They aren't "milking" anybody. They aren't running monthly promo sales like CoE of Star Citizen. Want to buy some cosmetic castles for your personal server? Cool, go ahead. Otherwise, there really isn't much to "buy" except more alt account access, and there isn't any push by the Devs to have people do that.
The vast majority of their funding is and has come from investment and licensing.
I know it is popular to compare this with games like Star Citizen but it is so different and nothing at all alike.
Taking forever for this game to come out?
They expanded scope so as to make a better game because they unexpectedly came into more investment funding than they predicted.
Sorry, what should we tell them - "hey I see you are going to make a better game than you were originally because now you have more funding. Please stop. I would prefer you make a shittier game that will release earlier so I can complain sooner and quit playing on my original target quitting date. Making a better game doesn't help any of us who would rather just shitpost and don't actually play the game."
I have an Amber KS package and some unusable number of castles, keeps and forts. I have no problem personally with them having delayed the game because "They expanded the scope so as to make a better game because they unexpectedly came into more investment funding than they predicted".
That said, any game that delays it's release by YEARS should offer refunds to those that do not want to wait. That's not shitposting. That's simply fair. I do not know if CF still offers refunds, but if not, they should.
The simple principle is that if a company decides on its own to change the scope/technology/whatever in a game knowing it will cause years of delays, that the customer should have an opt out. That also shuts down all criticism about the delays because there is nothing to complain about if you can get your money back. This is what CU has done and it's a major reason they do not catch a lot of flack (in comparison to their peers) for the delays.
This isn't about legality. It's just about doing what is right. This is true for games I like (such as Crowfall) and also games I don't.
If Crowfall had expanded its scope in a grandiose, unrealistic way, as Star Citizen did, then I would agree with you. However, the scope changes in Crowfall have essentially amounted to just uncutting corners that were initially meant to be cut (like race & gender locked classes, which they had called archetypes to justify the mediocrity of it all). The situation with Crowfall was that the initial pitch offered the core of a game with many cut corners, and now they are in a position to put those very basic, generally expected corners back.
Well there are apparently 2 very different stories then...
The game was originally planned to release Dec 2016. Its now Aug 2018. Per the post above it's another 18-24 months to "soft launch" That puts us 4 years behind schedule.
The earlier poster said it was because "They expanded the scope so as to make a better game because they unexpectedly came into more investment funding than they predicted"
Those are a LOT of corners being uncut to take an extra 4 years... Heck. That's a lot of corners being uncut just to get us to this point which is pretty much double the development timeline.
Again, personally, I am OK with it as I'd like this to be a complete and FUN game. But to be fair to people that put money in, they should really offer refunds because not everyone asked them to uncut the corners and spend an additional 4 years on the project...
Wait, wait wait Slap...I was the poster above who said 18-24 months and it is not in any way an official date.
There has been several threads the past months when some people who are currently testing the game would give their opinion the game likely would need 18-24 months to be really ready for prime time which some agreed and said its been at that point since the first launch date passed.
In my recent race to 2019 poll some folks doubted CF would make it to full release, instead estimating some time in 2020, which would put it....18-24 months out.
I even found thread from over a year ago with the same 18-24 month estimate which seems to be the standard or something.
So when this article announced the addition of several core and complicated systems to test for the first time..(a bit late IMO) it just felt like we were back to what has now become my tongue in cheek response for the schedule.
Didn't mean to mislead anyone, I'll have to remember to add some extra winking emoticons when I'm poking fun or being facetious.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They aren't "milking" anybody. They aren't running monthly promo sales like CoE of Star Citizen. Want to buy some cosmetic castles for your personal server? Cool, go ahead. Otherwise, there really isn't much to "buy" except more alt account access, and there isn't any push by the Devs to have people do that.
The vast majority of their funding is and has come from investment and licensing.
I know it is popular to compare this with games like Star Citizen but it is so different and nothing at all alike.
Taking forever for this game to come out?
They expanded scope so as to make a better game because they unexpectedly came into more investment funding than they predicted.
Sorry, what should we tell them - "hey I see you are going to make a better game than you were originally because now you have more funding. Please stop. I would prefer you make a shittier game that will release earlier so I can complain sooner and quit playing on my original target quitting date. Making a better game doesn't help any of us who would rather just shitpost and don't actually play the game."
I have an Amber KS package and some unusable number of castles, keeps and forts. I have no problem personally with them having delayed the game because "They expanded the scope so as to make a better game because they unexpectedly came into more investment funding than they predicted".
That said, any game that delays it's release by YEARS should offer refunds to those that do not want to wait. That's not shitposting. That's simply fair. I do not know if CF still offers refunds, but if not, they should.
The simple principle is that if a company decides on its own to change the scope/technology/whatever in a game knowing it will cause years of delays, that the customer should have an opt out. That also shuts down all criticism about the delays because there is nothing to complain about if you can get your money back. This is what CU has done and it's a major reason they do not catch a lot of flack (in comparison to their peers) for the delays.
This isn't about legality. It's just about doing what is right. This is true for games I like (such as Crowfall) and also games I don't.
If Crowfall had expanded its scope in a grandiose, unrealistic way, as Star Citizen did, then I would agree with you. However, the scope changes in Crowfall have essentially amounted to just uncutting corners that were initially meant to be cut (like race & gender locked classes, which they had called archetypes to justify the mediocrity of it all). The situation with Crowfall was that the initial pitch offered the core of a game with many cut corners, and now they are in a position to put those very basic, generally expected corners back.
Well there are apparently 2 very different stories then...
The game was originally planned to release Dec 2016. Its now Aug 2018. Per the post above it's another 18-24 months to "soft launch" That puts us 4 years behind schedule.
The earlier poster said it was because "They expanded the scope so as to make a better game because they unexpectedly came into more investment funding than they predicted"
Those are a LOT of corners being uncut to take an extra 4 years... Heck. That's a lot of corners being uncut just to get us to this point which is pretty much double the development timeline.
Again, personally, I am OK with it as I'd like this to be a complete and FUN game. But to be fair to people that put money in, they should really offer refunds because not everyone asked them to uncut the corners and spend an additional 4 years on the project...
Wait, wait wait Slap...I was the poster above who said 18-24 months and it is not in any way an official date.
There has been several threads the past months when some people who are currently testing the game would give their opinion the game likely would need 18-24 months to be really ready for prime time which some agreed and said its been at that point since the first launch date passed.
In my recent race to 2019 poll some folks doubted CF would make it to full release, instead estimating some time in 2020, which would put it....18-24 months out.
I even found thread from over a year ago with the same 18-24 month estimate which seems to be the standard or something.
So when this article announced the addition of several core and complicated systems to test for the first time..(a bit late IMO) it just felt like we were back to what has now become my tongue in cheek response for the schedule.
Didn't mean to mislead anyone, I'll have to remember to add some extra winking emoticons when I'm poking fun or being facetious.
Sorry- I didn't watch the video as I just can't sit and watch people talk about games. When nobody corrected the timeline (after I asked) I figured it was mentioned in the video.
The point still stands though. Either way, we are talking about multiple years behind. And again.. having seen the game in 2016, 2017 and now... it needs the time. But folks that complain have a legitimate concern and should not be casually tossed aside as "shitposters".
Edit to add: There is no doubt that delaying was needed. There is a right way... and a wrong way to delay. The burden should be on the folks that caused the delay, not the customers. See Camelot Unchained.
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Every time someone uses the defense, all MMOs are late and never hit their dates I'm a bit taken aback when people aren't more angry.
They in fact defend devs who either blatantly lied about their release dates, or unilaterally changed the terms of the agreement to make a "better" game (with no refunds) or who are clearly in over their heads.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Besides trusted traders covering the older pledges, they are refunding case-by-case, tho I agree that, ideally, they should have no-questions-asked refunds; otherwise you pay to get X in 2017, and get Y in 2020.
On the other side, Mark Jacobs (needless to say, of Camelot Unchained) explained how their no-questions-asked refund policy actually looks from "the other side". Besides hurting him a lot financially, it constantly eats his time and energy since he is the one processing requests (small team and yadda).
To make it worse, there is lots of new players abusing it just to check the game quickly. I guess it's one of the main reasons for their NDA and low profile, something that Crowfall couldn't really afford due to the different financial structure of their project (I'll skip the details for now, I gues you know it).
Besides trusted traders covering the older pledges, they are refunding case-by-case, tho I agree that, ideally, they should have no-questions-asked refunds; otherwise you pay to get X in 2017, and get Y in 2020.
On the other side, Mark Jacobs (needless to say, of Camelot Unchained) explained how their no-questions-asked refund policy actually looks from "the other side". Besides hurting him a lot financially, it constantly eats his time and energy since he is the one processing requests (small team and yadda).
To make it worse, there is lots of new players abusing it just to check the game quickly. I guess it's one of the main reasons for their NDA and low profile, something that Crowfall couldn't really afford due to the different financial structure of their project (I'll skip the details for now, I gues you know it).
Did he say it hurt him a lot financially? From what I recall it was a really low number last I heard.. single digit percentages. (See below). Yes, it takes a lot of his time but in general, a task like that shouldn't be handled by the CEO. You gotta do what you gotta do I guess, but I'd pay someone a few hours a week to take that off my plate if I were him.
I went and found the numbers. 3.6% as of a month ago.
I think most folks are fine with giving time. It's just fundamentally fairer to let them out if the massive delays are caused by the developer. Plus I think it's an incentive to pledge. I'd wager that they gained more than 3.6% of sales just because people feel comfortable that they could get their money back in a worst case scenario. I'm even fine with MJ canceling the refunds... as long as he stays reasonably close to his ETAs going forward.
Good to hear that they (Artcraft) are offing refunds. That makes me feel better.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Besides trusted traders covering the older pledges, they are refunding case-by-case, tho I agree that, ideally, they should have no-questions-asked refunds; otherwise you pay to get X in 2017, and get Y in 2020.
On the other side, Mark Jacobs (needless to say, of Camelot Unchained) explained how their no-questions-asked refund policy actually looks from "the other side". Besides hurting him a lot financially, it constantly eats his time and energy since he is the one processing requests (small team and yadda).
To make it worse, there is lots of new players abusing it just to check the game quickly. I guess it's one of the main reasons for their NDA and low profile, something that Crowfall couldn't really afford due to the different financial structure of their project (I'll skip the details for now, I gues you know it).
Hmm, until recently Mark claimed the refund request rate was fairly low, perhaps its a greater issue with those I saw recently bought in to try the beta 1?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Besides trusted traders covering the older pledges, they are refunding case-by-case, tho I agree that, ideally, they should have no-questions-asked refunds; otherwise you pay to get X in 2017, and get Y in 2020.
On the other side, Mark Jacobs (needless to say, of Camelot Unchained) explained how their no-questions-asked refund policy actually looks from "the other side". Besides hurting him a lot financially, it constantly eats his time and energy since he is the one processing requests (small team and yadda).
To make it worse, there is lots of new players abusing it just to check the game quickly. I guess it's one of the main reasons for their NDA and low profile, something that Crowfall couldn't really afford due to the different financial structure of their project (I'll skip the details for now, I gues you know it).
Did he say it hurt him a lot financially? From what I recall it was a really low number last I heard.. single digit percentages. (See below). Yes, it takes a lot of his time but in general, a task like that shouldn't be handled by the CEO. You gotta do what you gotta do I guess, but I'd pay someone a few hours a week to take that off my plate if I were him.
I went and found the numbers. 3.6% as of a month ago.
I think most folks are fine with giving time. It's just fundamentally fairer to let them out if the massive delays are caused by the developer. Plus I think it's an incentive to pledge. I'd wager that they gained more than 3.6% of sales just because people feel comfortable that they could get their money back in a worst case scenario. I'm even fine with MJ canceling the refunds... as long as he stays reasonably close to his ETAs going forward.
Good to hear that they (Artcraft) are offing refunds. That makes me feel better.
Over last years, mark made a number of side remarks about new players abusing the policy; He sounded fed up, and without knowing the numbers it seemed natural to me that the percentage would be much higher than a mere 3.8% - now that's interesting, and you might have a point there.
Anyway, I believe that Crowfall would likely have much higher percentage (due to CU's low profile and financials etc. as mentioned above), furthermore potentially applied to much higher number of accounts- namely, they have 275k registered accounts so far, compared to CU's, I'd say, ~30k. Atop all that we'd have to ask Mark is it really only a couple hours weekly, it might be one of those things that look deceptively easy before one actually starts doing it.
Again I agree that Crowfall should do it, ideally. I'm just trying to illustrate how it looks from the other side, knowing just a part of reasons ACE might have.
Every time someone uses the defense, all MMOs are late and never hit their dates I'm a bit taken aback when people aren't more angry.
They in fact defend devs who either blatantly lied about their release dates, or unilaterally changed the terms of the agreement to make a "better" game (with no refunds) or who are clearly in over their heads.
Weird.
I give them a pass because it's really hard to predict the future. I work as a programmer, though on business software, and it can be extremely difficult to give accurate estimates. If I know exactly what I need to do, sure, it's pretty simple, but there are often unknowns that will take a variable amount of time to work out. And there are always, always additional requirements. Stuff that I have to do out of necessity to ensure the users can't break the code and stuff that the users never told me about.
MMOs are huge projects with lots of unknowns, even for devs who have made lots of games before. They also have a lot of users they are trying to satisfy.
So yes, when they miss their dates, I understand it. There is a limit of course, but I've seen the progress and I'm not at all worried that they won't complete the game. I'm enjoying the game now so I'm not in any hurry to have it released.
Every time someone uses the defense, all MMOs are late and never hit their dates I'm a bit taken aback when people aren't more angry.
They in fact defend devs who either blatantly lied about their release dates, or unilaterally changed the terms of the agreement to make a "better" game (with no refunds) or who are clearly in over their heads.
Weird.
I give them a pass because it's really hard to predict the future. I work as a programmer, though on business software, and it can be extremely difficult to give accurate estimates. If I know exactly what I need to do, sure, it's pretty simple, but there are often unknowns that will take a variable amount of time to work out. And there are always, always additional requirements. Stuff that I have to do out of necessity to ensure the users can't break the code and stuff that the users never told me about.
MMOs are huge projects with lots of unknowns, even for devs who have made lots of games before. They also have a lot of users they are trying to satisfy.
So yes, when they miss their dates, I understand it. There is a limit of course, but I've seen the progress and I'm not at all worried that they won't complete the game. I'm enjoying the game now so I'm not in any hurry to have it released.
The two statements are not compatible.
1. "All MMOs are late and never hit their dates" 2. "it's really hard to predict the future"
It's actually really easy to predict the future based on #1, and I would expect people with experience in the industry to know that. If you know it, and I know it, then THEY KNOW it as well.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Every time someone uses the defense, all MMOs are late and never hit their dates I'm a bit taken aback when people aren't more angry.
They in fact defend devs who either blatantly lied about their release dates, or unilaterally changed the terms of the agreement to make a "better" game (with no refunds) or who are clearly in over their heads.
Weird.
I give them a pass because it's really hard to predict the future. I work as a programmer, though on business software, and it can be extremely difficult to give accurate estimates. If I know exactly what I need to do, sure, it's pretty simple, but there are often unknowns that will take a variable amount of time to work out. And there are always, always additional requirements. Stuff that I have to do out of necessity to ensure the users can't break the code and stuff that the users never told me about.
MMOs are huge projects with lots of unknowns, even for devs who have made lots of games before. They also have a lot of users they are trying to satisfy.
So yes, when they miss their dates, I understand it. There is a limit of course, but I've seen the progress and I'm not at all worried that they won't complete the game. I'm enjoying the game now so I'm not in any hurry to have it released.
The two statements are not compatible.
1. "All MMOs are late and never hit their dates" 2. "it's really hard to predict the future"
It's actually really easy to predict the future based on #1, and I would expect people with experience in the industry to know that. If you know it, and I know it, then THEY KNOW it as well.
Which means anyone who understands this would simply take any given date with a truckload of salt.
Every time someone uses the defense, all MMOs are late and never hit their dates I'm a bit taken aback when people aren't more angry.
They in fact defend devs who either blatantly lied about their release dates, or unilaterally changed the terms of the agreement to make a "better" game (with no refunds) or who are clearly in over their heads.
Weird.
I give them a pass because it's really hard to predict the future. I work as a programmer, though on business software, and it can be extremely difficult to give accurate estimates. If I know exactly what I need to do, sure, it's pretty simple, but there are often unknowns that will take a variable amount of time to work out. And there are always, always additional requirements. Stuff that I have to do out of necessity to ensure the users can't break the code and stuff that the users never told me about.
MMOs are huge projects with lots of unknowns, even for devs who have made lots of games before. They also have a lot of users they are trying to satisfy.
So yes, when they miss their dates, I understand it. There is a limit of course, but I've seen the progress and I'm not at all worried that they won't complete the game. I'm enjoying the game now so I'm not in any hurry to have it released.
The two statements are not compatible.
1. "All MMOs are late and never hit their dates" 2. "it's really hard to predict the future"
It's actually really easy to predict the future based on #1, and I would expect people with experience in the industry to know that. If you know it, and I know it, then THEY KNOW it as well.
Which means anyone who understands this would simply take any given date with a truckload of salt.
Every time someone uses the defense, all MMOs are late and never hit their dates I'm a bit taken aback when people aren't more angry.
They in fact defend devs who either blatantly lied about their release dates, or unilaterally changed the terms of the agreement to make a "better" game (with no refunds) or who are clearly in over their heads.
Weird.
End of the day, players just want a good game, even if they knew there was no way they would meet those deadlines, that's all that counts.
Every time someone uses the defense, all MMOs are late and never hit their dates I'm a bit taken aback when people aren't more angry.
They in fact defend devs who either blatantly lied about their release dates, or unilaterally changed the terms of the agreement to make a "better" game (with no refunds) or who are clearly in over their heads.
Weird.
End of the day, players just want a good game, even if they knew there was no way they would meet those deadlines, that's all that counts.
Not so sure about that. It goes back to the age old question: Do the ends justify the means?
Either way... we've been told that they are giving refunds so to me that greatly alleviates the delay issue in my mind. Its when they refuse refunds that I think there is something fundamentally wrong.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I really hate trading systems for any prelaunch game. They just reek to me. I do appreciate when a studio will just provide a simple refund.
Funders abusing the system (which I think trading systems attract and encourage) is as big a concern to me as studios continually milking campaigns and timelines without accountability. This is why I think we obviously need a better crowdfunding system for these sorts of games. We need a platform of mutual accountability where studios must meet milestones and supporters can't just refund because they want to.
I do sympathize with CSE, and other projects, over refund abusers. On the other hand this is the consequence for hyping up and marketing exclusive access behind an expensive paywall. You made your bed. Let's figure out better living arrangements rather than beat each other up over it though. That's why we need a better platform, one with mutually accountability and milestones.
Thanks for expounding. I was just about to post that it would be grossly unethical and inequitable to require consumers to guarantee their money while requiring no such guarantees from the producer. If the producer can get away scot-free with the "well, we tried" defense, consumers should be able to refund scot-free with the "well, I'm tired of waiting" defense.
Every time someone uses the defense, all MMOs are late and never hit their dates I'm a bit taken aback when people aren't more angry.
They in fact defend devs who either blatantly lied about their release dates, or unilaterally changed the terms of the agreement to make a "better" game (with no refunds) or who are clearly in over their heads.
Weird.
End of the day, players just want a good game, even if they knew there was no way they would meet those deadlines, that's all that counts.
Not so sure about that. It goes back to the age old question: Do the ends justify the means?
Either way... we've been told that they are giving refunds so to me that greatly alleviates the delay issue in my mind. Its when they refuse refunds that I think there is something fundamentally wrong.
Oh yeah, I don't disagree there. As part of being a crowdfunded project in fact I feel that should be written into the agreement as legally binding in fact.
You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, least of all with other people's money.
Well....unless you're a bank or on wall street that is.
I have no idea what exactly is ACE's criteria and refund percentage, IIRC @Rhoklaw got his $1000 refunded rather quickly (in a matter of hours?), so maybe he can drop by and share his story. Problem is that we typically won't hear much from people that got their refund, while others occasionally go to forums/reddit/youtube and make lots of noise.
I tried to check ACE's terms and policies, but I got redirected to Travian Games (their Euro publisher, covering my area), and their key document is a textwall - better to say, series of textwalls with lots of unclear legal terms likely very open to further interpretations.
PS I am partly repeating myself, but we can't just ignore all the technical (+possibly financial/legal etc. we're unaware of) problems I mentioned in my previous, connected to changing policies midway and then dedicating part of a quite small team to refunding process. Otherwise, there's some risk of this turning into an abstract circlejerk of "righteous customer fury"
Every time someone uses the defense, all MMOs are late and never hit their dates I'm a bit taken aback when people aren't more angry.
They in fact defend devs who either blatantly lied about their release dates, or unilaterally changed the terms of the agreement to make a "better" game (with no refunds) or who are clearly in over their heads.
Weird.
End of the day, players just want a good game, even if they knew there was no way they would meet those deadlines, that's all that counts.
Not so sure about that. It goes back to the age old question: Do the ends justify the means?
Either way... we've been told that they are giving refunds so to me that greatly alleviates the delay issue in my mind. Its when they refuse refunds that I think there is something fundamentally wrong.
If we get a great game the ends do justify the means, they are not scamming people. For me you cross the line with no refunds not excessive delays, this is a new MMO, not a new car. But the decision as to whether we have a great game cannot be made until the real launch.
Every time someone uses the defense, all MMOs are late and never hit their dates I'm a bit taken aback when people aren't more angry.
They in fact defend devs who either blatantly lied about their release dates, or unilaterally changed the terms of the agreement to make a "better" game (with no refunds) or who are clearly in over their heads.
Weird.
End of the day, players just want a good game, even if they knew there was no way they would meet those deadlines, that's all that counts.
Not so sure about that. It goes back to the age old question: Do the ends justify the means?
Either way... we've been told that they are giving refunds so to me that greatly alleviates the delay issue in my mind. Its when they refuse refunds that I think there is something fundamentally wrong.
If we get a great game the ends do justify the means, they are not scamming people. For me you cross the line with no refunds not excessive delays, this is a new MMO, not a new car. But the decision as to whether we have a great game cannot be made until the real launch.
I'd like it to be that simple, and I'm saying this as a big Crowfall fan; The way I see it - the next best thing after no-questions-asked refunds would be to carefully consider request case by case. Based on what I klnow that's what Crowfall devs are doing, tho my knowledge is anecdotal.
Namely, there is a wide spectrum between customers who are really tired of waiting through broken deadlines and, say, "tourists" (MJ's expression) who want just to check it quickly and then get their money back, in spite of policy they signed previously.
BTW I just checked MarkeeDragon, one of Crowfall's trusted traders; he's selling "my" Kickstarter Gold for $400; original price was $175, so I guess I'd be able to earn some if I wanted to!? One thing devs should do is make people more aware of this option; say, I know it exists and still it took me some time clicking through the CF website to find it.
No sane developer puts in gates that can be camped. The stupidest, dumbest, most idiotic game design element ever!!!! That is lazy ass PVP at it's finest. I have been funding this game until now. The chances of me playing this game have shrunk drastically. I am really puzzled why a team would actually implement such a feature.
No sane developer puts in gates that can be camped. The stupidest, dumbest, most idiotic game design element ever!!!! That is lazy ass PVP at it's finest. I have been funding this game until now. The chances of me playing this game have shrunk drastically. I am really puzzled why a team would actually implement such a feature.
We'll have different paths leading to same places via different gates, plus it's all very muich work in progress; Their tech enables them to vary map structure a lot, gates included. A quote from one of devs working on Campaign maps:
It's not fun, when it's the only gate between you and your destination and you can't rally help to break the camp. We'll keep an eye on camping issues. However, camping a gate is a valid tactic to reduce support from arriving, when a keep is under siege.
The next map we have designed has multiple gates on the beachhead going to different zones (however, this can change...we haven't tested it, yet). All of the zones have at least three or more gates leading into them.
If someone on your faction lets you know that a gate is camped, you can go around the zone through other gates and then gate back towards your destination from a different direction. Your faction could choose to counter a gate camp by circling around behind them or simply continue on to your destination.
No sane developer puts in gates that can be camped. The stupidest, dumbest, most idiotic game design element ever!!!! That is lazy ass PVP at it's finest. I have been funding this game until now. The chances of me playing this game have shrunk drastically. I am really puzzled why a team would actually implement such a feature.
Gate camping is one of the more boring mechanics in EVE, perhaps 2nd only to station camping.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have yet to figure out how anyone thought that a game which kickstarted in Q1 of 2015 would be done in 2016... I bought my first package mid 2015 during Hungerdome and never saw any timeline for release before 2018 even as we prepared for the big reveal in 2017. I just don't see where any timeline was laid out by the devs that early. Any game is going to take 3-4 years or more... if you expect any less than that you would seem just plain gullible.
I have yet to figure out how anyone thought that a game which kickstarted in Q1 of 2015 would be done in 2016... I bought my first package mid 2015 during Hungerdome and never saw any timeline for release before 2018 even as we prepared for the big reveal in 2017. I just don't see where any timeline was laid out by the devs that early. Any game is going to take 3-4 years or more... if you expect any less than that you would seem just plain gullible.
That 2016 comes from Crowfall Kickstarter.
Do you think that Crowfall devs are a) just plain gullible, or b) liars?
Comments
There has been several threads the past months when some people who are currently testing the game would give their opinion the game likely would need 18-24 months to be really ready for prime time which some agreed and said its been at that point since the first launch date passed.
In my recent race to 2019 poll some folks doubted CF would make it to full release, instead estimating some time in 2020, which would put it....18-24 months out.
I even found thread from over a year ago with the same 18-24 month estimate which seems to be the standard or something.
So when this article announced the addition of several core and complicated systems to test for the first time..(a bit late IMO) it just felt like we were back to what has now become my tongue in cheek response for the schedule.
Didn't mean to mislead anyone, I'll have to remember to add some extra winking emoticons when I'm poking fun or being facetious.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The point still stands though. Either way, we are talking about multiple years behind. And again.. having seen the game in 2016, 2017 and now... it needs the time. But folks that complain have a legitimate concern and should not be casually tossed aside as "shitposters".
Edit to add: There is no doubt that delaying was needed. There is a right way... and a wrong way to delay. The burden should be on the folks that caused the delay, not the customers. See Camelot Unchained.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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They in fact defend devs who either blatantly lied about their release dates, or unilaterally changed the terms of the agreement to make a "better" game (with no refunds) or who are clearly in over their heads.
Weird.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
On the other side, Mark Jacobs (needless to say, of Camelot Unchained) explained how their no-questions-asked refund policy actually looks from "the other side". Besides hurting him a lot financially, it constantly eats his time and energy since he is the one processing requests (small team and yadda).
To make it worse, there is lots of new players abusing it just to check the game quickly. I guess it's one of the main reasons for their NDA and low profile, something that Crowfall couldn't really afford due to the different financial structure of their project (I'll skip the details for now, I gues you know it).
I went and found the numbers. 3.6% as of a month ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CamelotUnchained/comments/8v6amo/marks_refund_and_pledge_stats/
I think most folks are fine with giving time. It's just fundamentally fairer to let them out if the massive delays are caused by the developer. Plus I think it's an incentive to pledge. I'd wager that they gained more than 3.6% of sales just because people feel comfortable that they could get their money back in a worst case scenario. I'm even fine with MJ canceling the refunds... as long as he stays reasonably close to his ETAs going forward.
Good to hear that they (Artcraft) are offing refunds. That makes me feel better.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Anyway, I believe that Crowfall would likely have much higher percentage (due to CU's low profile and financials etc. as mentioned above), furthermore potentially applied to much higher number of accounts- namely, they have 275k registered accounts so far, compared to CU's, I'd say, ~30k. Atop all that we'd have to ask Mark is it really only a couple hours weekly, it might be one of those things that look deceptively easy before one actually starts doing it.
Again I agree that Crowfall should do it, ideally. I'm just trying to illustrate how it looks from the other side, knowing just a part of reasons ACE might have.
I give them a pass because it's really hard to predict the future. I work as a programmer, though on business software, and it can be extremely difficult to give accurate estimates. If I know exactly what I need to do, sure, it's pretty simple, but there are often unknowns that will take a variable amount of time to work out. And there are always, always additional requirements. Stuff that I have to do out of necessity to ensure the users can't break the code and stuff that the users never told me about.
MMOs are huge projects with lots of unknowns, even for devs who have made lots of games before. They also have a lot of users they are trying to satisfy.
So yes, when they miss their dates, I understand it. There is a limit of course, but I've seen the progress and I'm not at all worried that they won't complete the game. I'm enjoying the game now so I'm not in any hurry to have it released.
1. "All MMOs are late and never hit their dates"
2. "it's really hard to predict the future"
It's actually really easy to predict the future based on #1, and I would expect people with experience in the industry to know that. If you know it, and I know it, then THEY KNOW it as well.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Either way... we've been told that they are giving refunds so to me that greatly alleviates the delay issue in my mind. Its when they refuse refunds that I think there is something fundamentally wrong.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Oh yeah, I don't disagree there. As part of being a crowdfunded project in fact I feel that should be written into the agreement as legally binding in fact.
You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, least of all with other people's money.
Well....unless you're a bank or on wall street that is.
I tried to check ACE's terms and policies, but I got redirected to Travian Games (their Euro publisher, covering my area), and their key document is a textwall - better to say, series of textwalls with lots of unclear legal terms likely very open to further interpretations.
PS I am partly repeating myself, but we can't just ignore all the technical (+possibly financial/legal etc. we're unaware of) problems I mentioned in my previous, connected to changing policies midway and then dedicating part of a quite small team to refunding process. Otherwise, there's some risk of this turning into an abstract circlejerk of "righteous customer fury"
I'd like it to be that simple, and I'm saying this as a big Crowfall fan; The way I see it - the next best thing after no-questions-asked refunds would be to carefully consider request case by case. Based on what I klnow that's what Crowfall devs are doing, tho my knowledge is anecdotal.
Namely, there is a wide spectrum between customers who are really tired of waiting through broken deadlines and, say, "tourists" (MJ's expression) who want just to check it quickly and then get their money back, in spite of policy they signed previously.
BTW I just checked MarkeeDragon, one of Crowfall's trusted traders; he's selling "my" Kickstarter Gold for $400; original price was $175, so I guess I'd be able to earn some if I wanted to!? One thing devs should do is make people more aware of this option; say, I know it exists and still it took me some time clicking through the CF website to find it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
https://crowfall.com/en/news/articles/wolfcale-appointed-vp-of-marketing/
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The next map we have designed has multiple gates on the beachhead going to different zones (however, this can change...we haven't tested it, yet). All of the zones have at least three or more gates leading into them.
If someone on your faction lets you know that a gate is camped, you can go around the zone through other gates and then gate back towards your destination from a different direction. Your faction could choose to counter a gate camp by circling around behind them or simply continue on to your destination.
Source (there's more info in other comments) - https://community.crowfall.com/topic/22253-the-clusterizer-official-discussion-thread/
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Do you think that Crowfall devs are
a) just plain gullible, or
b) liars?