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The end of Hardcore Gamers

deadtrackdeadtrack Member UncommonPosts: 56
History:
Many of the older games where initially designed to last for years of progression without many barriers.  Asheron's Call was one of the best examples of this in history.  It was not feasible to obtain the maximum level, stats, etc upon release.  It was designed properly so new content would expand allow for faster growth, but at a managed level that wasn't manipulated.

It truly allowed an "Infinite progression system"

Today's system are not designed this way.  They increase the level caps, instant level, put in a gear treadmill and straight out manipulate everything.  The gear becomes obsolete, new hard caps are quickly reached and it's a very faulty design.

One of the worst aspects is: Direct Manipulation
Black Desert Online is one of the worst offenders of this, but I have seen it in many games.  It can be done in a variety of ways.  BDO simply makes a level 60 for example cost 60 Million exp.

For simple math lets say that takes 1,000 hours.
  • In a well designed natural system updates, new equipment/creatures etc would make it easier to obtain.  So a player might be able to achieve that in 950 hours instead.  This is a normal part of game updates and age
  • Manipulation: What BDO has done on MANY occasions is not only release higher content, but change the game rules so it now takes 20 Million Exp in addition to the updates.  Then a few updates later change it to 5 million.
This results in the complete destruction of months/years worth of work over time.  What Hardcore grinders spent 1,000's of hours on can now be obtained in a few hours.  It destroys the entire point of investing into the game.

I saw a flashback video on a game that stated it took months of hardcore grinding to get level 50, and now it's less than 6 hours.

That is NOT how the games where designed many years ago.  They where worth investing a lot of time into, but today there is a huge risk in a lot of games that everything you do will simply be wiped away in a few updates.
ScotGdemami

Comments

  • AmatheAmathe Member EpicPosts: 4,677
    This seems more like the end of hardcore games than an end to hardcore gamers.
    klash2def

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,471
    Sounds like you're saying hardcore games no longer exist. 

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • RoguewizRoguewiz Member UncommonPosts: 683
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't WOW also reduce the amount of XP required for the levels below that of a new expansion to push players into said expansion?  They've been doing that since forever (On a side note, I don't recall Everquest ever doing that in it's heyday)

    Time Investiture =/= Hardcore, It is just an archaic belief that players will take a while to clear your content.  This inherently always fails, so now you're penalizing those that don't play 8+ hrs a day.  Gaming is not a job (well, to be correct, it isn't as long as you aren't a professional gamer)

    Risk does indeed equal hardcore (to me).   I will agree that risk is basically gone from most games.  You occasionally get an annoying death penalty or a big repair cost, but that is it.

    Just to be fair, the inherent problem is that since most games are:
    A) Level Based
    B) Gear acquisition as a primary driver
    C) Themepark

    You want your players to purchase your new content/expansion.  Thus obsoleting out gear so the new stuff is enticing AND making leveling easier so they can reach that content, is well...good business sense.

    Raquelis in various games
    Played: Everything
    Playing: League of Legends, anything Dark Souls-like, Hearthstone, DDO
    Wants: The World
    Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon

    Tank - Healer - Support: The REAL Trinity
  • ScotScot Member EpicPosts: 10,609
    edited August 2018
    Amathe said:
    This seems more like the end of hardcore games than an end to hardcore gamers.
    True, but if you have fewer and fewer hard core games what are teens playing that will let them know that such games exist. Easy mode has been the norm for so many years now that has become their average level of difficulty. Would anyone say that most teens understand what hardcore is? How long before we are asking that of most people in their twenties, indeed is that not already a valid question?
    SedrynTyros

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  • deadtrackdeadtrack Member UncommonPosts: 56
    Roguewiz said:
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't WOW also reduce the amount of XP required for the levels below that of a new expansion to push players into said expansion?  They've been doing that since forever (On a side note, I don't recall Everquest ever doing that in it's heyday)

    Time Investiture =/= Hardcore, It is just an archaic belief that players will take a while to clear your content.  This inherently always fails, so now you're penalizing those that don't play 8+ hrs a day.  Gaming is not a job (well, to be correct, it isn't as long as you aren't a professional gamer)

    Risk does indeed equal hardcore (to me).   I will agree that risk is basically gone from most games.  You occasionally get an annoying death penalty or a big repair cost, but that is it.

    Just to be fair, the inherent problem is that since most games are:
    A) Level Based
    B) Gear acquisition as a primary driver
    C) Themepark

    You want your players to purchase your new content/expansion.  Thus obsoleting out gear so the new stuff is enticing AND making leveling easier so they can reach that content, is well...good business sense.
    The term hardcore can be used in a lot of different contexts.  It's just a helpful term used for description.  As long as people are on the same page/context it's fine.

    If you said a game was hardcore PVP and full loot, I would have a pretty good idea of what that environment would be.

    If you said a hardcore gamer just reached level (x) it would be the proper use as well.

    I don't agree with people trying to claim they can't compete or any no lifer statements.  If the game is designed correctly it's the players responsibility to play at their own pace, enjoy the game, and accept their ranking/placement in the game.

    If I was rank 12,490 in an MMO by level or gear score, I would be fine with that.  As long as it's a fair environment.  (No hacking, cheats, bots, cash shop adv etc)
  • deadtrackdeadtrack Member UncommonPosts: 56
    edited August 2018
    Amathe said:
    This seems more like the end of hardcore games than an end to hardcore gamers.
    It's about their relationship and the trap for a hardcore gamer to invest so much time.  I watched a player excel above everyone for nearly 2 years in a game long ago.  One update changed everything and half the server was his level or higher a few weeks later.  It's really a shame to see that happen.

    Players should be aware and fight back against games doing this if they want to protect the effort put forth in these games.  For those who prefer a quicker paced game there are plenty with level caps, faster leveling, etc.  For those who want a long term investment MMO this should be sacred.

    RexKushmanScot
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member EpicPosts: 3,273
    History:

    These online games were designed back during a time when they had little competition. Never ending fantasy vistas were fine then when most gamers could devote a significant amount of time to this particular form of entertainment.

    Now:

    Today all that shit has changed. These days consumers are bombarded with a plethora of entertainment choices of every entertainment type on just about ever technical device they own.
    Its little wonder these time consuming, NOT difficult, types of game have been lost to posterity. Lost like the echo of whale song in the busy hubbub of the modern technical ocean.


    “I was, in days gone by, a believer. But, alas, I came to this beleaguered land and the God in me just … evaporated. Let us change our toast, then, to the God that has forgotten us.”

  • deadtrackdeadtrack Member UncommonPosts: 56
    edited August 2018
    History:

    These online games were designed back during a time when they had little competition. Never ending fantasy vistas were fine then when most gamers could devote a significant amount of time to this particular form of entertainment.

    Now:

    Today all that shit has changed. These days consumers are bombarded with a plethora of entertainment choices of every entertainment type on just about ever technical device they own.
    Its little wonder these time consuming, NOT difficult, types of game have been lost to posterity. Lost like the echo of whale song in the busy hubbub of the modern technical ocean.
    There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.  The highlight of WOW for many was back when progression was tough.  The "Vanilla" stage for games often holds the best memories.

    A true solid MMO can still have a life span of 5-20 years.  It won't necessarily be outdated and older games often have more content as they have been in continual development for years.

    The difficult and progression are 2 separate issues.  I'm all for having tougher content where you're intended to die by harsh PVE environments.  I'm all for challenge and minor set backs in death.

    That can fully work in conjunction with a game that is designed to last 100,000 hours.  With the proper scaling and formulas behind it this can be achieved.  It's not a requirement to play for 1,000's of hours to enjoy the content or participate.  The game should simply provide content for all levels.

    A good example was Tibia's level 999 door.  It was opened for years and certainly wasn't necessary.  It was just a bonus for anyone able to achieve it.  The same for the toughest raids in FF.  They are not meant to be defeated by a large portion of the player base.

    In a well constructed game you should be enjoying level 2 just as much as level 200.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,277
    If Hardcore games die, it is because Hardcore players don't play Hardcore Games, and has nothing to do with anyone else.
    Currently Playing Eternal Crusade, because no matter who wins, a bunch of cheaters lost.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,387
     Just logged out of Eve .. set Training fo the nite ............ Loggin into UO :)
    Scotkitarad
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member EpicPosts: 3,273
    edited August 2018
    deadtrack said:
    History:

    These online games were designed back during a time when they had little competition. Never ending fantasy vistas were fine then when most gamers could devote a significant amount of time to this particular form of entertainment.

    Now:

    Today all that shit has changed. These days consumers are bombarded with a plethora of entertainment choices of every entertainment type on just about ever technical device they own.
    Its little wonder these time consuming, NOT difficult, types of game have been lost to posterity. Lost like the echo of whale song in the busy hubbub of the modern technical ocean.
    There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.  The highlight of WOW for many was back when progression was tough.  The "Vanilla" stage for games often holds the best memories.

    A true solid MMO can still have a life span of 5-20 years.  It won't necessarily be outdated and older games often have more content as they have been in continual development for years.

    The difficult and progression are 2 separate issues.  I'm all for having tougher content where you're intended to die by harsh PVE environments.  I'm all for challenge and minor set backs in death.

    That can fully work in conjunction with a game that is designed to last 100,000 hours.  With the proper scaling and formulas behind it this can be achieved.  It's not a requirement to play for 1,000's of hours to enjoy the content or participate.  The game should simply provide content for all levels.

    A good example was Tibia's level 999 door.  It was opened for years and certainly wasn't necessary.  It was just a bonus for anyone able to achieve it.  The same for the toughest raids in FF.  They are not meant to be defeated by a large portion of the player base.

    In a well constructed game you should be enjoying level 2 just as much as level 200.
    And I'm going to disagree and cite relevant examples of why I disagree with you. Today's easy mode Wow just made record sales with their newest expansion. With the exception of Wow any hard core MMORPGs still around are languishing near death. Wildstar who built their game around the idea of the hardcore gamer was a total flop, and no amount of attempted revivals have done a thing to change that. Its also funny you bring up Tibia. Released at a time when there weren't many other choices and the top three player bases were in Brazil, Poland, and Sweden. Hardly the mainstream MMORPG circuit.

    As to the rest of your ideas of what an MMORPG should or has to be, all I can ask you there is why aren't they still being made that way?
    Post edited by MisterZebub on


    “I was, in days gone by, a believer. But, alas, I came to this beleaguered land and the God in me just … evaporated. Let us change our toast, then, to the God that has forgotten us.”

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Member RarePosts: 5,484
    If hardcore games were profitable they would dominate the market. There will always be a few but you can't fight the demographic realities. People have alternatives and they're choosing them. 
    Gdemami

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • ElidienElidien Member RarePosts: 1,343
    I have always thought of hardcore as a description of the gaming style. Any game can be played as hardcore. Its like saying you are a hardcore fan. Take Skyrim. Straight forward game that I would not describe a hardcore but I know people that approached it as such.

    Hardcore is a no holds barred, kick butt take names mentality to me. I know some hardcore Candy Crush players! I know guilds that are hardcore with WOW but I am not. To me, its more the approach to the game than the game itself.
    immodium
  • ScotScot Member EpicPosts: 10,609
    edited August 2018
    deadtrack said:
    History:

    These online games were designed back during a time when they had little competition. Never ending fantasy vistas were fine then when most gamers could devote a significant amount of time to this particular form of entertainment.

    Now:

    Today all that shit has changed. These days consumers are bombarded with a plethora of entertainment choices of every entertainment type on just about ever technical device they own.
    Its little wonder these time consuming, NOT difficult, types of game have been lost to posterity. Lost like the echo of whale song in the busy hubbub of the modern technical ocean.
    There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.  The highlight of WOW for many was back when progression was tough.  The "Vanilla" stage for games often holds the best memories.

    A true solid MMO can still have a life span of 5-20 years.  It won't necessarily be outdated and older games often have more content as they have been in continual development for years.

    The difficult and progression are 2 separate issues.  I'm all for having tougher content where you're intended to die by harsh PVE environments.  I'm all for challenge and minor set backs in death.

    That can fully work in conjunction with a game that is designed to last 100,000 hours.  With the proper scaling and formulas behind it this can be achieved.  It's not a requirement to play for 1,000's of hours to enjoy the content or participate.  The game should simply provide content for all levels.

    A good example was Tibia's level 999 door.  It was opened for years and certainly wasn't necessary.  It was just a bonus for anyone able to achieve it.  The same for the toughest raids in FF.  They are not meant to be defeated by a large portion of the player base.

    In a well constructed game you should be enjoying level 2 just as much as level 200.
    And I'm going to disagree and cite relevant examples of why I disagree with you. Today's easy mode Wow just made record sales with their newest expansion. With the exception of Wow any hard core MMORPGs still around are languishing near death. Wildstar who built their game around the idea of the hardcore gamer was a total flop, and no amount of attempted revivals have done a thing to change that. Its also funny you bring up Tibia. Released at a time when there weren't many other choices and the top three player bases were in Brazil, Poland, and Sweden. Hardly the mainstream MMORPG circuit.

    As to the rest of your ideas of what an MMORPG should or has to be, all I can ask you there is why aren't they still being made that way?
    Gaming used cater for young guys with a hardcore mentality, they wanted competition, they wanted it tough and achieving had nothing to do with pings and little virtual medals. You can still see them at the likes of LoL tournaments, not a particularly hardcore game but then modern hardcore is a rarity. But just like roleplayers they were eaten alive by the bigger customer base gaming companies have always striven for.

    You are not the only poster to ask why are they still not being made the same way, well when you chase a different, larger player base what the smaller one wants becomes redundant. Gaming companies chasing mobile customers were not looking to take on hardcore gamers, (or even gamers!) those guys are already playing.

    Hardcore gamers were there from the first, but they were not the only player base and it is a category that can be misleading. I never expected MMOs to be as hard as what I demanded from shooters for example, indeed when I played my first MMO I was not convinced PvP should be in MMOs.

    The history of MMO gaming has been companies chasing an ever larger player base, be it PC solo RPG fans, console solo RPG fans, mobile phone users who do not game. This is what has changed MMOs into a new genre and leads gaming down an every more easymode direction. Now you may well be asking, is that such a big problem, is easymode so bad?

    Let me give you a sports example, what do you think the effect of the Olympics is on sport? It makes sport strive to be the best. That's what gaming can aspire to but it has become just a walk in the park...PING!
    Post edited by Scot on
    GdemamiAlBQuirky

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  • waipowrectdeapr1976waipowrectdeapr1976 Member CommonPosts: 8
    Whether we like it or not, Video games are a business. The companies must find what's the best in order to make sales. So if they need to make the games easier, in order to achieve their financial goals, they will.

    AlBQuirky
  • GroqstrongGroqstrong Member UncommonPosts: 179
    edited September 2018
    Honestly are hardcore games even feasible today?  I mean back in the day 1 level near max cap could take 1 month of grinding xp and you needed a group to do it proper.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member RarePosts: 4,822
    edited September 2018
    Honestly are hardcore games even feasible today?  I mean back in the day 1 level near max cap could take 1 month of grinding xp and you needed a group to do it proper.
    That totally depends on the developers and publishers. If they're looking to make mega-millions in the first month, not feasible. If they're not looking to buy all department heads new yachts, very feasible.

    If it is a game in a stable full of hundreds of differing games, very feasible, as the company is not riding on this one game alone. I've heard "Dark Souls" (never played it myself) is supposed to be "the new standard" of difficult. I believe it sold quite well.

    [On Topic]
    What I think about when I see the term "Hardcore Gamer" is that person who dissects a game, figures the maximum effectiveness by numbers, and beats every game they play, never to play it again. There are always more games to dissect and play with the math on the horizon. The "fun" for them is figuring out nuts and bolts.

    Therefor, hardcore gamers will always exist, by my definition ;)
    Sovrath

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • Muppetrat123Muppetrat123 Member CommonPosts: 6
    Hardcore games can't last long as normally people will only wanna play games for fun :)
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