One thing that I will always find eerie though is that there are no MMORPGs for role-players and intelligent gamers...
KYLE> I disagree, we have long had EVE available.
It would have been interesting to see an MMORPG with solid foundational principles that refused to change, but judging from the fact that that never happened or even came close to happening, these games were far, far too expensive from the beginning.
If any company ever came close it is CCP and EVE. The game's core design pretty much has remained the same for its entire run, for better or worse.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well look here. Are you a spokesman for World of Warcraft? My post wasn't philosophical. I'm not going to play a bad game. "Life" isn't the machinations of large companies. Blizzard is a dumpsite for peasants paychecks, I couldn't care less about this disreputable company. https://www.wolfsheadonline.com/ dedicated many years of blogging to chastising them for their errors, as have other bloggers. tobolds.blogspot.com/ is another blogger that has renounced MMORPGs. There is a general trend of literate adults running far, far away from these games. And we're speaking of a game (both Tobold and Wolfshead played WoW) that was made 14 years ago. Methinks you are picking your own flavor of change for the purposes...14 years of change in a 14 year old MMORPG, or wouldn't change be playing a new MMORPG rather than the same one for 14 years, or shouldn't the new MMORPGs themselves be changing, rather than copying the same thing that World of Warcraft did 14 years ago?
One thing that I will always find eerie though is that there are no MMORPGs for role-players and intelligent gamers...
KYLE> I disagree, we have long had EVE available.
It would have been interesting to see an MMORPG with solid foundational principles that refused to change, but judging from the fact that that never happened or even came close to happening, these games were far, far too expensive from the beginning.
If any company ever came close it is CCP and EVE. The game's core design pretty much has remained the same for its entire run, for better or worse.
There are other companies I'm sure. I know of games like Salem, Tale in the Desert, Wurm Online, etc., but they aren't good games. Not at all challenging, no consequences or danger, boring gameplay. Any MMORPG without the kind of gameplay of the early MMORPGs like Meridian 59, Everquest, and Lineage, seems to be unredeemably easy and boring. But I'll go look at some videos of EVE now and see.
Hmm. I think the best contrast between good game design and bad in these kinds of games is between Arena and Daggerfall on one hand, and Morrowind on the other. Salem, Wurm Online, Tale in the Desert, EVE Online, all seem to me like Morrowind. Even though you can save and load in Daggerfall and Arena, I remember some very challenging and exciting experiences. I suppose the online games that were contemporary with Arena and Daggerfall were all text though (and Meridian 59). I have played very few RPGs after Daggerfall. That was one of the last games without voice acting or digitized graphics. It was becoming very common by 1998. For a while I thought online games were the future of games, and nearly stopped playing my Playstation 2 and PC. Everquest has a definite dignity that games like Lands of Lore 2, Baldur's Gate, and Might & Magic VI didn't. Same with Final Fantasy XI compared to X.
One thing that I will always find eerie though is that there are no MMORPGs for role-players and intelligent gamers...
KYLE> I disagree, we have long had EVE available.
It would have been interesting to see an MMORPG with solid foundational principles that refused to change, but judging from the fact that that never happened or even came close to happening, these games were far, far too expensive from the beginning.
If any company ever came close it is CCP and EVE. The game's core design pretty much has remained the same for its entire run, for better or worse.
I have often wondered why people view being assholes as "Roleplay".
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Well look here. Are you a spokesman for World of Warcraft? My post wasn't philosophical. I'm not going to play a bad game. "Life" isn't the machinations of large companies. Blizzard is a dumpsite for peasants paychecks, I couldn't care less about this disreputable company. https://www.wolfsheadonline.com/ dedicated many years of blogging to chastising them for their errors, as have other bloggers. tobolds.blogspot.com/ is another blogger that has renounced MMORPGs. There is a general trend of literate adults running far, far away from these games. And we're speaking of a game (both Tobold and Wolfshead played WoW) that was made 14 years ago. Methinks you are picking your own flavor of change for the purposes...14 years of change in a 14 year old MMORPG, or wouldn't change be playing a new MMORPG rather than the same one for 14 years, or shouldn't the new MMORPGs themselves be changing, rather than copying the same thing that World of Warcraft did 14 years ago?
Interesting you know Tobold, he was a guildie of mine for quite some time, a very nice guy actually, we played WoW together. And I wasn't philosophical, change is part of everything, how you deal with that is up to you, you give some suggestions yourself. Thinking one is superior to the other is silly though, that is for each individual to decide. Changing that what is is much more difficult however then changing from one thing to a completely new thing.
Tobold, now that is a name I haven't heard in a while, at least that put a smile on my face.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Throughout this thread there is a bit of a mixing up on what different posters definition of this change.
I think in my opinion it is necessary to clarify the difference of the type of changes to a game.
I think change to storyline or content to a game, that's a good thing. That adds stuff for players to explore and invest time in.
However, I think change on core mechanics of a game is bad. WoW has this problem a little bit where they seems to keep changing the combat mechanics to remove some element that is more challenging. Though they did do good on maintaining the core aspects of the class mechanics.
And then for an absolutely bad example, there was a MOBA called Paragon where they completing stuffed it up by changing every aspect of the core mechanics and make every players from vets to newbies to have to learn everything again.
I think for vets of a mmo, it is never fun if they force you to relearn something that you are already familiar with.
People play games for fun. They don't want to spend every living hour having to relearn everything when there is a little change. You gotta let vets feels like vets (ie. knows more than new players), otherwise what's the point of them sticking with your mmo for long term?
Throughout this thread there is a bit of a mixing up on what different posters definition of this change.
I think in my opinion it is necessary to clarify the difference of the type of changes to a game.
I think change to storyline or content to a game, that's a good thing. That adds stuff for players to explore and invest time in.
However, I think change on core mechanics of a game is bad. WoW has this problem a little bit where they seems to keep changing the combat mechanics to remove some element that is more challenging. Though they did do good on maintaining the core aspects of the class mechanics.
And then for an absolutely bad example, there was a MOBA called Paragon where they completing stuffed it up by changing every aspect of the core mechanics and make every players from vets to newbies to have to learn everything again.
I think for vets of a mmo, it is never fun if they force you to relearn something that you are already familiar with.
People play games for fun. They don't want to spend every living hour having to relearn everything when there is a little change. You gotta let vets feels like vets (ie. knows more than new players), otherwise what's the point of them sticking with your mmo for long term?
This is a solid point.. revising core mechanics or changing them is very risky. Case in point, GW2 opted to change the core way the game worked with Heart of Thorns, by revising the Trait lines, which totally changed how a class played.
They did this to change the very nature of the game from all self sufficient classes to role based classes, which I think gutted the game play.
Some people obviously loved it, as the game is still doing quite well, just like obviously millions of people loved the changes that WoW made.. and millions hated them.
So I have to agree with you here, that revising the core game play of a game is a very risky move., even if done somewhat well, it still as you put it, changes the game for the existing players so they need to re-learn the game and how it works, and that is simply not something players want to do after they are years into the game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There are other companies I'm sure. I know of games like Salem, Tale in the Desert, Wurm Online, etc., but they aren't good games. Not at all challenging, no consequences or danger, boring gameplay. Any MMORPG without the kind of gameplay of the early MMORPGs like Meridian 59, Everquest, and Lineage, seems to be unredeemably easy and boring. But I'll go look at some videos of EVE now and see.
Tobold, now that is a name I haven't heard in a while, at least that put a smile on my face.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I think in my opinion it is necessary to clarify the difference of the type of changes to a game.
I think change to storyline or content to a game, that's a good thing. That adds stuff for players to explore and invest time in.
However, I think change on core mechanics of a game is bad. WoW has this problem a little bit where they seems to keep changing the combat mechanics to remove some element that is more challenging. Though they did do good on maintaining the core aspects of the class mechanics.
And then for an absolutely bad example, there was a MOBA called Paragon where they completing stuffed it up by changing every aspect of the core mechanics and make every players from vets to newbies to have to learn everything again.
I think for vets of a mmo, it is never fun if they force you to relearn something that you are already familiar with.
People play games for fun. They don't want to spend every living hour having to relearn everything when there is a little change. You gotta let vets feels like vets (ie. knows more than new players), otherwise what's the point of them sticking with your mmo for long term?
They did this to change the very nature of the game from all self sufficient classes to role based classes, which I think gutted the game play.
Some people obviously loved it, as the game is still doing quite well, just like obviously millions of people loved the changes that WoW made.. and millions hated them.
So I have to agree with you here, that revising the core game play of a game is a very risky move., even if done somewhat well, it still as you put it, changes the game for the existing players so they need to re-learn the game and how it works, and that is simply not something players want to do after they are years into the game.