Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

What World of Warcraft: Battle for Azeroth Needs to Succeed -



  • strykr619strykr619 Member UncommonPosts: 273
    a 14 year old game that is still considered the bench mark for MMORPG's in the west. Forgive me if this article is /yawn.

    WoW is what it is.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,437
    Zamuro said:

    SBFord said:

    @Nanbino That's not going to happen. The article is written, not from the perspective of the typical "WoW hater", but from that of someone who cares about the game as it is and wants to see it get better. There's tons of room for improvement and they need to pursue that.

    Classic fans will get their turn soon enough. Let's keep the thread on track please.

    the "typical wow haters" are ppl that care about the game too but have already seen what blizzard is doing and are angry. i am one... i love wow, wotlk is my favorite expansion. since cata they took the wrong direction. wod completely destroyed the game, legion fixed it a little big so bfa can completely destroy it again. i honestly dont see it possible that wow can be fixed anymore thats why im gonna be playing classic when it comes out. wow is done.
    That's the thing. Running all content from "Vanilla" through the expansions made me see that the mistakes are there since the very first one. They took a wrong turn since the very first expansion, but was a light left... BFA was a hard one.

    Most problems in their design phylosophy can be traced back to TBC and WOTLK, it's just we were way more forgiven those days due our hope it would get fixed/get better.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • ArgostArgost Member UncommonPosts: 21
    edited October 2018
    I made a comment on the WoW forums awhile back. It was after the burning. I stated that for the horde the only true redemption would be Saurfang waking the Lich King and offering himself up for Cairne to be raised. Looks like they partially listened... Look up posts by Tsogra@Thrall.... Whether I guessed partially the story or they took it from me.... Neither one bodes well.
    Edit: Looks like that post was removed. Makes me glad I'm hanging in FFXIV.
  • red_cruiserred_cruiser Member UncommonPosts: 484
    Mythic 10 would be great. The Heart of Azeroth should have featured one baseline new ability, similar to the powers that were unlocked by the Artifacts.
  • Gobstopper3DGobstopper3D Member RarePosts: 842
    edited October 2018

    Pemmin said:

    SBFord said:

    It's a bad practice for things like narrative to change at the whims of angry players when player choice in questing and narrative was never a design philosophy of this game.   If this has signalled a move towards a new lore and narrative system that encouraged player agency, that would be great.  It doesn't appear to be a paradigm shift, but simply weak-kneed devs or a product they lack faith in.  Neither of those are good signs.

    Adding those will not functionally change the story at the end. I think they do have an overarching story with a prescribed end. 

    Know what's funny? So many of the things that have happened that make literally NO sense whatsoever would have been more understandable had the Alliance attacked Undercity first, with Horde reacting that led to the burning of Teldrassil. Narratively, if you look at the story as it is now with a different start to the conflict, things are somewhat more palatable. 

    I honestly believe that that was the original narrative that the dev team "chickened out on" because they were afraid of backlash from the Allies community. 

    I also think that they really believed that the majority of the Horde would be totally down with the whole "muh honer" Saurfang narrative and that they are surprised that many simply are not. "We obviously know that hasn't been as easy a transition as they thought (or liked). So it feels like, in an attempt to make players turn against the current Horde, they've just submerged the entire narrative in a river of sh!t to try and dislodge Sylvanas loyalists." 

    nah the sylvanas being self serving narrative has been around since wc3 but has taken a back seat to more important plot lines because it was a pretty shallow narrative even in the beginning. Id say its more of dev team grasping a straws to justify the faction conflict when the world has almost ended like 4 times now. 

    the alliance couldn't have started the conflict because Anduin is too much of a mary sue and graymane would be trying to reclaim Glineas not Undercity. Everyone with any real connection to Lordaeron has been undeaded or dead at this point. That being said sylanas's reason for the burning of teldrassil doesn't make much sense either ..... because of the existence of portal magic.

    also everyone likes Saurfang….even the alliance view him in a favorable light.

    I agree on the Sylvanas take. It's Blizz fault that they never really portrayed her until now as she really is, at least in the books and lore. They also took one of the people the horde could point their finger at an say, "look at her, she isn't all that good" and I'm talking about Jaina. Blizz gave her an awesome story of redemption and forgiveness. Her story has some of the best in-game cinematics blizz has ever done (imo).

    I would say that as far as story goes, it's early yet, give it a chance to unfold. I think a redemption is coming for Sylvanas and Genn Greymane will become the new Jaina for the Horde. As far as everything else in BFA. It's probably the worst I have seen yet. I will come back to wow once 8.1 drops. At least long enough to play through the new story content.

    I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.

  • gamergoddess40gamergoddess40 Member UncommonPosts: 17
    are they still making people pay to play this
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,011
    In my opinion, there is no answer for how to fix WoW.  Claiming the downfall is sharding, crossrealm, or LFG, story failing, catering to casuals, LFR, etc...are all just our opinions.  
    Nope it is not an Opinion.  Its the FACTS.   MMORPGS NEVER were meant to cater to the Single Player 30 a minute a week gamer.   They are too dam expensive and the ONLY way to make a profit off these games when they are not Time Sinks based around Group content is to turn the game into P2W or Slot machine type games.   This is FACT the problem is Everyone who does not get this does not want to admit the truth.   MMORPGS take a lot of money to make and keep running, casual play where players dont want to sink their life into the game end up shutting down because their is no money in casual play were people sub a few months a year or throw $15 to $30 at F2P games per year will not make a profit past a short period of time.    

    The Only way to make a Successful MMORPG that has very good and stable subscription numbers is by making people work for what they want in the game.  YES Vanilla WOW did this.  It took you 6 months to reach max level if you didnt power level for a month.   It took you months to gear up, months to raid, get your mount, you didnt run Dungeons all the time.   The games took time to get to where you wanted to go then.   

    Why do you think I maybe spent around $200 total in the last 5 years in MMORPG Subscriptions?   Because they are not worth more than playing for a month or 2 at a time.   This is because its made for Casual players that would be better spent playing a game like LOL or HOTS.  

  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,011

    Devs have grown very very fearful of putting in "groups only" content anywhere but endgame.  LFG dungeon queueing is merely a bid to make the group only content accessible enough for solo players to experience it without actually having to change anything about how they engage with the game, despite the devs knowing full well they have a wall waiting for that player once said player hits cap.  LFG brought its own consequences, and I'm not convinced, as far as the quality of group content and experiences are concerned, that those group funders are a net gain.
    No.   Group Finders are not a Net Gain.   Players today tend to stay away from grouping now at all cost because these Automated Group Finders end up being nothing more than a Toxic mess.   Group Finders dont belong in MMORPGS period.  Yea you can have a group finder tool so players can post what they are looking for, but automated tools do not belong.   
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,011
    danwest58 said:
    It boils down to the fact that WOW kept trying to make everyone happy. They wanted to make 15 minute weekend warriors happy with casual no effort content and hardcore raiders happy. In the end no one ended up happy and the game is ruined because of it. NO you cannot Save the game, the game itself is past its prime. Yes Classic will get Subscriptions back on blizzards books but it will not save Blizzards' MMORPG development at this time period.

    Classic will have more subscriptions than Retail WOW will here after about a year. Why is that? Because Retail WOW while it was casual at the time back in 2004, it didnt try to make everyone happy and it was a TRUE MMORPG which required teamwork to see the content. MMORPGS CANNOT be for the casual I pick up the game for 20 minute then put it down crowd. You Either A dedicate time to the game and expect to see content over the course of months and years or B you dont play the game. The Current Treadmill of MMORPGS Proves the point I have been making for the last what 10 years. MMORPGS are never going to be successful being a casual place for everyone to play 3 to 5 hours a month and make money. Yes you can have a few games like this but no they are not going to be a strong subscription based game that makes a good profit. Games that are casual boxes have to sucker your stupid ass into slot machine games to be profitable and its only for a short period of time. Look at Trion and what happens when you make the games P2W and slot machines. Their are defunct now and out of business.

    What Blizzard needs to do is go back to the drawing board. Come up with a new MMORPG IP and make that MMORPG that requires players to spend months leveling, and playing with other people NO LFD/LFR shit, have class that YES are in balanced some and yes some classes will be better at certain aspects of the game then others. Why do you think Games like Pantheon and Ashes of Creation have a lot of people focusing on them? Because they do not appeal nor should that appeal to EVERYONE. MMORPGs by design should ONLY appeal to people who enjoy the journey of leveling, making friends and playing with friends and YES content taking months to play. You cannot make a Single Player MMORPG and have it be successful. The last 10 years proved what I have been saying for a long time now.

    Just watch videos from Asmongold, Bellular, Nixxiom and Tips about classic WOW and why MMORPGS fail. They prove the point I been saying for years and they are finally talking about how MMORPGS need to be a in-depth game that people want to waste their life in. Sorry people who want to play 1 hour a week and get everything as everyone else. MMORPGS do not work this way. How is it that a Divorced father of 2, who works 50 hours a week, workout another 6 hours a week has his kids near 50% of the time, goes fishing hangs out with friends and still can play games 5 to 10 hours a week when I feel like it? Because I make time and understand time management. So people who have lives cannot complain endlessly about not having time to play.
    This post nailed it! People that still play the game really have a hard time coming to grips with this. The fact that BFA stinks really laid bare how bad the game has become. 

    WoW was always a casual MMO, but their hellish focus on trying to cater to players that can't sink more than a few 30 min play sessions a week kind of killed the game for a lot of people. 
    Yep.  Exactly.   And I do feel for players that cant play but an hour or 2 a week.  BUT that does not mean you ruin a game for these players.   During TBC I couldnt play much for about 2 months.  My best friend at the time his mother was dealing with cancer so when I was not working or doing my classwork for my 3 classes I was hanging out with him.   I put WOW down for those 2 months and lived life. When I came back I picked right back where I left off and enjoyed the content I played.   I didnt beg Blizzard to change the game for me because I paid $15 a month.  No I went to take care of life.  
  • SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,126
    edited October 2018
    danwest58 said:

    The Only way to make a Successful MMORPG that has very good and stable subscription numbers is by making people work for what they want in the game.  YES Vanilla WOW did this.  It took you 6 months to reach max level if you didnt power level for a month.   It took you months to gear up, months to raid, get your mount, you didnt run Dungeons all the time.   The games took time to get to where you wanted to go then.   
    Well, even if WoW is dying, it's going out about a decade after it should have, so your ideas don't seem to jibe with the truth. Of course there are a lot less players playing it. There are more sophisticated games with better graphics and a totally different type of gameplay. Honestly, WoW's generation of MMOs is dead, or has at least split into two distinct camps: Themepark and Sandbox. 

    Also, don't forget that it's still making a LOT of money for Blizzard. 

    BfA is hastening the decline because it's poorly designed, not because of the "needed" addition of even more grind (aka "working for") to get neat stuff. It's got a terrible story. Classes are designed poorly that make some completely unusable in ANY group configuration let alone solo. And those are just two issues that have to do with design philosophy that, no matter how many of the things on your "must have list were included, would still be killing the game.

    You have a preference, we get that by your triple post. But what you believe is the cause of the decline of WoW is not, in my opinion, even close. 10 years ago? Maybe. Now? Nuh uh.
    Post edited by SBFord on


  • RasiemRasiem Member UncommonPosts: 316
    Games gonna die, they have no idea what there doing and have way to much to backtrack on now. Legion artifacts had to take place of the lost talents and missing spells, now azurite has to replace lost talents, missing spells, AND artifacts. Next they will need to come up with a system to replace lost talents, missing spells, artifacts, and Azurite. Its a total shit show and fundamentally flawed.
  • samooryesordsamooryesord Member UncommonPosts: 70
    All they have to do is add player housing.
  • CazrielCazriel Member UncommonPosts: 419
    When it's all written down like that, the mess Blizzard made with BfA is truly awe-inspiring.

    At this point, they may have to pull a Dallas, and have everyone wake up and realize the entire expansion was a bad dream.

  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 841
    He'll never live down, "You think you do, but you don't." Ever! Even if he were to 180 the game & break its old peak sub #'s...

    Gut Out!

    What, me worry?

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,753
    "The classes and specializations feel like they have been stripped to the bare minimum to match the developers’ vision for how each is “supposed” to be played."

    No, this is the never ending drive to easy mode in MMOs, that is the only "vision" at play here.

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,753

    Oscillate said:




    Getting us out of bed in the morning can be difficult mate, be you a young teen or creaky oldster. :)

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • LinifLinif Member UncommonPosts: 136
    2 key areas for me:

    Make Classes more complex, they're currently brain-dead rotations and priorities that somewhat run on RNG for that extra shot of excitement once in a while. Legendaries started going in the right direction by changing up rotations and priorities, but the bad outweighed the good and it was a terrible system that never achieved it's potential. Right now, I change a talent and move something up or down the list in terms of my priorities. It's not interactive enough.

    Give some real attention to progression. Right now it feels excessively hollow. I can't even get a kick out of raiding with my friends anymore, nothing feels like I'm really progressing in the grand scheme of things. Key areas of progression no longer exist or are just handed to you on a silver platter. Does anyone remember attunement? I 'memba.
  • GarySevenGarySeven Member UncommonPosts: 14
    The saddest thing for me is that I thought the lore was going to be a return to the core Warcraft universe lore that made Warcraft 3 and WoW the great games that they were. Blizzard has completely missed an opportunity to return to the lore that made the Warcraft universe interesting to begin with.

    Regarding leveling, tThe lack of any skill/talent upgrades each level makes a senseless activity. The only goal is to get to max so you can then grind world quest and rep. Really? They're just daily quests by another name.

    Reaching max level during WotLK took a significant effort. In guild I managed at the time you were rewarded with an Epic item when you got to max. Hitting max level actually meant something.

    Today's WoW doesn't take any effort at all. And there are too many areas to fix for the game to have any semblance of what it once was.

    RIP, WoW.
  • DeyirnDeyirn Member UncommonPosts: 459
    Nothing can be changed that will make things better. The game has been a dumbed-down garbage since Cataclysm and now plays like a Farmville/Pokemon where you log in to do a bunch of little stupid tasks and collect skins, mounts, pokemons and whatnot...

    WoW is dead, not because there aren't players playing it, but because it's not the game it started out to be. Before it was about adventuring in the world, playing with friends, watching your character get stronger when you loot a green sword and replace your white sword, now it's about shiny cosmetics and collecting tons of mounts. There is no substance to the game and whoever plays retail now, I want to tell them that they are wasting their money and their time on a souless garbage of a game. And that they would better invest their time if they play on a private server on a version between Vanilla and WoTLK, and if they're bored of those, they better find a new game.

    Right now ESO is way better than the garbage WoW, and if you don't count the world population of millions including China, because if we count the world population of Lineage 1 and Lineage 2 including China, Lineage has 30-40 million players where WoW has 5 million players worldwide and if you subtract China, there are about 1 million or less in the west, so basically WoW has around or less players than FF14 and ESO.

  • RukushinRukushin Member UncommonPosts: 302
    I would definitely bet that WoW has less active subs than FFXIV. So many have switched from WoW to FFXIV. We are all just waiting for the next thing, but I think the nail has already been put to the WoW coffin. Tehre is not coming back from this and no changes that can be made will save BFA. Let WoW die with what little dignity it has left. 
  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Member UncommonPosts: 1,229

    OH OH I know Pick ME!

    They need an ESO style review and fixing crew to come through and fix the problems.

    They need to start with the armor problems.

    Then they need to fix the class specs they have ignored in order to rush out the expansion.

    There are serious holes in the design of many specs in classes that have been neglected for far too long!

    They need features such as housing and house decorating.

    They could add a whole new series of things to the game such as event items that could be placed in the house which could be linked to special events in the game like the battle of the lich king. They could also add to several already existing craft systems, the ability to make furniture decorations and lighting.

    They need to add a group that give rewards to the dungeoneers and raiders for raiding such as the dauntless in ESO.

    We need mounted combat.

    We need glider mounts or flying mounts given glider abilities in zones that you have to earn flying in.

    Additionally I totally agree with these:


    Profession bonuses (belt buckles, leatherworker-only enchants, specific upgrades, etc.)

    Enchants for most of the gear

    Secondary stats

    Glyphs that changed how abilities work (cosmetic glyphs still remain)

    Tier sets & PvP vendors

    We need ALOT of updates to this game to make it a modern game.

    But do the devs listen to their playerbase?! nope!

    I got onto one of the support people in reddit and twitter because they claimed that posting the wow forums would make a difference. I pointed out the sheer years of being ignored by the developers in the forum, which makes them liars.

    Its funny, what I get from your comment is more RPG aspects being placed back in the MMO. And I whole heartily agree. Outside of all the surface problems we are mentioning here, at its core WoW is moving away from being an RPG where you progress a character with options to customize more into a generic action-based MMO.

    ESO is a great example of having RPG concepts in an MMO, but its fundamentally different from how MMOs started way back in the 90s. To really have RPG concepts in an MMO (today) means essentially making levels meaningless (more a milestone of progression versus a growth in actual power), horizontal progression (linear progression cannibalizes itself by having ever increasing power which requires ever increasing mobs -- it doesnt scale in the game), scaling (which people seem to REALLY hate because they don't *feel* strong when they actually are), and world content (the idea of consolidating each expansion into one small concentrated area while ignorning the rest of the world is a waste). The idea of leveling up through gated zones, only to get to max level and run raids over and over and over until the next expansion is boring. THAT would make me quit. Endgame should be taking part in whatever I find fun and being able to progress that at my own pace.

    The people who started with WoW don't like the new evolved progression of WoW (and MMOs in general). I don't think this will ever change, especially since I believe there are more people willing to play the current iteration of WoW (with obvious improvements) over the older iteration (which also is viable). That is why Classic WoW makes so much sense. It gives an option for those who love WoW (and what it was) to go back to exactly what they loved and leave the retail game for those who like where the game is going.

    I currently have 0 issues (that would make me so mad that I'd have to speak up about it) with BfA and slowly loving it more than Legion (which was my favorite expansion). There is so much for me to do giving me options at each play session I have. While at the same time I have long term goals I can work against. Im excited for 8.1 and 8.2, but especially excited for what I heard they are doing for the new endgame island in 8.2 (bringing in concepts from timeless isle, and other past content to increase replayability).

    I'm sorry that so many people are hating BfA - but I don't see it going back to what it once was and see Blizzard actually pressing forward on the path they are now.

  • redcoreredcore Member UncommonPosts: 91
    People kept feeding Blizz with ideas for years . Nothing ever happened because Blizz just dont care. Pinnacle of WoW was BC + Wotlk. After that (because they had to change what worked) everything went to shit. Solution is simple. Get back to what worked. BC+ Wotlk.
  • RawizRawiz Member UncommonPosts: 549
    edited November 2018
    For some reason Blizz loves to re-invent the wheel with every single expansion. Legion was generally well received - from my guilds' perspective - raiders kept playing up until Nighthold. That is 3 raid instances of money spent. After Nighthold there was a break for the entire guild until summer when Tomb of Sargeras came out - raid team came back. Legendary items RNG was bullshit, but it was still tolerable.

    Now we have done Heroic G'huun twice and our raiders stopped playing. This was well over a month ago now. The fact there's no class specific armor sets to collect cheapens the entire purpose of raiding now. You can just chain-spam mythic+ and get everything expect azerite pieces. Even then those 385 azerite pieces can drop from your weekly chest and that azerite system has bad luck protection.

    This expansion was pushed out early to meet stockholders demands of gain. It is not about making the game better or fresh. It's about a fucking loot casino.

    I feel this will be another abandoned expansion like Warlords of Draenor was. After that there was a good expansion, so hope the same happens now.

    Also fire Ion and devolore.

Sign In or Register to comment.