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You Asked, Echtra Listened: Torchlight Frontiers & Its Free-to-Play Philosophy - MMORPG.com

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Comments

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,552
    Haha,is there a political election going on here.Nice of them to say all the right things.

    If they are truly listening then here it is and why NO amount of monetizing tweaks will get me to play right now.

    The game is TOO shallow and i do not like SPAMMY mindless combat what so ever,no way no how.
    So if your bent on making a VERY cheap ARPG,then guess what,the game is only as good as F2p and as such should never cost anyone more than a few bucks a month.So if you can keep their interest for 1 year "not asking much"at 3 bbucks per that is 36 bucks a year.TYhis guess will NOT be worth anymore than 36 bucks a year and i can repeat a statement i made in soem other thread.

    I bought the ENTIRE FFXI game on Steam about 4 years ago for 15 bucks that included a free month.This Torchlight Will NEVER come remotely close to the massive amount of content and systems,so at a few bucks a month ,imo Torchlight for me is already too costly.

    So here it is,you want a busy game because busy attracts other players,once it looks dead it is Wildstar and >>>DEAD.So a game like Arpg's should be a B2p ,maybe you can bait in fanbois of the genre to pay 35-50 bucks.Make 200k sales that is 7-15 million,no way could this game expect to make anymore than that.
    So don't bbe greedy,take what the game is worth,it'll come off a LOT better.


    TacticalZombeh

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,552
    Aeander said:
    I just want more permanence and reason to keep playing outside of the typical hardcore and seasonal nonsense. ARPGs need to figure out a way to make keeping a character in the long term meaningful.
    Yep same here,i want a GAME...go figure eh?

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • XophXoph Member UncommonPosts: 144
    edited November 2018
    Just found my Alpha invite in the inbox. Excited to give this one a shot.
  • evolgrinzevolgrinz Member UncommonPosts: 123
    They say they reject P2W, but
    "but the team may sell "some special items, like specific Relic Weapons, though these will also be "a reasonable way to attain or craft them through normal gameplay as well"
    sounds a lot like P2W to me.
  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,245
    normal gear and most Relic Weapons is only earned through adventuring, but the team may sell "some special items, like specific Relic Weapons, though these will also be "a reasonable way to attain or craft them through normal gameplay as well"

    This was the only thing that worried me but if you can actually play the game and get them then no problem. Would not have been good to sell weapons that you can only get on the cash shop. Could see them putting some cosmetic things in the shop that you can only get there and have no problem with that though.

    Still on the fence though about this one as I only play ARPG as single player games myself. Will have to see how much impact having others in some zones really is.
    JeffSpicoli
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,010
    Press releases about cash shops has never been worth a damn thing.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • MensurMensur Member RarePosts: 853
    thunderC said:
    I'm not thrilled hearing this. Iv come to realize i hate F2P in most but not all games. Cosmetics to me are just as important as the OP items with kick ass stats. Its a 50/50 split when it comes to gear ,Its not good enough just being powerful i want to look the part as well and paying for the cosmetics cheapens the experience. Now i know they listed all these can be obtained in game which is great to hear but me, personally, I'd rather just pay a flat fee for the game and thats that. None of this cash shop crap

    I have to be honest I'm a little disappointed.
    I agree with this Brother.

    When I put hours into a game to get the Item- I also want it to look the part...having these cosmetic bullshit shops does not give me that same satisfaction of obtaining the item and also "obtaining" a cool look.  

    Same like PoE I love that game- but all the legendary drops look like crap- until you get a cosmetic...You cant have a cool looking char without paying some money for it..and that is not what games and progression is about..If you put in the hours you aught to look the part...not pay to look the part.!


    JeffSpicoli

    Proud MMORPG.com member since 2009! 




  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,372
    Iselin said:
    Sounds reasonable enough but I just hate it when developers start playing the semantics game with things like "For one thing, there is no specific "winning""

    That's a weak argument I expect from fans of games, not developers.

    Why? Because most gamers struggle with the difference between the terms "to win" vs "an advantage?"

    Not the developer's fault gamers tend to be willfully ignorant of the difference.


    Iselin

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,642
    Kyleran said:
    Iselin said:
    Sounds reasonable enough but I just hate it when developers start playing the semantics game with things like "For one thing, there is no specific "winning""

    That's a weak argument I expect from fans of games, not developers.

    Why? Because most gamers struggle with the difference between the terms "to win" vs "an advantage?"

    Not the developer's fault gamers tend to be willfully ignorant of the difference.


    There is no clear definition of Pay to Win which would be consistently followed. Therefore, any discussion around what is Pay 2 Win and what is not is worthless.

    I personally believe this term was originally invented to describe monetization practices with a potential to provide players with any sort of ingame advantage with exchange for real money.

    It was never meant to be taken literally like that you can actually pay to "win the game". Even "winning" in a PC game without a clear end goal is not defined. How do you "win" an mmo / mmorpg?

    I personally believe the term "Pay to Win" should be abandoned altogether. It will always come down to what a particular person subjectively considers acceptable in terms of monetization and what is over the line for them.

    I would, for instance, personally consider ability to buy increased gold drop rate, experience gained, etc. as P2W in a sense that I described above. You will find a million people in the world for whom this would not be P2W. Any arguments as to who is correct would be worthless as it is all subjective. 

    DirtyDozenIselin
  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,278
    Mykell said:
    Devs interpretations of reasonable is usually my definition of grindy as hell. I hope to be proven wrong but i kinda doubt it.

    I don't want to agree with this, but I have to.

    Most games' version of "reasonable" basically translates to "only play this game 8 hours a day, seven days a week for a month, and you can have the same thing that your buddy bought in two seconds with their credit card."

    For instance, progressing in World of Tanks was absolutely miserable until I became a wallet warrior and simply paid to bypass the tanks I didn't want to miserably grind through, and paid a subscription so that every death didn't lead to losing credits and bought a gold tank so that I could earn enough credits quicker to buy the tanks that I actually wanted to drive.

    Most F2P games have a "suffer until you open your wallet" policy.

    The absolute worst of these was SWTOR, who literally made you buy back UI elements if you weren't a subscriber.  Pieces of the UI, were literally locked away from you for not ponying up the dough.  As bad as other games like Planetside 2 were at monetizing their game, none that I have played have ever come remotely close to how bad SWTOR is/was.
    uriel_mafess
  • RemyVorenderRemyVorender Member RarePosts: 3,823
    Was hoping for B2P. Ahh well.
    DirtyDozen

    Played: AA, AC1, AC2, Aion, AO, AoC, BDO, CO, CoX, DAoC, DCUO, EVE, EQ1, EQ2,
    ESO, Fallen Earth, FFXI, FFXIV, GW1, GW2, Istaria, L2, LoTRO, MxO, Neverwinter, Rift, RoE,
    Ryzom, Shadowbane, SWG, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, WAR, WoW, WURM...and a bunch of others not worth mentioning.


    Joined - July 2004

  • elyssariaelyssaria Member UncommonPosts: 44
    H0urg1ass said:
    Mykell said:
    Devs interpretations of reasonable is usually my definition of grindy as hell. I hope to be proven wrong but i kinda doubt it.

    I don't want to agree with this, but I have to.

    Most games' version of "reasonable" basically translates to "only play this game 8 hours a day, seven days a week for a month, and you can have the same thing that your buddy bought in two seconds with their credit card."

    For instance, progressing in World of Tanks was absolutely miserable until I became a wallet warrior and simply paid to bypass the tanks I didn't want to miserably grind through, and paid a subscription so that every death didn't lead to losing credits and bought a gold tank so that I could earn enough credits quicker to buy the tanks that I actually wanted to drive.

    Most F2P games have a "suffer until you open your wallet" policy.

    The absolute worst of these was SWTOR, who literally made you buy back UI elements if you weren't a subscriber.  Pieces of the UI, were literally locked away from you for not ponying up the dough.  As bad as other games like Planetside 2 were at monetizing their game, none that I have played have ever come remotely close to how bad SWTOR is/was.
    Well this is life I guess.... Some people (like) me have to work their butt of you be able to buy a ferrari and some people are simply born with the finances to buy it...

    Life isn't always fair and never will be.... as long Ferrari gets the money they want for the car then they don't care how the money is earned.



    Mensur
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,090
    Kyleran said:
    Iselin said:
    Sounds reasonable enough but I just hate it when developers start playing the semantics game with things like "For one thing, there is no specific "winning""

    That's a weak argument I expect from fans of games, not developers.

    Why? Because most gamers struggle with the difference between the terms "to win" vs "an advantage?"

    Not the developer's fault gamers tend to be willfully ignorant of the difference.


    Because there is no P2W because there is no winning is a dumbass manipulative argument that attempts to distract from the real issue.

    If it helps you, think about what they're actually saying: "You can't win our game so we will sell anything we feel like selling because P2W does not exist."

    Don't be willfully obtuse.
    Mensur
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,518
    Aeander said:
    I just want more permanence and reason to keep playing outside of the typical hardcore and seasonal nonsense. ARPGs need to figure out a way to make keeping a character in the long term meaningful.
    Nah... I'll completely disagree here. I'm tired of games being torn apart to include features and things to appeal people who don't like the genre.

    If you don't enjoy the gameplay loop of an ARPG that is basically the same old grind over and over then play something else.

    This bastardization of everything to appeal everyone is one of the problems that leads to most game genres (including MMORPGs) these days being on the garbage bin.

    There is nothing wrong to be done with something. If you finished certain ARPG story and you don't want to re-do it or play a seasonal event... then do something else with your life?
    cmacq
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 4,845
    edited November 2018
    Nyctelios said:
    Aeander said:
    I just want more permanence and reason to keep playing outside of the typical hardcore and seasonal nonsense. ARPGs need to figure out a way to make keeping a character in the long term meaningful.
    Nah... I'll completely disagree here. I'm tired of games being torn apart to include features and things to appeal people who don't like the genre.

    If you don't enjoy the gameplay loop of an ARPG that is basically the same old grind over and over then play something else.

    This bastardization of everything to appeal everyone is one of the problems that leads to most game genres (including MMORPGs) these days being on the garbage bin.

    There is nothing wrong to be done with something. If you finished certain ARPG story and you don't want to re-do it or play a seasonal event... then do something else with your life?
    This faulty mindset is how we end up with franchise and genre stagnation.

    At any rate, this hypothetical ARPG wouldn't even be the first with permanence, or are we going to pretend that Marvel Heroes never existed. That game had long term progression. It had many characters to keep the story replays fresh. And while it lacked conventional seasons, it did allow you to prestige characters at will and rewarded you for doing so - effectively the same thing. And it was fun.
    Mensur
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,518
    Aeander said:
    Nyctelios said:
    Aeander said:
    I just want more permanence and reason to keep playing outside of the typical hardcore and seasonal nonsense. ARPGs need to figure out a way to make keeping a character in the long term meaningful.
    Nah... I'll completely disagree here. I'm tired of games being torn apart to include features and things to appeal people who don't like the genre.

    If you don't enjoy the gameplay loop of an ARPG that is basically the same old grind over and over then play something else.

    This bastardization of everything to appeal everyone is one of the problems that leads to most game genres (including MMORPGs) these days being on the garbage bin.

    There is nothing wrong to be done with something. If you finished certain ARPG story and you don't want to re-do it or play a seasonal event... then do something else with your life?
    This faulty mindset is how we end up with franchise and genre stagnation.

    At any rate, this hypothetical ARPG wouldn't even be the first with permanence, or are we going to pretend that Marvel Heroes never existed. That game had long term progression. It had many characters to keep the story replays fresh. And while it lacked conventional seasons, it did allow you to prestige characters at will and rewarded you for doing so - effectively the same thing. And it was fun.
    You say genre stagnation I say genre definition. Nothing stops people from mixing genres or building new things.

    But you should know the difference: I don't want to be catered to play Fifa. I hate Fifa and they should keep doing Fifas that I hate. Because what makes me hate Fifa is what makes Fifa fans love Fifa.
    Mensur
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 4,845
    Nyctelios said:
    Aeander said:
    Nyctelios said:
    Aeander said:
    I just want more permanence and reason to keep playing outside of the typical hardcore and seasonal nonsense. ARPGs need to figure out a way to make keeping a character in the long term meaningful.
    Nah... I'll completely disagree here. I'm tired of games being torn apart to include features and things to appeal people who don't like the genre.

    If you don't enjoy the gameplay loop of an ARPG that is basically the same old grind over and over then play something else.

    This bastardization of everything to appeal everyone is one of the problems that leads to most game genres (including MMORPGs) these days being on the garbage bin.

    There is nothing wrong to be done with something. If you finished certain ARPG story and you don't want to re-do it or play a seasonal event... then do something else with your life?
    This faulty mindset is how we end up with franchise and genre stagnation.

    At any rate, this hypothetical ARPG wouldn't even be the first with permanence, or are we going to pretend that Marvel Heroes never existed. That game had long term progression. It had many characters to keep the story replays fresh. And while it lacked conventional seasons, it did allow you to prestige characters at will and rewarded you for doing so - effectively the same thing. And it was fun.
    You say genre stagnation I say genre definition. Nothing stops people from mixing genres or building new things.

    But you should know the difference: I don't want to be catered to play Fifa. I hate Fifa and they should keep doing Fifas that I hate. Because what makes me hate Fifa is what makes Fifa fans love Fifa.
    Genre definitions are cool and all, but every genre has common mechanics that may not actually be core or essential to that genre's definition and strict adherence to these can be crippling to a genre.

    For example, is a three lane DotA style map part of the genre definition for a MOBA? It clearly isn't, as some of the best ones have bucked that trend. But the genre at large adheres to it so strictly, to its detriment, that one would think that it is.

    But I digress. I don't care if what I want is genre mixing (ARPG and MMORPG) or simply a black sheep in the ARPG genre. I want what I want and I do not care how that is labelled. 
    Mensur
  • MensurMensur Member RarePosts: 853
    edited November 2018
    elyssaria said:
    H0urg1ass said:
    Mykell said:
    Devs interpretations of reasonable is usually my definition of grindy as hell. I hope to be proven wrong but i kinda doubt it.

    I don't want to agree with this, but I have to.

    Most games' version of "reasonable" basically translates to "only play this game 8 hours a day, seven days a week for a month, and you can have the same thing that your buddy bought in two seconds with their credit card."

    For instance, progressing in World of Tanks was absolutely miserable until I became a wallet warrior and simply paid to bypass the tanks I didn't want to miserably grind through, and paid a subscription so that every death didn't lead to losing credits and bought a gold tank so that I could earn enough credits quicker to buy the tanks that I actually wanted to drive.

    Most F2P games have a "suffer until you open your wallet" policy.

    The absolute worst of these was SWTOR, who literally made you buy back UI elements if you weren't a subscriber.  Pieces of the UI, were literally locked away from you for not ponying up the dough.  As bad as other games like Planetside 2 were at monetizing their game, none that I have played have ever come remotely close to how bad SWTOR is/was.
    Well this is life I guess.... Some people (like) me have to work their butt of you be able to buy a ferrari and some people are simply born with the finances to buy it...

    Life isn't always fair and never will be.... as long Ferrari gets the money they want for the car then they don't care how the money is earned.



    That analogy makes no sense, mate! We are talking about virtual goodies....items made out of thin air...a Ferrari is something different - that is a life style..a life style you treat different than a game....Maybe you can use that for Star Citizen..where deep wallets really do matter.....but not in this debate.

    Proud MMORPG.com member since 2009! 




  • exile01exile01 Member RarePosts: 1,050
    I liked TL1 and TL2, lets see how this goes.
  • RobbgobbRobbgobb Member UncommonPosts: 664
    I am very interested in this game. Was looking that it would cost to buy but I am not going to complain till after it is out about if free was wrong choice. I watched the video on relic weapons and they are very powerful and level up so just buying is a benefit but they said it should an average of 10 runs of the boss that drops the core needed for a relic weapon. So it is a time advantage but since there is so much in this game that will be time gated then I am not too worried. I get to go at my own pace and don't have to worry about others. When I am making my wood into lumber and have to wait 24 hours for that to be done then grinding other things is not really the worst.
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