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Pantheon Paladin - First Game Play

SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,171
I didn't seem to see this here so here it is:


This is a streamer by the name of Saicred

Just started watching it myself.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
maskedweaseljimmywolf[Deleted User]
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Comments

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Its been about eight to ten years since I took a weeks vacation for a mmrpg release and this is gonna be one of them. 

    Well, maybe the second week, I'm expecting a rocky release. 

    Love it !
    Sovrath
  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    Yeah this game is totally too complicated to multi-box *cough*
    [Deleted User]Octagon7711Kyleran
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,230
    Yeah this game is totally too complicated to multi-box *cough*
    You know this is the starter dungeon, right?
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    Yeah this game is totally too complicated to multi-box *cough*
    So you think you can do better alone than 6 actual people who wiped 4 times?
    Go ahead.
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    DMKano said:
    Yeah this game is totally too complicated to multi-box *cough*
    ehm - I 3boxed EQ1 - can easily do the same here.

    I don't see any reason why Pantheon can't be boxed yet.
    I believe he was sarcastic (hint the cough at the end f the sentence).
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    I see a couple things that says same old all over again and ideas i don't like because they have ALWAYS handcuffed combat.
    First of all THREE sec taunt,are you serious,geesh this is the same crap the EQ team were doing before,abilities/timers are TOO SHORT.

    WRATH..generating stuff like this to be able to perform other abilities is just bad,it locks down what you can do to a simple math equation that sums up the resulting combat before it is even started.
    This was the same mistakes that Eric guy did with his f2p/donation mmorpg.

    Here is a VERY simple hint as to how it SHOULD be done...

    HATE meters,your combat is not handcuffed but if you get over zealous you draw hate from the Tank causing problems.You do NOT limit to the exact amount what a class can do with added bars.It is fine to use bars on mages for many reasons,one of which mez nuke,mez nuke rinse repeat game exploited but there are other reasons.
    You DON'T do it with melee classes...this just ruins ANY hope i had that brad has learned something,his team has learned something,how about simply calling this EQ3 or VG 2.0.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • sakersaker Member RarePosts: 1,458
    DMKano said:
    Yeah this game is totally too complicated to multi-box *cough*
    ehm - I 3boxed EQ1 - can easily do the same here.

    I don't see any reason why Pantheon can't be boxed yet.

    no good game ever requires "boxing", and it makes baby jezuz cry
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,030
    DMKano said:
    saker said:
    DMKano said:
    Yeah this game is totally too complicated to multi-box *cough*
    ehm - I 3boxed EQ1 - can easily do the same here.

    I don't see any reason why Pantheon can't be boxed yet.

    no good game ever requires "boxing", and it makes baby jezuz cry

    Not saying it requires it - just saying it's easily doable from the gameplay shown so far
    Yeah, not impressed at all. 
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    Torval said:
    Dear Pantheon and Star Citizen. There is a reason AAA studios don't show a game off until it's ready. It forms an impression.

    Yeah, they'll never get the message and probably don't care. It doesn't look very good to be honest. Body pulling one mob without chained aggro, ugh. Not to mention the noise from downstairs should have alerted everyone. They're wearing freaking mail. It's like being a walking clanking toolbox. Not stealthy.

    Let's say they've not yet implemented more advanced AI scripting yet (no chain aggro, no smart detection for loud events like battles). It still doesn't look good. It looks like a Unity game both visually and mechanically. I don't think that's a plus. So far I haven't seen Unity be a good fit for large concurrent multiplayer. I've seen the opposite. It scales poorly. Maybe this team can code their way around that, but I'm skeptical.
    Mhhhh...You are not saying anything wrong.
    However.
    Pantheon in particular is not meant to be innovative.
    In fact it unashamedly aspire to be the real EQ successor, which means keeping the core mechanics of EQ.

    One of those mechanics was the ability to single pull mobs, the challenge in this particular feature is trying to avoid getting aggro from the mobs nearby.
    Sure mobs aren't linked together, and I agree it is not realistic, but the player can still aggro other mobs by getting too close.
    And in Pantheon, like EQ, even getting one Add is a big problem, since trash mobs are much harder to kill and deal unreal DPS compared to other games.
    Getting 3-4 Adds would mean a certain wipe, even with a Mezzer in group (as you can see from the video).

    So having mobs linked together won't work too well for this particular mechanics, because in order to make it viable they'd have to nerf the mobs, defeating the point of having a more challenging gameplay.

    In Pantheon wipes will be the norm, not the exception.
    Getting 3 adds instead of 2, it's the difference between life and death, I am not sure I want 5 (weaker) linked adds just because it looks more realistic.

    EQ had roles that no other MMO had (Maybe vanilla wow):
    1) The Puller (Monk)
    2) The Tank (Warrior)
    3) The Healer (Cleric)
    4) The Buffer/Utility (Bard/Shaman/Druid)
    5) The Crowd Controller (Enchanter/Bard)
    6) The DPS (Mage)

    To be honest I do not care about an advanced AI at all, I care that the group dynamic described above stays exactly the same.
    By implementing your suggestions, that would outright eliminate the Puller role.
    And if we add other 'modern' features we can easily eliminate Crowd Control and Buffers too, which is exactly what modern MMOs did, and that's why I don't like them as much as older MMORPGs.

    When people says EQ had better mechanics for group play, that's what they mean.
    I know that many, including you, think this is actually worse, but that's the kind of gameplay Old Schoolers are looking for and no other modern MMO can offer.
    jimmywolf
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  • jimmywolfjimmywolf Member UncommonPosts: 292
    @ blueturtle13

    your not saying anything wrong and i agree to a point but your forgetting cost versus return. look how far game came from arti pixels and what do people say about games now ? whats next, give of us bigger  better worlds and for less cost.


    even if they made a game far more advance then anything we seen till now the majority would just get bored and  say ok, whats next?


    so they focus on cost versus return, what can they make with time they have. a perfect example of overselling an trying make they next big thing is  stonehearth.  https://www.stonehearth.net/


    i backed that game on KS day 1, they made a lot of promises here  KS page to show were it started. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1590639245/stonehearth


    then they ran out money and time an said sorry here they best we can do enjoy are great game as is....


    so it not hard to dream, want or criticizes why are they just making a new wheel versus a car but i am least atm looking forward to a EQ 2.0 even if it not the next best thing. maybe when technology makes coding and back end things easier will get more complex detail worlds with better ai. 




  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    Torval said:
    Yes, I understand that. I don't think it will work out well in the end just because those are the crude aspects of early design that should be polished. I think those design choices will end up biting them. It's too familiar and predictable. I think gamers want the philosophy that went into early MMO design, but they don't want to play the exact same game and pay for it.

    Coupled with Unity for an engine, I think players will not find the premium experience they're expecting. Core fans will overlook that, everyone else probably won't. Then again, for those that want EQ replicated this may be as good as it gets.
    I totally agree with you here, @Torval.  Pantheon will be a solid rendition of EQ with modern graphics while avoiding stepping on the EQ IP.  Beta testing doesn't really allow many new additions to a game, those improvements have usually been implemented.  A beta test is to refine what has been designed and coded.  So, I don't think we will magically see any change to the 6 people against 1 active mob that we played in EQ1.

    I'm less particular about the engine VR is using, and the graphics quality are okay for my admittedly feeble vision.  That isn't going to be a draw for people used to superior graphics found in current FPS games, even from consoles.  The graphics may make EQ1 vets giddy, but what I've seen is on par with other games like Rift.

    Performance of the graphics engine, if it is sub-par, it will kill this game.  Playing a 'leisurely' game like an EQ1 clone can be tolerated.  Playing that game with lag, either server-side or client-side will challenge the tolerance level of most current players.



    [Deleted User]

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    These guys are DesignOsaurs. I get that there are a few thousand people around that will play this for a time but they are creating a title that has already been made. More than once. This does nothing to further the genre and in fact it puts it a step back. (or two) 
    It is a cheaply made nostalgia project for rearview mirror players. 
    Unity is perhaps the worst engine for a full scale mmorpg. It is used because they have no budget.

    I keep reading that people want a 'world' and 'challenge' and all these other buzz words from 25 years ago but Pantheon does and shows nothing to say they are creating that. 
    What challenge? Taking 10 minutes to kill three mobs? Yawn. That is not challenge. That is a dated game design created to combat the slow internet connection and networking we all had in the 90's
    What is a living world? life cycles of the ecosystem? well they don't have one. Weather creating dynamic havoc? Not happening. Erosion changing the landscape? Not here. A.I. that actually adapts and regroups? Not this game. 
    Pantheon is just a paperdoll set with a static cut out world where you play wack a mole. If a game like this is considered the future of mmorpgs I say let the genre die. 
    This game is basic. Just basic. I know this all sounds harsh and I am not saying there is anything wrong with people wanting to play it and being excited about playing it but I think people are overselling it a bit....er...a lot. 

    I know I am not the target audience as I played Lineage and Asheron's Call and never liked EQ but come on guys...How many games have to be oversold and over hyped before gamers understand that to move forward you have to make changes. 
    I wish I had been the first to use the term 'DesignOsaurs'.  Much respect, @blueturtle13.  That conveys this project and it's philosophy.

    Your comments about the stagnation of the MMORPG genre are right on target.  If nothing new is tried, nothing changes.



    [Deleted User]

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member RarePosts: 620
    edited September 2018
    Torval said:
    Dear Pantheon and Star Citizen. There is a reason AAA studios don't show a game off until it's ready. It forms an impression.

    Yeah, they'll never get the message and probably don't care. It doesn't look very good to be honest. Body pulling one mob without chained aggro, ugh. Not to mention the noise from downstairs should have alerted everyone. They're wearing freaking mail. It's like being a walking clanking toolbox. Not stealthy.

    Let's say they've not yet implemented more advanced AI scripting yet (no chain aggro, no smart detection for loud events like battles). It still doesn't look good. It looks like a Unity game both visually and mechanically. I don't think that's a plus. So far I haven't seen Unity be a good fit for large concurrent multiplayer. I've seen the opposite. It scales poorly. Maybe this team can code their way around that, but I'm skeptical.
    Social aggro in original everquest varied from zone to zone and mob to mob:
    https://wiki.project1999.com/Zentile's_P99_Monk_Pulling_Guide

    So it was possible for "everyone" to be alerted, even an entire zone.

    I've played several modern MMO's and I've never seen one with realistic aggro. And because mobs are frequently rubberbanded back to their spawn point or don't have proximity aggro, there're next to no consequences.

    The skill in Everquest combat wasn't hte combat itself, like blocking or chaining abilities tactical maneuvers, but managing all parts of the game. A large part of the gameplay was watching for potential adds and managing them as a group. Not getting lost--and hence killed--was important too which might occasionally happen if you were a puller or the group was close to wiping and everyone flees. You were very focused on the environment around you. You didn't wnat to overextend. The consequences for losing a fight were high in original EQ. So there was a very real tension which built up in combat. This made expectations higher between players. It meant more communication.

    Something many people missed--and I missed too--is how interdependent EQ was in its systems. One of hte reasons the core combat system was automatic was to allow players to chat during fights. At the time voice chat was very limited and not commonly used. In modern MMO's, voice chat has enabled fights to be much more action-oriented, or otherwise less automatic. Also the tendency for soloing to be popular has had an influence because it removes the need for communication. And keep in mind automatic combat in EQ1 didn't mean players had nothing to do. I outlined above how hte environment and working together was very important to success. Over the years, accumulating hotkeyed abilities made EQ1 combat less and less automatic.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • ceratop001ceratop001 Member RarePosts: 1,594
    Games are mutual and we support each other. Existence is a function of relationship. This is 2018. This game could of been popular many many years ago.
    svannOctagon7711
     
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  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 546
    edited September 2018
    You know how you can tell how little someone knows about a topic by the things they say or ask?

    There's a lot of that in this thread.

    To paraphrase some examples (criticisms) from this thread (and others):

    "Pantheon is designed around a more old-school playstyle that is highly group-centric, which is out of place in the modern MMO scene".
    Yes, we know. It's why we're following and/or backing it.

    "Combat in Pantheon is slow and fights take longer, even with a full group, unlike like in modern MMOs."
    Yes, we know. It's why we're following and/or backing it.

    "Pantheon won't pull in large player numbers that modern MMOs are designed to"
    Yes, we know. It's why we're following and/or backing it.
    Brad himself has gone on record, multiple times, at length, about this very thing explaining that they *know* Pantheon is a niche game, catering to an extant portion of the community who have longed for this kind of game, and have found viable options lacking. It's one of the main reasons they're developing it... to cater to a significant demographic that has been neglected for the past decade or so.

    And on and on.

    You'd *think* people who find Pantheon uninteresting would simply move on and find a game that does interest them. Not like there's literally dozens of other options on this very site to choose from. Instead, they swoop into the forums to share their "expert insights" on a game they demonstrably know nothing about.

    Reading these criticisms and "expert insights" reminds me of a line from a Porcupine Tree song, "Anesthetize":
    "I'm saying nothing. But I'm saying nothing with feel". 
    Post edited by QuarterStack on
    [Deleted User]TEKK3NWellspringSensaiKyleran
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 546
    edited September 2018
    I agree with you on what you believe because, well, you believe it.
     Yet does not FF14 offer the same thing already? Yet one that has a huge budget? With millions of players? That looks better and plays better with a huge amount of content?

    No way. FFXIV is not even close to the old-school style of gameplay Pantheon is going for. XIV is as "modern, linear and hyper casual themepark" as you can get. Maybe you're thinking of FFXI, which isn't even close to the game it used to be. It's some weird bastardized version of an old-school game with "modern conveniences" awkwardly shoe-horned in.

    For EQ1 players this is, I am sure, a dream come true. For the rest of us it is just 'Familiarity Breeds Contempt' project.
    Well, good news for you, then. VR is designing a very cool feature into Pantheon... They're making it 100% optional to play.

    It's true!

    If Pantheon doesn't interest you, or "breeds contempt"... you don't have to play it.  You can play something else that doesn't 'breed contempt' in you instead!

    Pretty cool huh? They're really thinking of everyone. A swell bunch those VR folks are.

    I know it's a crazy, revolutionary concept, especially these days when it's assumed that every MMO must be designed to cater to everyone... but there you go.

    Sarcasm aside... that phrase.. "familarity breeds contempt project" just says so much of what I'm talking about. If Pantheon's design makes you feel "contemptuous" towards it.. then just don't follow or play it.  Forget it exists. It's really that simple. This isn't brain surgery.
    svannTEKK3N
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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,803
    Rhoklaw said:
    People complain about innovation and people complain about stagnation. You're always right because only YOU know what you like in a game. You talk about this development team being designosaurs, but what have we seen in the past 5 years? Absolutely nothing other then several copycat Asian F2P PvP + cash shop crap games. In my opinion, taking a step back to the "old skool" games is actually a BETTER approach to game design.

    I'm sure Pantheon will satisfy the old veteran crowd that enjoy trinity style combat. Not everyone enjoys AoC style twitch combat.

    I agree with you on what you believe because, well, you believe it.
     Yet does not FF14 offer the same thing already? Yet one that has a huge budget? With millions of players? That looks better and plays better with a huge amount of content?

    What have we seen in the last 5 years? Minimmos. (pronounced mini mo's) 

    Dark and Light, Citadel, Conan Exiles are just three of a sea of examples of games trying to offer a narrow focused  version of a more modern mmo. As engine tech advances we will see these expanded. Allowing users more control over their servers. Ala NWN (Bioware) and Aria. 

    The point is that games like Pantheon are being made to cater to fans of Everquest 1.
     That's it. One game. 

    Not Asheron's Call, Not SWG, Not Meridian (which is now on Steam!) Not Ultima Online, Not Lineage, Not NWN Aol, Not Runescape...etc.... 


    I get why EQ1 players are excited for a game like this but don't fool yourself into thinking this is what the many, when it is just a few, old school (whatever that means) mmorpg players want. MOST older gen mmorpgs were not trinity games. 

    For EQ1 players this is, I am sure, a dream come true. For the rest of us it is just 'Familiarity Breeds Contempt' project.
    While there are quite a few of us that played EQ1 here, many have also moved on from it......It was great in it its time, and there are things from it we wouldn't mind seeing again, but even so we don't want a duplicate of it....From all the vids I have seen of Pantheon it looks like very boring EQ....THere has to be a way to improve on the EQ1 eperience but make it ina 2018 setting.....THis game will immediately turn away all but the most hardcore EQ fans, and I am not sure how many of those are even left.
    jimmywolfMendel[Deleted User]
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  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    Torval said:
    Yes, I understand that. I don't think it will work out well in the end just because those are the crude aspects of early design that should be polished. I think those design choices will end up biting them. It's too familiar and predictable. I think gamers want the philosophy that went into early MMO design, but they don't want to play the exact same game and pay for it.

    Coupled with Unity for an engine, I think players will not find the premium experience they're expecting. Core fans will overlook that, everyone else probably won't. Then again, for those that want EQ replicated this may be as good as it gets.
    I kind of agree with you.

    But to be fair, I think we are forgetting that Pantheon is a true Indie game, nowhere near Star Citizen budget.
    I am sure people expect it to be a bit rough on the edges, I don't think they are expecting a "premium experience", I'm certainly not.
    Unity is not a MMORPG engine, but unlike SotA, VR heavily modified it.
    So I don't think anyone is expecting Unreal engine performances, though I am sure that it would do a decent job (due to the modifications).

    I thinks it's all down to expectations.
    My expectations for Star Citizens are far higher than Pantheon.
    If Pantheon had a $200 Million budget, than I would agree that the game looks pretty poor.
    But for the resources they have, they've done miracles IMO (Remember they didn't even raised kickstarter money, people forget that).
    Sovrathjimmywolf
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    Rhoklaw said:

    Why a sizable group of fans of MMOs should be forced to play what the popular kids like?

    Good question.
    Does anyone have the answer?
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