFG you we would call that game garbage but that is precisely what Lobby games are. Maybe that's why we are at an MMO web site and play MMOs.

    If your trying to get a feel for what game you should stream, play whatever. If you have a gimmick that gets you millions of viewers they will watch you play anything as long as you play the game and don't let it play you. Something good streamers have mastered.
  • VhayneVhayne Member UncommonPosts: 632
    free2play said:
    The thing with using streaming as your game health benchmark is, it isn't even balanced in the games.

    Top 3 games will consume 90% of the viewers but go in to the said game category and it is just as top heavy. 200 people can be streaming PubG but 99% of the viewers are on 3 streamers. The other 197 streamers have 1 or 2 viewers.

    The bigger thing is, those streamers could be playing (and have) Goat Simulator and the views follow them. In short, the games are not the draw. The streamers are.

    Even in steam, the games that are high player active are lobby games and the games don't distinguish how they got logged in to the lobby or if they are active in the game. If 90% of your time in an MMO was spent LFG you we would call that game garbage but that is precisely what Lobby games are. Maybe that's why we are at an MMO web site and play MMOs.

    If your trying to get a feel for what game you should stream, play whatever. If you have a gimmick that gets you millions of viewers they will watch you play anything as long as you play the game and don't let it play you. Something good streamers have mastered.
    …..aaaaaannnnnddd…..those people that follow those streamers, to watch anything they play,  just because they are popular, are...….sheep.  
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